Do we make it too easy on them?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Honestly, sometimes I just feel like they are major JERKS (to put it mildly)! I am beginning to feel like I am tired of there being excuses for their behavior... .Poor them, they just can't help but do all of these horrific things to us... .so sorry for them! Bah! Most people would say, what jerks (or worse words for it)! I just wanted to vent... .it makes me angry sometimes. Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes. Although they don't seem to keep people around forever- especially friends. Do you ever think we make it too easy for them to continue to act this way?

[Herodias]

Honestly, sometimes I just feel like they are major JERKS (to put it mildly)! I am beginning to feel like I am tired of there being excuses for their behavior... .Poor them, they just can't help but do all of these horrific things to us... .so sorry for them! Bah! Most people would say, what jerks (or worse words for it)! I just wanted to vent... .it makes me angry sometimes. Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes. Although they don't seem to keep people around forever- especially friends. Do you ever think we make it too easy for them to continue to act this way?

[steve195915]

Honestly, sometimes I just feel like they are major JERKS (to put it mildly)! I am beginning to feel like I am tired of there being excuses for their behavior... .Poor them, they just can't help but do all of these horrific things to us... .so sorry for them! Bah! Most people would say, what jerks (or worse words for it)! I just wanted to vent... .it makes me angry sometimes. Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes. Although they don't seem to keep people around forever- especially friends. Do you ever think we make it too easy for them to continue to act this way?

This is going to be an interesting thread.  Yes I think we are very easy on them.  I don't dare tell my friends or family some of the things they said or did.  I'm not sure if it's I'm trying to protect my ex or if I'm so embarrassed to tell anybody the truth of what I allowed myself to be put through.  Also I write off their abhorrent behavior as being part of their sickness.  It's like I don't hold them completely responsible for their actions as they aren't with a normal mind.  Society has always done that to extent, i.e. like being able to plea "innocent due to reason of insanity". 

Also, it's not our place to make things hard on them, they accomplish that all by themselves. They aren't happy, never will know true love, will always be emotionally unstable.  It's just sad they have to hurt so many decent people that cross their paths. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes.

That would probably trigger abandonment fears, which would make the behaviors worse and/or send a borderline off in search of new attachments.  The best way to 'deliver' the message would be to first be absolutely clear that no one is leaving, and then tell the whole truth, and name calling wouldn't help, it should be delivered calmly and completely without compromise or emotion.  One benefit of that is borderlines crave boundaries, like kids do, not something I was willing to do with my ex, but the folks on the Staying board are deep in it and better at it than I would ever be.

And it's helpful to separate the disorder from the behaviors.  Sure, having BPD sucks, but the behaviors are either acceptable to us or they aren't, and if they aren't and calm honesty doesn't result in any changes in that behavior, then we should leave, not hard to say here on the Leaving board.  And then, once we've removed ourselves from the unacceptable behaviors and reflected back on how many of them we tolerated for maybe too long, getting angry about that is totally healthy and a normal, required part of the detachment process.  So let fly with the pissed off, just don't make things worse, best to burn up the energy in the gym or beat the crap out of a pillow, but it will pass.

[lovenature]

I think when we are co-dependent and enable their behaviour we allow them to act and treat us the way they did. People who will not accept their behaviour don't give them the supply they need to survive, and the relationship is over in short order. Remember they put on a mask for the world to see, only when you are in an intimate relationship and get too close do you trigger them and see who they really are.

Anger can be helpful, but eventually to reach acceptance and indifference I believe we must accept that they have a serious mental illness, it doesn't excuse their behaviour, but part of the disorder is not accepting responsibility and blaming others; sadly this is why most will not get the help they need. :'(

[thisworld]

I think we make it too difficult on ourselves. They are them, what we see is what we get. What are we doing to ourselves? What is it that we can change in ourselves and just for ourselves without taking anybody into the equation?

[whitebackatcha]

I think we make it too difficult on ourselves. They are them, what we see is what we get. What are we doing to ourselves? What is it that we can change in ourselves and just for ourselves without taking anybody into the equation?

Good point. If we are miserable, why do we stay at all? We have to take responsibility for our choices as well. If we can't, what makes us think they ever could?

[Schermarhorn]

Honestly, sometimes I just feel like they are major JERKS (to put it mildly)! I am beginning to feel like I am tired of there being excuses for their behavior... .Poor them, they just can't help but do all of these horrific things to us... .so sorry for them! Bah! Most people would say, what jerks (or worse words for it)! I just wanted to vent... .it makes me angry sometimes. Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes. Although they don't seem to keep people around forever- especially friends. Do you ever think we make it too easy for them to continue to act this way?

