Understanding who our ex is or was

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

"How can we truly know pwBPD when they themselves don't even know who they are? No sense of self, mirroring, etc."

I read the above listed comment on the Leaving board today. It reminds me that I really don't know or probably ever will who my ex was. We were married 4 years and went through about everything imaginable together though.

I would be interested to know how members here arrive at an understanding of who their ex is or was?

Possible factors to consider in arriving at a determination of who they are/were:

Who the seemed to be at the beginning of the relationship

Who they seemed to be at the middle of the relationship

Who they seemed to be at the end of the relationship

Who they seemed to be with their friends?

Who they seemed to be with their family

Who they seemed to be with their coworkers

Who they seemed to be with strangers ( Random people - such as strangers on the street, grocery store, cashier at McDonalds etc... .etc... .)

Who they seemed to be when alone

Maybe I'm wrong but I think in my case that the closest thing to knowing "basically" who she was would be by remembering her interactions with strangers. The reason for that I think is that she didn't have to pretend with strangers and could just be herself? She was a nice friendly person to strangers always unless they had slighted her then she would tell me she wanted to hurt them and I would sometimes have to actually restrain her from trying to proceed in doing that.

Thoughts?

[AwakenedOne]

"How can we truly know pwBPD when they themselves don't even know who they are? No sense of self, mirroring, etc."

I read the above listed comment on the Leaving board today. It reminds me that I really don't know or probably ever will who my ex was. We were married 4 years and went through about everything imaginable together though.

I would be interested to know how members here arrive at an understanding of who their ex is or was?

Possible factors to consider in arriving at a determination of who they are/were:

Who the seemed to be at the beginning of the relationship

Who they seemed to be at the middle of the relationship

Who they seemed to be at the end of the relationship

Who they seemed to be with their friends?

Who they seemed to be with their family

Who they seemed to be with their coworkers

Who they seemed to be with strangers ( Random people - such as strangers on the street, grocery store, cashier at McDonalds etc... .etc... .)

Who they seemed to be when alone

Maybe I'm wrong but I think in my case that the closest thing to knowing "basically" who she was would be by remembering her interactions with strangers. The reason for that I think is that she didn't have to pretend with strangers and could just be herself? She was a nice friendly person to strangers always unless they had slighted her then she would tell me she wanted to hurt them and I would sometimes have to actually restrain her from trying to proceed in doing that.

Thoughts?

[C.Stein]

My ex was at times almost night and day difference between how she was around me and how she was around everyone else. 

That person who she was with everyone else (for the most part) wasn't so much who she really is though but rather who she could be and wanted to be seen as.  It was her best side, her shining potential coming to the surface if you will.   That side of her was who I fell in love with. 

Certainly the mask slipped more and more the closer people get to her and I was the "lucky" one who saw it pretty much completely off.  She did tell me on several occasions I would never see her dark side ... .I wonder now just how much of that darkness seeped into her outward sides and what exactly that darkness was composed of.   

I remember her telling me at her lowest moments that I didn't understand her and perhaps she was right.  At the time I thought I knew her better than she knew herself because I could see cause and effect in relation to how she was feeling.  In hindsite I think maybe she might have been right and I really didn't have the first clue.

[cosmonaut]

One of the things that has never changed for me is my concept of who my ex is.  Learning about BPD has given so much more context, but it hasn't ever changed who I believe she is.  I struggle with this here, because sometimes I feel so out of step with what others here experienced.  I at times wonder if my ex even has BPD at all.  In some ways, she is very unusual.  Such a hermit.  So shut off from life.  So distant from everyone.  I never saw the mirroring.  I never saw the fluid identity.  What I saw was a refusal to allow anyone to draw close.  And I think that must be unusual among pwBPD - people who crave attachment.

I don't think many people know my ex.  Very few, actually.  And that's because she does wear a mask to the world at large.  She has walls within walls within walls.  I have never met someone who craves so much time alone.  She doesn't do the internet.  Rarely texts.  :)oesn't go out.  And yet she is unfailingly kind, warm, and courteous to strangers and all the people she keeps at such distance.  At her work, the girls would beg her to come out with them - and she never did.  Not one single time our entire relationship.  She told me that she has so few good days when she was feeling well that she would rather just spend them with me.  She had so many people who wanted to be her friend, but she just wouldn't let them.  They were never allowed in.  At the same time, she took such tender care of the people in her care at work.  She had rave reviews from her employer and coworkers.  She had numerous letters that were written by patients to formally thank her for the depth of her care.  She was an angel to a homeless man that she and I were working with to try and help him get on his feet.  She was so kind to him.

