Would you have agreed to be with them if you knew about BPD?

[thisworld]

"Having a successful relationship with someone who is suffering from a disorder requires a highly developed emotional  intelligence, finely tuned communication skills and rock solid boundaries."

{sorry, I copied this because it was such a good sentence and am not quoting, as I should}

Add to the above formula an awareness of one's own pathologies (or mechanisms, etc) and THEN you have a chance, maybe.  

I personally don't believe that these would create the intimacy I wish to find in a relationship. My partner was incapable of that and that wasn't caused by anything I did or did not do really. Sure I did contribute to the situation; I existed in that dynamic, too. However, his inner mechanisms that prevented healthy intimacy were established long before me and are not fully dependent on what we are describing above. I don't call any relationship without a good level of empathy from both partners and intimacy successful. Also, with whom? Other than what I saw in the mirroring stage, I don't know this guy. He doesn't either. He is like a chameleon. It's my fantasy that the one I know is the real one. Actually, all females around him are probably thinking like that. Who would I be trying for really? I think it's also a fantasy of ours to think that people will discover or cultivate their real selves and personalities through years of therapy and will certainly want to stay with us (or us with them). Maybe he will be healthier but a completely different person and we will have nothing that appeals to each other.

[thisworld]

Little technical problem. The last paragraph above is my comment, I just couldn't separate it from the rest.

[troisette]

Yes, agree thisworld.

To commit to a relationship knowing that the other has BPD is committing yourself to a life where their emotional needs remain paramount.

Even if they are committed to therapy, and if the therapy is successful, there is always a possibility that under stress they will regress. And if the therapy is successful you may not find them as attractive, due to your original reasons for becoming enmeshed. And if that doesn't happen, if the  therapy is successful, you may find them moving on to someone else.

Which to me, means a life of walking on eggshells... .

[thisworld]

Exactly, Troisette. And then I will probably have to go back to healing, this time dealing with difficult feelings about what I then see as a life, a decade wasted on someone's issues. While I'm healing, AGAIN, he will probably be dating people 20 years younger than him, a route that will probably and mostly be closed to me due to gender disadvantages (maybe it's different in the US, I don't know). In my experience, men are able to start from scratch more easily in these things. I know that I'll regret what has happened. Also, healing is good but I don't want to be only healing all the time, I want to live my life a little bit:)) I believe I won't be utterly unhealthy with a relatively healthy person. I don't only consist of healing:)) And all this, if I don't get a chronic illness or something really. We think our bodies are invulnerable. What if I become a chronic pain patient because of stress? Not improbable in my case. I believe boundaries do not only consist of emotional things. My body, my health is my biggest boundary. I should remember that. (I have a bad but very informative experience about this actually, I shouldn't forget that.) I look at our photographs with the guy. I look so worn out. People tell me my skin is better, my expression is calmer already. My eye bags are smaller, I look healthier. I am healthier. I think this is important (especially the photograph bit  I'll practice my right to protect myself from future trauma.

And good luck tomorrow 

[troisette]

Thanks thisworld. I'm stressed about tonight and yes, my back is very painful  since I met Chief Narcissistic Supply. Stress = Tension = Pain = Possibly something worse. So you are wise to keep clear. Same with me about the photos - he's a photographer but every pic of me shows a tight jaw and worried eyes. Even when I'm smiling.

Roll on 2016, quiet retreat and relax! 

[UVA2002]

No. No. No. She actually informed me of BPD in the beginning but gave very limited info. She size she was dealing with issues and so on and the BPD. I don't judge so I thought ok no biggie she working on it so it'll be fine. I wished I would have researched more I would have seen her intentions better.

[Thread]

Vitaminc - perfectly stated bravo!

Instead of staying intrigued and hanging around an enigma and letting myself get further and further sucked in to eventual circular and crazy discussions, IF I had known about the disorder, I would have known to throw up my hands and say "nope, this one needs a professional and I am not one, so I'm done".

[steve195915]

No. No. No. She actually informed me of BPD in the beginning but gave very limited info. She size she was dealing with issues and so on and the BPD. I don't judge so I thought ok no biggie she working on it so it'll be fine. I wished I would have researched more I would have seen her intentions better.