I hold my ex responsible for the things she did to me. But I also hold myself responsible for not taking up for my self and getting out of the situation.

A mental illness does not engrave their future in stone. She didn't have to do those things. I also don't have to keep myself in any relationship like that again, so I won't.

[MakingMyWay]

This is a tough one for me, since I know that her NPD mother is to blame for her BPD and for triggering her. But another part of me knows that she is aware of these behaviours and how much she hurts people but still hasn't made an effort to get help makes me think that she doesn't want to or know how to change. She just uses her mother as a scapegoat while not doing anything to get away from her. I feel nothing but pity for her, since she is going to leave a trail of awfully good people in her wake if she doesn't get away from her mum and make a serious effort to fix herself.  I feel that I have come far enough, that if she did come back to me I could confidently sit her down and basically tell her what I think she needs to do. If she didn't listen I would just walk away.

[thisworld]

If we can't, what makes us think they ever could?

This.

[AG]

I have had these thought run through my mind plenty. In a world where every single thing they do can be labeled and excused as a medical condition it's kind of hard not to get annoyed.

Lying= "Oh they just have such low sense of self that they cannot bear to have people think of them in a negative way so they lie"

Cheating= "Oh they just have a hard time controlling they're primitive impulses"

Abuse="Oh they just have trouble regulating emotions so they project them onto they're loved ones"

ECT, Ect, ect , and so on and so on the list compiles pretty long for attributes that if anyone else without a disorder were to engage in would be immediately written off as horrible people.

At the end of the day we will not ever truly know for a fact if they are evil or not. The only thing we do know for a fact is that we do not like someone around us behaving in such a manner or treating us poorly. We do know for a  fact that what they do goes way against our moral code or compass. I still care about my BPD ex very much but I also know damn well that I will not put up with that type of treatment. At that point it kind of doesn't matter whether she is truly evil or not. It only matters that I do not want to be treated like that and this person treats everyone like that.


In my ex's case she is now unemployed, she has lost her very last friend who has backed away from her, She was living with her father but got kicked out and now is with her mom, prior to that she had gotten kicked out her moms house to live with her father. Even when loosing her last and only friend she still blamed it on her. I saw a pic on facebook the other week with every single person in her crew of female friend hanging with every person included except for her. She has damaged every single relationship whether romantic or friendly or even down to family.

She now has nothing at all except for the air she breathes. You do not have to do anything to them dude they literally F*** themselves over on a constant basis. It really is sad to say the least. It really is heartbreaking and although I do still feel anger on some levels. I realize that they live such a low level of existence and try to balance the anger away with those thoughts. I've had my friends since 1st grade and there are quite a few of us. I do not want to keep being angry and have it spill over into my friendships causing the same damage that BPD people do everywhere they go. So I try to not be angry for long periods of time.

[Mutt]

Do you ever think we make it too easy for them to continue to act this way?

I understand the frustrations.

If I made things harder for my ex I was persecutor. If I hold the position of persecutor for too long a pwBPD emotionally collapse.

I can't control how someone else acts or behaves but I can change my responses. Someone else mentioned boundaries. I would like to add that we can stop reacting to our exes' behaviors.

What are your suggestions Herodias?

[AsGoodAsItGets]

My ex physically hurt herself.  Easy on them?  Hmm. I guess I do tend to make things easy on those I love,  I know I saved her life, yes she is a jerk, but I really believe she doesnt want to be. 

[Herodias]

I don't have any suggestions... .I'm in an angry place right now because I broke no contact and he's manipulated me all over again. He's acting like he's so much better now. He's made threats against me and now I think he is just a jerk. I wish I left a long time ago and never accepted any if this behavior in the first place! I won't feel sorry for anyone again, that's for sure.

[Isa_lala]

I really think that we accept what is not acceptable. That's why their relationship with us lasts longer than with someone who wouldn't accept it.

I was shamed of myself to have accepted some unacceptable behaviors. When I started to seriously suspect BPD I started to find him a lot of excuses... .and have continued to tolerate those behaviors because I was convinced that he would start a therapy and things would be better.

Now, I think that I have lied to myself, things will never get better so I consider leaving him.

