How to have a real discussion with my BF?

[Isa_lala]

After experiencing 3 years of a roller coaster with my non-diagnosed BPD BF I am at one point where I need something to happen in our chaotic relationship or I end it up.

I truly love my BF but I cannot live this way anymore. This is MY limits and for the 1st time since things started to go bad with him, I am putting my limits ahead of everything else. So I need to have this discussion with him.

Here what I want to tell him about what I expect from a RS:

1)   I want it to be based on trust and he doesn’t trust me (which often lead to heavy jealousy crisis….).

2)   I want to live in a steady and quiet environment at home and he gets often into rage outburst for little frustrations.

3)   I want him to respect who I am and respect my opinions which is rarely the case.

I know now that I CAN NOT change him. Therapy (which we have been speaking of for 3 years but he has never taken the first step) may help him. However I don’t want to force him to do a therapy.

I don’t have THE solution, I just know where I am in this relationship and that I cannot go further if things don’t change.

How can I have this discussion with my BPD BF? Any pieces of advice? The “do” and “don’t” ?

thank you!

[an0ught]

Hi Isa_lala,

what would be the purpose of this talk considering that you can't change him (as you said) and this talk coming from you is unlikely to do anything in that direction?

Are you frustrated (sounds like it)? Do you want the talk for venting? That will only backfire as it increases shame.

There are ways to communicate based on validation and in particular S.E.T.. But even with S.E.T. it would not be advised to throw everything incl. the kitchen-sink as this would overload the very limited emotional coping capacity of a pwBPD. When you want change take one topic at a time and handle it in a way that both sides maintain respect and leave some time and space to recover from the excitement.

1)   I want it to be based on trust and he doesn’t trust me (which often lead to heavy jealousy crisis….).

You can't force anyone to trust you. In a way he trust you as he is sticking around and in the end it is his problem that he is struggling to trust and suffers from excessive jealousy. A problem he may want to seek help with.

2)   I want to live in a steady and quiet environment at home and he gets often into rage outburst for little frustrations.

Telling is controlling. Validation and boundaries will have way more impact than any talk. The problem is not that he does not like it calm but he is unable without proper structure.

3)   I want him to respect who I am and respect my opinions which is rarely the case.

Using S.E.T. can help here a lot. So does taking dialectical stance stressing the distinctness of different individual viewpoints. A few times enforcing boundaries (see 2) may work wonders here too - the clearer he perceives the difference between you and him (and boundaries have a real impact here) the less he will be invalidated by your different point of view.

A "talk" may help at a time too but keep it respectful. It may provide a backdrop/framework for change but each change is a struggle by itself. And a series of won struggles does add up. It requires some patience though. The "Improving/Staying Board" would be a place to coach you through each change.

[Suzn]

Hello Isa_lala 

Sorry you're struggling with your husband. 

I am at one point where I need something to happen in our chaotic relationship or I end it.

When we are wanting to find solutions, ultimatums don't bode well with a pwBPD. They leave no room for negotiation.

This is MY limits and for the 1st time since things started to go bad with him, I am putting my limits ahead of everything else.

It's good to know what your limits are. This helps you set boundaries for yourself.

Here what I want to tell him about what I expect from a RS:

1)   I want it to be based on trust and he doesn’t trust me (which often lead to heavy jealousy crisis….).

2)   I want to live in a steady and quiet environment at home and he gets often into rage outburst for little frustrations.

3)   I want him to respect who I am and respect my opinions which is rarely the case.

These situations are difficult for sure. They make us uncomfortable and that can show in our tone of voice and our body language. How do you handle feeling uncomfortable around your H? Rage outbursts over little frustrations is a unhealthy coping strategy and has little to do with you. Do you take these personally?   

 

I don’t have THE solution, I just know where I am in this relationship and that I cannot go further if things don’t change.

Have you had an opportunity to read over the tools and lessons on the Improving/Staying board as an0ught suggests? These skills take practice and with that practice you are setting an example for your H to follow. It may feel awkward at first however with your H's disorder you are the captain of this ship. A good skill to start with is the DEARMAN technique

As an0ught points out, focusing on one situation at a time will be more successful than a list of demands.

[Isa_lala]

Wow, this is very interesting! You brought a few things I had not thought about.

I will come back this weekend to answer because I think I need to do some thinking

Thank you

[waverider]

Demands trigger a defensive reactions. A defensive stance causes entrenchment, past which movement is even harder to make.

If your BF could readily do these things he most likely already would. The problem is that his though process are almost dyslexic, no matter how hard he tries it comes out wrong. Making statements simply highlights these shortfalls making it an even bigger mountain for him. So he will deny the existence of that mountain

[Notwendy]

How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It Paperback – April 29, 2008

by Patricia Love


While this book does not address BPD and so may not be as effective with BPD in particular, it was an eye opener to me in terms of helping me understand that trying to "talk" about issues in my marriage simply did not work well for me.

