My Ex Accepts Responsibility

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello Everyone, I'm new to this forum. I had a nasty breakup with my ex girlfriend that happened about 3 weeks ago. I've had NC with her in 2 weeks or so. The relationship lasted 2 years and was really bad the last 3 months. There were multiple violent episodes and a ton of manipulation. I've done a lot of reading online about BPD and she definitely has all of the signs and our relationship had all of the signs as well when I look back on it.

Recently she contacted me via email and said she has been seeking help and she understood why everything happened the way it did. She explained everything and why she acted certain ways due to the BPD. She completely accepted responsibility for everything and spent most of the email apologizing. In the end she did say that she hoped that one day we could be friends, and I'm struggling with how to handle the situation. I know that regardless I have to move on with my life because even if she is serious about working through her issues, it will take months or years to recover. I'm curious if any of you have ever gotten back together or become friends with an ex who after months or years of therapy became a more stable person? Should I even consider this a possibility or just move on and forget about the possibility of ever having her in my life again?

[bryan2183]

Hello Everyone, I'm new to this forum. I had a nasty breakup with my ex girlfriend that happened about 3 weeks ago. I've had NC with her in 2 weeks or so. The relationship lasted 2 years and was really bad the last 3 months. There were multiple violent episodes and a ton of manipulation. I've done a lot of reading online about BPD and she definitely has all of the signs and our relationship had all of the signs as well when I look back on it.

Recently she contacted me via email and said she has been seeking help and she understood why everything happened the way it did. She explained everything and why she acted certain ways due to the BPD. She completely accepted responsibility for everything and spent most of the email apologizing. In the end she did say that she hoped that one day we could be friends, and I'm struggling with how to handle the situation. I know that regardless I have to move on with my life because even if she is serious about working through her issues, it will take months or years to recover. I'm curious if any of you have ever gotten back together or become friends with an ex who after months or years of therapy became a more stable person? Should I even consider this a possibility or just move on and forget about the possibility of ever having her in my life again?

[Turkish]

Hi bryan2183,

How did you feel when you got that email, considering all that happened?

Despite it all, there's nothing wrong with being kind. Perhaps you can respond nicely, but curtly. How she feels now is how she feels now. This may likely change. It may be possible to be friends at some point in the future, but one can't say now. It sounds like you have a lot of stuff to work through. A non reply (No Contact) may escalate things. Can you give a short, validating reply, promising nothing? I wouldn't touch upon your r/s at all, but give her kudos for seeking help, without seeming superior.

Turkish

[bryan2183]

Thanks for your reply. I was honestly pretty surprised when I read that email. I think she was pretty self aware, but I did not expect her to seek help and to spell out everything so clearly while acknowledging her responsibility in the email. I guess the biggest issue I have is even though she is getting help and she has acknowledged everything, it's still going to be a long and difficult process for her to overcome BPD.

Being away from the situation for a few weeks has allowed me to better understand what I want out of a relationship and I think she is a long way from being in a place to be able to give me that. I want to be there to support her but I feel like if I stay involved the feelings and emotions are just going to linger and make it hard for me to move on with my life. If one day I felt like she truly was better and was capable of being in a healthy relationship I would probably consider it, but I don't think that will be anytime in the near future. On the other hand it seems rather cold to completely shut her out of my life when she is trying to accept responsibility and get help.

[hashtag_loyal]

even though she is getting help and she has acknowledged everything, it's still going to be a long and difficult process for her to overcome BPD.

This is very true.

Being away from the situation for a few weeks has allowed me to better understand what I want out of a relationship and I think she is a long way from being in a place to be able to give me that. I want to be there to support her but I feel like if I stay involved the feelings and emotions are just going to linger and make it hard for me to move on with my life. If one day I felt like she truly was better and was capable of being in a healthy relationship I would probably consider it, but I don't think that will be anytime in the near future. On the other hand it seems rather cold to completely shut her out of my life when she is trying to accept responsibility and get help.

"Supporting" a pwBPD is easier said than done. There's a reason so many smart and highly trained therapists refuse to see BPD patients because the disorder is very difficult for anyone to truly understand.

Here's my advice:

- Keep your distance until you have more time to gain perspective and heal (I don't think 3 weeks is nearly enough.)

- Stay in limited contact with your ex. Don't get too close to your ex that you would trigger her fear of intimacy, but don't completely go NC either.

- Take Turkish's advice on your contact: Validate her feelings, but do nothing else. Talking about her "treatment" or "progress" will probably be counter-productive.

- Honestly, just being there so she can email you occasionally is probably the best thing you can do for her right now.

[hashtag_loyal]

I'm curious if any of you have ever gotten back together or become friends with an ex who after months or years of therapy became a more stable person?

Ask me again in 6 months. 

I'm actively trying to be friends with my ex right now. I'm optimistic, even though this rarely works out, because I feel like my ex and I are uniquely positioned to make it work. If it does work out, I'll come back on this board in a few months to share my story with everyone.

[Lonely_Astro]

Hello Everyone, I'm new to this forum. I had a nasty breakup with my ex girlfriend that happened about 3 weeks ago. I've had NC with her in 2 weeks or so. The relationship lasted 2 years and was really bad the last 3 months. There were multiple violent episodes and a ton of manipulation. I've done a lot of reading online about BPD and she definitely has all of the signs and our relationship had all of the signs as well when I look back on it.

Recently she contacted me via email and said she has been seeking help and she understood why everything happened the way it did. She explained everything and why she acted certain ways due to the BPD. She completely accepted responsibility for everything and spent most of the email apologizing. In the end she did say that she hoped that one day we could be friends, and I'm struggling with how to handle the situation. I know that regardless I have to move on with my life because even if she is serious about working through her issues, it will take months or years to recover. I'm curious if any of you have ever gotten back together or become friends with an ex who after months or years of therapy became a more stable person? Should I even consider this a possibility or just move on and forget about the possibility of ever having her in my life again?

