Can they empathize with other people?

[empath]

As I'm processing where I am at in my relationship with uBPDh, I'm thinking about the way toward healing of our relationship. The backstory is that h displays several of the criteria of BPD, but he has not been diagnosed. This has caused a lot of strain on our marriage and life in general. In January/February, we were under a lot of stress, and he became physically dangerous (he injured himself and scared me enough for me to seek help from outside sources). I drew a line in the sand and said things have to change. He resisted the idea that he was abusive for about 6 months but eventually was able to say it. Then, in September, we received a letter from the Bishop of our church relaying concerns about physical safety that had been communicated to him. Bishop recommended marriage counseling, but our counselors advised us against joint counseling due to the abuse. UBPDh has had 2 sets of 3 counseling sessions with a therapist, and I am continuing with counseling, both in person and online support groups.

So, one of the criteria for healing that the counselors and support people talk about is that the abuser is able to empathize with their victim and understand how they have hurt the other person. It seems that this is a crucial part of the healing of a relationship from abuse and true change of the abuser.

But... .  One of the ongoing issues in our marriage is uBPDh's inability to really understand my perspective. We've had some conversations where h has stated that he understands empathy to be understanding how he would feel if he were in other people's place (instead of how other people feel). I've also read "Stop Caretaking" which talks about accepting the realities of BPD in our lives which is good as long as those realities don't make it unsafe for a person to remain in physical relationship with the pwBPD.

So, I find myself wrestling with the idea of whether he can empathize with me and truly change? If that is not possible, how do I explain why we are not able to heal?

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[hashtag_loyal]

I don't think there are clear answers here, but you would know your husband better than anyone. I would trust your gut, and if you are concerned about your physical safety at all it is ok to take steps to protect yourself.

So, I find myself wrestling with the idea of whether he can empathize with me and truly change?

Can he empathize? Probably. Will he truly change? Doubtful.

If he's a pwBPD, his actions are probably very impulsive, and dictated by what he feels in the moment. Even if he is able to demonstrate some sense of empathy from time to time, it really doesn't matter because at the moment he decides to act, his thought process never reaches a high-enough level of consciousness for him incorporate that empathy in the decision making process. It's not that he is completely unaware of your feelings, but he might as well be because he is not capable of taking them into account when he acts.

Most pwBPD hold onto intense levels of rage that they have been repressing for their whole lives. A lot of times the rage will get to a point that the pwBPD will "act out" and behave in much the way a toddler does when flying into a tantrum (although obviously much scarier and more dangerous as an adult.) Often times the rage will be so intense, that a pwBPD will enter into a dissociative state. Once in this state, he will set aside his own feelings (and any concern for others) while acting out this rage. A pwBPD in this state will be capable of some pretty hurtful things -- regardless of how he would otherwise feel about others -- including inflicting great harm to loved ones, or himself.

I guess what I am trying to say is, even if he loves you and is aware of your feelings, that won't necessarily prevent him from inflicting the abuse. Be careful.

[empath]

I'm a lot more wary of any physical expressions, now, in the 'new' world. I never thought that I would need a safety plan, just in case something gets out of control -- I do and have a plan A and plan B. IOW, I have options that I didn't have before; I started talking to people who were concerned about me, and I figured it out.

Anyway, we have had conversations in which it seems to me that the only feelings that he is able to recognize and 'understand' are the kinds of feelings that he has had himself. If I have more 'normal' or a wider range of feelings, he doesn't understand those. For example, he is often angry; it is almost like a default emotion for him. So, he will regularly ask me what I'm angry about or assume that my actions are based on some anger or deep-seated shame/fear. It doesn't seem to matter that I say that I'm feeling a different set of emotions.

The dissociative states worry me a lot because he genuinely does not seem to remember them and the things that he has done. I think he is probably worried about that as well because he knows it is a symptom of something much more than just a 'codependent' issue. When I mention these things, it almost feels like talking to a person with alzheimers; there is a fear and suspicion that comes up because he thinks I'm just reinventing the past. I try not to go there too much, but there is a significant incident involving one of our daughters that he doesn't remember. (it has been reported to CPS by a number of people, but nothing was done because it wasn't an imminent threat).

