Threats from BPDm through SD

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My SD7 teary eyed broke down at bedtime tonight to say she was very concerned that BPDm was going to take me away from her. I was confused and asked for clarification.

SD says, " my mom says she wants you dead, she wants to stab you with a knife until you can't try to take me away from her any more".

For those of you not following our story, we ARE in the middle of a change of custody and they are leaning toward giving mom supervised visits because of her PA, temper, and inappropriate language and actions while with SD7. It's been a long road and we are all pretty worn out. They gave BPDm a roadmap a year ago to gain more time with SD, ( she has seven days a month) but she has failed on all counts.

My concern is two fold: should I be worried about violence from this woman? Is bringing this to someone's attention a necessary thing or is that just hearsay?

Do I worry about SD's safety? This isn't anywhere near a normal thing to say to your child. BPDm is clearly off the rails. We went to court four weeks ago on an exparte to try to get mom in supervised asap, but judge wanted mediators opinion. Do we go back now for her safety? This feels weird.

[bravhart1]

My SD7 teary eyed broke down at bedtime tonight to say she was very concerned that BPDm was going to take me away from her. I was confused and asked for clarification.

SD says, " my mom says she wants you dead, she wants to stab you with a knife until you can't try to take me away from her any more".

For those of you not following our story, we ARE in the middle of a change of custody and they are leaning toward giving mom supervised visits because of her PA, temper, and inappropriate language and actions while with SD7. It's been a long road and we are all pretty worn out. They gave BPDm a roadmap a year ago to gain more time with SD, ( she has seven days a month) but she has failed on all counts.

My concern is two fold: should I be worried about violence from this woman? Is bringing this to someone's attention a necessary thing or is that just hearsay?

Do I worry about SD's safety? This isn't anywhere near a normal thing to say to your child. BPDm is clearly off the rails. We went to court four weeks ago on an exparte to try to get mom in supervised asap, but judge wanted mediators opinion. Do we go back now for her safety? This feels weird.

[sanemom]

When is SD7 going to see her therapist next?  I would very much let her therapist know, and see if she tells her therapist more about it. 

Has BPD mom ever been violent? 

[bravhart1]

No therapy till next week. But SD is so shut down in therapy that she doesn't tell anything. Think I'm going to go in with her and see if she will tell what she told me and DH.

Not violent to another adult, but to children yes. Personally I think she is very unstable. I feel like anything is possible with her. We sent email to attorney.

Ironically, the good news is that SD wanted to get herself and her dog out of moms house. In the past I think she would have identified with mom, but she seems to have pushed through and now wants to protect dog, which I take as a VERY good sign. Silver linings where we can find them these days.

This sucks.

[david]

Looking for a positive here. SD talked to you about it so she has some level of trust in you. That is big deal. My ex used alienation tactics against me when she first ran away. It took me over a year before they started to show any signs of trust. Our older boy was first. He was around 9 at the time. It took our younger one twice as long. Once they opened up about their concerns I was able to listen and validate their concerns.

[bravhart1]

Thanks David.

So what do you think? Should I be worried about violence to SD or myself?

[Thunderstruck]

My concern is two fold: should I be worried about violence from this woman? Is bringing this to someone's attention a necessary thing or is that just hearsay?

Do I worry about SD's safety? This isn't anywhere near a normal thing to say to your child. BPDm is clearly off the rails. We went to court four weeks ago on an exparte to try to get mom in supervised asap, but judge wanted mediators opinion. Do we go back now for her safety? This feels weird.

Legally, I don't think this is actionable. It is hearsay, and it's the word of a 7 year old so unfortunately the court probably wouldn't grant a TRO. :/

It sounds like BPDmom is dysregulating for sure. I don't think it's unreasonable to take precautions to safeguard yourself. You could carry mace, definitely lock your doors at all times, and if she shows up uninvited call the police. The first time you call them, they will tell her she's trespassing and ask her to leave. If she shows up again after that then they can arrest her.