I will tell you my story.  It's been documented here a few times over, but I'll rehash it for you since it relates directly to your question.

4 years ago, I fell hard for a girl, J, instantly.  She had just came to work where I did and from the moment we made eye contact and she smiled at me I knew life would never be the same.  Yes, it sounds like a work of fiction, but I instantly was attracted to her in that Hollywood romance kind of way.  We were 'together' for about 4 months and they were pure bliss and hell all at the same time.  She literally ghosted out of my life toward the end.  It all unraveled when she ignored me of a little over a week and then finally agreed to meet me to confess.  She had had a pregnancy scare and thats why she had ignored me for over a week.  Funny thing about that, it could not have possibly been mine.  Why?  Because we hadn't slept together.  Looking back, it was weird we were together that long and had serious talks yet never slept together.  I guess it wasn't so weird because she had talked about how people only used her and I was taking a higher road (or so I thought).

Anyway, at the tail end of the 4 months she told me that she had been diagnosed BPD.  She had went to a therapist to find out why she had done the things she had done to me because I had been so good to her yet she had so willingly hurt me.  I had stayed around for awhile, as a friend, but told myself the first time she lied to me I would leave her life.  It didn't take but about 2 weeks after I set that boundary that I left.  We still worked together but were no contact (I wouldn't say limited contact because I completely shut her out by going to other people for things or took care of it myself to avoid interaction with her).  We stayed NC for 3 years.  During that time, we both moved on with our lives.

About a year ago we started talking again.  She took full responsibility for everything.  I mean everything, even stuff I didn't know about.  We became friends again and that slowly progressed to more.  Both of us were in failing relationships and were leaning on each other.  Honestly, I felt she had managed her BPD so well.  Plus, she was always the 'higher functioning' type.  As our friendship led to romantic dealings, I was very cautious.  I was open and honest with her about my hesitation, which she understood.  I also told myself at the first hint of something being off, I would leave.  As time progressed and the oddities did to, I crossed that boundary and didn't leave.  The past year was actually a rollercoaster in hindsight that I didn't see because I was riding the hurricane winds that is a BPD r/s.

In June we had our first real blowout argument where I snapped at her.  I did so because there had always been this one guy in her life, N, that kept creeping up.  You see, N was who she slept with 4 years ago that gave her the pregnancy scare.  Around April/May I had been messing with J's phone because I was thinking of getting the same model when N called.  I confronted her about it and she played it off.    that I ignored.  I never fully resolved that with her, so I buried it.  Toward the end of June, I was having lunch with J in a local park and was having a terrible day.  I was on a rant about work when she made the comment about how I wouldn't like who just drove by and was "looking hard" our "way to see who" she was having lunch with.  I stopped my rant about work and asked her what she meant.  She replied "That was N and he was looking hard over here to see who I was with."  Needless to say I lost my cool.  What's odd about that is that J had been married to another guy (M) for a year, dated for a year prior to that, and had switched cars.  So, in theory, N shouldn't have known what J was currently driving.  Oh and I forgot to mention that J had slept with N prior to her engagement to M (she was serious with M when she cheated on him with N.  Plus, M claims thats the reason they were divorcing was because she was cheating on him with N.  J claims she never slept with N after she got engaged/married to M, but I think thats a lie).  See the reoccurring theme with N?  #2.

After my blow up toward her, J pushed me away.  At the end of July I found out that she was seeing another guy (B) for that entire month.  I broke it off with her as soon as I found out.  She blamed seeing B as my fault because I talked to her so harshly at the end of June (but the fact of why I had a come apart was completely irrelevant  #3).  After a couple of weeks of pleading with me, I reluctantly agreed to another go around with her.  So, I went back in without fully resolving N and now B with her.  My trust in her was nonexistent and I was very clear about that.  She told me that she was going to DBT because of what had happened in July.  She admitted that what she had said to me was just cause for anyone to be upset and that she couldn't believe she had done what she had done (even though she was animate that she never slept with B) to me in July.  To this day, she still never really wants to address July because of the guilt/shame she feels for it.

August and September were ok months, though we were still tedious on terms.  By October, she started distancing again but wouldn't come out and say that we were over.  Finally, after a couple of months of tit for tat, she finally agreed to meet me face to face and we more or less agreed that we were done.  Oh, I need to add to that this entire year all this has been going on, she's been divorcing M.  They have been divorcing for a year now (no kids or assets,  #whatever).  At some point during that year (I was in the picture at this point, if you recall), mutual friends told me she had tried to reconcile with M and actually lived with him (I found this out recently).  She never mentioned that to me, by the way.  I was told that was in Jan/Feb, which happened to be about the time I started noticing oddities in her behavior.  She was playing both sides of the coin, just like old times.

So... .I know that has been a long tale.  My point is, in my case, no you can't be friends with them (and certainly not more).  In my case, J has been linked to M, N, B, and me in just this year.  Have there been others?  I'm sure there have been.  Even as fresh as today, she is still trying to push/pull me into staying in some sort of r/s with her.  She is constantly giving me push/pull statements (example: "I don't know why I don't feel the same way about you as I used to," followed with "but the good old days aren't lost to us forever."

I took a bite of the apple twice, there won't be a third time.  Do yourself a favor and stay away.  The moments of lucidity, like you got with the email, only last for awhile.  They will go away and you'll be back in the storm.  Life's just to short.

[bryan2183]

Thank you for the replies. It's very good to hear other stories and apply them to my situation. I responded to her email validating the way she was feeling but also holding firm that I need to move on with my life. She begged to see my in person to get "closure" because due to the nature of the incidents I was forced to officially end it over the phone. When I saw her I remained firm in my position that she needs help and she needs to seek it on her own and I need to move on with my life. She's having a hard time accepting it saying she doesn't understand how a couple of months ago I wanted to work it out. It's all very painful and every time I communicate with her I feel like I'm closer and closer to getting sucked back in. I do believe she is genuine in her desire to get help, but I'd need to see so much more effort and results before I would even consider dating her again.