[shatra]

    It is hard for them to see other ways of thinking than their own----they project so often, that they just assume that others including you, feel, think and process the way they do

   I have seen them empathize with animals or strangers who are suffering, but very reluctant to empathize with the partner---I am not sure why

[empath]

The suffering of others is something he "feels bad" about, as long as the suffering isn't caused by him.

It's difficult to explain to other people about our relationship.  I was talking with someone yesterday who said that uBPDh really does love me. I said that I knew he loves me, in the only way that he knows how. Then we went on discussing the behaviors  (impulse control) that he needs to work on. I've reduced his ability to act on his feelings somewhat in the past few weeks. But I'm still trying to really decide whether our relationship is somewhere that I can be healthy.

[maxsterling]

This is a complicated question that I think centers on exactly how you define "empathize".

Using my W as an example, I do not think she empathizes in the same way I do, but she is capable of some form of empathy.  As mentioned, the empathy is definitely there when it involves other people besides herself.  If W is a character in the story, it's different.  She is almost always at first defensive and standoffish, and sees a situation involving her as different.  She has a difficult time seeing how she hurts others in the same way others hurt her.  Yet, she will occasionally get into a mode where she will claim she is a "bad person" or some variant of that, yet turns that to be about her - almost as an excuse.

Example:  "I feel bad that I hurt you."

I think she is capable of putting herself into my shoes, but it's not easy for her, and I think she blocks that pathway to avoid shame.  My wife feels like her life has been many times worse than others', and that is 100% result of what other people did to her.   So she may agree that she has behaved poorly towards me, but in her eyes it is much less worse than what she has experienced in the past.

[Cat Familiar]

Anyway, we have had conversations in which it seems to me that the only feelings that he is able to recognize and 'understand' are the kinds of feelings that he has had himself. If I have more 'normal' or a wider range of feelings, he doesn't understand those. For example, he is often angry; it is almost like a default emotion for him. So, he will regularly ask me what I'm angry about or assume that my actions are based on some anger or deep-seated shame/fear. It doesn't seem to matter that I say that I'm feeling a different set of emotions.

Wow, do I empathize and sympathize with you about that. I have the same issue of being accused of being "angry" when in reality I'm mildly annoyed or even just feeling unsettled. It's like pwBPD only have primary colors to paint their emotions, while nons can have a full color palette of feelings.

That they can be empathetic to strangers seems to be two fold: 1. they have no responsibility for how strangers might be feeling and 2. they want to look good to others to enhance their feelings about themselves.

[JaneStorm]

    It is hard for them to see other ways of thinking than their own----they project so often, that they just assume that others including you, feel, think and process the way they do

   I have seen them empathize with animals or strangers who are suffering, but very reluctant to empathize with the partner---I am not sure why

^^^YES!^^^

It's the most confusing thing. Hurtful too.

[Cat Familiar]

Yet, she will occasionally get into a mode where she will claim she is a "bad person" or some variant of that, yet turns that to be about her - almost as an excuse.

Sometimes I might say something accusatory to my husband like: "You forgot to pay the insurance." I try not to, but sometimes it just slips out. Then he'll get an angry look on his face and say, "I'm a bad person." He will be pissed off for hours.

It's almost like if they say they're bad, that's the "get out of jail free" card. They've admitted it and now they have the right to be mad at us for pointing out a flaw.   

[ColdEthyl]

    It is hard for them to see other ways of thinking than their own----they project so often, that they just assume that others including you, feel, think and process the way they do

   I have seen them empathize with animals or strangers who are suffering, but very reluctant to empathize with the partner---I am not sure why

That's my husband, too. Now, I will say though since we have been working on our issues together, he's been different. He has admitted when he was wrong, and has stated he know he made me feel this or that and he was sorry.

That's hard for them... .to admit fault. It makes them feel defective. They think they are not worth anything if they are not perfect every second of the day.

[empath]

That's hard for them... .to admit fault. It makes them feel defective. They think they are not worth anything if they are not perfect every second of the day.

Yep. The whole black and white thinking comes into play. If they are not perfect, they are the worst kind of evil.