Really your answer was YES YES YES since you knew she had BPD and you still chose to be with her.  I don't think anyone of us can comprehend the capabilities of a pwBPD without having to live through a relationship with one.  Even if I researched BPD when I met my ex, I still would have gotten into a relationship with her because I don't think I could have understood or acknowledged what she was capable of.  Plus she seemed so perfect when I met her, she said all the right things.  There's no way I would have believed she could do all the horrible actions she ultimately did.

Plus all pwBPD do not have the same intensity of the illness and don't exhibit all the same traits.  Some cheat, some don't, some cut, some don't, some have extreme anger bouts with physical violence, some don't... .   We may be smarter now and run if we meet another with BPD but I bet a lot of us would still start a relationship if we were really attracted to the person and just tell ourselves that we will be more cautious and not fall so quickly, especially if they said they are going to therapy to fix themselves.

[Lonely_Astro]

No. No. No. She actually informed me of BPD in the beginning but gave very limited info. She size she was dealing with issues and so on and the BPD. I don't judge so I thought ok no biggie she working on it so it'll be fine. I wished I would have researched more I would have seen her intentions better.

Really your answer was YES YES YES since you knew she had BPD and you still chose to be with her.  I don't think anyone of us can comprehend the capabilities of a pwBPD without having to live through a relationship with one.  Even if I researched BPD when I met my ex, I still would have gotten into a relationship with her because I don't think I could have understood or acknowledged what she was capable of.  Plus she seemed so perfect when I met her, she said all the right things.  There's no way I would have believed she could do all the horrible actions she ultimately did.

Plus all pwBPD do not have the same intensity of the illness and don't exhibit all the same traits.  Some cheat, some don't, some cut, some don't, some have extreme anger bouts with physical violence, some don't... .   We may be smarter now and run if we meet another with BPD but I bet a lot of us would still start a relationship if we were really attracted to the person and just tell ourselves that we will be more cautious and not fall so quickly, especially if they said they are going to therapy to fix themselves.

This is exactly what I did.  I didn't hate J (and still don't).  I told myself that I would be more cautious and at the first sight of "oddities", I would leave.  I didn't.  I kept going under an illusion.  She was lying to me at the beginning, claims she fully committed to me, but at the same time she wasn't.  We had lengthy, in depth talks about our past and my hesitations of a r/s with her.  She assured me she was managed (through meds and therapy).  I bought into that.  That may have been true at the very start, but it didn't stay true long. 

I've had several blunt conversations with J over the past several days.  She is 100% convinced that I am leaving her (and this r/s).  She admits to me that she knows her actions are the cause and yet I see moments of "oh well" on her face.  She said to me that she knew I'd never trust her and she was also afraid of herself (and what she would do to me) if we tried to make it work.  I, reluctantly, have to agree with her on that level.  I also have to keep in mind that the J I am seeing right now may or may not be the J I "know".  What do I mean?  I mean that she may be so candid with me and so open as a ploy to get me to stick around all the while she has other irons in the fire.  It's a shame I'm thinking like that, isn't it?  I mean, what if I'm wrong?  What if we could make it work (and be somewhat successful)?  Then again, what if it's an intentional or unintentional ruse?

That's the problem, isn't it, the unknown?

[Fr4nz]

Just out of curiosity. Imagine you met your partner and they were as attractive and charming as they were during the mirroring stage. But you knew that they had BPD and somehow had read everything you see here on bPD family. You also knew that this person was not in therapy. Would you start a relationship with them despite the charm?   

Well, a relationship no, but I'd stay with them for having fun and spend good times... .oh, and always treating them with respect

[bAlex]

Yes. I just would have handled things differently. I didn't understand any of it at the time and I know I could have made better choices regarding how I reacted to things... I believe it would have made all the difference. Life would have been easier just by knowing.

[Lonely_Astro]

Yes. I just would have handled things differently. I didn't understand any of it at the time and I know I could have made better choices regarding how I reacted to things... I believe it would have made all the difference. Life would have been easier just by knowing.