[Lonely_Astro]

Thank you for the replies. It's very good to hear other stories and apply them to my situation. I responded to her email validating the way she was feeling but also holding firm that I need to move on with my life. She begged to see my in person to get "closure" because due to the nature of the incidents I was forced to officially end it over the phone. When I saw her I remained firm in my position that she needs help and she needs to seek it on her own and I need to move on with my life. She's having a hard time accepting it saying she doesn't understand how a couple of months ago I wanted to work it out. It's all very painful and every time I communicate with her I feel like I'm closer and closer to getting sucked back in. I do believe she is genuine in her desire to get help, but I'd need to see so much more effort and results before I would even consider dating her again.

In the moment, she is/was very genuine in wanting to get help I'm sure.  But, it's been my experience that they won't stick with it.  Mine started DBT in mid/late September.  She said she was going to start in August (after she dated B for a month behind my back, if you recall my account).  She said that it took her that long to find a qualified therapist (which I do believe because it is so specialized).  Oh, J is also medicated as well, so we weren't starting from ground zero in her desire to "get better".  My experience was that DBT made things worse.  Much worse.  She started facing her core trauma and fears, which made her dysregulate at a rapid pace.  Don't get me wrong, I pointed out a lot of flags the other day of things that had happened to me over the course of the year.  The only difference was whatever mask she had been wearing that only had a few cracks in it fully crumbled after she started.

Now, with that said, she has basically trailed off of DBT.  She often said she was only going for me and if I wasn't going to be around then "what was the point".  The problem was that if she was doing DBT to placate me, she was wasting her time.  If yours chose to go to DBT she has to be the one to want help, for herself, not for you or anyone else.  DBT won't work for them if they aren't doing it by their own desire to get better.  There is to much personal work that DBT requires and that's why its 50/50 on success.  Even those that do succeed, many of them backslide during the process and it takes years of therapy before they start to even live a somewhat 'normal' life. 

I'm going to save you some time, Bryan, and tell you what it took me quite awhile to realize with J.  What I am saying to you is that she was broken long before you and she will be broken long after you.  There is absolutely nothing you can do about that fact.  It is unalterable.  Only you can decide how much you are willing to put into it and you have to be willing to do it with the knowledge that you will most likely not get anything back in return.  You certainly will not get a healthy relationship in return for you efforts.  In the end, BPD will always win.

I was so apprehensive of getting involved with J again.  I was so scared of what had happened to me happening again.  It did strain our relationship.  I know that it did.  Just as I would start to trust her and relax, something would happen to hype me up again.  As I look back on our year together with historical glasses (and not "love lenses", I see that it was rocky at best.  It wasn't because of my own hangups, either.  It was because my gut was telling me what I didn't want my heart to hear.  It's just that simple.  She loved me greatly, up until the moment she didn't.  There was nothing I could have done to change that outcome.  It is sad, but it is true.

Even today J is trying to suck me back in but keep me at just enough distance.  Emotionally, I am stronger than I have been in months and I took a stand today.  What will tomorrow be like?  I have no idea.  I talked to her like she was an adult today, no kid gloves this time, and it will either make or break how she sees me from this point forward.  I've been her doormat for a long time and that truly ended today.  I made it extremely clear to her that I wasn't her friend and that I wasn't open to more, either.  I told her what the past year had been like, with cold reality, and that our time wasn't all for naught, that I had learned some things about myself and that I would always be grateful to have experienced the love she could give.  I focused on some of the good, but I did plunge head long into the bad (not hatefully or in spite, but with an unemotional recall of past true events).  "My time of eggshells with her is over, she will either respect or hate me after I tell her what I have to say," was my thought just before I told her what I had been really feeling over the past few weeks since we had sat face to face and talked about the status of our relationship and how to proceed forward (btw, that had ended without a firm standing... .it was best described as limbo).

I don't expect to hear from her tomorrow or again.  Not for awhile, at least.  This was all spurned on by the fact we had a company charity event coming up for Christmas and she had the (rather bit of) audacity to ask me to be my partner for the event.  I wasn't sure how to respond to that, so I told her I wanted to think about it.  She kept pulling (and pressuring me) for an answer.  I told her that if we could be civil, then I was ok with it.  She immediately went ST after that.  She called me on my work phone the other day (the first time I had actually spoken to her in about two days) and asked me the name of one of my co-workers ex-wife's first name.  I told her and asked why she had asked me such an odd question.  Guess what?  She proceeds to tell me about how her soon to be ex-husband (M) was on a date with the co-worker's ex over the weekend and she was pretty sure that was the same girl.  Needless to say, I was rather short and to the point about how I didn't appreciate her calling me after two days of ST only to tell me about how she was still stalking her soon to be ex who she claims to hate while he was on a date. 

During that, I told her that I didn't think that us doing the charity event together was a good idea, given we weren't really on speaking terms and we had such unresolved issues lingering on top of her asking me questions about her ex's love life.  That rejection started an immediate pull from her, which I put a stop to.  She doesn't want me, but she doesn't want me to go away either.  She wants me when it's convenient for her.  You know what we call that here on this board?  A doormat.  I am not a doormat.  I'm not sure how I am going to go NC with her since we work together, but I have to figure it out and quickly.  Oh and the latest is that she has her entire department hating me as well because if I come around (have to), I get nasty looks from everyone and they're all short/rude to me.  So the smear campaign is in full swing as well.

Anyway, I'm rambling.  Where I was going before I got on a tangent was that they may get 'better' with years of intensive DBT therapy.  But, even with that, they won't be fully 'normal'.  BPD isn't curable, as much as we hate to say that.  It can be managed, but it takes time, dedication, medication, and perseverance from the pwBPD and most don't stick with that.