None of them ever saw who she was beneath that mask, however.  The pain.  The shame.  The addictions.  The eating disorder.  The self-hatred.  The incredible sadness of an incredibly damaged soul.  Nor did they see the depth of her faith.  The strength of her spirit.  The passion of her love.  Her hopes.  Her fears.  Her dreams.  All of these things she shares with no one.

I still feel so incredibly privileged to have been allowed in.  To know the real her.  I know she gave me a precious gift.  She told me as much.  She told me she never trusts anyone.  Once while she was reflecting back, she said that when she met me she just had this feeling that she could trust me, and she couldn't explain why.  She said she felt safe.  Like she could talk to me.  And she couldn't believe it, because she doesn't feel safe with men.  Flattery?  Maybe.  But I don't think so.  I think what she said aligns with everything else about her.  All the evidence says that she really doesn't trust anyone.  That she doesn't feel safe with anyone.

For me, the question of who my ex is does not trouble me.  What really troubles me still - even haunts me in a way - is how carelessly I handled that emotional safety that she once felt.  Perhaps our breakup was in the cards from the start.  It's possible.  But I can also see so many times when I hurt her, let her down, broke her emotional trust.  And I regret it.  I see now that any relationship has to have emotional trust and that once it is gone there is no saving the relationships unless it can be rekindled.   It is the lifeblood of relationships.  We have to feel emotionally safe and accepted with our partner.

[Fr4nz]

My ex was at times almost night and day difference between how she was around me and how she was around everyone else.  

That person who she was with everyone else (for the most part) wasn't so much who she really is though but rather who she could be and wanted to be seen as.  It was her best side, her shining potential coming to the surface if you will.   That side of her was who I fell in love with.

That's her false self, i.e., the self used to "protect" their true self. Anyway, we all do this, up to some extent.

Certainly the mask slipped more and more the closer people get to her and I was the "lucky" one who saw it pretty much completely off.  She did tell me on several occasions I would never see her dark side ... .I wonder now just how much of that darkness seeped into her outward sides and what exactly that darkness was composed of.  

I remember her telling me at her lowest moments that I didn't understand her and perhaps she was right.  At the time I thought I knew her better than she knew herself because I could see cause and effect in relation to how she was feeling.  In hindsite I think maybe she might have been right and I really didn't have the first clue.

I can relate. When I was with her, I was able to discern very distinct patterns in her behaviours, and I thought I was able to understand her, at least partially... .problem is, piecing everything together was simply impossible at that time, since this requires a non-trivial amount of psychological knowledge I simply didn't have.

Heck, even therapists sometimes have problems to understand and manage BPDs... . 

Don't beat yourself up on this.

[Fr4nz]

I still feel so incredibly privileged to have been allowed in.  To know the real her.  I know she gave me a precious gift.  She told me as much.  She told me she never trusts anyone.  Once while she was reflecting back, she said that when she met me she just had this feeling that she could trust me, and she couldn't explain why.  She said she felt safe.  Like she could talk to me.  And she couldn't believe it, because she doesn't feel safe with men.  Flattery?  Maybe.  But I don't think so.  I think what she said aligns with everything else about her.  All the evidence says that she really doesn't trust anyone.  That she doesn't feel safe with anyone.

Since BPDs are "disconnected" from their true self, they have these "fusional" fantasies to find the perfect partner (that's why she let you in, initially). However, at some point the disorder wins, so fear of engulfment and trust issues kick in. You really couldn't do anything, don't beat yourself up on this.

And yes, many BPDs are indeed amazing individuals: full of potential and talents, yet with huge psychological issues which make relationships with them unbearable in the long term.

It is so hard to accept they're both extremely good and bad, isn't it?

[enlighten me]

The only glimpse at who my exs really are is the things that remain constant throughout all the relationships.

With my exgf her music taste will change depending on what her current partner is in to. Yet music is a constant and she will revert back to a particular genre.

With my ex wife exercise and yo yo dieting is a constant and to me shows how unhappy with her self image she truly is.