Lately, my husband has been reading a lot about shame and how to deal with it. He has identified it in a number of our conversations. However, it seems to me that he has difficulty separating guilt for having done something wrong from shame of not being enough.

[Herodias]

So if you tell them they did something to hurt you does that make them cower away? Mine never apologizes. He usually days he's a bad person. This time he said nothing... .This time it's too big to fix- maybe that's why he says nothing. It doesn't matter.

[Notwendy]

I think an outright apology or admittance is not something that is easily obtained from someone with a PD, if at all. My own explanation of this is that it would elicit so much shame that it would feel anhilating to them, so there are strong defenses to it- projection and even dissociation from it.

People with BPD can have such a poor sense of self that it is only sustained by the impression of others. When accused of something that they may feel badly about, it can feel as if their entire selves are being attacked, not the action.

However, I do think there is some awareness of it, but if the goal is a verbal apology, that may not happen.

Of course, if there is a danger of physical abuse, the first consideration is personal safety and one should do what is necessary to establish that. Saying " sorry" does not mean it can't happen.

For other issues "sorry" may not be a realistic goal. I think boundaries are. Most of us are not used to super tight boundaries. We do have them, such as personal safety, but for many transgressions, I think we tend to be flexible and forgiving. However, I think people with BPD can test boundaries, and so firm ones are necessary.

Boundaries are not something we need to make others "understand" by speaking and calm mutual discussions. They don't even need to be discussed in some cases- but we have to maintain them by acting on them. For instance- if someone speaks cruelly to us- I think our tendency is to try to make someone "understand how that makes us feel" by talking about it. But it may not be possible to "make " someone understand us. That is their responsibility. Our side is to not tolerate being spoken to cruelly. Our two options are to disengage from the conversation and/or leave the room.

[Reforming]

Yes in certain circumstances. You could question how stable or mature that empathy is, but I think that people BPD are capable of empathy. It can often feel fleeting and superficial if you really examine it.

I think they really struggle to empathise is in situations where they are triggered and feel overwhelmed by shame - particularly when it's caused by their own behaviour. In these instances they either go into lock down mode and shut down all their emotions, cast off their shame on others by projecting or flee. Sometimes they do all three

We all struggle to emphasise when we feel triggered or overwhelmed but I think it's much more extreme with someone who is disordered because they lack the emotional maturity and stability to sustain real insight into others

Reforming

[babyducks]

Hi empath

But... .  One of the ongoing issues in our marriage is uBPDh's inability to really understand my perspective. We've had some conversations where h has stated that he understands empathy to be understanding how he would feel if he were in other people's place (instead of how other people feel).

My partner and I experienced a violent event in the spring of 2013.  It's taken us a while to work passed it.   And I too had to do a lot of deep soul searching about what did this all mean and what were the chances of it occurring again.

I think maxsterling nailed it for me when he said there are different forms and maybe grades of empathy.  I know my partner processes life in a much different fashion than I do so it makes sense that she would empathize in a different way than I would expect.     I agree with Reforming that all of us struggle with empathy from time to time when we feel triggered or overwhelmed.

I've also read "Stop Caretaking" which talks about accepting the realities of BPD in our lives which is good as long as those realities don't make it unsafe for a person to remain in physical relationship with the pwBPD.

So, I find myself wrestling with the idea of whether he can empathize with me and truly change? If that is not possible, how do I explain why we are not able to heal?

what has been true for me in my experience is that empathy was not the only method to affect significant long term change and heal the relationship.    it was a multi faceted approach and one that I needed to take a lot of responsibility for.     NotWendy mentioned boundaries.   those are crucial.    In addition I needed to understand that BPD is a spectrum disorder, and that under stress my pwBPD can shift further down the spectrum.   And to plan accordingly.   building in stress releasers that worked for both of us was helpful.     and in the end being willing to look beyond some of the limitations that exist was also necessary.

safety first.   I spent a lot of time reconciling what happened and how to proceed until I felt confident that it wouldn't happen again.

in the end,  I couldn't say how much responsibility was 'taken' or 'accepted' by either of us.  however we did get to the place where we could comfortably look towards and move towards the future with confidence and trust.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

"One of the ongoing issues in our marriage is uBPDh's inability to really understand my perspective."