[steve195915]

Thank you for the replies. It's very good to hear other stories and apply them to my situation. I responded to her email validating the way she was feeling but also holding firm that I need to move on with my life. She begged to see my in person to get "closure" because due to the nature of the incidents I was forced to officially end it over the phone. When I saw her I remained firm in my position that she needs help and she needs to seek it on her own and I need to move on with my life. She's having a hard time accepting it saying she doesn't understand how a couple of months ago I wanted to work it out. It's all very painful and every time I communicate with her I feel like I'm closer and closer to getting sucked back in. I do believe she is genuine in her desire to get help, but I'd need to see so much more effort and results before I would even consider dating her again.

If she is truly a pwBPD that letter wasn't sincere but just a way to manipulate you.  Her seeking help is great but realize she can never be cured from BPD.  It may even be possible that her seeking help was out of desperation to have a reason for you to take her back and if you do, once she knows she has you it will stop.  It appears if you keep in contact you will be sucked in.  Research all you can on here and view all the threads for all the people trying to get over the hell their BPDex put them through.  It's your life and you only get to live it once, so think healthy choices. 

[hashtag_loyal]

Where I was going before I got on a tangent was that they may get 'better' with years of intensive DBT therapy.  But, even with that, they won't be fully 'normal'.  BPD isn't curable, as much as we hate to say that.  It can be managed, but it takes time, dedication, medication, and perseverance from the pwBPD and most don't stick with that.

I don't think this is fully accurate, but it may as well be from our perspective. Many trained professionals struggle with reaching and helping pwBPD, so what would make you think you can help after reading some internet boards for a few weeks?

Bottom line is that some pwBPD do get better and even can get cured and live normal lives and have healthy relationships, but that takes years of hard work and they have to really, really want it. Those fortunate few pwBPD that do escape from the madness are certainly the exception to the rule.

[bryan2183]

It's been over a month since I first posted about this and I was hoping to get some advice on how to handle the situation now. Since our breakup 2 months ago I've been living with family and friends until our lease expired. I've finally secured a new place and it's time to move all of my stuff out of our apartment together including most of the furniture. We've been pretty civil over the past 2 months but we have seen each other a couple of times and it was very difficult.

She's been going to therapy consistently for the past 2 months and reading books and seems very determined to address her problems. However, I know that it's a long road to recovery and even though I'm glad she is in therapy I'm not sure of her motivations. They seem genuine, but I guess I can't know for sure. She says she understands why I'm leaving sometimes, but now that it's time for me to move everything else she's been calling and texting me that she doesn't understand. How can I be so cruel? How could I promise her I would be there for her through all of these issues and then just drop her? She's really  been laying on the guilt, and I'm not sure how to handle it.

I really loved her but ignored all of the red flags and unhealthy behavior for 2 years. When it got so bad I finally stepped away, learned more about BPD, and made the decision to move on for good. It's been very difficult, but I know it's the best thing for me. She just keeps bringing up how I promised I would be there for her no matter what even when she was going through episodes, suicidal thoughts, etc.

There is a big part of me that does feel really guilty because I did always tell her it would be ok and that I wouldn't leave her even though she had problems. In the end though the rage got so bad that I was forced to leave and it helped me see things more objectively and just how unhealthy they were so I decided to leave. I've explained this to her over and over and she still just says she doesn't understand and how can I be so mean.

[Lonely_Astro]

It's been over a month since I first posted about this and I was hoping to get some advice on how to handle the situation now. Since our breakup 2 months ago I've been living with family and friends until our lease expired. I've finally secured a new place and it's time to move all of my stuff out of our apartment together including most of the furniture. We've been pretty civil over the past 2 months but we have seen each other a couple of times and it was very difficult.

She's been going to therapy consistently for the past 2 months and reading books and seems very determined to address her problems. However, I know that it's a long road to recovery and even though I'm glad she is in therapy I'm not sure of her motivations. They seem genuine, but I guess I can't know for sure. She says she understands why I'm leaving sometimes, but now that it's time for me to move everything else she's been calling and texting me that she doesn't understand. How can I be so cruel? How could I promise her I would be there for her through all of these issues and then just drop her? She's really  been laying on the guilt, and I'm not sure how to handle it.

I really loved her but ignored all of the red flags and unhealthy behavior for 2 years. When it got so bad I finally stepped away, learned more about BPD, and made the decision to move on for good. It's been very difficult, but I know it's the best thing for me. She just keeps bringing up how I promised I would be there for her no matter what even when she was going through episodes, suicidal thoughts, etc.

There is a big part of me that does feel really guilty because I did always tell her it would be ok and that I wouldn't leave her even though she had problems. In the end though the rage got so bad that I was forced to leave and it helped me see things more objectively and just how unhealthy they were so I decided to leave. I've explained this to her over and over and she still just says she doesn't understand and how can I be so mean.

First off, you aren't responsible for her "getting better".  It's great that she has decided to continue therapy.  You can hope/wish for her to have 'success' all day long, only she can decide to do it though.  On that same note, we can't tell you what to do.  What I mean by that is only you can decide if you want to keep in contact with her, support her (however that is that you choose), and what role you want to be in her life. 

Theres no shame in taking care of yourself.  Theres no shame in saying that you have to move on.  Her laying on the guilt is just that: shaming you.  I, too, promised (to J) that I would always be there and would be her cheerleader on her path to "getting better".  You know what?  I am rooting for her... .in my heart and head.  I am not a part of her life because a) she won't allow me to (not in a honest, healthy way) and b) I don't trust myself enough to be around her and not want to wrap myself back up in the chaos that is her.

With that said, if yours isn't going to DBT, then I would be extremely weary of her commitment.  Seeing your average run of the meal counselor isn't going to cut it when it comes to BPD recovery.  Heck, the debate is still raging whether or not DBT is anything more than 'mildly effective'.  Several articles I have read suggest that the higher functioning the BPD, the less effective DBT is.  DBT isn't a magic bullet, that is certainly agreed upon.  Why I say that is if you choose to stay around her and help her put up the good fight, its a fight that will last years and in the meantime you will be subject to the same abuse you have experienced in the past while that fight is going on.