I knew, going in the second time.  J is diagnosed, on meds, and is 3 months into DBT. 

It didn't make a difference.  She still lied, cheated (at least on an emotional level, physical is debatable), manipulated, triangulated, and emotionally abused me for most of our 1 year r/s.

Life wasn't easier by knowing.  Granted she and I had a history to start with, so perhaps that's why I never 100% trusted her.  But, it turned out that my gut was right not to.  Still, take peace in knowing that going in fully armed with the knowledge of what BPD is, the outcome is probably going to be the same.

[bAlex]

Yes. I just would have handled things differently. I didn't understand any of it at the time and I know I could have made better choices regarding how I reacted to things... I believe it would have made all the difference. Life would have been easier just by knowing.

I knew, going in the second time.  J is diagnosed, on meds, and is 3 months into DBT. 

It didn't make a difference.  She still lied, cheated (at least on an emotional level, physical is debatable), manipulated, triangulated, and emotionally abused me for most of our 1 year r/s.

Life wasn't easier by knowing.  Granted she and I had a history to start with, so perhaps that's why I never 100% trusted her.  But, it turned out that my gut was right not to.  Still, take peace in knowing that going in fully armed with the knowledge of what BPD is, the outcome is probably going to be the same.

Maybe man, I dunno anymore really. Some days I would agree with you, some days not... Although I know that I wasn't really responsible for any of it, I think that if I just responded in a better way to whatever the issue was she wouldn't have lost respect for me... I sometimes get jealous of the idea that just maybe the new guy is doing everything right and they're happy as can be. It's unlikely to be true given her history, but there's doubt sometimes, is she REALLY that bad? 

[Lonely_Astro]

Yes. I just would have handled things differently. I didn't understand any of it at the time and I know I could have made better choices regarding how I reacted to things... I believe it would have made all the difference. Life would have been easier just by knowing.

I knew, going in the second time.  J is diagnosed, on meds, and is 3 months into DBT. 

It didn't make a difference.  She still lied, cheated (at least on an emotional level, physical is debatable), manipulated, triangulated, and emotionally abused me for most of our 1 year r/s.

Life wasn't easier by knowing.  Granted she and I had a history to start with, so perhaps that's why I never 100% trusted her.  But, it turned out that my gut was right not to.  Still, take peace in knowing that going in fully armed with the knowledge of what BPD is, the outcome is probably going to be the same.

Maybe man, I dunno anymore really. Some days I would agree with you, some days not... Although I know that I wasn't really responsible for any of it, I think that if I just responded in a better way to whatever the issue was she wouldn't have lost respect for me... I sometimes get jealous of the idea that just maybe the new guy is doing everything right and they're happy as can be. It's unlikely to be true given her history, but there's doubt sometimes, is she REALLY that bad? 

I understand what you're going through.  I said that to myself, too.  Logically I know that J isn't "better" and may love me in her way but her way is unhealthy.  She's seemed so lucid these past few days that I've questioned whether or not I'm making the right decision to force NC (for at least 2 months).  Honestly I suspect we won't talk to each other after that time for a couple of reasons: the FOG will lift and she'll be in a new r/s by that point.  I give her less than a week of us being NC before she announces to everyone she's dating/seeing someone because she's now officially on the market again (divorce from M is final from what I can tell).

I'm also gone, so that leaves her "guilt free" to do as she pleases.  She would justify it to me by saying that I chose to leave so she had to move on to (regardless of how/why I left, I left and therefore it's my fault).  Will the new guy do better with her?  On its face, yes, but below the surface she'll still be the mentally ill person she is and eventually it'll come crashing down around him too.  Sure, she's in DBT but that's no guarantee.  So far I know she's skipped several appointments (yesterday she told me she was supposed to go but decided not to because she wanted to go get her nails done instead) which tells me she's not really serious about it.

It doesn't matter how you would've responded to her behavior.  You still would've ended up here.  Trust me.