Friday a dysregulation unfolded and it caught me by surprise. My husband likes to go to a local sandwich shop for lunch and he always gets there early to avoid the lunch rush. He told me he was going there and an hour later I left to do errands. I was pumping gas next door to the shop when I realized his car wasn't there. Then he drives up and walks toward the sandwich shop.

I was shocked. He comes unglued if he doesn't eat his meals on time. And he hates waiting in line. This triggered me because my ex-husband had a history of betrayal.

When I saw my husband later that day, I said, "Imagine my surprise when I saw you arrive at the shop an hour after you left here, saying you were going there." I said nothing more, other than when he asked me where I was to see him, I said that it didn't matter.

What he admitted to was taking all his empty wine bottles to the recycle place, which I believe because they were gone. (That's another source of shame for him. He likes to dispose of the evidence.)

To get back to topic, he just couldn't understand why I would be "such an ogre" about questioning him. He's had betrayal in his marital history too so I thought he could imagine it from my perspective. NOPE! It turned into him thinking that I don't trust him.

I told him that it triggered my PTSD and he accused me of valuing my PTSD more than him?      

So, lesson learned, JADEing never helps. I thought we had gotten to a place later that night when I did SET and he seemed calmed down and like he felt validated. (Meanwhile not an ounce of validation for me, but what did I expect with a pwBPD?)

Unfortunately yesterday he was storming around until late in the day. I just made myself scarce and worked on outdoor projects.

Such is the life of a non married to a pwBPD.

[Notwendy]

Cat, I agree with you JADE ing does not work.

The incident you described would have upset me too a while back. I was all about sharing, and being up front. I had to reconcile that my H is generally an upfront guy. He is good to us, good to the kids and I am grateful.

But he has some thing about keeping things more private than I think is necessary. I'm a pretty easygoing person, I think, and supportive. If someone I cared about really wanted to do something on their own, or buy something, there would not be a reason to hide it.

I think the secrecy/hiding is a sense of control. My mother- more exaggerated with BPD, seems to like secrets.  She will take someone aside and "tell them a secret not to tell someone else" like a grade school girl on the playground. She sometimes doesn't tell the truth because she prefers to keep other people in the dark.

Some things he does that he does not tell me - when he has time off from work, he doesn't tell anyone. I recall getting into the car to pick up the kids and spotting his car in a store parking lot on the way to the school. I wasn't looking for him- it was on the way to school and I assumed he was at work.

I think I did ask him about this, but he took it as a confrontation. Being asked about any behavior can easily be construed as a confrontation, criticism, and even an actual attack.  He would say things to me " you are just beating me with this".  I would JADE and the whole thing would go downhill.

Where this used to hurt my feelings was knowing couple friends who, if the H had time off from work, he would call the wife to meet him for lunch. My H doesn't do this, and it hurt my feelings but it doesn't anymore. I think it is because if he gets time off, then he really doesn't think about doing something with me at the moment, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care. It was me making meaning from that.

In fact, now I am quite the opposite. I don't like to have this surprise at the last minute. We both get up early, and so we have a routine to go to bed early. If he has a day off or the next day- he would out of the blue get romantic with me- after all- He didn't have to get up early the next day, but it didn't occur to him that I did! If he would have told me, then we could have made plans to go to bed earlier if that's what he wanted. I have also developed my routine in the day, and other commitments and I don't like that being interrupted. If I am at home, then I am working. When he is at home, it is spare time to him, but I have things to do.

He used to also call me from work telling me he was "giving me a break" from cooking dinner and picking up something on the way. But he would only pick up dinner for HIM! There was still me and the kids and it was no cooking break as it isn't a big deal to cook a portion for him along with us, ( as I was doing anyway). Then he'd tell me what a great favor he did for me by not asking me to cook for him.

Cat, I just let it go. Not only do I not think this way, I don't even begin to understand it. So I don't even try. The basics are there though. He supports us, he is not cheating or doing something that would be a big problem in the marriage. I am grateful for that. This is his way of thinking. Ironically, since I let it go, he has become more considerate and helpful. Maybe this is a result of me not being upset and leaving space for him to do so, or just a change in how I see things.

