Very Angry D10

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

     It's been a while since I've posted anything, but here goes.

     I've been divorced from uBPDxW for just over a year now.  I have primary custody of D10, ex has visitation Wednesday nights and every other weekend.

     Over the course of the last year my daughter has become increasingly angry and depressed.  There have been many episodes of raging (stomping, yelling, destroying things).  Every day she yells at me and is extremely rude.  She refuses to talk to me about anything.  These episodes are much more pronounced when she returns from visiting her mom.

     I have been bringing her to a counselor, but there have been quite a few setbacks in scheduling and it's been a frustrating struggle.

     Has anyone else dealt with this?  How did you handle it? 

     I do my best to be consistent with rules/boundaries for her behavior, but it's gotten to the point where I have to take her bedroom door off the hinges to prevent her from slamming it over and over for a half an hour every night.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[rubyhammer]

     It's been a while since I've posted anything, but here goes.

     I've been divorced from uBPDxW for just over a year now.  I have primary custody of D10, ex has visitation Wednesday nights and every other weekend.

     Over the course of the last year my daughter has become increasingly angry and depressed.  There have been many episodes of raging (stomping, yelling, destroying things).  Every day she yells at me and is extremely rude.  She refuses to talk to me about anything.  These episodes are much more pronounced when she returns from visiting her mom.

     I have been bringing her to a counselor, but there have been quite a few setbacks in scheduling and it's been a frustrating struggle.

     Has anyone else dealt with this?  How did you handle it? 

     I do my best to be consistent with rules/boundaries for her behavior, but it's gotten to the point where I have to take her bedroom door off the hinges to prevent her from slamming it over and over for a half an hour every night.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Turkish]

That's pretty severe behavior.  It's so hard when your daughter won't communicate with you... .

Your past posts seem to indicate an unhealthy enmeshment with her mom. Do you think her mom is still sleeping in the same bed? You may be doing well enforcing boundaries, but  her mom doesn't sound like she has (in other words, being a parent).

Have you been trying the communication skills her with your daughter (Validation, etc... .)?

[rubyhammer]

I have been validating her feelings, saying things such as "I can see that you're very angry," and also stressing that it's ok to have angry feelings or sad feelings or any other feeling, but it's not ok to express those feelings by destroying things and yelling.  Usually this results in more yelling and stomping. 

     uBPDx hasn't had more than a handful of overnights since about October, because she was staying at the homeless shelter (roommate kicked her out) and now she's apparently living in a spare room at the massage/reiki/healing center where she rents a room to do reiki (her only source of income).  So the co-sleeping has probably ended for the most part, but the alienation has certainly been ramped up.  D10 regularly says she hates me, that I'm mean, that I control her whole life, etc.  I ask her what I do that seems mean or controlling, but, of course, she doesn't have an answer and only responds with some other form of lashing out at me.

[Thunderstruck]

Yes! We do see this! My SD is 10 as well (almost 11). We've had these meltdowns for quite awhile. It happened very frequently when she was ~8 and there was a lot of push-pull happening with her uBPDbm trying to alienate my DH.

Last year after we received the temp order of 50/50, everything went so well and SD10 was great.

Then this school year she has been acting out again. They mostly seem to be triggered by homework. She gets frustrated and just lets it all go. Yells at us, as many mean things as she can, cries, throws things, stomps, and slams doors. Sigh.

I think it's SD10s       that she has picked up from uBPDbm's behavior. I also think it's her unhealthy way of coping with stress (there is a lot going on in our lives right now). And I think somewhere along the way she has learned that if she exhibits this behavior then she gets what she wants (either at uBPDbm's house or at school, definitely not at our house! It doesn't fly with us!).

Does your D seem to be triggered by something? What has the T suggested?

[rubyhammer]

Thunderstruck, there doesn't seem to be any single trigger.  If we're in the car and I sigh, sneeze, sniffle, clear my throat, cough or gaze accidentally in the wrong direction, she thrashes her head back against the seat very violently and screams as loud as she can.  Sometimes I do nothing at all and she says, "What?" in that super-sassy tone that only little girls seem to possess.

    At home she's just insolent from the moment she wakes up, and from the moment she gets off the school bus.  Some things set her off (being told "no", asking her to clean up or brush her teeth).  She's like a simmering volcano, just waiting to explode.

     Therapy so far has been spotty.  The last counselor was sick a few times, so those appts never happened.  Now she's moved to a new facility and can't tell us where she's moved to (due to privacy laws).  So I made new appts with a different counselor, but the wait time is a couple months.  Currently I have appts starting the second week of January.

I agree that it's partially fleas and partially just an ineffective and destructive way for her to deal with her emotions.

[Thunderstruck]

Can she talk to the school counselor? Or a family member?

