BPDh talks to his son, then tells me to "Get out"...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm so tired of the threats BPDh makes. He knows they scare me, but he just can't let me have any measure of security. His son called him. It was obvious they'd made plans behind my back to see a movie that BPDh had promised me we'd go see together. Then, the conversation was winding up, and his son(the only kid of his who I thought didn't hate me) tells his Dad he "doesn't want Ceruleanblue in my life anymore", and that he doesn't want to be around me. According to him, it's because he thinks I support Donald Trump. I really don't, but his son was saying some crazy stuff when we took him out for lunch. Saying it would be worth doing the time if he could kill Trump. Going on a Bernie Sanders rant and telling his Dad he'll disown him if he votes for Trump. Now, BPDh and I are not very political, and I just found my step son's behavior offensive, and sort of crazy.

Well, two weeks after this lunch, he drops this bomb on BPDh, and I overhear it because the phone is loud. I cross my arms like "seriously" and BPDh does his usual of not standing up for me, and repeatedly telling his son I was kidding at lunch, and I don't like Trump.

1) I can like whichever candidate I want.

2) Carving people out of your life because you don't like their political views is just WRONG.

It ends by BPDh threatening me by telling me to "Get the F out". Saying I don't have the right to tell him what he can and can't do with his son. I only said if he goes to this movie with his son, after his son clearly threatened to ban me(just like the girls have been doing for years now), that I would be VERY HURT. It's like I can't even have opinions or views in this crazy family. They are all so black and white, with the exception of BPDh's siblings. This seems to be how BPDh and his kids all behave and think though.

So, now I'm hurt because I feel I was disrespected by both BPDh and his son, and this looks like it could be the start of years of crazy, just like it has been with his daughters. What is wrong with these people that they always just want to be mad, angry, and judging others? If you don't agree with them, or let them control you, they carve you out.

And I'm hurt because BPDh had told me a couple weeks ago that he knows it hurts me when he threatens, and that he'd try to stop doing that. I'm now scared again, because every time his kids pull this crap, he wants to ditch me, and the marriage. Crazy kids, BPD, and the fact that I struggle with boundaries, is not a good combo.

I thought telling BPDh how uncool his son's threats were was me enforcing a boundary, but as usual, all I got was a blow up, and threats.

How to best deal with this? I'm not thinking very clearly right now... .

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm so tired of the threats BPDh makes. He knows they scare me, but he just can't let me have any measure of security. His son called him. It was obvious they'd made plans behind my back to see a movie that BPDh had promised me we'd go see together. Then, the conversation was winding up, and his son(the only kid of his who I thought didn't hate me) tells his Dad he "doesn't want Ceruleanblue in my life anymore", and that he doesn't want to be around me. According to him, it's because he thinks I support Donald Trump. I really don't, but his son was saying some crazy stuff when we took him out for lunch. Saying it would be worth doing the time if he could kill Trump. Going on a Bernie Sanders rant and telling his Dad he'll disown him if he votes for Trump. Now, BPDh and I are not very political, and I just found my step son's behavior offensive, and sort of crazy.

Well, two weeks after this lunch, he drops this bomb on BPDh, and I overhear it because the phone is loud. I cross my arms like "seriously" and BPDh does his usual of not standing up for me, and repeatedly telling his son I was kidding at lunch, and I don't like Trump.

1) I can like whichever candidate I want.

2) Carving people out of your life because you don't like their political views is just WRONG.

It ends by BPDh threatening me by telling me to "Get the F out". Saying I don't have the right to tell him what he can and can't do with his son. I only said if he goes to this movie with his son, after his son clearly threatened to ban me(just like the girls have been doing for years now), that I would be VERY HURT. It's like I can't even have opinions or views in this crazy family. They are all so black and white, with the exception of BPDh's siblings. This seems to be how BPDh and his kids all behave and think though.

So, now I'm hurt because I feel I was disrespected by both BPDh and his son, and this looks like it could be the start of years of crazy, just like it has been with his daughters. What is wrong with these people that they always just want to be mad, angry, and judging others? If you don't agree with them, or let them control you, they carve you out.

And I'm hurt because BPDh had told me a couple weeks ago that he knows it hurts me when he threatens, and that he'd try to stop doing that. I'm now scared again, because every time his kids pull this crap, he wants to ditch me, and the marriage. Crazy kids, BPD, and the fact that I struggle with boundaries, is not a good combo.

I thought telling BPDh how uncool his son's threats were was me enforcing a boundary, but as usual, all I got was a blow up, and threats.