There are many things my exs wanted to be and certain lifestyles they want to live. They never seem to last but little things do remain constant.

[Didntdeservethat]

Awakened

You question is such an interesting one, my ex ptrBPD, bp and scitzophenic gf was almost different people in all situations . We fit the three stages of BPD allbeit that at the end  it appeared purely as a play for financial control.


Who they seemed to be at the beginning of the relationship

Alluring, sexual focused on me, outgoing, optimistic, interesting, high functioning, confident, open minded to spiritual and personal growth, euforic

Who they seemed to be at the middle of the relationship

depressed, insecure, untrusting, lying, constant acusations, non functioning, non reflective or ability to ascept any criticism from within or outside relationship, sexuality only when in public

Who they seemed to be at the end of the relationship

confrontational, reactive, aggressive, frustrated, unhappy, assasinating my character to all, in constant need of adoration physically (gifts) selfish

Who they seemed to be with their friends

Outgoing, confident, selfcentred, sexual, but also insecure and quiet if around my intellectual friends as opposed to her socialite friends, false

Who they seemed to be with their family  - insecure, false, withdrawn

Who they seemed to be with their coworkers - (didn't and wouldn't work)

Who they seemed to be with strangers ( Random people - such as strangers on the street,

grocery store, cashier at McDonalds etc... .etc... .)  - false outgoing, dellusional

Who they seemed to be when alone - insecure, needy, unhappy, demanding and untrusting

In the end many people saw her trying to make a play for financial gain however if i read BPD its more of disorder not so much of a premeditated action. So i a m quiet confused where to categorize her. I understand she is not well but i would very much appreciate a better understanding of what that 3yrs of my life was about. It makes no sense

[Mutt]

I radically accepted my ex wife. She is who she is. I try to not react when she's unstable and she acts condescending, controlling and inflexible. I think that the most difficult part that I have to remind myself with is her black and white thinking and there's no middle ground.

She doesn't self reflect and doesn't see how her choices and actions impacts her life and loved ones in her life ( kids ) I see a history of broken relationships,  emotional immaturity by blaming others and subconsciously wanting others to rescue her because of living by fast and hard rules and lack of impulse control.

I see her as the mother of my children, I don't have obligations to her because we're divorced which gave me an incredible sense of freedom. My kids are young and they have unconditional love for her, they see her as mom. In order for me to have peace for my family with my kids, I give myself compassion and show compassion for my kids mom.  

[CharWood]

Nope. Borderlines are very insecure. They will put up a mask with strangers... .they want people to see them in the best light... .they want to present their "false self" to the world.

In the case of an untreated borderline: Your ex will show you who they truly are in the devalue and discard phases. period. unfortunately, they are driven by their mental illness... .their borderline personality disorder IS who they are. If you want to get to the core of who they are, then observe them when they are dysregulated... .they are children in an adult body. That is emotionally where they are at... scared, broken, defiant children who do not think about the consequences of their actions. It is very sad in a way. However, due to the danger and harm they cause to others if they are not seeking treatment, it is sometimes hard to feel sorry for them, since they refuse to recognize their issue fully and help themselves.

A borderline who is in therapy VOLUNTARILY often grows and discovers who they are through healing their past and learning constructive coping mechanisms and healthy behavioral patterns... so basically they do not have a "self" until this happens.

[cosmonaut]

Since BPDs are "disconnected" from their true self, they have these "fusional" fantasies to find the perfect partner (that's why she let you in, initially). However, at some point the disorder wins, so fear of engulfment and trust issues kick in. You really couldn't do anything, don't beat yourself up on this.

What first tipped me off to BPD was that my ex seemingly broke up with me out of nowhere, without reason (she said herself that this had nothing to do with anything I had done, she still loves me, thinks that I was an amazing boyfriend, thanked me for how much I had made her feel safe and loved), and then went completely silent.  One of the last things she ever said to me was "we'll talk soon", and we never did.  That is still one of the most distinctly BPD behaviors.  I increasingly wonder if I am incorrectly seeing BPD when she is a better fit for complex PTSD.  While I was with her, I had attributed her problems to PTSD.  She did too.  We had discussed it numerous times.  When I discovered about BPD, I thought I had previously been wrong.  Now I have been wondering if I was more correct initially.  In some ways she just doesn't fit the "typical" pwBPD.  Of course, everyone is unique, BPD is a spectrum disorder, and there can be comorbidity.  Still, I wonder.