Ok it is a sickness and they are themselves very unhappy and we won't change them. the only thing we can change is ourselves, our reactions. I can leave him if I want, so, until I do that, I don't feel sad about myself knowing that it is my part of responsibility in this storm. And I learned a lot about myself, discovered that I am codependent, I strongly want to please people, afraid of disappointing  and this RS will have helped me to be a healthier person. Just for that, I was not wasting my time with my BF.

at one point, we just need to be realistic and stop to be utopian... .

[AwakenedOne]

Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes.

That would probably trigger abandonment fears, which would make the behaviors worse and/or send a borderline off in search of new attachments.  The best way to 'deliver' the message would be to first be absolutely clear that no one is leaving, and then tell the whole truth, and name calling wouldn't help, it should be delivered calmly and completely without compromise or emotion.  One benefit of that is borderlines crave boundaries, like kids do, not something I was willing to do with my ex, but the folks on the Staying board are deep in it and better at it than I would ever be.

And it's helpful to separate the disorder from the behaviors.  Sure, having BPD sucks, but the behaviors are either acceptable to us or they aren't, and if they aren't and calm honesty doesn't result in any changes in that behavior, then we should leave, not hard to say here on the Leaving board.  And then, once we've removed ourselves from the unacceptable behaviors and reflected back on how many of them we tolerated for maybe too long, getting angry about that is totally healthy and a normal, required part of the detachment process.  So let fly with the pissed off, just don't make things worse, best to burn up the energy in the gym or beat the crap out of a pillow, but it will pass.

I'm not sure that we can ever really convince the pwBPD that no one is leaving. When you waste... .um, I mean spend time trying to convince them of this while showing love at best it will be only temporarily believed.

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm not sure that we can ever really convince the pwBPD that no one is leaving. When you waste... .um, I mean spend time trying to convince them of this while showing love at best it will be only temporarily believed.

Yes, all we can do, with anyone borderline or not, is express ourselves from our heart truthfully and congruently, and they're gonna believe what they're gonna believe.

[enlighten me]

Honestly, sometimes I just feel like they are major JERKS (to put it mildly)! I am beginning to feel like I am tired of there being excuses for their behavior... .Poor them, they just can't help but do all of these horrific things to us... .so sorry for them! Bah! Most people would say, what jerks (or worse words for it)! I just wanted to vent... .it makes me angry sometimes. Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes. Although they don't seem to keep people around forever- especially friends. Do you ever think we make it too easy for them to continue to act this way?

I don't think treating them like jerks would have a positive affect on them. I was thinking a while back how my ex wife complained about how bad her childhood was and how her mother always picked on her. I believe that the more likely scenario was that she was being punished for her bad behaviour and there was no victimising going on. If this is the case then she spent most of her youth being pulled up over her behaviour and it did nothing to change her. My exgf I believe used to get shut in a cupboard when she misbehaved. She has hinted at being mistreated but again I think it was more of her being punished for her behaviour and the punishment got more severe when it wasn't working. Both my exs have had people who stood up and pulled them up on their behaviour but these people are all painted black and made out to be the bad guys.

[steve195915]

I'm not sure that we can ever really convince the pwBPD that no one is leaving. When you waste... .um, I mean spend time trying to convince them of this while showing love at best it will be only temporarily believed.

You are right on!  The main basis of their disorder is that they were abused or neglected as a child and they learned to associate love with ultimate pain and future abandonment.  If we could somehow convince them that your love means that you will always be there for them, that you won't hurt them and that they could trust you completely, then they would be cured. 

[thisworld]

If we showed complete acceptance would they not lose their respect for us and stop desiring us or start treating us like a parent? There are many long term relationships where the codependent partner shows complete acceptance and the relationship lasts for years but the BPD comes and goes. Aren't their needs (whatever they are at that moment) internally generated? How can we convince something that is internally generated and changes? And how can we convince people whose cognition is distorted? My ex partner though I was cold and loveless because I didn't try to avenge him by cheating and going crazy like his previous partners. It was a bit like damned if you, damned if you don't.  I think an untreated BPD is not at a state where they are capable of being convinced. They need to do work on themselves to be able to come to that state or understanding.

[Teereese]

Honestly, sometimes I just feel like they are major JERKS (to put it mildly)! I am beginning to feel like I am tired of there being excuses for their behavior... .Poor them, they just can't help but do all of these horrific things to us... .so sorry for them! Bah! Most people would say, what jerks (or worse words for it)! I just wanted to vent... .it makes me angry sometimes. Maybe if we treated them like the jerks they are they would eventually realize they need to make some changes. Although they don't seem to keep people around forever- especially friends. Do you ever think we make it too easy for them to continue to act this way?