How to best deal with this? I'm not thinking very clearly right now... .

[Sunfl0wer]

I am currently trying to learn about boundaries.  Is it typically helpful to express decided boundaries? Or just keep them to yourself?

[Ceruleanblue]

I've done it both ways. If I think it's going to set him off, I just live it, I don't outline it to BPDh. But with this most recent thing, I felt I had to take a stand. I have a right to my political views! I have a right to not be banned and excluded for them. How is this any different than racism, or gay bashing? I don't think it is.

This just blindsided me, and I'm hurt that BPDh didn't tell his son that cutting people off isn't a healthy, or adult way to deal with difference of opinion. The more I learn of BPDh, the more I see he wasn't such a great Dad, he was a dependent Dad(depended on his kids for his ego boost, and enmeshment), and he refuses to parent.

In this case, I don't even know how I could have just set an invisible boundary. His son was invited over for Christmas, and BPDh has made it pretty clear that if his son comes over, I may have to clear out? What? :'(

BPDh also judges me on my relationship with my son(the one he kicked out), yet he hasn't been around to SEE that my boundaries are much higher with my son now. I've improved in that area by leaps and bounds, and my parents have seen it, but BPDh just assumes and paints me black.

This is all pretty unfair, and I feel like I attached my car to the crazy train.

[Notwendy]

This pattern with you, DH, and his kids is a triangle. Do you see this pattern? The kids give dad the ultimatum- her or us. Dad sides with them, you feel hurt. The reason- be it politics or anything else, changes but the pattern is the same.

This is how dysfunctional families operate- on the drama triangle, the two against the one out. A relationship between two dysfunctional people is more stable if the two of them are bonded against a common third. This way, they are focused outward, and not on themselves or the relationship between themselves. Drama triangles are a way to have stability between two dysfunctional people.

When kids tell their Dad to exclude you, you expect your H to bond with you, and say no to them. This is still a triangle H bonding with you, kids as the third. The kids were in his life before you were. This pattern is probably very fixed in their family. Once you get into it by wanting your H to stand up for you, you are on the triangle. Although you want him to stand up for you, you can not control his choices, only yours. Focusing on your choices, not looking at your H to make the choice you wish for him to do, may be a way to stay out of the triangle drama.

What is your boundary when H says if son comes for Christmas, then you have to leave, or to tell you to get out?

What about your son? It it possible for you to spend Christmas with your parents and son, and let your H have Christmas with his family? This may not be your ideal Christmas, but it may actually be the happier one for all of you.

[Ceruleanblue]

I already suggested that to BPDh, after he basically made me feel like I had to clear out, because his son doesn't want to be around me. I certainly can go spend my holiday at my parents, it's just sad because I'd planned nice things for us here. His son has never spent Christmas day with us, and so it was sort of shocking for his to agree to come, then say that. It feels to me like his kids are always trying to "oust" me from my home, and from BPDh's life.

I DO see that this is a major triangle. I try to always do the right thing, and make peace, or keep peace with his kids, but they DO NOT want peace. I think that is where the BPD traits and triangle come into play. I keep trying to rise about the triangle, but it just feels like to totally be out of the triangle, I'll have to walk away from BPDh. His kids practice all or nothing mentality, and BPDh is afraid to rock the boat. At this point, I'm really not even wanting to be around his son. I'm hurt, and also angry at the things he said. I've never judged him, even though I don't approve of some of the things he's done, I've kept it to myself. He's blamed for things I have not done though, which saddens me.

I had a nice Christmas planned with my kids, and step son, and now it looks like that won't be happening. He doesn't want to be around me, and I'm sure nothing BPDh says will change that. Plus, after step son has shown how he's willing to cut me out for a simple matter of differing opinions, I'm not too eager to be around him... .

[Notwendy]

Even being the good person in this relationship is a part of the triangle. There isn't anything wrong with what you did, but that what happened has you feeling hurt and upset. Feeling that you did the right thing, and that the two of them, in a sense, turned against you. The roles of victim, persecutor, and rescuer are fluid and that each person can play all three roles. This is the way dysfunction plays out- like a well rehearsed sports play, and round and round and round it goes.

Whatever the situation, be it a holiday, the children, politics, job loss. Taking the "good guy" approach in these relationships enters the triangle in the role of rescuer, good person, hero, taking the high road, caretaker, being loving------ with an expectation that the actions of the rescuer will be recognized, the people involved will acknowledge the value of the rescuer- will see your good efforts and appreciate you. None of this is a bad thing, you are being the good person here. But the dynamics of the triangle, being what they are, is this:

All roles lead to Victim. - the rescuer becomes the victim in the sense that his/her expectations are not met, he/she feels hurt, and may persist in rescuing in hope that the next time will be different.