One of the things that bothers me is that there wasn't the hook in forming an attachment.  In fact, she was very hesitant to form a relationship.  She told me she didn't think she'd ever get married again.  This is a woman who was in her late 20s at the time.  She said that she had so much baggage, and she felt like she was permanently damaged goods.  It took several months of my pursuing before she even went on a date with me, despite her willingness to speak pretty much daily - often late into the night.  Once that happened, we were soon very serious about each other, but she was not a seductress.  She told me later that she was very attracted to me, but was scared of being hurt again.  There was no real hook.  No desperation to attach.  She really does not let anyone in.  I've seen her very curtly shut down men who hit on her.  They screwed up.  I know I was given a rare opportunity, and it's because we had this connection for reasons neither of us truly understood.  It just happened - we clicked from the start.  So, in terms of the fusing - I just don't know.  It may have never happened.

So, this also makes me wonder if nothing could have been done.  One of the most difficult, but eye opening realizations I've (very) slowly come to realize is just how much I hurt her.  How much I messed up.  How much I allowed my issues to harm her.  I think this would have been true in any relationship.  I can't say I was a great boyfriend anymore who did nothing but shower her with love as I once thought.  A boyfriend who did everything to save our relationship.  I was doing active harm, and I didn't even see it.  Contrary to what I once thought, she had excellent reasons to leave me.

I know that ultimately this isn't about our ex.  In the end this is about us.  I still wonder what might have happened if I had been wiser.  Had better emotional intelligence.  Had dealt with my own issues better.  Was this inevitable?  I'm not sure anymore.

And yes, many BPDs are indeed amazing individuals: full of potential and talents, yet with huge psychological issues which make relationships with them unbearable in the long term.

It is so hard to accept they're both extremely good and bad, isn't it?

Yes, it is very hard to deal with loving someone who is so damaged and who struggles so much.  It broke my heart; still does.  She really is an amazing person.

Edit:

their borderline personality disorder IS who they are. If you want to get to the core of who they are, then observe them when they are dysregulated... .they are children in an adult body

This is painting black.  If pwBPD are their disorder (which I strenuously disagree with), then surely they are both the idealization and the discarding, right?  The pull as well as the push.

[OutOfEgypt]

My thought is that you're thinking too much about her  Hopefully without offending you, I'd like to point out that the endless questions and rumination, trying to make sense of her, won't really heal you or give you peace.  It just keeps us stuck on them.

The simple answer of who she is or was is... .she's all of it.  Take every experience you've had of her or witnessed of her, and put all of that together.  That's who she is.  I wouldn't say the "real" her is who she is when she's with strangers.  Lots of people can be nice to strangers -it's not that hard.  There's no history, no strain on your character to be pleasant to them, and really nothing you need from them.  It could be argued that the real nuts and bolts of who we are, relationally, only comes out in close committed relationships.  That's as true for them as it is for us, and it should give us pause to have humility... .but still to remember that we can expect the same thing from them, over and over.  In fact, with people with BPD, since there is such a pathological nature to so much of their behavior, it is perhaps even more predictable.

But again, I want to gently stress that I don't believe seeking the answer to the question is beneficial for you in detaching and healing.  What is she really like in the deepest part of her person?  That's something that only God knows and will likely ever know.  You can seek the answer forever and gain no peace about it.  The best idea you have of who she is what your entire experience told you, the entire picture, not just one piece of it.  She may wear masks and mirror and all of that, but that's her, too.  That's her doing that.  There's no mystery to that.

[Itstopsnow]

For me my experience was he presented himself as pious and tried to seem like an innocent guy. He used to be a priest. But as we progressed. I saw how immature emotionally he was, he seemed socially awkward. I thought he had asperbergers. He had sensory issues. He had no current friends but a lot of former friends from the priesthood . I overlook this all because he was 33 and I just thought he lost his 20's to the priesthood . I thought he was noble. He didn't drink or like to really go out to bars or anything like that. Which was fine with me. I'm over that scene. With strangers he acted like a good guy, always talking to the homeless when we were in NYC or Philly, giving them money. But would start to devalue me in private and say such cruel things. I saw he was a hypercritical jerk at times, but then would be crying and begging me back when I would try to leave. It was like this most of our relationship . The back and fourth between great times and his outbursts. It got worse at the end when he got a second girlfriend which I didn't know about. I realize now, I never knew him. He doesn't know who or what he is. I agree with the comment about him being a child in an adult body. But worse because he had manipulation and deceit in his mind. Children usually don't .