[Notwendy]

One way I think about this is that BPD is a disorder that affects the most intimate relationships.

I think that in an intimate relationship, they are the most attached and have the most to fear/lose and so are on "high alert" in terms of their self -protective mechanisms. In this "flight or fight" mode, we are pretty unaware of the thoughts/feelings of someone else.

I tried countless times to get my H to "see how I felt" by explaining, talking, discussing...  but these times seemed to put him on "high alert" trying to think of the right thing to say and also he perceived that he was under some sort of attack by me. They don't work.

I realized that I can not "make " anyone understand how I feel so I don't try this anymore.

In relationships that are more casual, there isn't as much at stake. I think their thinking process is more relaxed and there can be more place for empathy.

I don't know what my mother's capacity for empathy is. I know that our relationship is better when I am less emotionally reactive to her. With my H, I just have to accept that his need for his own space is large. Our relationship is better when he has that space, even if it is not my need for that much space. I have become more accustomed to that too- which surprises me because I didn't think I would.

[EmotionalWarfare]

Everyone here makes some really valid points.  Just a little history, my wife, whom I've been married to for 21 years, is also undiagnosed BPD.  She has very many of the traits.  It is most certainly a spectrum disorder as I have seen heart her worst and other times she is for the most part, ok.  For years I excused her behavior and made excuses for her because her mother, whom I also think has BPD, treated her so badly.  Anyway, my wife does most of what you have all described.  She often decides that I am angry when I may just be a little put off or mildly annoyed.  I really do not like this.  Often I am not even close to angry but she will start telling me what she's not going to put up with and how she had enough of this from her mother.  I often let nearly anything that bothers me slide because the long drawn out maze of a BS conversation that only focuses on how she feels, or how she is wronged is just exhausting.  I find it difficult at times to not "take the bait" when she is hammering out a thought and explaining why she is right.  For her it seems she wants to be right no matter the cost.  She will twist and distort things so much it blows my mind.  In the past she could suck me into an argument very quickly.  We'd argue and it would take so many turns I would forget what in the heck we were even arguing about.  I have found it easier at times to just apologize so that I can keep the peace.  Which probably was not a good idea.

A common trait seems to be them being very capable of empathy and kindness for strangers or those not so close.  For years this has been a source of frustration and hurt for me as it seems she cares for anyone and everyone but me.  I am the one who takes care of her, listens to her often unreasonable grievances, talks her off the ledge, so to speak, and helps her see things with more clarity.  I also do all the yard work, laundry, cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, pay the bills, make any needed home or auto repairs, etc, etc.  She literally does nothing around our house.  On occasion she will, out of the blue, go on a rampage about all that she is sick of in her life and do some cleaning.  But she yells at everyone in the house about how filthy everything is.  Even tho I keep the house pretty clean.  She completely puts everyone in a bad mood.  She will yell at my daughters and repeatedly state how she is sick of nobody helping.  The irony in this is that she never helps.  In fact, she is quite a slob.  I spend a fair amount of time cleaning up after her.  She will try on several outfits and not hang any of them back in her closet.  She often will throw clean clothes in our laundry bin.  I find myself washing clothes I am certain she has not wore.  She'll eat a bowl of pasta, not finish it, then put the half eaten bowl in a sink of dishwater so that the water is now nasty and needs replaced.  Or she'll leave the bowl on her nightstand, etc. etc.  I often let her messes accumulate until I can't take it.  I hope she'd get tired of the mess but she doesn't.  I end up carrying her multitude of dirty dishes, napkins, plates, glasses, bowls to the sink and soak them.  I do the same with her laundry.  I'll put most of it away but I'll leave some out on hangers or folded for her to put away.  It's the same scenario.  It sits there until I get sick of it and I take care of it.  She can't even take a few moments to put her clean clothes away. 

So in this arena either she has no empathy or she does not care because this certainly bothers me but she has done nothing to change this or help for 21 years.

This is one of the things I fantasize about.  Living by myself.  My house would be so clean and organized.  I often wonder if they (BPD) pick and choose what to care about or how to act because they can or if it is a real deficit in their ability to empathize with those close to them.  Many times I feel I am making excuses for a master manipulator and I am the FOOL.