Persecutor and Victim are both victims as the role is interchangeable and each one can perceive themselves as the victim and the other as persecutor.

This is not conscious or voluntary. It is a dance that the family plays that keeps them stable.

How does that play out in this family?

Child makes you the persecutor. It doesn't matter what the reason is- today it is politics, tomorrow it is something else. He goes into victim mode and turns to Dad ( I can not be with that woman) . I know that you didn't do anything wrong. You do have the right to your political opinion. It is that he has a need to make someone wrong. He has to have a persecutor. It is a part of him that does this, and it is out of your control. So his going into victim mode, putting you in persecutor mode, gets Dad into rescuer mode. Dad rescues son from you.


H wants to be the good guy too. The hero. However, the hero has to make everyone happy and he has to look good. How does he do this? By playing both sides of the card and hoping that it works. It doesn't work, but for the moment, he doesn't need to worry about that. He agrees to a movie with you. Son then asks him so he agrees to that too. Yeah, he's looking good, for now, but he's created a dilemma. When that happens, and you are upset, it makes him feel like the bad guy. He goes into victim mode. He doesn't see this as a result of his own actions but something coming from you. He sees you as the cause of him not being a good guy- you are persecutor. The reaction to feeling persecuted is to fight back. That is when he gets angry and aggressive with you, and in the moment, he feels justified at his anger. This works for him because it gets him out of the dilemma, you are painted black, he goes with his son. He could have done this the other way, but for now, you are the one that he does this with.

Right now, son and your H see you as the persecutor, H has just rescued his son. In addition, one can play all three roles with any number of people, including oneself. H makes plans with you both. Then, he has a dilemma. He then "rescues" himself by his actions, and so, he does not have to assume responsibility for his actions.

Now, for your part, and I hope that you take this with good intent. I know this role well because this was my role in my FOO as well as in my marriage. I very much tried to take the high road, hoping that it would make a difference. I think it does make a difference- and I still choose to be as ethical and caring as I can. Like you, I believe that these values are important to me. I don't want to behave otherwise. However, I did want to stop being on the triangle- because it did seem that my good intentions led to me feeling hurt. I also saw that my actions as good as I thought they were were being self serving in a way. We all take on these roles because there is an emotional payoff and an emotional cost. I didn't want to do it anymore. Staying off the triangle isn't easy. It took a lot of work to change. I can't tell you what yours is, but working with a T and co-dependency group was mine.

Hero/good person enters the triangle with hopes of something too- validation, recognition. It's a co-dependent endeavor because, it places the person's feelings in the hands of the other two- wanting something, acceptance, love, a good outcome. However, rescuer can be perceived as persecutor to one or more of the others on the triangle. They see themselves as victim, they act out, and rescuer finds him/herself being maligned by the others, hurt and feeling bad and is now the victim.

You are hurt right now, feeling slighted over something like your politics. You are upset over disrupted plans for Christmas. And you believe you do not deserve any of it because you are the good guy here, and they are the ones who are messed up. Right now at this moment, you are in victim role, they are in persecutor role.

One does not have to do anything "wrong", bad or hurtful to interact on the drama triangle. How to not be on the triangle while still keeping our ethics is a challenge, but it takes a change in perspective to stay off of it. It also requires a decision about what is being good to someone and what is not, some self reflection about what is enabling and what isn't. It is hard. It also requires doing for the sake of doing something, regardless of how anyone else sees it. You can prepare a nice Christmas, but if they don't want to participate, that is their choice. It is disappointing for sure, but they have choices, and you have yours. Acceptance includes accepting this, and acting ethically for the sake of that action alone, irregardless of if they recognize it.

You are not doing anything wrong, but you are experiencing distress from this triangle. Acceptance, knowing you have choices,  can help the distress part.

[sweetheart]

CB can you see how you are going around and around with same stuff every time your h or his family do their thing?

You are perpetually trapped in a triangle of conflict where you are either rescuing, persecuting, or feel as though you are the victim.

Nothing will change for you until you step out of the conflict.

You had some great advise from MayBeSo on another thread, that also applies here.

With regards to you telling your h how you feel about his sons threats, this is not enforcing a boundary. Not engaging in conversation about it in anyway would have been enforcing a boundary.

Sorry if I cross posted.

[Notwendy]

Not a cross post at all.