Only you can decide what you're willing to put up with - with also knowing that you may not get anything in return.  DBT may or may not be successful.  But, one thing is certain: she will not be the same person after DBT.  What I mean by that is the person she has told you she 'wants' to be may not end up being who she is at the end of her journey.

I've been where you are standing now.  I had committed to the long haul with J.  I made it as clear to her as I could that I would be there.  Roughly 2 weeks into it, she pushed me away and we never recovered.  Though I did try, she refused to.  I gave it 3 months of limbo... .during that time she dated another guy (R) and has now moved on to Guy #2 (unknown name to me).  I chose to walk away when I found out about R, as that was a hard line boundary for me (she had dated B in July without me knowing, we broke up when I found out about it, got back together for a couple of months - her cheating on me with B was her reasoning for DBT because she wanted to "get better" and "not do something so stupid to the one man who truly loves her again" - what good it did).  And you know what?  She still sees it as me who chose to walk away (her dating others was literally no big deal because she had "no plans" to take it further with R, even thought that came after 2 dates that she once again concealed from me).

I could go on and on about my personal saga, but I won't.  My point was that I have been where you are in wanting to make it work.  I wish I could tell you it would be ok if you chose to stick around, but I can't.  It didn't work for me.  Maybe yours would be different... .but thats not what my instinct is telling me.  But, once again, only you can decide whats best for you.

[Rmbrworst]

@lonely_astro

Read your story again.  So similar to what I went through.  The cycling. 

I remember the last time I saw him . . . it was my third try with him.  I said to him 6 weeks prior "This is our LAST chance, we are done after this, I will never talk to you again if discard me."

"I promise I wont, I feel different now, I'm sorry for what I've done, I'm dedicated to you, I'm your boyfriend . . . " blah blah blah.

Well sure enough, same thing happens.  He discards me another time. 

I remember saying "This is a pattern.  You're on a timeline of every 6 weeks.  It's the same thing every 6 weeks . . . why am I doing this to myself . . . "

Looking back I'm seeing all the red flags and the cycles of abuse. 

I also had a moment where I blew off a phone call at 5am from the "ex" boyfriend.

God . . . how stupid was I?

Thanks for sharing.  Sorry you had to go through that.  I feel you 100%

[Infern0]

Just to give you my experience of this on two seperate occasions I have decided to do a "friendship" and "support" my BPD because she asked for my help in getting better

The first time, she didn't end up going to a psych after weeks of telling me she was going to, she turned against the idea, was not commited and i got split black

The second time, and I kid you not, she was saying she wanted to change and get serious etc and i then find out she's out on a saturday night drinking and went home and had group sex with her housemates, while I was sat up on the computer looking up DBT therapists for he.

ultimately it's your choice if you want to try and help her, and not every BPD is the exact same but my attempts have been nothing but fools errands.

In the end if they want to get therapy and help, there is really little we can do anyway to support them, especially since we are people who are emotionally attatched and have issues of our own.

[Infern0]

A few more thoughts

Many of us have made the same promises "i'll always be there for you" etc. I myself did.

However I made those promises at a time when i was mislead. My ex was idealizing at the time, and presenting herself as something she wasn't, she did not disclose her BPD to me until much later down the road, merely depression and anorexia, that she had had a hard childhood and had nobody who cared about her and felt alone, I told her she was not alone anymore and she had me.

She then changed the script, devalued, changed personality on me, became abusive, lied, went behind my back etc.

If all she suffered from was depression and anorexia and she treated me like a human being then i would have kept my promise, but I was lied to, and so that promise is no longer binding.

As for them getting help or getting better, DBT is the ONLY treatment that has shown results, and the results it has shown are selective, they take YEARS of therapy, 2-3 times a week, as well as daily journalling, they are given homework to do, guided meditations and more, it's almost a full time job and if they do this for a period of at least a couple of years they show some improvment, better understanding of their disorder and better ability to control it.

But heres the thing

They still HAVE BPD, they aren't cured they just manage it better.

The % of borderlines who will do this work is probably less than 1%, it's hard, draining, and takes a long, long time and the vast majority of them will not even attempt it or if they do go, when they don't see instant results they give up.

My BPD got sent to DBT after a suicide attempt and gave up in a matter of a couple of weeks, that was years ago and she's never reattempted it.

[Lonely_Astro]

@lonely_astro

Read your story again.  So similar to what I went through.  The cycling. 

I remember the last time I saw him . . . it was my third try with him.  I said to him 6 weeks prior "This is our LAST chance, we are done after this, I will never talk to you again if discard me."

"I promise I wont, I feel different now, I'm sorry for what I've done, I'm dedicated to you, I'm your boyfriend . . . " blah blah blah.

Well sure enough, same thing happens.  He discards me another time. 

I remember saying "This is a pattern.  You're on a timeline of every 6 weeks.  It's the same thing every 6 weeks . . . why am I doing this to myself . . . "

Looking back I'm seeing all the red flags and the cycles of abuse. 

I also had a moment where I blew off a phone call at 5am from the "ex" boyfriend.

God . . . how stupid was I?

Thanks for sharing.  Sorry you had to go through that.  I feel you 100%

You neither are nor were you stupid.  You're a normal, functioning adult who was locked in a battle of emotional dysregulation wirh someone who was and is sick.  It's not your fault.  We want to help those we love.  We want to help our fellow humans get through this ride we call life.  We try our best.  Unfortunately, there are those out there that don't want help (even if they say otherwise) and serve to teach us about our best qualities, even if we don't see it right now.

Moving on from J has been hard for me because I slip back to the idealization phase a lot.  I think about how normal she seemed, so aware of her BPD, so determined to overcome it.  I couldn't have been more proud to have been the catalyst for that (she told me so).  I believe that was true, in the moment.  As it would turn out, somewhere down the line, that was a lie.  I get stuck sometimes thinking that I did something to cause this deregulation.  The reality is, I didn't.  She made those various choices.  That's on her, not me.  There's a thread asking what % you feel responsible for being the end of the r/s.  I give myself 10%, and that's generous.  I treated her like she was the greatest person on earth.  I let her do a lot of stuff to me and I held on to hope.  I wasn't mean to her, I never lied to her, and I never hid anything from her.  I can't say the same for her.