Just think how chaotic the world would be if we all thought like this!

[Notwendy]

This is how it appeared to me growing up. My mother seemed to be always unhappy about something, or someone in the family. We kids used to wonder what she did all day. Dad did the major part of the parenting. He was fortunate to afford household help to clean and we had nannies when we were little as he had to go to work. As a kid, I resented the nannies, as I wanted a mommy like my friends had, but now, as an adult, I am so grateful that someone held us and cared for us when we were little.

I learned to fend for myself pretty young. The issues in my marriage were not quite the same. My H worked and supported us but his idea was that this was all he was going to do, as doing anything else was "my job" and not fair to him. I didn't expect to be like my mother- I pulled my own weight and also worked for years, but didn't make the same amount of money as my H so according to him, it wasn't as important. However, having had a Dad who took us to the park, and did things with us, I was surprised that my H would have nothing to do with anything he considered "my job".  There was a lot of anger and raging at me on his part. I was co-dependent and not wanting to put the kids through what I went through as a kid, took on the role of kids and home, and trying to appease him to keep the peace.


When I see posts about men who do things around the house for their wives, I am astounded. I can eat something, but if I leave the plate out, it will stay there till the end of time. Ditto for clothing or anything else. My H does his own laundry and makes sure that I know that he feels put out by this.  I just told him I was not going to do it as I was overwhelmed with the house and the kids and taking care of their stuff which he didn't help with. I just figured he could at least do his own.

One thing that I found irritating is that sometimes after dinner, he would say to me "why don't you take a break from washing dishes and watch TV with me? " That break didn't mean he would help. It meant leaving them until tomorrow when I would do them! Some break!

My question is this: what if you just took care of you and the kids, and left her stuff? If she has no clean clothes, then she has to take care of them. My kids figured this out as they got older- they all know how to do laundry and fix a meal. She may have a fit at first, but she's not a little child. Also, if you are doing the housework and

[flourdust]

When I see posts about men who do things around the house for their wives, I am astounded. I can eat something, but if I leave the plate out, it will stay there till the end of time. Ditto for clothing or anything else. My H does his own laundry and makes sure that I know that he feels put out by this.  I just told him I was not going to do it as I was overwhelmed with the house and the kids and taking care of their stuff which he didn't help with. I just figured he could at least do his own.

Heh. Yeah, I am now the world's greatest house-husband, as well as working full-time as the only breadwinner in the family, being an active parent, and my second job as therapist/punching bag for BPDw.

I'm living EmotionalWarfare's experience, too. My wife actually did the dishes this week. This is the first time this has happened in at least a year. She said she was trying to be "nice." I thanked her for doing the dishes (I'm responsible for thanking her whenever she actually does a household chore.) She started criticizing me for leaving rice in a pot, which took a lot of scrubbing. I suggested she could soak the pot. BOOM! She dysregulated all over me.

Here's an anecdote I think the OP will enjoy. Once, I did all the laundry, as I usually do. I put my clothes away, folded the wife's, and left hers in the basket in the living room to put away. A week passed. I moved the basket to the bedroom, gently nestled in among the general mess of trash, dirty clothes, magazines, etc. that are piled up on the floor by her side of the bed. Another week passed. I did another load of laundry. I took her clean clothes and put them on top of the clothes that were still in the basket. A few more weeks passed. I added more clean clothes to the basket.

Two months later, she suddenly put her clothes away and collected all her dirty clothes from their piles in the bedroom, bathroom, living room, closet, and who knows where else. The good news was that I got my laundry basket back! (I had missed it.) The bad news was that it took three whole washer loads to get through her accumulated laundry. And now they're all back in the basket.

If I ever ended up in a relationship with someone who pulled her own weight, I don't know what I'd do. Probably feel anxiety because things were getting mysteriously cleaned without me doing it!

[EmotionalWarfare]

Flour dust said... .

"If I ever ended up in a relationship with someone who pulled her own weight, I don't know what I'd do. Probably feel anxiety because things were getting mysteriously cleaned without me doing it!"

Oh what a wonderful dream!