When we find ourselves in a persistent pattern, we have to reflect on our own actions and why we are doing it. Behaviors persist when there is an emotional payoff. We may not know what that is. It may be unconscious, or doing something that is familiar, or out of fear, but whatever it is, we need to try to be aware of the payoff because it is what is keeping us in the conflict triangle.

I think the emotional costs are evident. The question is why is this pattern persistent? It may be persistent for the other people involved, but one can not make them change.

Doing the same thing over and over again is likely to have the same results. Making a change can have different results, but they are unpredictable and so that is an uncomfortable situation.

[formflier]

 I try to always do the right thing, and make peace, or keep peace with his kids, but they DO NOT want peace.   

      This is what you can change.  CB is the reliable peacemaker.  You play your role well.  They have come to expect it.  If you can change this, you can step out of the  triangle that you have been LOCKED in for a long time.  Can you change this role?      

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I read, and then reread, NotWendy's post. I do agree I'm part of the triangle, but I disagree with the part of me expecting anything. I don't do the right thing thinking I'll get anything from BPDh or this bunch. That hope or belief died a long time ago. I know that even being "perfect"(and no one is), wouldn't work for this bunch, because they deal in a skewed reality, and twist things to suit being make to feel persecuted. I don't feel persecuted or victimized, unlike them, because it's MY choice to do what my moral compass tells me is right. It just hurts me that they all want to believe my intent is always bad, rather than good. I feel their perception is off, not mine. I'm not the one always making threats or saying I won't be around THEM.

I do try to do the right thing for ME, not to get anything back from any of them. I realized anything good I do for any of them is like throwing energy down a bottomless hole. It's useless.

So, if I'm to stop being the peacemaker, or part of the triangle, but still uphold my sense of right/wrong, how do I do that? At the end of the day, I want to be able to look myself in the mirror, and say I know "I" did the right thing, even if no one else acknowledges it. I'm one of those "do the right thing, even if no one sees it" sort of person. I often tell myself "just do what's right". But what is "right"?

I don't want to be part of the triangle, and I feel like I've been left out flapping in the wind by this bunch. Buffeted by all their threats, crazy demands, blame and mostly anger.

How do I just step off? I need clear ideas for NOW, for this holiday. I'm too close to see what I need to do. I have some ideas, but maybe I'm so bogged down in the triangle, I can't see my way out. Here are my ideas for stepping off, and letting them all deal with their own drama:

1) I go back to my hometown and stay on Christmas Eve at my parent's house, be with my son, and celebrate Christmas there. My daughter would go with me of course. I fear this would set BPDh off, and earn me more divorce threats(I do a lot to avoid this). He'll see this as being slighted, and avoiding his son.

2) I stay home, my son comes over as planned. I think I'll feel upset/anxious that my holiday is spent being around his now hostile son, and hoping BPDh doesn't go off on my son. This is the scenario that is least likely to set off BPDh, but I don't want to base my plans on that anymore, because that is being part of the triangle?

I'm open to suggestion and ideas. Plus, I'm sick, and hope to be over this cold by Christmas, but my parents are elderly, and I hate to expose them to this, and my Mom is very weird about being around sick people. I just wish I could see a clear path here.

[Sunfl0wer]

CB,

I am curious how you work this out as it is something I feel I struggle with at times as well.  Being the peacekeeper comes natural to me at times... .and realizing that this role can be part of the triangle as well... .well, feels rather perplexing!

How do I just step off? I need clear ideas for NOW, for this holiday. I'm too close to see what I need to do. I have some ideas, but maybe I'm so bogged down in the triangle, I can't see my way out. Here are my ideas for stepping off, and letting them all deal with their own drama:

I wonder if the solution is... .

Find the option that you feel will enable you to be the least emotionally reactive at any given moment. 

So maybe you decide on a low key choice, yet encounter some conflict that is aggravating, then you need to make another decision to remove yourself from the interactions until you can find a way to be most reactionless/bothered.  This may be in their company or not, and it may change.

What do you think of this? 

  _{Idk here, I really am asking if this is an answer, or if something else is.}

[Sunfl0wer]

Also, I wonder if there is an in between option to consider. 

Such as... .

I will have Christmas at my home because I am sick and that makes sense.  However, if I am feeling up to it, then I will also split the time and visit my parents with my kids.  That may leave some doors open for you to test the waters of what the climate is like in your home, leaving you an open door to visit your mom if the intensity feels building.