[lm911]

cosmonaut

Your posts have helped me a lot to understand BPD point of view and how they think. But I think that you are too focused about their feelings. I think you are still in the FOG, feeling guilty, although in most of your posts you say to the other members that they are not guilty.

[cosmonaut]

cosmonaut

Your posts have helped me a lot to understand BPD point of view and how they think. But I think that you are too focused about their feelings. I think you are still in the FOG, feeling guilty, although in most of your posts you say to the other members that they are not guilty.

Thanks, lm911.  I appreciate that.  I'm glad I've been able to help you.  Lots of members here have helped me, too.

Rather than derailing this thread, since I'm starting to get off topic, I started a new thread about the subject and have responded there.

[C.Stein]

That's her false self, i.e., the self used to "protect" their true self. Anyway, we all do this, up to some extent.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that is her false self.  I saw that side of her with me too.  In fact, that side of her was what she presented to me most of the time which is why I am having such a hard time letting her go.  That said, she did let the mask down considerably with me and she would behave in a fashion that she would not allow others to see.  Does that mean her "good" side is false?  I don't believe it is.  She just let the other side out more because she was comfortable with me, she didn't feel the need to hide from me ... .well at least for most of the relationship.

I can relate. When I was with her, I was able to discern very distinct patterns in her behaviours, and I thought I was able to understand her, at least partially... .problem is, piecing everything together was simply impossible at that time, since this requires a non-trivial amount of psychological knowledge I simply didn't have.

She didn't "play the game" for long with me.  All the parts of her personality came out pretty quickly and I accepted her for who she was as a whole.  No one is perfect, most certainly not me.  How could I judge her without judging myself or being a hypocrite?  The answer is I can't.  I can however hold her accountable for her behavior that hurt me.  This behavior I am not responsible for nor did I cause.  That said, conditions in our relationship did with certainly bring this hurtful behavior to the surface.  Would that behavior have surfaced if those conditions were not present ... .I honestly don't know.   It is however part of who she is so eventually it probably would have surfaced in one form or the other.

[CharWood]

cosmonaut:

I do not agree with you at all with your statement that I am painting a borderline who is untreated and refusing treatment to black by saying they are driven by their disorder. It is absolutely true. They have no self essentially without therapy. They have to put their childhood trauma to rest and learn to heal it while in therapy in order to take that roadblock down and self actualize - discover who their true self is. I am not saying that the fundamental essence of a borderline personality disorder sufferer is their disorder. Of course, deep down, they have "self" that is waiting to be cultivated and fostered. But, a borderline is essentially a child in an adult body, growth through therapy must occur before they find their true self. As an example, who I was as a child is a piece of who I am... .If I were to remain who I was as a child now as an adult, I am not a full person. Unless a BPD sufferer is working through their disorder, it consumes them and drives them. My ex has moments of lucidity, sure. but they are fleeting. I have probably seen tiny bits and pieces of her true self beyond the false self - the chameleon- I see for the majority of our years together.

[once removed]

i think the extent to which our former partners have a sense of self varies as much as any other trait or characteristic, though i dont have a great enough understanding to say exactly how. this is why i prefer "unstable sense of self" to "no sense of self". likely, if you walked up to a pwBPD and asked them if they realize they are an individual person, youd get a funny look.

i was friends with my ex for three years before we were together. she looks and acts very much the same right now as she did then. i recognize her completely, although i did not at all after our breakup, and i wasnt unique in that, i dont think it was bias. the point being there is some consistency. there are so many aspects that combine a "self". there are important ones that she lacks, or is inconsistent with. i was also privy to seeing how very differently she acted around others. i think the deeper you get, the less self you see.

before or during this relationship i did not understand, i was not even aware of the concept of someone lacking a "self" or sense of self. there was much about her, things that went on her head and how she experienced things, as well as the kind of behavior she was ultimately capable of, or at least that itd be done to me that i was oblivious to. its not that i didnt know her. my experience wasnt "faked", nor was it all mirroring. but its far from true to say my understanding of her was fully accurate; its still impossible for me to truly fathom an unstable sense of self. i can radically accept it, i can understand it on a clinical level, i can decently explain it, but ill never truly understand, and thats basically my position on my ex.

