Want Your Opinion on What BPDm Did

[bravhart1]

We are about to go to mediation in a few days. BPDm just submitted a 57 page declaration to the mediator. In it she lobs false accusations, lies, half truths and basically turns any truth in our lives on its ear.

One thing I want to get some advice on: In the declaration she says SD7 hates me and DH so much that she writes things down at moms house "to feel better". Mom has photocopied and included SD7's writings. They are clearly in SD7's handwriting and they say things like "Bravhart is horrible".

Do we make a big deal about this?

Does any one think that my SD in first grade can spell HORRIBLE? She clearly put her up to it for the purpose of "proving" this is how SD feels, but is it more than just egregious? Is it proof that BPDm is pulling SD7 into the court battle? Something else?

I guess my exact question is this: something feels more than wrong about this, but I can't put my finger on just what it is or how to define it. Any ideas?

[Thunderstruck]

First off, I don't think the mediator cares. The mediator's job is to help the two parties come to an agreement. The mediator is not a judge and can't make decisions. So I wouldn't worry about the crage too much (that's what me and DH call it, crage = crazy rage).

BPDmom is using this because she feels backed up in a corner and so is lashing out. She's probably just trying to make you guys look as bad as she possibly can because it makes her feel better.

Legally, those papers from SD7 are considered heresay. My L would say "You can't cross examine a piece of paper". If she tried to submit that as evidence in the courtroom you could object to it and have it "not considered" by the judge. 

However, I agree that it feels more than wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if BPDmom was coaching SD7 into writing these things (our BPDmom has done the same thing multiple times). Yes, it sounds like BPDmom is pulling SD7 into the court battle. Unfortunately, you can't stop BPDmom from doing this. I'll tell you what we've been doing for SD10 (it seems to have relieved some of the push-pull she feels): We tell her that the purpose of what's going on is for the adults to work together to form a solution that is best for everyone. We reassure her that she will be seeing both of her parents consistently and that no one is taking her away from anyone. Then we stress to her that we don't want fights between BPDmom and us.

For the sake of SD7 possibly feeling caught in a push-pull, I would suggest you mention this to her T for them to discuss. I know that when our uBPDbm starts "working over" SD10 like this it makes her very emotional (and she acts out).

[ForeverDad]

This is a not-so-subtle form of parental alienation. It has to be pretty bad for a child to badmouth a parent.  The natural inclination of a normal child is to love both parents.  Really, let's change the storyline.  Imagine the 'horrible' spouse is an alcoholic drunk wonked out a lot of the time.  Would you expect a child to call that parent 'horrible'?  Of course not, the child would probably make excuses for the parent.  That's why her writing that could be seen as an indicator of the other parent improperly casting the parent as bad, in other words, possible alienation attempts.

Richard Warshak, author of Divorce Poison, is an expert on the subtle and not-so-subtle manipulations and pressuring of children.  He has lectured and been interviewed extrensively.  More recently, there have been some posts here about Dr Craig Childress and his new approach to Parental Alienation.  Decades ago Richard A. Gardner advocated Parental Alienation as a real problem and if successful then it would be said the child suffered that PA Syndrome.  The professional community largely opposed that concept, though I think everyone who sees reality knows it has to be called something.  Well, Childress has a new approach that the mental health community will probably support better than Gardner, that alienation affects attachment and is a form of child abuse.  That description is something that can at last fit into the mental health models or paradigms.

Frankly, it's not normal for children to hate or oppose one parent unless something is extreme, such as abuse.  For example, a parent can be an alcoholic or have minor quirks but a child will typically still love the parent.  For a child to paint one parent white and the other black is not normal unless there is real basis to do so.

If your child is not in counseling already, ask the evaluator and court for your child to participate in counseling.  (Courts generally love counseling for the children.  Be forewarned, it's common for a disordered parent to resist counseling for the children or else at least try to control and misdirect it.)  Any counseling sessions must be handled by a very perceptive counselor or therapist, not one who can be conned and manipulated by Ex.  Read up on Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison and "Family Bridges" program.  Also, Craig Childress has recently advocated a novel approach classifying alienation as an attachment issue and a form of child abuse, how well that becomes accepted by the mental health community remains to be seen over time, but it does seems to be a much better approach than that used by Gardiner's PAS unsupported framework that many professionals have resisted over the decades.