[Ceruleanblue]

I feel at times, I try to do what's right, and have the attitude of "let the chips fall where they may", but I end up being very uncomfortable with their reactions to that. I think this is where I struggle, and get roped back in. I'll know I did what I thought was "right" or "kind", yet they'll still be upset, and then I feel I failed. I have to stop taking their reactions as a reflection of MY actions, maybe?

I mean, I can't help or control how they are going to react, and I have the right to act by my own moral compass and set of ideals. Guilt and other people's unhappiness, has always been a big motivator to me. I guess I just need to stop trying to placate that inner niggle. My therapist and I have been working on that.

Ideally, I'd like to run this by BPDh and come up with a solution to the Christmas day plans, but I know he's such a force to be reckoned with, and will likely steamroll and guilt me, or become angry, that I run a risk trying to figure it out together. His BPD/NPD or maybe it's APD(which I now strongly suspect), makes it very hard to communicate.

I need to come up with a plan for me and my kids' holiday. But I also don't want to create a huge war with BPDh being so unstable right now. I'm hoping you guys can see and point me in the right direction of something that is outside the triangle... .

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, we already had plans to do just what you suggested Sunflower: My son would come and stay over, we'd do brunch/Christmas, BPDh's son would show up whenever he feels like it(eye roll), and BPDh told him we planned to go back to my hometown for our annual Christmas dinner at the Chinese buffet. He invited his son, and his son didn't want to do that because he's now judging that my entire family is Trump supporting(they aren't), and he says he doesn't want to be around that "negativity". He also wanted his Dad to do a big dinner like in days of old, when he was married to his ex(step son's Mom).

So this is going to basically going to be another holiday dictated by what his son wants, and BPDh will want to make his plans around that.

I've decided that MY plans are not going to be around that. I'm going to keep our tradition we started five years ago, and that may mean I end up going to my hometown,  doing the Chinese Buffet, with my kids alone, without BPDh. His choice to come, or let his son call the shots, is his. I made plans for me and my kids, but it is always BPDh letting his kids decide his life. The ONLY time he's defied them was by marrying me, and reconciling with me.

I feel pretty okay with this decision, but I know BPDh will likely have issue if I go off and leave him, and don't just accommodate his son's ever wish for that day.

Is my choice staying out of the triangle, or am I still falling into that role?

[formflier]

I feel at times, I try to do what's right, and have the attitude of "let the chips fall where they may", but I end up being very uncomfortable with their reactions to that. I think this is where I struggle, and get roped back in. I'll know I did what I thought was "right" or "kind", yet they'll still be upset, and then I feel I failed. I have to stop taking their reactions as a reflection of MY actions, maybe?    

     Huge insight here.  Feel good about what you do, .they are disordered people, why put any weight to their reactions (good or bad)?  Huge stuff here.      

FF  

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I think it's huge that I've had this realization, but I think I've had this realization for quite a while now, but I still get sucked in with BPDh and his kids. It's funny, because my kids also used this tactic on me, but just this past year, it's become way less effective for them. It's much easier for me to live my boundaries with them, because I don't feel any need for their approval, and I pretty much know we have a strong bond. I go visit my 17 year old son, he's disrespectful, I leave. He caught on to this, and once he even came out to the car as I was leaving to apologize, and ask me to stay. He apologized again later for taking out his anger over a school project out on me. My point is, my kids learn. BPDh and his kids don't seem too, and I think this puts me in a constant loop of trying to prove I'm not "bad" or all the other things they try to guilt me into feeling.

This last one, in regards to my political views, was just so over the top, and bizarre, that it really brought things to light for me. Our entire lunch was pretty much ruined that day by BPDh's son ranting about politics, and his candidate of choice. BPDh and I kept saying that we aren't very political, but I did also say that I liked some of Trump's ideas, but wouldn't be voting for him. How his son got that I'm a Trump supporter, is just bizarre-o.

I sort of knew this might be coming, due to a facebook post BPDh's son made immediately after our lunch. How he was cutting all people out of his life that support Trump. Pretty weird coming from this son that said he wanted to murder Trump? How can this family say such sociopathic things(it's not just his son), and BPDh just sit there and smile like that's normal?

You are right, they are disordered, and while I have empathy for them, I'm going to do my very best to stop being part of their drama triangle, and to stop getting sucked into the blame they lay on me, and the "do it my way or else" mentality they have.

My life is important too, and I can't spend all my time mollycoddling, or explaining or justifying MY beliefs and truths. I guess sometimes that will mean I spend time alone, or have someone mad, but that is their choice to make. They'll blame me, but I just need to not pick up the blame.

