Does anyone truly know BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't think so.

[Kelli Cornett]

I don't think so.

[Kelli Cornett]

I don't think so.

[enlighten me]

You can get an understanding but I don't think you can truly know everything.

My experience with my exs and everything Ive read up on has I believe given me an insight but who really knows what goes on in a persons head.

I don't think there can be a blanket understanding as every pwBPD is an individual and has their own experiences which dictate how they behave.

[Fr4nz]

You can see the behavioural patterns and piece everything together with the knowledge provided from this website and many other sources (even academic ones).

Yet, knowing each detail, and even predicting all of their behaviours (as enlighten me said), is simply not possible.

[hergestridge]

How can you get to know someone who changes all the time? A pwBPD does not have the stable self that you or I have. And a stable self is what we hope to find when we say we want to get to know them. It won't happen. It's not there.

[Moselle]

I think it takes one to really know one.

As the other half, we can understand the co-dependent, empathetic, narcissistic side much better

[joel6242]

I do not think we truly can know who they are but i think we can see a little bit every once in awhile. I see that he can be a beautiful person but then I can see the monster. I felt like a hostage to this and feel that way still.

[lm911]

I don't. Moreover I don't think that they know theirselves either.

[hashtag_loyal]

Most pwBPD constantly feel a mixture of pain, fear, rage, self-hatred, all-or-nothing thinking, suicidal ideation and emptiness. If those are just words without personal meaning for you, be glad.

I believe with the sentiment that it is better to try to identify and understand BPD behaviors, rather than trying to fully understand the disorder itself. You'll go crazy yourself trying to fully understand them.

I don't think there can be a blanket understanding as every pwBPD is an individual and has their own experiences which dictate how they behave.

This is very true. Every pwBPD is unique. In addition to the four sub-types (waif/hermit/queen/witch), there are 256 different BPD permutations (any combination of 5 or more of the 9 diagnostic criteria; a 1-2-3-4-5 BPD is just as BPD as a 5-6-7-8-9 one, despite very different symptoms.) Furthermore, there is high co-morbidity among BPD sufferers with other Cluster B disorders (NPD, APD, ASPD, etc.) as well as Bi-Polar, DID and eating disorders.

On top of this, we also have to remember that the 'p' in pwBPD stands for person. And despite possessing a crippling disorder that includes no sense of "self", each person has his/her own different experiences, talents, attitudes and interests that ultimately affect their behaviors as well.

[steve195915]

You can get an understanding but I don't think you can truly know everything.

My experience with my exs and everything Ive read up on has I believe given me an insight but who really knows what goes on in a persons head.

I don't think there can be a blanket understanding as every pwBPD is an individual and has their own experiences which dictate how they behave.

Right on! 

Understanding more about BPD and the pwBPD's history may help us understand some things or make educated guesses but we can never know for sure.  When my BPDgf acts a certain way e.g. she stops saying "I love you", I can guess she's pushing me away because she's feeling engulfed, or it can be she's testing me to see if I still say I love her and show consistency to overcome her feelings of abandonment, or she could even be looking to start a fight to breakup so she can pursue other options because she's feeling engulfed or fears I may abandon her.  I do believe that the pwBPD has no real idea of why they do certain actions.  The few times I could actually try to ask my BPDgf why she acted a particular way, she wouldn't even acknowledge her actions, wouldn't respond, or deny them, or blame them on me with no rationale.  I couldn't pursue any further because that would trigger her.  To paraphrase "They know not what they do or why". 

[enlighten me]

This is very true. Every pwBPD is unique. In addition to the four sub-types (waif/hermit/queen/witch), there are 256 different BPD permutations (any combination of 5 or more of the 9 diagnostic criteria; a 1-2-3-4-5 BPD is just as BPD as a 5-6-7-8-9 one, despite very different symptoms.) Furthermore, there is high co-morbidity among BPD sufferers with other Cluster B disorders (NPD, APD, ASPD, etc.) as well as Bi-Polar, DID and eating disorders.

To further complicate things you could also take into account how severe each criteria they have is. For instance if they have five of the criteria three could be at the lower end of being counted and the other two could be at the extremely high end.

The other difficulty I have wrestled with is what was true/ exaggerated or a complete lie. And to further complicate matters what did they believe was true even though it wasn't.

[hashtag_loyal]

I do believe that the pwBPD has no real idea of why they do certain actions.  The few times I could actually try to ask my BPDgf why she acted a particular way, she wouldn't even acknowledge her actions, wouldn't respond, or deny them, or blame them on me with no rationale.  I couldn't pursue any further because that would trigger her.  To paraphrase "They know not what they do or why". 

This is so true! I do not envy my ex's therapist.

The other difficulty I have wrestled with is what was true/ exaggerated or a complete lie. And to further complicate matters what did they believe was true even though it wasn't.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm having a hard time with this myself, trying to determine what actually happened, and whether or not my ex is "lying" in any sense. To make matters worse, I believe my ex is comorbid with DID, so it may be possible she has dissociated memories in addition to feelings. Or she's just trying to manipulate me. But could I really consider her lying if she legitimately has no memory of the things she did?

[C.Stein]

But could I really consider her lying if she legitimately has no memory of the things she did?

Does she really have no memory or has she lied to herself so much that the memory has been effectively rewritten?  It is almost like brainwashing.  My ex did it to some extent although usually when I recalled the events for her as they really happened it appeared to jog her memory ... .or perhaps that is just what she wanted me to believe.  Who knows?