Is she acting like this at school (or daycare or with other people watching her)? Or is she just taking it out on you?

I read somewhere once that kids in these situations take it out on the healthy parent because they can't confront the unhealthy one. 

I really feel like my SD has a lot of anger too. She said when she gets "yelled at" (aka told what she should be doing) it makes her angry. I think it's shame that she can't process. We had her briefly in a class about parents who were separating, and she said the class really helped her because she was allowed to talk about her feelings without getting "yelled at" for them.

[rubyhammer]

It's almost 100% directed at me.  She does fine in school, no problems or acting out there.  Many times she'll be yelling and stomping, a neighbor friend knocks on the door, and she answers the door like there's nothing going on.  She just flips it off like a switch if another person shows up.  I've also read/heard that the kids will take it out on the healthy parent.

I'm going to have D10 sit down with my ex's sister (whom D10 has a good relationship with) and try to talk about it. 

D10 also seems to feel "yelled at" even when there's no yelling.  Sometimes I can sense that she feels it even when I'm just standing in the same room with her.  She'll get very tense, then turn to me and yell, "What? Leave me alone!" as if she's anticipating me getting on her case.  I recognize that feeling - it's how I feel whenever I'm around my uBPDxw! 

Can you elaborate on why you think it's shame that your SD can't process?  I'm curious to know.

[Ulysses]

And I think somewhere along the way she has learned that if she exhibits this behavior then she gets what she wants (either at uBPDbm's house or at school, definitely not at our house! It doesn't fly with us!).

Thunderstruck - can you share what you do or don't do to communicate/show that it doesn't work at your house?  I am out of strategies with S12 when it's time to do homework and he looks me straight in the eye and says, "no."  He also sometimes tells me he's done/will do his homework, but he doesn't.  I take his electronics away until he's worked on his homework, but I don't know what else to do.  The last time he cried and screamed at me about homework, I calmly told him, that he can cry and scream, but he still needs to complete the assignment.  He later told his T it wasn't right that he was so upset and I was calm.  

D10 also seems to feel "yelled at" even when there's no yelling.

My S12 is the same way.  If I don't sugarcoat, bow and scrape, he says I'm yelling at him.

I just read an article today about the different effects of divorce on children vs. adolescents.  It mentioned adolescents search for more independence and autonomy than they might have without divorced parents.  

I am going to continue to work with my T on not letting S12 manipulate me.  

[mother in law]

I have a 12 year old gd who was acting out also especially in the 1st few years after the divorce.  The behavior was very much as you describe and very much like her mother.  She also was and still is dealing with alot of parental and gp alienation from her mother.  Into the bargain she looks like her mother so when she was being obnoxious it was like having her mother in the room in a rage.  NO ONE was happy! !

It had taken about 4 years but I think for the most part we are winning. There are lapses now and again but gd is much better able to monitor her moods and tantrums than she was before. Her father also validates. He explains what is acceptable and what isn't.  He removes privileges and she was on a star/reward chart . So if she had a whole weekend with him and was great her pocket money increased and she got to choose to do something that was fun ie go to the beach.  If it was bad she was given time out to think about her actions and a discussion was had (she hates deep and meaningful discussions! !). She also lost her pocket money and privileges.

We have all been consistent also. A few weeks ago she didn't want to go to a certain ethnic restaurant (brain washed by her mother this race is dirty). Her step mother was about to give in.  I said no we are going.  We kept up cheerful chatter while she glowered, told us we were bullies. We said we know she didn't want to go but that night was my choice. Sometimes she courses sometimes we do.  She was allowed her choice of dish and begrudgingly admitted the food was ok at the end.  

Sometimes the tantrums are inversely proportional to what is going on at her mother's house. I guess we just have to deal with that get them to talk to someone they trust and support them.  My gds life at her mother's is often crap and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Does any of this help?

 

[Thunderstruck]

@rubyhammer - D10 probably acts out with you because she grew up watching BPDmom do the same. My guess is she is frustrated with something (probably the divorce and not getting to see her mom as much) and it's causing her to act out at you. How is her relationship with her mom?

This is a weird age for girls. They are still kids but starting to like the more adult things. Their bodies are starting to change and cause crazy hormones. They no longer see their BPDmoms as perfect creatures and instead see all the flaws... .and it's just disappointing.

Can you elaborate on why you think it's shame that your SD can't process?  I'm curious to know.

When SD10 acts out in school, we have a long discussion about behavior. Why there are rules, what happens if you break them, what happens if everyone breaks them, and the purpose of being in school in the first place. I had SD10 fill out a behavior sheet last time (This is what happened, this is how I felt, this is how I reacted, this is how I should handle it in the future). When SD10 is calm she is actually pretty insightful. She said that when her teacher yelled at her, she got an angry feeling in her belly (which I'm thinking is shame). But instead of it causing her to behave, it caused her to act out.