[Notwendy]

I disagree with the part of me expecting anything

I don't mean to argue with you, and I can't read your mind, but if you had no expectations, then you would not be hurt when they behave this way. I know that you are in a challenging situation. Yet this triangle is upsetting you repeatedly. I don't think they are going to change. If you want it to change, then the change will have to be on your part. Or you can continue as things are. It is your choice.

You expect to be able to have your own political ideas, you expect to have a good Christmas. If you didn't have these expectations, then their behavior would not bother you. You can have your own political ideas. What you can't have is for them to like them, or like you because of them, because they are going to think and feel what they want no matter what.

If you didn't have expectations, then you would not keep on participating in these dynamics and being hurt when your H chooses his kids over you. He does this countless times, over and over again, and it is hurtful to you. Of course it is hurtful and understandable. However, the pattern is this. Kid decides he/she doesn't want you to be at some family occasion. Dad sides with kid, you are hurt.

They are not going to change. This is working for them. So, what to do? Keep on doing what you are doing, and accept that this is the way they are, and you can feel hurt over it or not. Or do something different and see if you get different results.

I am not blaming you or even saying you are doing something wrong. You are a good person and you are doing everything you can to make things better in your family. Yet, they are who they are, and they are doing the same thing over and over.

Taking the path of turning the other cheek isn't a wrong path, but since you feel hurt, this path is not resulting in your happiness or contentedness. If you choose this path, then the predictable outcome is that they will keep on behaving as they are. There are other choices. Love can show itself in different ways. One of them is tough love. Actions have consequences. People learn that if they treat others poorly, those people may not want to be in their company. However, when your H mistreats you, and there are no consequences for him, he learns that he can do what he wants with you and you will accept it.

What value are you and the marriage to him? You are concerned about divorce threats, but why does he do this? I don't know if he means it but it works for him, because it scares you from standing up to him. He gets to scream "get out" but that doesn't matter, because he doesn't have any fear that you will.

Tough love is having consequences for people who treat you poorly. This does not mean you have to leave him. I know you are a stayer, and willing to take as much emotional pain as it takes to stay, but is this enabling him to dish it out? Tough love could be as Sweetheart says, not engaging in the argument at all. Telling your H how you feel is adding fuel to it because it is engaging in the conflict.

One option is not spending Christmas with him and his son. Who wants to spend Christmas with people who say they don't want you there? Even if he didn't mean it, his actions have consequences. If he tells you to get out, and that doesn't matter, what stops him from saying it?

[Ceruleanblue]

I truly do think you are right, that he says the "get out" comments to keep me in line. To keep me from standing up for myself at all. He's always trying to get me to back down on my boundaries. He likes to keep me scared, and feeling insecure about "us".

I realize you aren't trying to argue with me, but I just don't feel I have a lot of expectations, but I probably do have a few. Like I did expect and want to have a good Christmas. I think my hurt at their actions is normal, and no, I don't expect them to change. At least not without a lot of work, and BPDh is still in some major denial.

He just got done cussing at me, and clearly getting quite mad, when I responded to a question he had. I told him I'd like to start recording his reactions(kidding, of course), and he said he thinks I'd be shocked. Uhm, no, I wouldn't be. I hold myself really accountable, and if I say or do it, I'll own it. BPDh has these same issues at work, because he miscommunicates, or doesn't communicate at all.

He just got off the phone about seeing a movie with his son, you know, the movie he's originally planned to see with ME. I'd told him just yesterday, that I'd be pretty hurt if he takes his son out for a movie, right after his son threatens to cut me off. Of course BPDh DOES NOT CARE ABOUT MY FEELINGS. Simple as that. He's narcissistic, and only he and his kids matter. I'm almost like someone he wants around to fill his sexual needs, and stroke his low ego. I'm longsuffering, and I work hard on being healthy(although he liked me better when I wasn't).

I guess the answer is to expect NOTHING from him? Because that is about what I get. Every week, my therapist asks me why I stay with him. I always tell her the same things: because I meant my vows, and as a Christian, I believe in working things out. Also when he's "nice" things are okay. Plus, I don't think he wants to be this way(although lately I'm changing my mind on that)... .

[formflier]

  I'm going to turn the tables on you, You should have expectations  I would change that to say you should have values that demostrate your self worth.  And be willing toconsistently enforce boundaries to protect your self worth.  That doesn't mean fight with them.  The advice to kinda shrug your shoulders is spot on.  Let them do their thing, don't engage.  If they become abusive, shrug and go do you own thing.      