[Welgrow]

Maybe man, I dunno anymore really. Some days I would agree with you, some days not... Although I know that I wasn't really responsible for any of it, I think that if I just responded in a better way to whatever the issue was she wouldn't have lost respect for me... I sometimes get jealous of the idea that just maybe the new guy is doing everything right and they're happy as can be. It's unlikely to be true given her history, but there's doubt sometimes, is she REALLY that bad?  [/quote]
My friend, the doubt and second guessing seem to be part of our issues that need healing. I am realizing more and more that my childhood conditioned me to do what you're describing. I want to believe that my former gal might just be alright and just had a bad stretch. I think that maybe I could have done something different. I either block out or try to explain away the unacceptable behaviors. Yesterday, my mom described to me some events from my childhood. She told me a number of stories involving my alcoholic father that were clear cases of abuse and neglect. I blocked them out and clung to the good memories. I can only muster a few of the scary memories. I am conditioned to block out the negative junk about the people I love. I learned that as a survival mechanism with my father. The most painful memory I can remember was when my father got sober and then divorced my mom and moved away. He left us and we rarely saw him. I have my own set of abandonment issues and luckily I ended up becoming the codependent rescuer instead of becoming borderline. I really think this is an opportunity for you and I and all of us to do our respective self searching so that we can become whole people and find the love and happiness we crave. But in the meantime this emotional pain sucks. The crying fits and loneliness. Dredging up painful memories from my past. Geez I wish this was easier. Happy New Year everyone.

[blanchard]

Never.

Years suffering from osmotic diarrhea would have been more life-enhancing than my brush with BPD; there are some life lessons that are best avoided. 

[bAlex]

Yes. I just would have handled things differently. I didn't understand any of it at the time and I know I could have made better choices regarding how I reacted to things... I believe it would have made all the difference. Life would have been easier just by knowing.

I knew, going in the second time.  J is diagnosed, on meds, and is 3 months into DBT. 

It didn't make a difference.  She still lied, cheated (at least on an emotional level, physical is debatable), manipulated, triangulated, and emotionally abused me for most of our 1 year r/s.

Life wasn't easier by knowing.  Granted she and I had a history to start with, so perhaps that's why I never 100% trusted her.  But, it turned out that my gut was right not to.  Still, take peace in knowing that going in fully armed with the knowledge of what BPD is, the outcome is probably going to be the same.

Maybe man, I dunno anymore really. Some days I would agree with you, some days not... Although I know that I wasn't really responsible for any of it, I think that if I just responded in a better way to whatever the issue was she wouldn't have lost respect for me... I sometimes get jealous of the idea that just maybe the new guy is doing everything right and they're happy as can be. It's unlikely to be true given her history, but there's doubt sometimes, is she REALLY that bad? 

I understand what you're going through.  I said that to myself, too.  Logically I know that J isn't "better" and may love me in her way but her way is unhealthy.  She's seemed so lucid these past few days that I've questioned whether or not I'm making the right decision to force NC (for at least 2 months).  Honestly I suspect we won't talk to each other after that time for a couple of reasons: the FOG will lift and she'll be in a new r/s by that point.  I give her less than a week of us being NC before she announces to everyone she's dating/seeing someone because she's now officially on the market again (divorce from M is final from what I can tell).

I'm also gone, so that leaves her "guilt free" to do as she pleases.  She would justify it to me by saying that I chose to leave so she had to move on to (regardless of how/why I left, I left and therefore it's my fault).  Will the new guy do better with her?  On its face, yes, but below the surface she'll still be the mentally ill person she is and eventually it'll come crashing down around him too.  Sure, she's in DBT but that's no guarantee.  So far I know she's skipped several appointments (yesterday she told me she was supposed to go but decided not to because she wanted to go get her nails done instead) which tells me she's not really serious about it.

It doesn't matter how you would've responded to her behavior.  You still would've ended up here.  Trust me.

I'm starting to think this too... No, actually I'm convinced of it. There is no happy ending with them, no matter what. I take back what I said, I would never have dated that b*tch if I knew about this stuff.