As for SD... .I really don't know what to do. I think SD talking to the T is a really good suggestion. Ts are mandatory reporters so if the T thinks it's an issue then it'll go to CPS. In the past our uBPDbm made threats to SD(then 8) to commit suicide and we went and talked about it to the school counselor. Would SD feel more comfortable talking to someone at school?

How much longer is mediation supposed to take?

I wonder since it's a threat against you and not against SD, if you would even be able to take legal action to safeguard SD? Maybe you could read up on the law about making threats?

[david]

I was food shopping years ago. It was during the first year that ex ran away. This woman comes up to me and says hello. She realized I had no idea who she wanted me to guess. Finally she gave me a clue and it was a woman that worked at my ex's workplace. She then told me that my ex was very angry ( as if I didn't already know  ) and said to anyone at work that would listen that she wanted to pull my eyeballs out and smash them in the ground with her boots. I think if she believed she could get away with it she may have tried but I believe it was more dysregulation.

SD's therapist may not have the trust she needs to get SD to open up. You may want to talk to therapist about that and see if she thinks there is any progress going on between them. If not , it may take more time or SD may need someone else. If SD feels more comfortable with the school counselor the two, school counselor and therapist,  may be able to work together.

[livednlearned]

Wow.

So awful that you're dealing with this.

Great idea to talk to the T and have a joint session with SD. I wouldn't even give her a heads up, just go in together and let SD share what she shared with you.

My ex said equally disturbing things to S14. The way you feel is probably the same level of distress SD feels, if not more. My son was very clingy after our worst episode and had a really hard time focusing in school. Teachers might need a heads up, if they don't already know.

I do think it's a good idea to take safety precautions, including changing your routine, and maybe telling your employer that you have serious concerns. I opened a police report with campus police -- this was intended as a proactive measure. Not sure if it's necessary to do, but it made me feel better going through the list of things to do just in case.

[sanemom]

I would be as proactive as possible without going over the top... .I think the group session is a good idea if she won't talk otherwise.  Poor kid... .and she is not going to be able to put this kind of behavior in perspective for years. 

[Ulysses]

That must feel awful to be on the receiving end of so much animosity.

I wonder if there is a school counselor who can also work with your SD?  My D's school counselor  worked with her until there was a more solid relationship built up between D7 and T.  D7 already had a couple of years in the school, and the school counselor worked in the classrooms frequently on SEL, so there was somewhat of a relationship there already.

No telling what SD's mother is thinking.  She is experiencing a lot of pain right now, and fear.  I remember my exH's old affair partner threatened me a few times.  One time, she posted a blog, naming me, and saying she would "kill the mother-f***er."  When I told my exNPD/BPDh (we were still married at the time, and in MC, and he had ceased contact with her) what she had written, he laughed.  Kind-of sent chills down my spine, actually.  When I asked what seemed funny about it, he said he thought it was a funny turn-of-phrase.  Luckily that affair partner lived across the country so I never thought she would ever really confront me.

Is what your SD's mother said, an example of when a BPD feels a tremendous amount of pain and fear, and, not knowing how to tolerate or express it, they try to get others to feel those feelings, too?  I sometimes feel quite new to trying to understand these things, so I apologize if this is obvious to others.  I'm sorry your SD is going through these things.

I am curious, what does your H say/think about this situation?  Does he have the type of relationship currently with his D, that he can talk with her?

I hope things calm down for you soon.

[bravhart1]

T has made it clear BPDm has poisoned the well where T is concerned. We are going to put SD in psychiatrist as soon as we can get mom out of the picture. T has made it clear that sending SD to Psych now would just end the same way, with mom instructing her to not tell anything or it will hurt mom.