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

I totally get what you are saying. I don't in fact though, get my self worth, in any way, shape or form, from BPDh. If I did, I'd be a basket case, and think I'm not worth to draw air. He's so negative, and it's nearly impossible for him to see, or say good things to me, about me. He doesn't believe in building someone up, unless it's his kids. It's just the weirdest thing. He'll overinflate their egos, they can do not wrong, no matter how mean, and angry they clearly are, yet I'd bet him employees at work would kill for an "attaboy", "good job", and so would I.

I guess I'm having trouble seeing how having consistent boundaries will help with that? My big boundaries, I've managed to uphold since I came back, but his respect towards me hasn't changed.

I guess I view how I treat others, as a measure of MY self respect, if that makes sense? I've always viewed it that people who have to tear others down to feel better, must have huge self esteem issues, or be narcissistic.

I'm definitely going to adopt a more laissez faire attitude towards all this. I think perspective and outlook can make huge changes, so I'll work on that.

[formflier]

  Part of your self worth comes from how you allow yourself to be treated and how you treat others.  I get it, that you don't control the actions of others.  But when they misbehave toward you, take a break from them, but don't overreact  When they see that you value yourself enough to not be treated that way.  It should change things, some.      

FF

[MaybeSo]

I think you are on the right path.  Boundaries are for you, not anyone else.  And... .the less tied into their stuff... .the better you protect yourself.

Did you see the movie The Family Stone?  Because of the family dynamics ... .the lead male character's new girlfriend is kind of hassled and emotionally tortured by his siblings and his mom when she comes to meet them for the first time during christmas.  They are the hip, cool, politically correct family whom at the same time show very little capacity to tolerate her socially awkward but essentially harmless ways.  The youngest sister is particularly mean spirited, finding every opportunity to bait this new girlfriend and show contempt for her.   At one point the girlfriend is so rattled she states shrilly to his sister... ."You know, I don't care what you think of me."  And the sister smugly... .and correctly... .replies... ."oh yes you do".  She knows she's got her b/c she takes the bait and gets rattled every time they mess with her. The more upset and rattled the girlfriend gets, the  more she protests, gets emotional, JADES... .the more they mess with her. Now a lot of the movie doesn't apply to your situation... .but in part, it's a great example of what not to do when you have a family or anyone who is behaving badly for their own complex reasons, and you are on the receiving end of it.  The best role model in this movie?  The oldest son who is just calmly laid back about it all.  He keeps a sense of humor, he's mellow, he doesn't take anything anyone is doing too seriously or too personally, he doesn't get polarized onto any 'sides'.  He tends to speak from his heart, but takes care of himself and stays out of the fracas.  He encourages the gf who is clearly freaking out a lot... .to learn to relax, just relax... .and to quit trying so hard. 

When you feel insecure inside, you will never feel secure.  Your H can't make you feel secure.  You have to keep locating security inside yourself.  It doesn't come from others.

If they know that every time they threaten to cut you out or take issue with you... .that you will respond by getting rattled and getting really upset and it all starts a fight with your H and all this juicy drama follows b/c they know you will demand your H to fix it... .they are going to keep doing this for sure.

If you don't take the bait, and just look at it like... .big deal... .what's new? ... .and rely on your own sense of internal security... .rather than trying to get it from your H... .

They will eventually get bored with you.   

You need to do a better job of providing a more boring response to them and to your husband around this drama stuff.

Seriously. 

Bore them with non-reactive responses, be calm, be less tied up about it all... .hang onto yourself even if they are being crazy or over the top.



The son has every right to be a horses arse and disagree with or even misunderstand your political views.  He can be a big jerk if he wants to be.  This isn't really about Trump, either.  The content/context is ever changing, CB... .this is about drama... .if it isn't Trump it would be something else.  It's always something!  If you start getting worked up about this as though content is really super important and get into a fight for your rights and get all offended and shocked etc... .then you just took the bait!   This is how this family relates, it's their process.  The process is what they are after, the content is ever changing and just supports the process.  Their process is "drama".   Do you see that?  When we get hooked into the content we immediately become embroiled in their drama. 

You  only have control over how you handle yourself around difficult people, and how you take care of you.  That's what boundaries are about. 

Get off the triangle CB.  There is only suffering there.

There is certain kind of pain in getting off triangles, too, as you allude to... .but it's clean pain.   

[Notwendy]

Get off the triangle CB.  There is only suffering there.

There is certain kind of pain in getting off triangles, too, as you allude to... .but it's clean pain.   



That is what I am also saying- there is suffering on the triangle, but it is a familiar, predictable suffering and a pattern that is predictable. Everyone plays their role ( there are only 3) and the steps are known.