[SummerStorm]

In response to this idea of having an unstable sense of self, my former friend BPD recently told me, "My interests depend on what mood I'm in."  Then, she named two interests (Pokemon and napping) that are always her top two interests.  I saw through this and took it to mean that her interests depend on who she's with at the time. 

[cosmonaut]

cosmonaut:

I do not agree with you at all with your statement that I am painting a borderline who is untreated and refusing treatment to black by saying they are driven by their disorder. It is absolutely true. They have no self essentially without therapy. They have to put their childhood trauma to rest and learn to heal it while in therapy in order to take that roadblock down and self actualize - discover who their true self is. I am not saying that the fundamental essence of a borderline personality disorder sufferer is their disorder. Of course, deep down, they have "self" that is waiting to be cultivated and fostered. But, a borderline is essentially a child in an adult body, growth through therapy must occur before they find their true self. As an example, who I was as a child is a piece of who I am... .If I were to remain who I was as a child now as an adult, I am not a full person. Unless a BPD sufferer is working through their disorder, it consumes them and drives them. My ex has moments of lucidity, sure. but they are fleeting. I have probably seen tiny bits and pieces of her true self beyond the false self - the chameleon- I see for the majority of our years together.

Let's look at it this way.  Is someone with autism defined by their disorder?  Is someone with Down Syndrome defined by their disorder?  Is someone with Alzheimer's defined by their disorder?  All of these people are a unique individual.  No matter how debilitating their disease it does not erase that there is a human being inside - someone very distinct from the limitations and handicap of their disorder.  There are people with autism capable of amazing feats of mathematics, art, music.  How is that possible unless they there is a very special, thinking, feeling human being inside of them?  Is a person with Alzheimer's erased when they develop it?  :)o they cease to be a human being with feelings, hopes, abilities, caring?

I think this is the danger in overly focusing on the idea that pwBPD do not have a fully formed sense of self.  In many ways this concept of self is metaphor.  Originally Freud used the term "soul" which was soon realized was a terrible borrowing of a word that does not at all fit with the concept trying to be conveyed.  So, the term became "self".  This too is an imperfect borrowing of a word.  It is an attempt to understand a tremendously complex system that we don't understand in any sort of depth.  We are the blind men trying to see the elephant by touching it.  Sometimes we feel the trunk and think it's a snake or sometimes the ears and think it's a bat, but we aren't really seeing the elephant.  There are even some cognitive scientists who believe that we won't ever be able to solve the problem completely in understanding the human mind.  They argue it may be an example of the limitations of any system seeking to deconstruct itself as described by Gödel in his incompleteness theorems.  All metaphors have limitations.  If they were perfect they would be a definition and no longer metaphor.  So, we must be careful in taking the idea that pwBPD have an incomplete self too far.  Clearly pwBPD do have their own inner lives.  They have their own emotions, their own dreams, their own fears, their own needs, their own ideas.  They are just as capable of anyone else of achievements in art, science, and literature.  How can we say then that they are defined by their disorder?

When we say that pwBPD are by nature lesser because of their disorder, is this not like saying that a zebra is a black horse with a few white strips?  Surely the truth is that a zebra is a mixture of black and white.  If we overly focus on one it is because we are minimizing the other.  pwBPD are a mixture as well.  They have positive qualities and negative qualities.  They are complex human beings just like we are.

[Mr Hollande]

I agree with OutOfEgypt. Does it matter who they are? The facts are there was much deceit, pain and chaos and in the end it broke. It couldn't have gone any other way. I understand why things went that way, I understand the illness and it's symptoms, but I don't think I have any interest in who the imposter I accepted into my life for 5 years is.

I believe that whoever they are changes with the person they are with and in what setting they are in. No one truly knows and no one ever will know the real person behind the facade. Least of all themselves. I don't believe any answers can be found in them and any attempt to do so will bring more confusion and more pain.

They are who they are and that's about the best we will get. I also believe that the sooner we accept this the better it is for us. Whatever and wherever they are now let them be and leave it at that.

[cosmonaut]

I don't think I have any interest in who the imposter I accepted into my life for 5 years is.