WOW!  I just had to laugh.  Me Too!  LoL!  If I could submit a pic of my wife's side of the bed, vanity, closet, or anything else I'm sure you'd laugh.  Chaos!  I too, work many hours.  I often get up at 3:10am so that I can clock in by 4:45.  I drive 60 miles to work and I think that saves me sometimes.  I can listen to music as loud as I can handle or drive in complete silence!  The silence is really really nice at times!

[ColdEthyl]

Flour dust said... .

"If I ever ended up in a relationship with someone who pulled her own weight, I don't know what I'd do. Probably feel anxiety because things were getting mysteriously cleaned without me doing it!"

Oh what a wonderful dream!


WOW!  I just had to laugh.  Me Too!  LoL!  If I could submit a pic of my wife's side of the bed, vanity, closet, or anything else I'm sure you'd laugh.  Chaos!  I too, work many hours.  I often get up at 3:10am so that I can clock in by 4:45.  I drive 60 miles to work and I think that saves me sometimes.  I can listen to music as loud as I can handle or drive in complete silence!  The silence is really really nice at times!

*chuckles* I often think I would be quite bored with a 'norm'.

[Notwendy]

It's interesting how we do not end up in relationships with each other. This supports the theory of how people tend to choose partners who match their dysfunction. When I see this, it is an opportunity for me to look at how I match the picture.

I have had to do a lot of work on co-dependency with myself.

LOL there is a book out called "Porn for Women". It isn't really porn. It's a series of pictures of handsome men doing housework. I think, in a balanced relationship, this would work!

But I too am in the place where, if someone were to do something like do the dishes for me, my first thought would be "what is he up to-- what does he want? It might make me a bit nervous ... .

[ColdEthyl]

It's interesting how we do not end up in relationships with each other. This supports the theory of how people tend to choose partners who match their dysfunction. When I see this, it is an opportunity for me to look at how I match the picture.

I have had to do a lot of work on co-dependency with myself.

LOL there is a book out called "Porn for Women". It isn't really porn. It's a series of pictures of handsome men doing housework. I think, in a balanced relationship, this would work!

But I too am in the place where, if someone were to do something like do the dishes for me, my first thought would be "what is he up to-- what does he want? It might make me a bit nervous ... .

I think it's also peculiar how similar a lot of us are. I've particularly noticed that with us females married to BPD men. Our thinking patterns, morals, and the way we choose things are eerily alike.  

[Cat Familiar]

I think it's also peculiar how similar a lot of us are. I've particularly noticed that with us females married to BPD men. Our thinking patterns, morals, and the way we choose things are eerily alike. 

After two BPD husbands, if I ever were to be in another relationship, I think I'd be quite pleased to experience a healthy relationship with a non. As a young woman, I fell for "bad boys" then later the "tragic romantic" type. Normal now sounds like an interesting concept--not boring--intriguing... .

[Cat Familiar]

I think the secrecy/hiding is a sense of control. My mother- more exaggerated with BPD, seems to like secrets.  She will take someone aside and "tell them a secret not to tell someone else" like a grade school girl on the playground. She sometimes doesn't tell the truth because she prefers to keep other people in the dark.

Some things he does that he does not tell me - when he has time off from work, he doesn't tell anyone. I recall getting into the car to pick up the kids and spotting his car in a store parking lot on the way to the school. I wasn't looking for him- it was on the way to school and I assumed he was at work.

I think I did ask him about this, but he took it as a confrontation. Being asked about any behavior can easily be construed as a confrontation, criticism, and even an actual attack.  He would say things to me " you are just beating me with this".  I would JADE and the whole thing would go downhill.

Notwendy, you've made great strides going from codependency to where you find yourself now in a very independent place. I agree that pwBPD really have this need for control and secrecy often is part of that. I think that is why my husband is so reluctant to share his feelings at times--that if he does, he will lose control.

[Notwendy]

Cat, I have worked really hard on this, and I think it is a work in progress.

It feels strange, but perhaps growing up in my FOO the feeling of not being enmeshed would be strange. At times, I wonder if it is wrong to feel this detached, and at other times I think this is what normal feels like, and not being enmeshed would feel detached in comparison. Sometimes I think that I confused enmeshement with that feeling we call "love" and so I don't have a word for how it feels to be less enmeshed. However, I do like the idea that I am less bothered by what other people around me are feeling. Sure, if I caused someone to be upset or unhappy- I would want to know about it and apologize, but before, and growing up, I learned to assume that if someone I cared about was upset, then it HAD to be my fault and it was my job to seek out the problem and fix it.