@Ulysses, it sounds to me like you're doing it right! We just don't give in to the tantrums. It's extremely difficult and frustrating for all of us, but we push through the yelling and screaming to get homework finished. Sometimes when we hit a road block we start throwing away pieces of candy. SD10 hates that, and screams like we're cutting off a finger, but it usually pushes her to start taking the assignment seriously. When she is calmer we have lots of LONG discussions about behavior.

I like @mother in law's suggestion about the rewards system. We've been talking about implementing that at our house for quite some time. The tough part is that we have SD10 for two days, she's at her BPDmom's for two days, and then we alternate weekends. So anything that we do gets undone immediately.

[david]

I've had similar problems with homework with our youngest. He is 12 now. Ex ran away in 2007 and it was not pleasant. I had many false allegations and serious alienation used against me and our boys.

I stayed focused on the fact that I believed education is extremely important and would say that to him a lot. He knew my position from the many times I would talk to him. One thing that helped was I would time him from start to the finish of his homework. I would then point out how much time he spent fighting/complaining/etc and how much time he actually spent on homework. It all of second grade and most of third until it clicked.

Giving him a heads up as to when he had to start his homework helped too.

A big problem I had was that his mom rarely interacted with him and even more rare that she would have him do his school work when with her. I eventually had him complete all homework he didn't do at his moms' when he was with me.

His mom still has no interest in his school work but he does do most of his assignments when with her because it is easier than doing a whole bunch of work when with me.

Back in 2008 he used to say I was evil and always punished him. I stopped at a Wawa one summer day to get a coffee. Both boys stayed in the car. I purchased an Icee for them. I walked to the car and neither looked up because they were playing on their Ipads. I opened the car door and in a very serious/mean sounding voice I said, " You boys better drink your Icees and like it. If you don't then you will see what real punishment is like." They were both very startled and it took a few seconds for it to sink in their heads. Both smiled. To this day when we are driving somewhere and they see a Wawa they ask if I can punish them.

Agreeing with something they say that is not true and taking it to the natural consequences has helped our two boys see things in a different light.

The counter intuitive things gives them pause and, I believe, help them see through the bs from their mom.

[Ulysses]

I would time him from start to the finish of his homework. I would then point out how much time he spent fighting/complaining/etc and how much time he actually spent on homework

Yes!  That is a great idea!  I did that quite a few years ago with music (practicing his instrument).  I am going to try this. 

Agreeing with something they say that is not true and taking it to the natural consequences has helped our two boys see things in a different light.

I am going to try this.  S12 is a very good debater so we'll see how it goes. 

Education is very important to me, as well, so it is very difficult to watch my S12 not engage in all of his subjects.  His math teacher has said he is "checked out" in math class. 

Thanks for posting this information.  It is helpful and gives me hope.

[mother in law]

To my knowledge gd has never acted out at school.  School is her safe haven.  My thoughts are that she does it more when life is difficult with her mother.  It must be hard as a child to articulate that the person they love does not behave like other parents.  Actions at that age are often easier than words.

I like the idea of getting a child to reflect and write.  I have to say that the pocket money revolves around being helpful and not just behavior.  Money sounds crass but gd really gets money and saving it.  She also loves the special things she gets to do if her behavior is good. They are usually cheap things like go to the beach.

Everything is prefaced with we love her but we and others do not want to be treated badly. I agree with the idea that they copy the BPD parent. Gd did this down to pushing me one day!

We also had a homework problem this year when gd started high school.  There was yelling tears sulking for her poor father. She eventually settled but no one gave into the tantrums.

And Thunder struck gd is only with her dad 2 days but the reward system works.  They learn who has the boundaries and how to abide by them at the appropriate place.  

It's been a long 4 years but she knows as long as she does the right thing we are there for her.

[ForeverDad]

Regarding D10 repeatedly slamming the door, probably you need to have this documented, either recorded or admitted to and logged in the T's notes.  Why?  She's approaching an age where privacy becomes important.  Your Ex could potentially take it to court and make an allegation against you or your parenting methods.  Removing a door may be a direct solution but there's potential for it to be used against you.  And she may just do something else, kicking walls, slamming drawers, etc.

[Thunderstruck]

Regarding D10 repeatedly slamming the door, probably you need to have this documented, either recorded or admitted to and logged in the T's notes.  Why?  She's approaching an age where privacy becomes important.  Your Ex could potentially take it to court and make an allegation against you or your parenting methods.  Removing a door may be a direct solution but there's potential for it to be used against you.  And she may just do something else, kicking walls, slamming drawers, etc.

He could remove the door and put up a curtain? It maintains the privacy, but it's very hard to slam a curtain.