I know I tried, for years, to address things in our marriage by talking about them. In my case, it didn't go well at all. Despite that, I kept falling for the idea of "maybe this time it will work" and experienced failure after failure.

I could not understand why.  He's intelligent, understands when being spoken to, but if something came out of my mouth, it somehow got twisted into some kind of horrible criticism in his mind, was perceived as an attack, and he went into defense mode. I would JADE and we would have hour long circular discussions that went nowhere until I would cry with defeat and exasperation.

WW is right in that talking can trigger shame. If my H could have had such discussions with me, he would have already.

What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. For me- and I don't know if it is true for everyone, I had to come to terms with realizing that talking about potentially critical issues just doesn't work.

I didn't write this book, nor do I get any profit from it-and I don't know if it applies to all situations,  but it gave me some ideas. Like most books of this type- I look for ideas that may work, but discard those that don't fit.

I also agree with using the lessons on this site. Boundaries are internal. For instance, I can't control if someone trusts me or not, but if I value trust, then I can strive to be trustworthy. This way, if someone accuses me of not being that, I know that I am and the accusation doesn't ring true for me. I don't have to defend it ( JADE)

[Isa_lala]

Hello everyone and thank you again for your messages

What you wrote really spoke with me and here is what i could add:

What do I expect from this discussion? To be very honest, maybe I want to give one last chance to our relationship? Maybe I want to be sure that I have done EVERYTHING that I could to save this RS?

I realize that it may be totally useless.

The things I wanted to tell him, I know for sure that he knows what I expect from a relationship because I told him many, many, many times. I am quite sure that he expects the same thing from a RS but is not able to have it.

In fact, yes I want him to trust me and maybe to stay with me shows that he already trusts me. However, what I DO NOT WANT ANYMORE is the jealousy crisis. I became allergic to any jealous comment from him. So whether he trusts me or not, I don't really care, what I want, it's an end to his little or big jealous talks

And you know what? I may seem very mean, but I am at a point where I don't even want to use all this technics with him so he won't be invalidated nor feel shame etc. If it was my son, I would learn the technics and I will make sure I apply it very well to ease the communication and make sure my boy grow up in better conditions.

But my BF is a 58 year-old man and he knows he has issues, he knows he should start a therapy, has the money for that and we live in a big city where resources are enormous. So why should I be the ONLY one in the RS to make efforts and to work on the RS?

If he was working seriously with a therapist on his issue, I would make a lot of efforts on my on, even see a psychologist would guide me in the BPD world, but I won't fight alone

So I may not have this talk with him but simply tell him that if nothing changes, I will not be willing to go on with this RS.

I don't know. I am all mixed up in my head

[babyducks]

Hi Isa_lala,

I can understand not wanting to use the skills and tools that are mentioned here, because sometimes I don't either.   Sometimes it feels unfair that I have to do, what looks like extra work.     Still this is the relationship I have right now and I want to know within me that I have done the best I could with it.

Ending the little or big jealousy talks seems like a good place to set a boundary and a goal.   Would you feel comfortable saying a little more about how those jealousy talks play out now?  

'ducks

[Isa_lala]

Hello and thank you for your feedback

The feeling of jealousy is revealed by small comments or by silence treatments. Recently, that was because I had a professional event after my working hours (first time I went to this annual event while I have worked for the same company for 4 years), then, because I went to a happy hour given for a colleague who was retiring (I have never participated in a happy hour since I am in this relationship with my BF). I got the silence treatment as well as mean comments.

That could also be because I want to start an intercourse with him as he says that it is not him that I want to have sex with but just with anybody… once, I experimented a huge crisis only because a dad of a child I know kissed me hello in front of my BF. I make a long story short, but he was outraged for 2 days, and repeated this crisis twice after that (When it happened that we met this dad again)

I cannot take it anymore. I developed like an allergic reaction to even the smallest jealousy comment from him.

[waverider]

When thinking about the tools here, it becomes more palatable if you consider them life skills to help you communicate better with everyone. They also teach you an awareness of the reactions and affects on others, along with an ability to adapt. This is why boundaries are about you, its just that the pwBPD in your life is the one who tests them the most, but they are equally applicable to everyone.

Thinking this way reduces the resentment often experienced when you question why you have to go through all this effort.

Wanting to say your piece I think is a lot about a feeling of closure, stating your findings and conclusions so that no matter where it goes from here you dont feel like it is left hanging with potentially a whole lot of "what ifs". This is understandable.