I recall my CE report summarized, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting fails then Father should have custody... ."  So if you have a good evaluator and a good court then it should recognize whether one parent is able to reasonably share when the other can't or won't.

[livednlearned]

That has to hurt, no matter what the reason.

When you ask about whether to make a big deal out of it, can you say more about what you mean? Do you mean make a big out of it to the mediator? To SD? To biomom?

[enlighten me]

Your stepdaughter writing horrible reminded me of a murder case I just read about. The husband supposedly left a suicide note which had a glaring spelling mistake in it. The police got the wife to write this word down and she spelt word the same way as in the note. This is what led to her arrest and subsequent charges for murder being pressed.

Excuse my rambling but I wonder if the mediator could be asked before talking to sd if she would get her to write horrible as you don't believe she could spell it and that you think her mum made her write these notes.

It could backfire if sd spells it right though.

[ForeverDad]

Your stepdaughter writing horrible reminded me of a murder case I just read about. The husband supposedly left a suicide note which had a glaring spelling mistake in it. The police got the wife to write this word down and she spelt word the same way as in the note. This is what led to her arrest and subsequent charges for murder being pressed.

Excuse my rambling but I wonder if the mediator could be asked before talking to sd if she would get her to write horrible as you don't believe she could spell it and that you think her mum made her write these notes.

It could backfire if sd spells it right though.

Nice idea!  Rather than writing one word, though, it should be several words so that one word doesn't stand out.  However, it may not reveal whether (1) mother told her to write it, (2) worked SD into a state to be willing to write it or (3) mother simply helped her spell it.

[livednlearned]

You are both treating it like evidence? 

[enlighten me]

You are both treating it like evidence? 

If mum is getting her to do it to discredit step mum and dad then it is evidence.

In these situations children can be manipulated into saying and doing things that they don't agree with. You cannot rely on the child to tell the truth so you have to figure out if it is true. My ex wife told my sons that if they didn't say or do things then I would take them away from her. She used this fear to manipulate them.

[livednlearned]

Mediation is different than court, no? If this is treated like evidence, who is judging?

Unless I'm not understanding, bravhart1 -- is the mediator able to adjudicate?

I'm not dismissing the severity of PA. It goes hand-in-hand with BPD.

I'm questioning whether it's worth giving it any merit in terms of mediation.

[ForeverDad]

LnL asks a good question.  What is the purpose to defend yourself to the mediator?  Is it to demonstrate that her lengthy laundry list of claims has very little of truth in it, is untrue in many respects and distorts what little truth it does contain?  Maybe just a few examples will be enough for the mediator to discern that mother is posturing with basically no actionable evidence?  (You may not want to counter everything in case she would then dream up new allegations later for court or the custody evaluator.)

As for young SD being manipulated and overwhelmed, here's what I wrote of my past experiences:

My son was almost 4 when we separated, she took him to the hospital, also hosting a regional child abuse center as well, and despite her prepping him, he never really recited her allegations or "suspicions" ("My son told me... ." until he was 6 years old.  We were nearing the end of our divorce process, she had just raged at our pediatrician's staff and had been 'fired'.  Probably when she got the "withdrawal of services" letter from the pediatrician's office - she was custodial parent in the temporary order during the two year divorce so only she got the letter - she then had to figure out how to (again) try to make me look worse than her.  So she took him to the hospital and she finally got him to recite her claim that I had become enraged at him and beat him on his shins of all places.   The nurse who interviewed him said they appeared to be normal bruises for a very active boy which he clearly was but since he said it therefore the matter was reported to CPS.  Later he told me he didn't know how he got them but then said it must have been when he was on the monkey bars.  With his mother.  CPS interviewed him at what they considered a neutral location - his kindergarten school.  They called me in but after I explained what I knew, even playing a couple recordings where son was trying to show me his bruise and saying he wasn't sure how he got it, they told me they just wanted to hear my side.  The case was closed.