This is going to be an interesting thread.  Yes I think we are very easy on them.  I don't dare tell my friends or family some of the things they said or did.  I'm not sure if it's I'm trying to protect my ex or if I'm so embarrassed to tell anybody the truth of what I allowed myself to be put through.  Also I write off their abhorrent behavior as being part of their sickness.  It's like I don't hold them completely responsible for their actions as they aren't with a normal mind.  Society has always done that to extent, i.e. like being able to plea "innocent due to reason of insanity". 

Also, it's not our place to make things hard on them, they accomplish that all by themselves. They aren't happy, never will know true love, will always be emotionally unstable.  It's just sad they have to hurt so many decent people that cross their paths. 

Oh my ... .this is so me ... .100%

[ProKonig]

I certainly feel there are many people on this forum that take the 'softly softly, woe is them' approach. At the same time, we don't scream at babies when they cry. Yes, these are adults, sometimes very high functioning, but when their behaviour becomes dysfunctional, they are essentially children with no way of expressing their fears and pain like a adjusted person would. I genuinely believe it isn't their fault... .and medical evidence would suggest that too. The rational part of them knows they need help for their behaviour.

I've snapped on more than one occasion, but it never helps. Clear boundaries and an ability to walk away, while also making it clear you aren't leaving are essential. You need the patience of a saint and the mental fortitude of a special forces operative are required at times it feels.  

[thisworld]

It's like I don't hold them completely responsible for their actions as they aren't with a normal mind.  Society has always done that to extent, i.e. like being able to plea "innocent due to reason of insanity".  

This is a very useful metaphor  for me. I should remember that yes, the society does not punish them in conventional ways but neither does it put its emotional health into their hands.

[once removed]

understanding is not excusing or condoning.

after we broke up, my ex stole from me. i despise thieves. of course she could have kept from doing that, although she does have limited executive functioning and poor impulse control, which helps me to understand why she did it.

we dont need to stigmatize mental illness or mentally ill people by treating people like jerks. we need to understand and be more aware, and we need to learn good, strong boundaries. that includes but is not limited to understanding that its okay to be hurt or angry at someone we feel has wronged us.

[fromheeltoheal]

You are right on!  The main basis of their disorder is that they were abused or neglected as a child and they learned to associate love with ultimate pain and future abandonment.  If we could somehow convince them that your love means that you will always be there for them, that you won't hurt them and that they could trust you completely, then they would be cured.  

To clarify, the core of borderline personality disorder is the failure of a borderline to successfully detach from their mother and become and autonomous individual with a 'self' of their own.  The failure to detach and weather the abandonment depression that follows could have a variety of causes and include temperament, early experiences and the environment, and at some point orderly development became disordered, before cognitive thought was possible, so the disorder gets hardwired into the personality, affecting everything downstream.  That can't be cured, but a borderline can learn to deal with the emotional states they enter as a result.  It's helpful to make a distinction between something like PTSD, which is learned and can therefore be unlearned, and BPD, which is hardwired in before 'learning' was possible.  

[Herodias]

I can see where their anger and immaturity may not be "helped"... .but they do know right from wrong. Not all of them lie, cheat, steal and are addicts. Mine did not learn any behavior from his home. In fact, quite the opposite. I think he takes his clues from movies and people he surrounds himself with. Unfortunately, not the ones who care the most. Seems like he mistrusts them more than anyone. That's not how it should be. Family should be the ones who he can trust... .I see this may be a trust issue from childhood though. But I still say, he called himself an evil devil... .he knows what he is doing is bad.

[thisworld]

I think he takes his clues from movies and people he surrounds himself with.

This is so spot on! Though I shouldn't judge mine for this anymore as I have started to think of him as some version of Norman Bates   If only he were not so vengeful, ah. I actually feel so bad for him because he seems trapped between his disorders and hard-core addiction which imprison him in a web. but then, when I'm near him, I get exposed to physical and sexual violence. Anger, sadness, so many things going together. 

[ProKonig]

My ex partner though I was cold and loveless because I didn't try to avenge him by cheating and going crazy like his previous partners. It was a bit like damned if you, damned if you don't.

Omg! I had something similar to this. It was:

A: I had an abortion.

B: Seriously?

A: Yes.

B: If that's true then are you okay?

A: Yes. But, I was joking though.

B: Why would you joke about that? That's really disturbing.

A: Why weren't you jealous that I got pregnant with my ex?

B: What? Because I'm more concerned with your health and how I can help!

A: You're strange.

I'm B... .obviously. Ugh.