Once again, you aren't stupid for trying.  It's his loss that he can't see the greatness he had with you.  He had someone that loves him for him and gave it their best to show him that.  He chose not to take it, he chose to use and destroy that.  I feel comfortable saying that because that's how I was with J.  She made her choice and it wasn't me.

A few more thoughts

Many of us have made the same promises "i'll always be there for you" etc. I myself did.

However I made those promises at a time when i was mislead. My ex was idealizing at the time, and presenting herself as something she wasn't, she did not disclose her BPD to me until much later down the road, merely depression and anorexia, that she had had a hard childhood and had nobody who cared about her and felt alone, I told her she was not alone anymore and she had me.

She then changed the script, devalued, changed personality on me, became abusive, lied, went behind my back etc.

If all she suffered from was depression and anorexia and she treated me like a human being then i would have kept my promise, but I was lied to, and so that promise is no longer binding.

As for them getting help or getting better, DBT is the ONLY treatment that has shown results, and the results it has shown are selective, they take YEARS of therapy, 2-3 times a week, as well as daily journalling, they are given homework to do, guided meditations and more, it's almost a full time job and if they do this for a period of at least a couple of years they show some improvment, better understanding of their disorder and better ability to control it.

But heres the thing

They still HAVE BPD, they aren't cured they just manage it better.

The % of borderlines who will do this work is probably less than 1%, it's hard, draining, and takes a long, long time and the vast majority of them will not even attempt it or if they do go, when they don't see instant results they give up.

My BPD got sent to DBT after a suicide attempt and gave up in a matter of a couple of weeks, that was years ago and she's never reattempted it.

You're absolutely correct when you say we were misled when we made those promises.  Maybe not in the moment, but for the long haul.  I made those promises to J. I have since found out that she had lied to me most of our 1 year r/s.  So, in fact, I made a promise under a false pretense.  Therefore, I was used and taken advantage of in those moments, it also voids any promise I made because it was based off a lie.

J claims she still goes to DBT.  I doubt it.  I doubt it because she has told me directly she's skipped weeks because she didn't want to make the drive or she had to get her nails done or something else.  Basically, if she were being serious about getting better, those "excuses" wouldn't be excuses. 

While DBT is promising, it's exactly what you said.  It's not a cure, it's a management technique that comes after years of dedication, homework, and deep digging on their part.  Backsliding is common.  And that's with the 50% that stick with it.  20% of that 50% regress.  The remaining struggle with their BPD under certain stressors.  It's not a cure, it's a treatment.  I still advocate for DBT... .if they're being serious.  J told me once that she was only going for me.  That's the completely wrong reason, it needs to be for her.  I told her I'd be there for her and I meant it.  But, she didn't, which voids my promise.

[Penelope35]

@lonely_astro

Read your story again.  So similar to what I went through.  The cycling. 

I remember the last time I saw him . . . it was my third try with him.  I said to him 6 weeks prior "This is our LAST chance, we are done after this, I will never talk to you again if discard me."

A

"I promise I wont, I feel different now, I'm sorry for what I've done, I'm dedicated to you, I'm your boyfriend . . . " blah blah blah.

Well sure enough, same thing happens.  He discards me another time. 

I remember saying "This is a pattern.  You're on a timeline of every 6 weeks.  It's the same thing every 6 weeks . . . why am I doing this to myself . . . "

Looking back I'm seeing all the red flags and the cycles of abuse. 

I also had a moment where I blew off a phone call at 5am from the "ex" boyfriend.

God . . . how stupid was I?

Thanks for sharing.  Sorry you had to go through that.  I feel you 100%

It's almost amazing how similar the stories of all of us are... .I remember tellung him about the pattern too. One of the things that confirmed to me he has BPD is how similar our stories are and in how similar ways the relationship and break ups have affected us. We are all wondering about the same things, struggling to understand them, trying to stay sane and not loose our own Iidentity in  this mess and so on.

My ex bf accepts responsibility too. At the beginning I thought I saw light at the end of the tunnel. Staying around showed me that he will never really get what a resposibility is. He accepts responsibility when his fear of abandonment kicks in but he will never really get how hurtful his actions were and still are

[Rmbrworst]

"It's not your fault.  We want to help those we love.  We want to help our fellow humans get through this ride we call life.  We try our best.  Unfortunately, there are those out there that don't want help (even if they say otherwise) and serve to teach us about our best qualities, even if we don't see it right now. "

Thanks for saying this.  I feel alot of the time here, the people who have suffered abuse at the hands of someone with BPD, often times put way too much blame on themselves.  Yes, looking back, I should have paid attention to some red flags . . . but I gave him the benefit of the doubt, because I loved and cared for him.

The harsh lesson learned, is that some people are not as they appear . . . and most of all.

Actions speak louder than words.

Something I say to myself often now.

[iluminati]

She may or may not go through with the help.  The question for you is could you speak to her without bitterness about the past.  If the answer is yes, go for it.  You have nothing to lose, and a friend to gain.  If it's too much, then just move on.  The key is to focus on what's best for you, not for her.  It's ultimately her recovery, and she has to deal with the consequences.

[Lonely_Astro]

"It's not your fault.  We want to help those we love.  We want to help our fellow humans get through this ride we call life.  We try our best.  Unfortunately, there are those out there that don't want help (even if they say otherwise) and serve to teach us about our best qualities, even if we don't see it right now. "

Thanks for saying this.  I feel alot of the time here, the people who have suffered abuse at the hands of someone with BPD, often times put way too much blame on themselves.  Yes, looking back, I should have paid attention to some red flags . . . but I gave him the benefit of the doubt, because I loved and cared for him.

The harsh lesson learned, is that some people are not as they appear . . . and most of all.

Actions speak louder than words.

Something I say to myself often now.

You are correct in that actions speak louder than words.