[bAlex]

Maybe man, I dunno anymore really. Some days I would agree with you, some days not... Although I know that I wasn't really responsible for any of it, I think that if I just responded in a better way to whatever the issue was she wouldn't have lost respect for me... I sometimes get jealous of the idea that just maybe the new guy is doing everything right and they're happy as can be. It's unlikely to be true given her history, but there's doubt sometimes, is she REALLY that bad? 

My friend, the doubt and second guessing seem to be part of our issues that need healing. I am realizing more and more that my childhood conditioned me to do what you're describing. I want to believe that my former gal might just be alright and just had a bad stretch. I think that maybe I could have done something different. I either block out or try to explain away the unacceptable behaviors. Yesterday, my mom described to me some events from my childhood. She told me a number of stories involving my alcoholic father that were clear cases of abuse and neglect. I blocked them out and clung to the good memories. I can only muster a few of the scary memories. I am conditioned to block out the negative junk about the people I love. I learned that as a survival mechanism with my father. The most painful memory I can remember was when my father got sober and then divorced my mom and moved away. He left us and we rarely saw him. I have my own set of abandonment issues and luckily I ended up becoming the codependent rescuer instead of becoming borderline. I really think this is an opportunity for you and I and all of us to do our respective self searching so that we can become whole people and find the love and happiness we crave. But in the meantime this emotional pain sucks. The crying fits and loneliness. Dredging up painful memories from my past. Geez I wish this was easier. Happy New Year everyone. [/quote]
Sorry to hear that. I'm sure it will get easier, one day we will look back and be like "really? I beat myself up over YOU? was I drunk?" There's no other option really, is there?

[zman]

Never.  After 2 BPD relationships in my life you would think I would have learned.  I stumbled onto the third BPD that I am in the middle of leaving.  In all cases after short time of dating or long distance "dating" I would commit or somehow tie myself to them (as in a 1 year apartment lease ).  Then I did everything I could to show my love to them and dig myself so deep but I would eventually prove to myself yes this is beyond repair.  Then I would have to dig myself out of a hole.  The holes have gotten less deep and less treacherous to climb out of.  But it is such a painful fall into the hole where my health, finances, friendships, and sense of self get damaged.  My first BPD was very low functioning, cutting, heavy drinking, can't keep a job, no penny to her name, cheating, violent.  Second was very high functioning, highly intelligent, educated, great credit score but still cheating, blaming, heavy drinking... .And the last one has done a ton of therapy on herself and is commited to therapy but I am not staying.  This is her own road and even though she believes she can heal and I have seen so much progress - disociation episodes are gone, she can say I am sorry, she can say I am sorry for a specific thing, she uses coping skills to calm herself down (coloring, walks, taking space, music, art, etc.), she can list her faults.  Listing her faults took forever like a year and what damaged me the most.  I finally realized maybe she is a visual learner and she can not learn with just talking.  So i drew a circle and split it down the middle.  Left was J's fault and right was Z's fault.  For weeks after an argument I would bring the circle.  For every thing I would do my best to write it down in my side of the circle and apologize and take accountability for what was my fault.  Well my half was so full and her half was blank empty - ZERO  Eventually, she threw my paper away.  But one day she came back with all her side filled out.  It was cathartic for me and I knew she was working so hard on this and how much courage it took to write it down and acknowledge.  She was shaking.  This happened after I repeatedly told her during previous weeks you are a good person and instead of shame you should stand so tall and be proud of what you have become and overcome.  She really  has made a ton of progress and I am so proud of her... .BUT my health has suffered and I have turned into her own on call therapist which is not what I signed up for.  I have my own dreams to chase and cant be putting so much emotional energy into the relationship at the cost of my health, sanity, friendships, and finances... .

I did encounter one BPD before her and I immediately saw through it all and I discontinued the dating even though there was a promise of wild nights . I know it is difficult with raging hormones.  

I am sorry for such a long post but NO I would not engage with a BPD if I knew apriori.  I would open a clinic and make that my profession if that was my life's dream and it is not and I am not even remotely strong enough emotionally for that.

[thisworld]

Never.

Years suffering from osmotic diarrhea would have been more life-enhancing than my brush with BPD; there are some life lessons that are best avoided. 