The biggest risk is that you get presented with a whole lot of promises and negotiations which some part of you will cling to, again. Then the "closure" is compromised.

Often we only become strong enough to implement big choices when in our minds we are willing to let go, as our resolve is strong and we are not bluffing. Our attitude changes and it shows. Brinkmanship no longer workson us  and they can sense it

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Isa, I understand your "allergic reaction."  I'm extremely patient, but after years of getting raged at, I found that my boiling point had been lowered.  Little things my spouse did would trigger angry reactions from me.  I was becoming more and more like her and less and less like me.  After that experience, I think it's important to be oneself in any r/s, BPD or otherwise.

LuckyJim

[waverider]

I think it's important to be oneself in any r/s, BPD or otherwise.

It is import that you value your right to your reality, and to express it. The trick is then not to try and sell it, that is not your right, and is probably futile anyway as they are not buying. That just frustrates everyone.

It doesn't matter if no one buys your reality just as long as you don't stifle it. Otherwise as you say, you loose yourself and it knocks you off center with your own emotions and reactions.

It can also tempt you into passive aggressive means of payback

[Isa_lala]

When thinking about the tools here, it becomes more palatable if you consider them life skills to help you communicate better with everyone. They also teach you an awareness of the reactions and affects on others, along with an ability to adapt. This is why boundaries are about you, its just that the pwBPD in your life is the one who tests them the most, but they are equally applicable to everyone.

Thinking this way reduces the resentment often experienced when you question why you have to go through all this effort.

I totally agree with you on this. I discovered some weaknesses in me and I now understand better how I think and how I behave. this better knowledge of me will definitely help me in my other relationships (professional r/s, friendship etc.)

What I find difficult is to put a lot of effort in understanding my BF behaviour to adapt myself to that and to see that he is not making any effort in trying to ameliorate what doesn't work with him. I am very sure he could work with a professional on his twisted thought. But he doesn't do the effort... .It's like cycling on a tandem to go forward when the other in the back brakes.

[Isa_lala]

I agree in being ourself. I presently try to do so in saying what I really think and not walking on eggshells

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Isla,

I am quite familiar with the lack of effort on pwBPD's part to ameliorate what doesn't work.  [sigh]

Due to the disorder, I think self-reflection is anathema to a pwBPD, because on some deep level they can't accept their own imperfections or address their own issues, which are too scary and/or painful.

You have to work around this limitation, in my view, to save a BPD r/s.

LuckyJim

[waverider]

Hello again, Isla,

I am quite familiar with the lack of effort on pwBPD's part to ameliorate what doesn't work.  [sigh]

Due to the disorder, I think self-reflection is anathema to a pwBPD, because on some deep level they can't accept their own imperfections or address their own issues, which are too scary and/or painful.

You have to work around this limitation, in my view, to save a BPD r/s.

LuckyJim

This is the barrier to recovery. Then once they do own up to having issues, they can not only accept their impefections but it can overwhelm them causing major crisis because they still can't address them.

So while the non feels relief at that moment of ownership the pwBPD dives into depression and self loathing. This can bring on severe domestic trauma. If the non has not already gained a good understanding by this stage the relationship will potentially crash.

In my RS my wife went on a spree of overdosing and self harm for the next year and a half, demanding someone "fix her" once she accepted her problem had a name.

[Isa_lala]

My BF definitely knows that he has major issues and he has a clear idea of where it comes from (his childhood)

I believe however that working on these issues appears to him to be too emotionally demanding and could be very painful so he tries to keep his head in the sand... .without a great success.

he is actually in depression but won't do anything to get out of it. He recently visited his doctor he has known for years and did not tell him anything. Just pretended that everything was ok... .i believe that seeking for help means to him being weak and not competent

this weekend has been very difficult. He started to be verbally aggressive on Friday night and when I saw that  my 8-year old son was not feeling well because of this atmosphere I went to a friend's and we slept there over. The rest of the weekend was more quiet.

but, now that I don't have anymore hope that my BF will change, I am moving slowly forward to the break-up. I have to protect my son who told me on Saturday to be afraid of my BF when he gets upset. He is afraid that my BF will hit him. So I do not want that for me nor do I want that for my son who doesn't have any other choice than copying with that.

I will wait for the Holiday vacation to come and make a decision beginning of January. Either I break up right there or I have this conversation I wanted to have to let my BF knows that he does whatever he wants, but I WILL NOT go on with a RS where my BF gets upset all the time, yells at everyone, or give me the silent treatment or tell me all these stupids comments due to his lack on confidence in me. I gave what I had to give, that's more than enough. And I will break up if necessary, I am closer to this decision than I have ever been.