Getting off the triangle is unpredictable. When one person steps off, the relationships become unstable. People feel the discomfort of change. They try harder to get the other person back on to the steps. The person trying to step off is also uncomfortable as it is an unknown and also terrifying to face anger and other reactions. It is a one step forward at a time process, sometimes with back tracking.

Since personal change is a challenge and so is facing the resistance of others, it takes motivation. The suffering from being on the drama triangle can be a motivator. As long as a person can say " it isn't so bad", the motivation isn't likely to be there. Some people interact this way their entire lives- you can see how your H does this. This works for him, but that doesn't mean he isn't suffering in some way from his own dysfunction. Still, only he can decide to change or not. The person who does not want to interact on the drama triangle is the one who has to make changes in how they interact.

Getting off the triangle does not mean leaving the relationship, but it can be a risk- and so there is fear involved.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm going to say this as lovingly as I can, CB. And pardon me if it comes out more harshly than I intend. I tend to be a straight shooter and it's not a good quality in a lot of contexts, especially with a pwBPD, nor with someone who is involved with a pwBPD.

So here goes. I've been reading your threads for some time and I see a consistent pattern. You want everything to be OK and you think by being a good person, being loving and supportive, it will be. You keep doing the same thing and it bites you in the butt every time.

You say you have no expectations, yet you're constantly disappointed by the behavior of your H and his kids.

You put up with horrible behavior and don't provide consequences such as absenting yourself. You want your husband to side with you over his kids, yet time and time you've seen that he won't do that.

You've allowed yourself to be hurt in terrible ways, by letting your husband get rid of your son and possibly your cat. You've allowed yourself to be abused sexually and put into danger with the motorcycle, both situations which went far beyond your comfort zone.

Now you say you won't put up with that, but you are still putting up with lesser abuse.

I would imagine that your husband has lost some respect for you because you will bend over backwards for him. Also you are involving yourself in things that are his business alone.

Right now, you might be thinking that I'm being very intrusive, unkind and that I don't understand your situation. But I see so much of myself in your words--my life years ago with my ex husband. I just kept on thinking if I loved him enough, he'd see the error in his ways and he'd become that wonderful sweet person that I knew he could be. He was also NPD/BPD and probably APD too.

One word to think on: BOUNDARIES.

Unless you make some changes here, the same things will continue on. Just substitute topics, players, dramas. This is what you have to look forward to.

You've made some positive changes with your son by enforcing boundaries. It's going to be a lot more difficult to do the same with people with PDs and it looks like you've got a whole family of them. I would encourage you to spend time with people who love you and who have your back, like your parents.

I hope you get over your cold and have a lovely Christmas with your children and your parents.  

[Notwendy]

I think our aim on this board is to be supportive and respectful, but I also agree with the idea of "tough love" here too. This concept has been addressed in the co-dependency 12 step groups that I have attended. Naturally, members who attend are feeling emotional pain and need support, however, if we are only supportive, then we may not be helping that member to change. One aspect of the sponsor-member relationship is that the sponsor has been there, in the shoes of the member, and can see aspects of themselves that they changed, and so they can guide the member through that change, but only if they point them out, which may not be comfortable for the member. In a nutshell, they say it as it is. I recall being angry at times at my sponsor. Now, I am glad I had a sponsor that cared enough for me to say what she did.

One reason that this is so helpful, is that we can't see ourselves well. Co-dependents can not see themselves well, because a condition of co-dependency is an outward over-focus on others. A sponsor helps keep that focus on the member, and in a way, trains them to look at their own behaviors that are contributors to the dynamics in the relationship.

While this board isn't the same as a group or sponsor, it can function in a similar manner by giving advise on how to improve relationships, but the same rule about change is the same. Change starts with us. The behavior of the person with BPD isn't something we can control.

I think several members have made suggestions about the patterns in the drama triangle. Some of these, you don't agree with, and that is your choice. However, I know that you know that change begins with you, and that doing the same thing is not likely to bring different results with your H. I think a good place to start is with boundaries, not only yours but your H's and his kids. Their boundaries are their boundaries even if the dynamics between them are dysfunctional.

[MaybeSo]

Co-dependents can not see themselves well, because a condition of co-dependency is an outward over-focus on others.

Bingo.

As a recovering Codependent, I can fully support this statement.

[Fian]

Did I understand this correctly - they treat you like **** and expect you to cook a Christmas dinner for them?

[formflier]

Cb, What was the outcome of all this?  Just trying to get caught up on things.  Hope you had a good holiday.    

FF