I'll probably catch some flak for this, but I feel often times others try to shift the blame back to you by saying things like "they're mentally ill" and so on.  Yes, they are mentally ill, but they are also in control of their actions. They make the conscious decision to do what they do.  They know what's 'right' and what's 'wrong'.  J is perfectly aware of what she was/is doing to me, M, N, B, R, and now this new guy in this past year.

I understand the disorder.  I can't imagine what it's like living that way.  When I think like that, I begin to feel sorry for J.  I want to give her a pass because "she's ill".  But then I think about what she did to me, I mean really did to me, and there's no excuse for it.  I wasn't abusive to her, I never lied to her, and all I ever asked of her was for her to do the best she could but talk to me when she felt herself having negative feelings about us (J is very self aware, btw).  But you know what?  She chose not to.  Instead she chose to constantly cultivate suitors, string people along, bald face lie to them, and just generally be an abusive person.  While she wasn't physically abusive, she did tell me she has the urge to be but was "always able to keep it in check", she was emotionally abusive.  And, frankly, if she could keep her physical abuse urges "under control", then why couldn't she keep the other stuff under control (i.e., cheating) as well?  Because it didn't suit her agenda, that's why.

A zebra doesn't change its stripes.  For those that don't know, J had told me in the 3 years we didn't speak she had been to DBT.  It was a straight up lie.  She wore a mask almost the entire time we were together.  Our entire r/s was built on a lie.  I didn't find this out until just a couple of weeks ago when I talked to her again. 

I caution OP about engaging with her again.  Romantic partners or even friends require two things: trust and respect.  You'll be hard pressed, it seems, to find a BPD capable of either.

[iluminati]

You are correct in that actions speak louder than words.

I'll probably catch some flak for this, but I feel often times others try to shift the blame back to you by saying things like "they're mentally ill" and so on.  Yes, they are mentally ill, but they are also in control of their actions. They make the conscious decision to do what they do.  They know what's 'right' and what's 'wrong'.  J is perfectly aware of what she was/is doing to me, M, N, B, R, and now this new guy in this past year.

A subtle distinction gets missed between the disorder and the person.  Mental illness doesn't make a person good... .or bad.  There are plenty of mentally healthy people who are just trash humans.  There are also plenty of mentally ill people who are trash humans. 

A mental illness will compel someone to attempt suicide or lash out at people close to them for no reason.  A mental illness doesn't compel someone to cheat on their husband, particularly if this isn't part of a severe episode.  That's why the nomenclature on here is PEOPLE with BPD, not BPD.  Post divorce, I had to learn what was truly the illness and what was just my BPD ex-wife being on some foolishness.  People tend to go to the extreme of either everything being mental illness or everything just poor character.  The key is to recognize that behavior occurs on a continuum, and not everything is neatly one way or another.

[Lonely_Astro]

A subtle distinction gets missed between the disorder and the person.  Mental illness doesn't make a person good... .or bad.  There are plenty of mentally healthy people who are just trash humans.  There are also plenty of mentally ill people who are trash humans. 

A mental illness will compel someone to attempt suicide or lash out at people close to them for no reason.  A mental illness doesn't compel someone to cheat on their husband, particularly if this isn't part of a severe episode.  That's why the nomenclature on here is PEOPLE with BPD, not BPD.  Post divorce, I had to learn what was truly the illness and what was just my BPD ex-wife being on some foolishness.  People tend to go to the extreme of either everything being mental illness or everything just poor character.  The key is to recognize that behavior occurs on a continuum, and not everything is neatly one way or another.

I agree, there is a fine line between the disorder and the person.  What I meant was I have seen many discussions on here turn into "well, you were in a r/s with them, so whats wrong with you?"  Nothing has to be wrong with you for you to end up in a r/s with a mentally ill person, as you said the illness doesnt make them "good" or "bad".  Some of us get into it without knowing what we're getting into in the first place and some go back in knowing theres a disorder but do so for one reason or another.  Myself, as an example, I got tied back up with J because I was led to believe that she had managed her BPD (which, btw, she explained her past behavior on... .lying, cheating, etc).  She straight out told me she had been to DBT and no longer met the criteria of BPD.  She said she sometimes still had BPD like thoughts, but that she knew how to recognize, identify, and handle those thoughts.  She took full responsibility (at the time, with no belief of any certain outcome) for what she had done to me 3 years prior.  She appeared to be a much more mature and healthy person.  So, we ended up giving it another shot only for me to find out that I had been lied to from the start when we blew up almost an exact year later.  This past year had been basically a giant lie.  All of which had been her choice to continue with.

Is she a trash human?  Absolutely.  I refuse to believe that her BPD 'forced' her to do anything.  If thats the case, she needs to be locked up in a mental ward.  The truth is, she did a lot of the things she did because she wanted to (and could).  Was there some crossover of her disorder mixed in there?  I'm sure there was, but I'm not giving her a pass for misleading me in the very beginning.  The foundation of our r/s, as I would later find out, was a complete lie: all those things she said about being "better" wasn't true and I fell for because I did, in fact, believe she was "better".  In a nutshell, I was conned.

People on here often times blame the "non" for being in the r/s with the BPD, it seems.  It also seems by the time we end up on this board, we have become co-dependant because of the trauma bond.  We want to find the fault in ourselves on why the r/s ended or why we stayed so long with them.  I've been there, done that.  I had to listen, ad nauseam, while with J why this or that was my fault (and even as to why she discarded me) or someone else's fault.  And you know what?  I'm not taking the blame for our failure because just like the beginning of our r/s, our ending was complete hogwash.

I refuse to allow anyone on this board to believe that because they showed love and care for someone that they are a 'stupid' for ignoring red flags or stayed to long or whatever.  They did what they felt was right at the time because of that love, because they are humans.  They did the best the could with the circumstances given.  They tried.  They aren't the bad guys.  The ones who made them think they were are the true villains of the story.  J is a villain, there's no other way around it.