That said, there were some instances with my ex where I would bring up stuff she said and it didn't appear she remembered saying them.  This is understandable as I don't remember a lot of things that I say.  Sometimes people will say/do things that they don't attach a lot of importance to so it is easily forgotten.  On our end the thing that was said/done can sometimes be seared into our memory until the end of time.   It will never be forgotten.

[Moselle]

This is very true. Every pwBPD is unique. In addition to the four sub-types (waif/hermit/queen/witch), there are 256 different BPD permutations (any combination of 5 or more of the 9 diagnostic criteria; a 1-2-3-4-5 BPD is just as BPD as a 5-6-7-8-9 one, despite very different symptoms.) Furthermore, there is high co-morbidity among BPD sufferers with other Cluster B disorders (NPD, APD, ASPD, etc.) as well as Bi-Polar, DID and eating disorders.

On top of this, we also have to remember that the 'p' in pwBPD stands for person. And despite possessing a crippling disorder that includes no sense of "self", each person has his/her own different experiences, talents, attitudes and interests that ultimately affect their behaviors as well.

Ya mine is certainly unique. BPD/NPD, obsessive disorder, eating disorder, impulse control disorder. I'm having trouble seeing her a p though. For me she is just 'the enemy' in a high conflict divorce.

[steve195915]

But could I really consider her lying if she legitimately has no memory of the things she did?

Does she really have no memory or has she lied to herself so much that the memory has been effectively rewritten?  It is almost like brainwashing.  My ex did it to some extent although usually when I recalled the events for her as they really happened it appeared to jog her memory ... .or perhaps that is just what she wanted me to believe.  Who knows?

That said, there were some instances with my ex where I would bring up stuff she said and it didn't appear she remembered saying them.  This is understandable as I don't remember a lot of things that I say.  Sometimes people will say/do things that they don't attach a lot of importance to so it is easily forgotten.  On our end the thing that was said/done can sometimes be seared into our memory until the end of time.   It will never be forgotten.

My BPDgf sometimes makes up some complete lies about me but if I can prove them false she absolutely refuses to acknowledge or may then deny ever saying what she clearly said.  A pwBPD has an impossible time admitting fault or responsibility so I think their brain puts false memories to justify their actions or not remember things as they really occurred.  So is it still a lie when due to their mental illness they really can't comprehend that they did lie and in their mind they have false memories.  Great question and society is still struggling with how to respond to actions of people that have a mental illness.  For instance, if someone with a mental illness kills someone, they can still plea innocent due to reason of insanity and they are not subject to the same penalties as a "normal" person.  Typical for the nonBPD partner to tolerate alot more from their BPD partner due to knowledge of their illness.  

[Moselle]

Does she really have no memory or has she lied to herself so much that the memory has been effectively rewritten?  It is almost like brainwashing.  My ex did it to some extent although usually when I recalled the events for her as they really happened it appeared to jog her memory ... .or perhaps that is just what she wanted me to believe.  Who knows?

In my opinion the truth is so painful for them that their brain plays a trick on them to avoid it. It projects onto others. In their current state the truth is too dangerous for them. When they acknowledge too much truth they may become suicidal from the pain.

[C.Stein]

In my opinion the truth is so painful for them that their brain plays a trick on them to avoid it. It projects onto others. In their current state the truth is too dangerous for them. When they acknowledge too much truth they may become suicidal from the pain.

I can agree with this to a certain extent.  Everyone is different in how they handle painful truths, even those without a PD.  I do know my ex would avoid at all costs emotional pain or turmoil is she could.  That avoidance came all to often at the cost of my emotional wellbeing.

[Reforming]

There are number of people who question whether you really get to know anyone deep down.

Perhaps the truth is that when we get to know someone a certain point in their life we can grow blind to them and not recognise when they change. And change is the on constant in life.

I think it's even more difficult with a disordered person because their behaviour and their personality is so fluid and inconsistent.

And as other posters have said they often don't really know who they are and when they get glimpses of themselves through the eyes of others hey don't like what they see and run away from it.

Saying that a lot of us struggle with real self knowledge. It can be very uncomfortable to really see at yourself through the eyes of another. 

Reforming

[enlighten me]

I like to think of my "self" as a wardrobe full of clothes. There are lots of different items for different occasions. I have suits for special occasions and work, winter clothes, summer clothes etc etc. They have been collected over time and as a whole make up who I am. Styles change and my wardrobe changes. Its still me though. Deep down though there are my favourite items. the ones that I revert back to. A comfy set of track bottoms, a pair of jeans, a t shirt. These old favourites are my base items they are my core self.

With my uBPD exs I see it as their wardrobe is in a constant state of flux. They have no dresses then all they have is dresses. They throw themselves into a new style completely and drop all their old clothes. There may be a few items that last but not many.

[C.Stein]

And as other posters have said they often don't really know who they are and when they get glimpses of themselves through the eyes of others hey don't like what they see and run away from it.

Yes indeed.  I think this describes my ex almost perfectly.  She has said many times she didn't know who she was.  She also believes I think she is a pathological liar and she just can't handle that, even though I have told her on numerous occasions that I don't think that.  She has convinced herself that is what I think ... .and perhaps on some level she might question if there is some truth in that.  This obviously is the exact opposite of what she needs ... .for someone to make her feel good about herself.

[Kelli Cornett]

I'm sorry guys! I'm bad at catching up with my threads. Thanks for all your answers