Mom has also already tainted school psych byhaving SD ask to see her at the beginning of the year and was instructed to tell SC all about her not wanting to be at dads. We weren't too happy to find out that mom had agreed to these sessions at school but told SC nothing about our real situation, like how she didn't have any authority or legal custody to sign her consent. We weren't happy with SC that she unwittingly played into BPDms hands and was about to write a report when principal found out and said she should read the order on file with the school. Once she did that she tried to back track, say she only met with SD a few times and would need to get DHs consent to continue, to which we said no thanks, and you should have checked with teacher or principle before starting your therapy with any student. I asked her how many first graders she had ever had "request" to see her before,... .ya none.

Kind of the BIG red flag that something was amiss.

I also think she was too eager to believe SD and moms side without even asking for input from DH. Th fact that neither we or SD's regular T had NO idea SD was even meeting with SC, as mom asked to keep it hush hush, was her second clue.

We are trying to see if anything can be done, but to tell you the truth no one seems to be too anxious to get involved, so I guess BPDm just gets to say this stuff and get away with it.

Guess the threat of brutally murdering SD's step parent isn't too damaging for a 7 yr old.

[enlighten me]

Im a bit concerned by some of the replies here.

The big thing that people seem to be missing is the graphic imagery that is being portrayed to a seven year old. I think its very serious and even though she is seven I think she will be listened to by the authorities. What mum has said has highlighted her unstable state of mind.

I would get sd out of her mums and safely to yours. I would inform the police of the threatening behaviour and say you fear for sd safety. In the UK I would involve social services as they do not mess about with this sort of thing.

There have been too many tragic cases in the UK where a parent has harmed a child that they fear will be taken away from them. I know it may sound dramatic but better safe than sorry.

[Nope]

Here is the thing. You either have to report it and go all the way with it or completely let it go as if it go. If you do nothing about it then you will be asked why you did nothing if it was supposedly so serious. It's much better to err on the side of getting the authorities involved than to wish later that you had.

Most likely SD will not cooperate when asked by others to confirm that she said her mother said that. It'll be your word about what the little girl said against BPD mom's version of events. However, over time during this process it'll become clear that you are sane, reasonable, and not a liar. It'll also become clear that the same can't be said for the mom. So tough ultimately it can't b proven it will still be considered by the court. But only if you act in such a way as to demonstrate that the threat is real and credible.

[livednlearned]

bravhart1, are you saying that SD's current T is biased against you?

Can you say more about how you think it would play out if you asked to see T with SD, and to talk about what happened?

[bravhart1]

Thanks guys,

SD's is NOT biased against us, she is a lame duck for SD as ,more has told her do not tell her anything. BPDm has told SD that T is against her, even though while in reality T may very well feel that way, she has been nothing but even handed and neutral. But anyone who isn't saying dad is a monster and bravhart isn't evil is against mom in her mind. Which is why we want to send SD to another psychiatrist after we can be sure mom won't tell SD to not trust that person too. T is totally on board, and frankly probably a bit anxious to get BPDm out of her life too.

It may be possible that SD would open up with T if I were there encouraging it, just don't want SD to feel pressured. I try to be very careful about not ruining my trust with SD, as T puts it, one of the reasons she shares more with me than anyone else is because SD knows I don't ever talk to BPDm and even if I did in the future, no way mom would believe me( in SD's mind).

I have written a very clear detailed email the night it was told to us. Sent to attorney marked urgent. He responded to send to T, sent to T, no word. She may be on vacation. Not sure what more I can do?

[livednlearned]

Not sure what more I can do?

All the Ts I've worked with over the last 5 years are very cautious about communicating by email. Ts that do continuing education and go to professional associations hear a lot about email and litigation. Maybe your T is choosing to not engage by email for these reasons?

I would follow up by phone with the T. Then take notes of the call. And send those notes to your L.

My ex had a psychotic episode and during that time, told S14 (11 at the time) that he wanted to borrow S14's bat to beat me.

S14 blurted this out to me while we were in the grocery store. I told my lawyer, who entered it into the emergency motion we were filing to temporarily suspend visitation. The psychotic episode involved other things, but this comment from S14 was entered -- to my horror, I will say. Because I was so fearful that S14 would be punished by N/BPDx for telling me.