So I pondered how to address it with him.  I found out he didn't realize he had lied.  Our poor confused son, then still living mostly with his mother, didn't know the difference between truth and, um, less than truth.  (I suspect many children influenced by acting-out disordered parents tend to be a bit slow to make progress with observations and conclusions.)  So I found a children's book that dealt with the issue of honesty.  It was out of print, so I bought a used copy.  It was a Clifford the Big Red Dog book:  T-Bone Tells the Truth.  You could see the light bulb going off in his head as we read it and discussed it together.

Another children's book that my son absolutely loved, he laughed so hard snot came out his nose, What Dads Can't Do by Douglas Wood.  Don't worry, you mothers reading this, there's also a book for moms too, What Moms Can't Do.

In time he got used to the schedule and time away from me.  At age 9 he had had equal time with me for over two years and I was seeking custody.  When Ex found out a Guardian ad Litem was assigned to be his lawyer, at the very next exchange he came back to me, first words, "I want to keep 50/50".  I knew he was just parroting, but by that age he was developing a sense of "fairness" that she appealed to.

I listed the above to show how my child's reactions morphed over the years as he grew older and how my ex used them to benefit her.

[bravhart1]

To clarify, there is NO way SD7 can spell most words, she is smart but not brilliantly ahead of her class. She can read pretty well with help, she could spell dog, and dad and simple words. She could not spell my name in a million years and yet she did. My SD even told me a few weeks ago that she was writing some stuff that would "help" mom in court. There is no doubt about the notes being dictated and helped along by mom. I don't think thats in question. If mediator wanted to ask SD7's teacher the teacher would be able to vouch as to SD's abilities.


DH would like to speak about the notes with mediator as a way to show the drastic lengths BPDm has and will continue to go to to defame us to the court and to SD. I'm trying though to find a way to frame it for mediator. What type of manipulation would this be?

Much like making a kid write a hundred times 'I will not speak out in class", I feel like this goes beyond the usual hateful speech and is using a reinforcement technique?

IDK, i'm disgusted with it all. What a nightmare this all is :'(

[enlighten me]

Hi Bravehart

Could you show the letters to SD's teacher and have her write her opinion of if she is capable of writing it on her own?

Her far out accusations will go against her. Its easier to play the victim with small hard to prove things than lots of outlandish ones.

[livednlearned]

The mediator is not a judge, correct?

It is an awful feeling to be maligned, and that can kick into gear behaviors based on fear and a desire to JADE - justify, argue, defend, explain.

It's very common in divorce and custody battles for feelings to run high. Someone files a divorce claim filled with all the things he or she did during the marriage. The counter claim comes back filled with even more things that happened during the marriage. It's two people in the worst emotional pain of their lives, filled with anger and hurt and betrayal.

Judges don't read these documents. Lawyers don't take these documents seriously. They know it is human nature to be hurt, and they hope and trust that these two grown adults will heal with time. They talk to their clients about the things that are actionable, and then they strategize.

The same thing happens whenever a third-party comes into our cases. We want to prove to them what is true, what isn't true. I'm not saying that's wrong, or bad, only that we can easily get dragged into JADE-ing when we don't see the forest for the trees. You want the 35,000 foot view and bring everything up to that level. That's the winning position. Often, we let ourselves be dragged down to ground level where we lose sight of the battle. This is where we lose. As my dad likes to say, you can't win a pissing match with a skunk.

If the mediator is not able to adjudicate, and no binding agreement is expected, and this is only a procedural step toward going to court, save your strength. Biomom is getting you jacked up and tipping her hand about how low she is willing to stoop, and how desperate she is, to make her case.

Use this mediation to collect information and try to remain as neutral as you can. Respond, don't react.

She has hooked you good here. There may be much bigger things to focus on that are much more meaningful in court instead of the words of a 7 year old child.