Once again, I'm not saying that ALL BPDs are "bad".  Each one is a person, even if the majority seem to have the same patterns of behavior.  The disorder, and its subsequent chaos, sucks.  But just because a person has BPD doesn't mean they should automatically get a pass on responsibility and how they treat others because of it.  Thats the point Im trying to make.

[iluminati]

I get where you're coming from.  I've gotten that myself, considering that I both married my ex with BPD, but had a child with her.  It can be difficult to be honest with people without being exposed to criticism, particularly as a hetero man where barring strong evidence to the contrary, we'll be blamed for any drama.  It's the price we pay for getting paid more than women.  LOL

The thing is that we can't just turn around and dump it on our exes with BPD just because.  It turns out the second time around that your ex was just a cheating, lying female dog.  Be mad at her for that, but that isn't a BPD issue as much as it is her being a crummy girlfriend.

[Penelope35]

The thing is that we can't just turn around and dump it on our exes with BPD just because.  It turns out the second time around that your ex was just a cheating, lying female dog.  Be mad at her for that, but that isn't a BPD issue as much as it is her being a crummy girlfriend.

I am a little confused with this matter... .yes lying and cheating is a choice for people with BPD as it is for people with no mental health issues. However, the cause of their lying and cheating doesn't also have to do with the core characteristics of their disorder? I kind of think that the extend of their lying and cheating (for those who do engage in these kinds of behavior) are to a great extend driven by their inner conflicts.  For example they start to work on finding the replacement, so cheat and lie because of their fears of abandonment and/or engulfement.

What do you think?

[iluminati]

The thing is that we can't just turn around and dump it on our exes with BPD just because.  It turns out the second time around that your ex was just a cheating, lying female dog.  Be mad at her for that, but that isn't a BPD issue as much as it is her being a crummy girlfriend.

I am a little confused with this matter... .yes lying and cheating is a choice for people with BPD as it is for people with no mental health issues. However, the cause of their lying and cheating doesn't also have to do with the core characteristics of their disorder? I kind of think that the extend of their lying and cheating (for those who do engage in these kinds of behavior) are to a great extend driven by their inner conflicts.  For example they start to work on finding the replacement, so cheat and lie because of their fears of abandonment and/or engulfement.

What do you think?

You're right in that the cheating is driven by their inner conflicts.  However, their inner conflicts don't necessarily drive them to cheat, as cheating is one of a variety of options to deal with them.  The best way I can put it is BPD has to do more with the why and how of behavior as opposed to what the behavior is.  There are also certain hallmarks of BPD cheating that isn't common among the greater population.  When figuring out if BPD is behind something, you have to figure out the deeper motives, not what is literally happening.

[Turkish]

The thing is that we can't just turn around and dump it on our exes with BPD just because.  It turns out the second time around that your ex was just a cheating, lying female dog.  Be mad at her for that, but that isn't a BPD issue as much as it is her being a crummy girlfriend.

I am a little confused with this matter... .yes lying and cheating is a choice for people with BPD as it is for people with no mental health issues. However, the cause of their lying and cheating doesn't also have to do with the core characteristics of their disorder? I kind of think that the extend of their lying and cheating (for those who do engage in these kinds of behavior) are to a great extend driven by their inner conflicts.  

Christine Ann Lawson PhD, in Understanding The Borderline Mother, comments:



Distortion is an unconscious way of processing information that reflects the individual's reality.

This falls into the category of perceptual distortions, such as false accusations of abuse.

Lawson goes on:

Some borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintain self-esteem, or avoid conflict. Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention and concern.

Here I would say that this is little different than what motivates people to lie in general  

Yet:

From the borderline's perspective, however, lying feels essential to survival... . (emphasis mine)

Where we as "nons" may have trouble understanding is what's behind this, and how it's related to the disorder.

... .(Although not all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.) When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent of wrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse, Aplogies are rare, therefore, and borderlines may be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, "But I had to!" Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying... .

Basically because he or she felt that they had no other option.  

[Lonely_Astro]

J blamed her cheating on a host of things, BPD being one of the reasons.  The first hard evidence I had she was cheating came in July when I found out she had dated a guy for that month without me knowing it.  Her reasoning for it was because I didn't go to a wedding with her at the end of June "like I had promised" way back in December (our mutual situations wouldn't allow me to go by June). We also had a huge fight when she pointed her ex (who she had cheated on me with 3.5 years earlier with) out to me while we were having lunch by saying "that was your least favorite person who just drove by and was looking hard this way to see who I was with".  I didn't get it, so I asked her "what?"  She replied with "that was N that just drove by and he was looking hard this way."  I was on a tear about work and after several weeks of bottling up my suspicion she was seeing N, I snapped on her.

So, her reasoning for cheating on me with B was "because you were going to leave me because you broke your promise to me about the wedding and you talked harshly to me about N.  I thought you of all people would never talk to me like that and I can see you hate me".  So, it was MY fault she was probably seeing N (the rumor had been that's what set her and her husband M into a divorce, btw), was so insensitive to not coddle her after pointing him out even though in theory he didn't know what her car looked like by saying that to me, and because I "broke a promise" to her that led her to believe I was going to abandon her, even though I didn't, she chose to cheat on with me B and blamed her BPD.

Once again, I'm not saying pwBPD are "bad".  J was and is.

[bryan2183]

I think the hardest part of it all is reminding myself on a daily  basis that just because she seems better on any given email, interaction, phone call, etc. that if I were to return all the way it would just go back to the same old stuff. How does anyone really know that their pwBPD has ever truly gotten better?

[steelwork]

.

They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, "But I had to!" Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying... .[/i]

Basically because he or she felt that they had no other option.  

This reminds me of something my ex said to me: that he would never love another woman, but he would "lie so I can keep her."

It SOUNDS romantic maybe, but I found it deeply disturbing. The easy justification of what I think is among the evilest of lies.

[steelwork]

It also strikes me that the lie would be intended to prevent abandonment. I should remember that when I start thinking maybe I've exaggerated the red flags.