Well, that's certainly your choice, but it's derailing this thread.  The rest of us are trying to examine the issue.  Clearly the issue matters to some members.

[C.Stein]

this is why i prefer "unstable sense of self" to "no sense of self".

Yes, I agree.  Unstable seems suitable in some cases.  My ex told me on many occasions I don't know who I am.  This clearly shows an unstable sense of self.  I don't believe she always felt that way. 

These declarations came at times when she herself was unstable and down on herself emotionally.  It seemed when things in her life became unstable, when she felt she had no direction, this is when she would say this.  In times like these she would also have suicide ideation and severe depression.  If she doesn't have some direction, some end goal, then everything seems to fall apart for her and she starts questioning her very existence and purpose in life.  It was disturbing and sad to see her like this.

[AwakenedOne]

Thanks for the very interesting responses.

Yeah, I guess it's way more complex than thinking that she is deep down or for the most part in her soul the friendly person that I saw interacting with strangers.

I could just as easily imagine that she is the child like person at her core. The child like person took over basically in the last six months as she spent less and less time with me and more doing that type of stuff with others.

There was the person that grabbed knives and did other horrific things.

I really don't think there is a simple answer to who she is or was. Probably most people can't even be defined by a few sentences.

Some have said pwBPD are the disorder. It seems Cosmonauts take on things seems to make a lot of sense. Maybe it's more like the disorder is deeply attached to them and unless they can get it pried off of them by a professional or pry it off themselves it's part of them forever. I think it leads them to more and more of the same chaos or worse in the future. Even though I wish my ex the best I find it hard to imagine what any real best is. I just wish a generic type of best.

[Mr Hollande]

AwakenedOne, in spite of Cosmonaut invalidating me and my input, I maintain that trying to decipher the ex is a futile exercise. I believe the answer you need is in the fact that you now know she is ill and having learned the symptoms and behavioural patterns of the disorder you also know that lies and deceit are recurring features. Hoping to piece together a full picture from that will answer nothing and offer only more pain and confusion as well as delay your recovery.

[Mutt]

I think that every one is different and everyone's healing path is unique. I saw how my ex wife treated her ex from a previous relationship and by the time that I met my ex wife they were out of the r/s for 4 years. Things didn't change for them in our marriage with their conflict and their daughter suffered. He left his daughter with my ex wife when she was two and she's 16 now. That's 14 years of high conflict and they were together for two years  

I didn't want my kids to suffer the same way. I think that there's always a solution to every problem but sometimes there's one solution and it can be a hard one. I had to change with how I reacted to her and what helped is understanding why she behaves the way that she does. She has a hidden tape that loops back, a critical voice, she's incredibly hard on herself and she projects that inner chaos. She has to make herself look better than me because she feels insecure.

Radical acceptance helped me heal and I like that I don't feel anxiety and stress when I co-parent or when I have to see her because I still have 14 years until the youngest is of age. I chose to emotionally detach where her ex partner is emotionally attached and its heartbreaking how kids suffer when parents can't stop conflict.

My ex suffers from mental illness and I understand that some people don't understand how their behaviors relates with others. I think that her ex partner doesn't know better. Me and the kids suffer less and the kids thrive because I chose to stop arguing and pointing out the flaws with my ex.

[AwakenedOne]

AwakenedOne, in spite of Cosmonaut invalidating me and my input, I maintain that trying to decipher the ex is a futile exercise. I believe the answer you need is in the fact that you now know she is ill and having learned the symptoms and behavioural patterns of the disorder you also know that lies and deceit are recurring features. Hoping to piece together a full picture from that will answer nothing and offer only more pain and confusion as well as delay your recovery.

Mr Hollande,

I have been trying to get some positive things out of understanding her more. You are right though, one just ends up with a headache and few or no answers. I guess it would be a bit less of a headache to still just have a small summary in ones mind of who an ex wife is or was instead of the long version.

I guess a basic summary of understanding who she is would be: She is a unique soul on this earth but is driven by a disorder. She finds it hard to stay on the right roads when her cruise control function disengages and proceeds to drive off the wrong exit too often if not always. She hates herself but still feels entitled. She can't take any form of criticism or a perceived slight by anyone. She has a great kindness and something similar to a love inside that is looking to find it's way out and toward others. The amount of anger and the horrific potential for violence that is also trapped inside her seems to be much stronger than the love.