LnL

[Thunderstruck]

The mediator is not a judge, correct?

It is an awful feeling to be maligned, and that can kick into gear behaviors based on fear and a desire to JADE - justify, argue, defend, explain.

It's very common in divorce and custody battles for feelings to run high. Someone files a divorce claim filled with all the things he or she did during the marriage. The counter claim comes back filled with even more things that happened during the marriage. It's two people in the worst emotional pain of their lives, filled with anger and hurt and betrayal.

Judges don't read these documents. Lawyers don't take these documents seriously. They know it is human nature to be hurt, and they hope and trust that these two grown adults will heal with time. They talk to their clients about the things that are actionable, and then they strategize.

The same thing happens whenever a third-party comes into our cases. We want to prove to them what is true, what isn't true. I'm not saying that's wrong, or bad, only that we can easily get dragged into JADE-ing when we don't see the forest for the trees. You want the 35,000 foot view and bring everything up to that level. That's the winning position. Often, we let ourselves be dragged down to ground level where we lose sight of the battle. This is where we lose. As my dad likes to say, you can't win a pissing match with a skunk.

If the mediator is not able to adjudicate, and no binding agreement is expected, and this is only a procedural step toward going to court, save your strength. Biomom is getting you jacked up and tipping her hand about how low she is willing to stoop, and how desperate she is, to make her case.

Use this mediation to collect information and try to remain as neutral as you can. Respond, don't react.

She has hooked you good here. There may be much bigger things to focus on that are much more meaningful in court instead of the words of a 7 year old child.

LnL

I second what LnL said. 

I will confess that we haven't been to mediation yet, but I used to be one in high school and I sat in on one in dependency court. From everything I've read and heard from other people the mediator's job is to be an impartial/neutral third party. The mediator doesn't use these crage documents to decide who gets what. They are supposed to just help the two sides work together to come to an agreement that they can both live with. I think even their report to the judge will only say what the two parties agreed to and what was not agreed. I don't think they report to the court on anything else that happens in mediation.

If this was submitted to the court, it would be a slightly bigger deal. But honestly, the judge doesn't have time to read 57 pages of crage. It's not a strong position for her to submit a bunch of garbage anyway. Judges don't like it and they won't read it. They just want the bullet points. If there are a bunch of petty, unresolved issues then that's for CEs or Ts or PCs or whatever to evaluate and report.

It's a common strategy of the BPD to lob a bunch of accusations. You spend your time defending yourself and proving it isn't true then you lose sight of why you're there. Put on the blinders. Focus your time on the kids and what you think is best for them and why. Spend your energy strategizing on how to get what you want out of mediation. That'll be more helpful than disproving garbage. Her finger-pointing and you saying "I'm here to get down to business" is a better position to be in rather than her finger pointing and you saying "nuh uh, that's not true, you cray".

However, keep these lies in your back pocket for later. They can be helpful in a CE or with Ts or PCs.

Also remember, SD7 is in "survival mode". She will say whatever and do whatever she needs to do to "survive" her relationship with her BPDmom. She doesn't get unconditional love. It's very conditional. And this week/month, the condition for her receiving love was to write these papers. It's very upsetting.  :'( But don't take it as having a shred of truth as to how SD7 feels about you.

[bravhart1]

just to clarify, we are going to mediation at the request of the judge. the family court services mediation is a bit different than typical mediation. We aren't going to resolve our differences per say, he will listen to both sides, interview teachers, therapists, and day care personel and make a recomendation to the court (the judge), the judge will 99.99% rule to adopt the recomendation and if you don't agree you can ask for a trial to show why the mediator got it wrong (that trial is about a $50,000 endeavor).

So it is important to be factual, and concise and tell a good all inclusive story about your situation and what you want to see happen, for example we are asking for BPDM to be in supervised visits. Last year in a CE the CE put her in court ordered therapy with certain benchmarks to meet to gain more time with SD.