How ironic is it that when I first read "years suffering for osmotic diarrhea" I immediately perceived it as an apt metaphor for a BPD relationship.

[bAlex]

Never.

Years suffering from osmotic diarrhea would have been more life-enhancing than my brush with BPD; there are some life lessons that are best avoided. 

Amen brotha!

[Invictus01]

Nope. If I knew what it is and all details and all that... .would have walked away immediately.

[anxiety5]

The only person who would agree to be with someone who has BPD and you had extreme awareness of it would be a text book masochist or someone who is lost.  

When someone with a BPD enduring abuse says "I love them" It's evident that you truly have no concept of what love is or you have no self respect. I don't mean that disrespectfully I was there. I was that person. I accepted her cheating, her verbal abuse, the mood shifts, the episodes and being treated like garbage.

Unless you are a masochist who would agree to this? It's abuse and an unwinnable situation with a sum game of zero to you. Love her and she will devalue you. Don't love her and she will manipulate you into loving her so that she can devalue you. Co-dependence is a nasty thing. It can be fixed but your willingness to tolerate abuse is in direct proportion to how bad YOUR co-dependence issues are.

I was gas lit, manipulated, lied to and naive as hell. I knew nothing of this stuff. I took people at their face value and never thought in a million years someone could behave the way she did. If I had known that there is no way in hell I would have ever even spoken to her let alone agree to be with her.

[grumpydonut]

I believe hindsight bias is always going to play its part here.

Who I was before the relationship is not who I am now. I was not privy to the destruction a BPD can cause, and I believe I still would have dated her if I had have been alive to the truths of BPD.

That said, those of us who stick around with a BPD are - mostly - dealing with unconscious issues of our own that make us vulnerable to the lures of those with BPD.

I, for instance, felt unloved and unworthy at my core - thus I was drawn in by the infatuation.

I felt not enough for my Mum as a child, as she loved her new partner. Thus when I was cheated on, it drew me back into these feelings and I masochistically enjoyed it, while I wanted to prove I was enough!

We all have our reasons for staying with these monsters (yes, they are hurt and disordered, but there is nothing "hateful" for pointing out that their actions make them monstrous individuals), and that is the part of the dance we must a) take responsibility for b) work to fix so we aren't drawn into relationships with these sort again.

Since my ex with BPD and I broke up in March, I have found myself attracted to another BPD and also went on a date with a third. Are they just that good at picking people like me, or am I a wilful victim? (Hint, it's the latter until I fix the underlying issues).

[dindin]

I moght be one of the few, but my exBPD, to her credit, told me about the diagnosis on the second date.

Now, I read about it, saw videos, etc., and I said well ok, this cant be that bad... Despite knowing about it, I had no idea what was coming.

In my opinion, the reality of the disorder is much much different than the intellectual understanding. For someone who hasnt been around symptoms as they present in real life, it's so hard to understand. Unless youre a psychologist who has seen it clinically, nothing can prepare you for it.

[Goosey]

What a great question!
   I’ll ponder on it.
I hope it doesn’t fall into the rumination category because I have a full time job with those thoughts as it is.

[Football2000]

Man, I think about this all the time. I do think that if I went back in time and told my younger self everything I know now, my younger self might not get into the relationship in the first place.

[Goosey]

What came first. The chicken or the egg.

[Goosey]

This thread got reinstated after like five years.
Not that that matters.
But let’s hope whomever started it made it through.
  Anyway absolutely I would do it again.
I got a daughter from it and she is smart and intuitive and has tolerated my despondent times through this mess.
She is well aware of her mother’s issues. She handles it like a pro and has a full life with people who love and respect her.
  She is a spitfire and barely tolerates my bouts of feeling blue or self pity. And she is right. It’ is what it is.
So yes absolutely I would do it again back then.
Just won’t do it again now

[quiller]

ONLY UNTIL THE FIRST DISCARD!
the sex and affection was great and would do that again in a sheartbeat. knowing that this illness is a cycle - i don't know if I would have put in the 8 years I did.
The pain of the discard is overwhelming.