Both lawyers involved in my case insisted on including it. My therapist was horrified by the comment N/BPDx made to S14 because of all the psychological and emotional damage. I think I was numb before talking to my T. When you have someone BPD in your life, your tolerance for this goes up and then there is a paralysis with all the court proceedings, trying to second guess everything.

Looking back, I'm relieved that my advocates shone sunlight on the comment, even though it felt like we were putting S14 at risk. They were able to see long-term damage control, whereas I was always in the short-game, trying to manage the ongoing fires that kept popping up. I don't think I had the strength at the time, and was too concerned about immediate threats to S14.

What are you thinking about doing next?

[bravhart1]

I totally get what you are saying. Yes we have become numb and conditioned to this stuff. It's sad.

T knows she can call, she does it all the time. She also knows that after four years she can trust us to NOT use her emails in court and she knows we know why. We need her and we aren't trying to feed BPDm any fuel to sue her. She has sent many emails that if we were willing to give to L would have gained us further down the road than this, but she has made it clear some stuff just isnt shareable with L and we have good relationship with her to vet what does get used.

I guess we will call her and L back today to say "what can be done". L thought T would call CPS and that would get ball rolling. I DO think SD would tell CPS what she told me. But I'm worried ( not sure about what or why) about calling CPS myself.

[Thunderstruck]

I totally get what you are saying. Yes we have become numb and conditioned to this stuff. It's sad.

T knows she can call, she does it all the time. She also knows that after four years she can trust us to NOT use her emails in court and she knows we know why. We need her and we aren't trying to feed BPDm any fuel to sue her. She has sent many emails that if we were willing to give to L would have gained us further down the road than this, but she has made it clear some stuff just isnt shareable with L and we have good relationship with her to vet what does get used.

I guess we will call her and L back today to say "what can be done". L thought T would call CPS and that would get ball rolling. I DO think SD would tell CPS what she told me. But I'm worried ( not sure about what or why) about calling CPS myself.

I've called CPS before. They said I was being "vengeful" and disregarded my claim. 

Your L might also caution against it. It could be seen as trying to sway the mediation decision in your favor.

[livednlearned]

I guess we will call her and L back today to say "what can be done". L thought T would call CPS and that would get ball rolling.

I would not be surprised if your T is consulting with other colleagues. It's possible she is behind on email. It's also very possible she is trying to figure out the best way to handle this. Her priority is SD, and T may know that her actions will set off a series of actions, and she wants to think through how best to proceed.

I'm worried ( not sure about what or why) about calling CPS myself.

I understand. I would feel the same way. Because you invite yet another third-party evaluation into your life, and don't know who you will get, or whether they will make things worse. And because if you call, it may look like you're stacking the deck, and you're tired and just want the current process in place to work, for once. And because SD has a T, and what should be a trusted relationship, someone she can talk to who can help her process any feelings about outing her mom.

:'(

It's the holidays, you're at the end of a long, exhausting CE process, after watching the courts give biomom 5 and 6 and 7 chances, meanwhile watching SD get worse. And now this.

Your L seems to be kicking the issue back to the T. Is there a reason why he/she does not want this shared with the CE?  :)o you think adding this to the CE would help things?

[bravhart1]

We are in mediation. That was one shot to speak to mediator, he calls and questions other sources and sends recommendation to both parties and judge. We have court end of month and judges are known for rubber stamping whatever mediator says.

We could just wait the limited time we have left until this happens, but BPDm seems to be losing it harder than usual with the stress of the mediation. Which is why we asked judge to put mom in supervised while we are going through this. For just this reason. We were worried about this exact thing.

I'm just really worried about SD right now. Mom is running out of ways to hurt us and I don't like to hear she's talking about violence. She may be a lot of things, but she is 100%  a projection artist and telegrapher of her intentions. All of her bad acts usually came with a thinly veiled warning. I hope we get SD out of there soon.