She went to about 10 visits if that, and her therapist said they made NO headway at all and she quit it anyway. No benchmarks have been met, and if truth be told, she took those bendchmarks and went in the other direction, ramping up the behaviours she was told to discontinue, like alientation.

The mediator wil spend one hour with each parent, read our declarations, ours was two pages, hers wass 57.

He will spend the rest of his time calling and interviewing the professionals in th case and try to figure out the real deal and make a decision. It's hard to imagine that he would not see these accusations and papers submitted by BPDm with SD's writing as anything but a gross manipualtion, but if we have one hour to put our thoughts in his ear, and BPDm is a VERY good actor, then I want to have a rock solid way to frame this type of thing that will stick. I thnk having SD write this down reeks of alienation and coaching, I want to make sure mediator see it that way too.

I just don't know the words, or aliention types well enough to explain it.

And also, if this doesn't work, we are pretty much done. This will have to be our last court appearance with a L, we are out of money and if they don't get it now, they never will anyway. We have gone through hundreds of thousands of dollars, savings, IRA's and credit cards. That's not an exaggeration

We have to move on and know that we did the best we could, but at some point we also need to lead a life that isn't SD focused. I have my own children, and we both have lives that have been back burnered to much. This is our final shot. Pray for medator to "get it".

[Thunderstruck]

just to clarify, we are going to mediation at the request of the judge. the family court services mediation is a bit different than typical mediation. We aren't going to resolve our differences per say, he will listen to both sides, interview teachers, therapists, and day care personel and make a recomendation to the court (the judge), the judge will 99.99% rule to adopt the recomendation and if you don't agree you can ask for a trial to show why the mediator got it wrong (that trial is about a $50,000 endeavor).

Ohhh, ok. Then I take back what I said.   This sounds more like an evaluation than a mediation.

So it is important to be factual, and concise and tell a good all inclusive story about your situation and what you want to see happen, for example we are asking for BPDM to be in supervised visits. Last year in a CE the CE put her in court ordered therapy with certain benchmarks to meet to gain more time with SD.

She went to about 10 visits if that, and her therapist said they made NO headway at all and she quit it anyway. No benchmarks have been met, and if truth be told, she took those bendchmarks and went in the other direction, ramping up the behaviours she was told to discontinue, like alientation.

This sounds good to say to the mediator!

Will the mediator talk to SD directly?

Did the CE identify the alienation, or name it specifically? If these behaviors have already been identified, then your job for mediation is easy.

All the people the mediator is going to contact will say that you and SD get along positively and lovingly, right?

What if you say... .The previously identified BPDmom's alienation behaviors have not been remedied (neither in therapy nor on her own). This can be seen in (example example) and in the declaration where BPDmom is badmouthing and coaching SD to write negative letters which places her in the middle of the dispute. Then state what effect this push-pull behavior has on SD and how your plan (supervised visits) would benefit SD? I feel like that would turn the discussion from having to defend yourself back to highlighting BPDmom's bad behaviors and fixing it, which is the reason why you're there.

Even if an evaluator doesn't "get" alienation, they do "get" that placing a child in the middle of a custody dispute and badmouthing another parent is not good for the child's emotional well being.

[livednlearned]

This will have to be our last court appearance with a L, we are out of money and if they don't get it now, they never will anyway. We have gone through hundreds of thousands of dollars, savings, IRA's and credit cards. That's not an exaggeration

I hear you. I stopped keeping track after $100K.

Too painful.  :'(

her therapist said they made NO headway at all and she quit it anyway. No benchmarks have been met, and if truth be told, she took those bendchmarks and went in the other direction, ramping up the behaviours she was told to discontinue, like alientation.

This is the 35,000 foot view. You have the advantage here, it sounds like. The thing working against you (all of us with mentally ill co-parents) is that it is emotionally painful for people -- judges -- to end relationships between kids and parents. It's a good bad thing. My judge, when he terminated visitation, took 8 minutes of silence with his head down, not saying a word. He asked us to give him time. When he was ready to speak, he looked straight up to the ceiling. I think he was praying. These are tough decisions, they go against the grain of what it means to be family. Your decision before the mediator and judge might not be as severe, even so they are in the ballpark. Judges want parents to be parents. They give them second, third, fourth chances because it's human nature to want to see families (kids and parents) remain in relationship to each other.