I know now that if someone is upset, even if that is with me- It is their feeling, and also their responsibility to talk to me about it if they want to. I don't respond to the subtle hints- the sulking, the ST, because, well grown ups have words and people can use their words ( just like we say to little kids).

I am still sensitive. I want to do a good job at work, and be a good wife/mother and want people to think favorably of me, but I have accepted that I only have so much control over that. I can do my best, and that is all.

I also can not control what someone else does. If my H doesn't tell me something, then, well that is his choice. I was completely shocked the other day when he offered to help do something for me, something that it didn't occur to me to even ask. I realized that there are things I stopped expecting a long time ago. Another time, he had a late morning at work the next day, and so changed the alarm. He didn't tell me. Fortunately I woke up myself in time but it was a rush. We usually share the alarm as we get up the same time. Well, I may have gotten upset about this, but I realized that this isn't in his tool box to think "maybe I should ask Notwendy before changing the alarm". This time, it was a reminder to me to not leave my responsibility- to be sure I get up on time, to anyone else. I would have asked him before I changed it.


That's how I think, but he doesn't, and the solution- 2 alarms, is pretty simple and better than arguing.

[Cat Familiar]

It feels strange, but perhaps growing up in my FOO the feeling of not being enmeshed would be strange. At times, I wonder if it is wrong to feel this detached, and at other times I think this is what normal feels like, and not being enmeshed would feel detached in comparison. Sometimes I think that I confused enmeshement with that feeling we call "love" and so I don't have a word for how it feels to be less enmeshed. However, I do like the idea that I am less bothered by what other people around me are feeling. Sure, if I caused someone to be upset or unhappy- I would want to know about it and apologize, but before, and growing up, I learned to assume that if someone I cared about was upset, then it HAD to be my fault and it was my job to seek out the problem and fix it.

I know now that if someone is upset, even if that is with me- It is their feeling, and also their responsibility to talk to me about it if they want to. I don't respond to the subtle hints- the sulking, the ST, because, well grown ups have words and people can use their words ( just like we say to little kids).

I am still sensitive. I want to do a good job at work, and be a good wife/mother and want people to think favorably of me, but I have accepted that I only have so much control over that. I can do my best, and that is all.

This really strikes a chord with me. I knew nothing but being enmeshed beginning with my FOO and continuing into my first marriage. After I got divorced, one of my friends said, "He wouldn't even let you go to the grocery store by yourself." That was absolutely true. If he didn't want to go in to the store, he'd wait in the car for me.

I always thought it was my responsibility to "fix" someone else's bad mood. Like I couldn't rest until I did. Actually I was a better "fixer" with my mother and my first husband than with my current husband. I think of him as a "polarity person." If I try to "help" him feel better, then he does the opposite. For example: if he says that he's concerned that someone doesn't like him and I tell him something positive they said about him to me, then he's sure that they don't like him and that they're up to something. (I've gotten out of this merry-go-round (mostly) and I don't respond when he's worrying about something I consider so trivial as this. (I know he can get himself bent out of shape just thinking he made some social blunder or came across as "stupid." In fact, yesterday he spent two hours writing an email to his investment advisors because he had asked them for some tax info which they wouldn't have yet. He asked me to read it before he sent it, but it took so long that I left to wash my hair and in the meantime he sent it. So I got out of that one inadvertently.)

I, too, think I've confused love with enmeshment--and vice versa. I know I care about my husband, but I'm not sure that I love him according to how I previously defined love. What gets in my way is that I'm not sure I respect him. I know he's a good person, but the childlike and selfish behavior added to the seeming inability to see things from another perspective have damaged my respect for him. I'm not sure how this will all settle out over time. I'm not motivated to leave the relationship, but knowing what I now know, if I were single again and had just met him and could really see him for who he is (lot of if's there), I don't know that I would be motivated to be in a relationship with him. It's scary and freeing to actually say that.