It's easy to be cynical about all of this, and I also think this stuff is so hard for the relative strangers who try to understand what's happening in our cases.  

Do you think it's worth disproving the letter your SD7 wrote? It sounds like biomom is going to be on her heels from start to finish, and have a lot of explaining to do. It's hard to know what other people will do or think, and it's also likely that the mediator will see the 57 pages as a  

Normal people don't do that. It seems like a hail mary  

LnL

[enlighten me]

I think disproving the sd letters is a huge thing. Not only does it display manipulation and parental alienation it shows that the mother is not a reliable parent. How can she be trusted to do the right thing with dad if she is willing to try and turn her daughter against him.

How can anything she says be trusted if she is willing to go this far?

This in my opinion is the keystone that can pull down her whole case.

Rather than deny all 57 pages one item at a time you need a knock out punch.

Theres no point arguing that for example you are on time for pick up or you help with the homework or watever trivial things have been said. These fall by the wayside compared the bigger issue of turning a child against a parent.

What might be worth trying is for dad to speak to sd before the mediation and say "do you realise if they believe what you have written I may not be allowed to see you again"? She may not realise the gravity of the situation

[Thunderstruck]

I think disproving the sd letters is a huge thing. Not only does it display manipulation and parental alienation it shows that the mother is not a reliable parent. How can she be trusted to do the right thing with dad if she is willing to try and turn her daughter against him.

Yeah, but disproving the SD letters isn't very easy to do. Either you have to get BPDmom to admit that she coached SD, or you have to get SD to admit that BPDmom coached her (but if you did, couldn't BPDmom just say that you're the one coaching SD to lie about whether or not she wrote the letters? Again, it places SD in the middle and it's all just a mess).

If you make the claim that the letters were coached (with or without a teacher's opinion of SDs writing or any other evidence) then it's your word versus BPDmom's word.

If you highlight the fact that BPDmom has been showing allllllllllll these alienating behaviors that have been proven by mental health experts (Ts, CEs) and then you make the claim that the letters were coached, then it's believable.

[enlighten me]

Maybe voicing your concern to the mediator that sd has been coached and that the letters are of a level that you don't feel she is academically capable of writing on her own. Then telling the mediator that you wanted to discuss them with sd but didn't want to be accused of manipulating her but you are worried that she isn't aware of the potential gravity of them and has done it to keep mum happy.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like alienation is already a documented, ongoing concern? This might be easy to address without the sleuthing involved. Because of things like: "Your dad says you're too stupid to write the word HORRIBLE." If we don't have to put our kids in the middle, that's the best way. Dragging SD into mediation in a way where biomom will likely escalate is not great for SD.

bravhart1, have you met the mediator already?

I felt acutely aware of being under scrutiny in my interactions with court professionals. It look a lot of self-possession to avoid the ground-level swinging.

I know we all have different cases with different levels of quality in the professionals involved. I also think when you can keep things at the 35K level, you signal to the professionals that you are on their team -- you want to keep things reasonable too.

A reasonable response to a coached letter might be, "In addition to all these other things, including and in particular a documented pattern of non-compliance with the court order, we find the 57 pages of false allegations and unfounded accusations to be a sign biomom is throwing everything and anything to see what sticks. Do you have any concerns? We of course are alarmed by the false accusations, we also are used to this, and are willing to disprove anything if this is the time to do that."

[FamilyLaw]

Further up the thread, someone recommended getting a declaration from SD's teacher about her ability to have written and spelled those notes.  If I were your lawyer or Judge, I would find that very compelling.  Also, make sure the therapist knows about the notes, so that he/she can comment if the mediator asks about SD's ability to have written them.

[bravhart1]

 Thanks guys for all your thoughts, sorry I've been m.i.a I've been at work.

mediators do not speak to the child in these types of cases, unless they are over say 13, 14 years old.

We wouldn't discuss these letters with SD anyway, we don't ever talk about the court case or about what happens at bio moms house. SD already is so twisted up in knots with moms manipulation each and every week that the poor kid's cheese would slide right off her cracker if we started it bringing it up too.

The mediator will be speaking with the teacher after speaking with us, so we can request he ask the teacher of the veracity of the writing.

we meet early next week. we will have the weekend to prepare the final things we want to say. I probably won't even be there, it'll just be DH alone for an hour then BPDm mom alone for an hour. There are no documents allowed to be shown or given.

We aren't asking the court to take SD away permanetly, just for a period of time until she can stop alienating dad and bravhart. We are asking for a special master to be put in place and that be the way she gets visits back. The CE asked for a special master to be put in place as one of his benchmarks, and the judge ordered it, only BPDm won't sign the intake forms. We've gone back to court to make her sign them several times, finally the judge said he would sign for her if she didn't when she then said she wouldn't be able to pay for it (though she previously said she could pay) so we've even paid for the whole retainer for her  

She still has not signed the intake forms (she is adamantly opposed to having anyone have any authority over her)

So one of the things we hope the mediator will understand is that placing BPDm in supervised will be a stick to make her try for the carrot of getting better. It's all a very fair plan actually considering how awful BPDm has been to us, but if we are very clear on one thing its that this isn't about us it's about SD7. We know she needs her mom, we just think she needs a healthier mom than the one she has gotten so far.

[enlighten me]

Most pwBPD are in denial about there illness so it is unlikely that mom will get treatment and if she does it is not likely that she will comply with it. My ex wife has seen three or four therapists and each time has come away saying theres nothing wrong with her and its all everyone elses fault.

[livednlearned]

So one of the things we hope the mediator will understand is that placing BPDm in supervised will be a stick to make her try for the carrot of getting better. It's all a very fair plan actually considering how awful BPDm has been to us, but if we are very clear on one thing its that this isn't about us it's about SD7. We know she needs her mom, we just think she needs a healthier mom than the one she has gotten so far.

This is what happened in our case, with slightly different details. Judge terminated visitation temporarily until N/BPDx complied with the order (anger management, substance abuse treatment, and an MMPI-2).

It was too much for N/BPDx.

He is gone.

The PA is over, and my son is not nearly as fragile. He was developing BPD traits -- some are still there, moreso with others than with me.

The grief is much greater -- he no longer has a story he can tell himself about his dad that protects him. It's like we traded one kind of emotional pain for another.  :'(

If it comes to that for you... .one mistake I made is to interpret S14's lack of emotional distress as a sign he was doing ok. Things were sort of at a plateau with his therapist so we stopped going. Then, about 6-9 months (can't remember exactly) later he came home with suicidal ideation. We ended up working with a psychiatrist, too, because S14's anxiety was through the roof.

I hope biomom can pull it together. That's still not easy for you or SD7, it's probably the best-case scenario.

[bravhart1]

^^yes, thats kind of it in a nutshell. We ARE already seeing BPD traits in SD and we want to take her a psychiatrist. SD's therapist brought this up a few months ago after a very dangerous incident at school.

Of course BPDm was not in favor it, but now that it seems iminent, its her idea, and says that we are opposing it,  instead of the other way around. Now she want to control it, manage it etc.

She has even generously offered to quit her job and take SD full time so she can "take better" care of SD than she's getting now in our care. Of course she would need us to "step up" and pay her a sizable amount of child support to cover her living expenses and dr bills, but since she has also inflated our  incomes out of thin air, ( she claims our yearly salaries are almost triple  than what they are in her declaration)   we should have plently to go around. 

Wouldn't that be just a BPD fantasy? DH and I work 24/7 to pay her living expenses and she gets SD 100% and WE get supervised. (not me being sarcastic, she actually put this in her declaration as her request)

Meeting with therapist today to discuss SD. Will check back later.

[ForeverDad]

She has even generously offered to quit her job and take SD full time so she can "take better" care of SD than she's getting now in our care. Of course she would need us to "step up" and pay her a sizable amount of child support to cover her living expenses and dr bills, but since she has also inflated our  incomes out of thin air, ( she claims our yearly salaries are almost triple  than what they are in her declaration)   we should have plenty to go around. 

Wouldn't that be just a BPD fantasy? DH and I work 24/7 to pay her living expenses and she gets SD 100% and WE get supervised. (not me being sarcastic, she actually put this in her declaration as her request)

There is an unbalanced extreme of entitlement and projection in our cases.  Note the projection here.  I can imagine... ."Mr. Mediator, our child's mother is seeking to have me be a supervised parent.  Based on her behaviors over past years, I've come to identify such claims as Projections onto me that she has done, contemplated or apply to her.  Once I recognized that behavior pattern, it helped me realize what I was facing.  In this respect, if she is seeking me to be limited to supervised parenting, I can see how it is a projection of a status she herself may need.  And thus far the professionals in our case also have concerns about her parenting."

[bravhart1]

Yes, that seems like the way to go. T today said that they would also be explaining to the mediator about the projections she has been seeing in BPDm and the accusations she saw in the declaration. To that end some of the physical abuse accusations concern T , as we have all been wondering if BPDm has been "losing" her temper physically with SD7. SD7 has been more shut down than usual, and has had some bruises that look like finger marks on her upper arms. This has happened twice, and SD has been told to say that her teacher did it (which no one believes).

Therapist also BTW asked SD to draw a picture in her office today of all her parents. Then she had her write the names above each person. T brought the drawing out after the session to show me (SD did NOT know how to spell my name, not even close) She pointed this out to me to say that she would be letting mediator know that BPDm absolutely had SD sit down and dictated those notes. T said she had never in all her years seen a parent have the child write down things about a parent or step parent and submit it in the court documents. She thinks it's pretty disgusting. 

Here's hoping the mediator sees it that way too.

[bravhart1]

Mediation went well. He spoke to DH and said that he would be speaking to the other professionals, i.e. Drs, therapists, and teachers. When DH told mediator he has been trying to get BPDm to get help  so SD7 could have a healthier mom, mediator said " that's not in your control". Seems like he gets it.

He asked for no explanation about anything she wrote in her "declaration" ( which was full of bs), so I guess he's not buying into that. He also said he would not need to speak with DH again, even after he spoke to BPDm, so I'm guessing there isn't any negotiation or clarification he thinks he will need, which one could perhaps read something optimistic into, if one were so inclined

On another note, SD7 was beside herself most of the weekend. She apparently was worried about all that BPDm had written. (Did she read it to her?) she also wanted to make sure she wasn't in the doghouse with me because of the things mom had her write down. I told her I absolutely understood she had to write those things to keep the peace with mom, and that I didn't feel hurt or believe that SD meant any of it. She seemed relieved for the rest of the day, then had some odd behaviour later, almost like guilt, idk.

Then at bedtime she was very agitated and told me that she hoped that she would not have to return to BPDm's house, as BPDm has been abusive, she went into details about screaming, tantrums and threats, she started to say spanking and stopped herself almost as though she knows that is the one thing she can't say, that BPDm is violent. But she used the word "vicious" which I thought was unusual for a 7 yr old.

She said BPDm told her she hated her and would not let her forget any of her past mistakes, reminding her of all the bad things she had done over the years from the time she was a baby till now. I just listened and didn't comment too much other than to say I'm sorry that must be hard, and it sounds like you are hurt. I didn't doubt her truthfulness, didn't see it as manipulation as much as just a vomiting of stuff she had been locking away. I told her we were trying to work with the judges, etc to get mom to understand she needs to stop making things so hard and she told me I should forget it, that BPDm would never change because she's never wrong.

I'm speechless.

[enlighten me]

Kids can surprise us with how much they understand. I remember when my son was that age and he came out with "don't listen to mum she tells lies, she's a liar". Up until that point I thought my boys were ignorant to what she was like.