Thoughts of "will the next one make it?"

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello all,

Recently my 1 year r/s with my pwBPD came to an end. Like many, I took a second bite of the apple and it didn't go so well. I know my ex has moved on to another guy after alienating me for about 3 months in r/s limbo.  I'm wondering if he will fare better than me.

I say that because the last guy she moved onto after our r/s failed 4 years ago she married. They have since divorced (well, in the process of). She claims he was abusive (I agree as I have independent verification of that). Anyway, the new guy is more available than I was and seems to be a nice guy from what I know of him (though he's a bit arrogant and a smart a$$ based on conversations I've had with him).

I guess I'm feeling down because we ended and he has a chance to succeed with her and all the things we discussed we wanted. She's medicated and in DBT (for now). I'm just having a hard day with this. What if he has the magic formula that I didn't?

[Lonely_Astro]

Hello all,

Recently my 1 year r/s with my pwBPD came to an end. Like many, I took a second bite of the apple and it didn't go so well. I know my ex has moved on to another guy after alienating me for about 3 months in r/s limbo.  I'm wondering if he will fare better than me.

I say that because the last guy she moved onto after our r/s failed 4 years ago she married. They have since divorced (well, in the process of). She claims he was abusive (I agree as I have independent verification of that). Anyway, the new guy is more available than I was and seems to be a nice guy from what I know of him (though he's a bit arrogant and a smart a$$ based on conversations I've had with him).

I guess I'm feeling down because we ended and he has a chance to succeed with her and all the things we discussed we wanted. She's medicated and in DBT (for now). I'm just having a hard day with this. What if he has the magic formula that I didn't?

[Confused?]

This is a topic that seems like most people struggle with. I don't think it's a matter of the next guy succeeding. The only way for a relationship to work is if both individuals are healthy enough to be in one. And with BPD that is not the case.

[hopealways]

This is a topic that seems like most people struggle with. I don't think it's a matter of the next guy succeeding. The only way for a relationship to work is if both individuals are healthy enough to be in one. And with BPD that is not the case.

in BOLD: BINGO! This is the point. At some point after the idealization phase, they will be discarded as well.That is just how it goes.

[Anez]

I know how you feel, astro. There's always that thought of what if he has that magic formula. i think about that a lot when i get down about my situation and it can hurt you to your core.

But think about J and go back and re-read some of the stuff you wrote about her and her past relationships and her shortcomings in those. I don't think there's a magic formula that can make a relationship with her work. She'll end up doing the same thing to this guy, too. and he's gonna hurt, too.

keep your chin up. I'm having a rough day, too. It just suck how it goes in waves.

Do something good for yourself tonight. focus on positive things. my friend sometimes has me write down a list of 10 things i'm grateful for in my life and that helps.

but this pain is tough. we both know that. Sorry you're having a rough one.

[Alberto]

I tend to think that in the upside down world of BPD, succeding in a relationship is settling down with someone whose abandonment is not threatening for their egos. It's a pyrrhic victory. The way I experienced it, love for a BPD is anxiety, fear, insecurity and pain, they can't win.

[Mutt]

I guess I'm feeling down because we ended and he has a chance to succeed with her and all the things we discussed we wanted. She's medicated and in DBT (for now). I'm just having a hard day with this. What if he has the magic formula that I didn't?

This is a topic that seems like most people struggle with. I don't think it's a matter of the next guy succeeding. The only way for a relationship to work is if both individuals are healthy enough to be in one. And with BPD that is not the case.

Hi Lonely_Astro,

It may or may not work with the next guy. Maybe he's the type of guy that reacts less with her behaviors, it may succeed but your self worth is not based on the next guy.

You took a second bite of the apple. She married the last guy and that ended in divorce. Divorcing a pwBPD is hell in the court systems. You dodged a bullet. What have you learned about yourself in this relationship that you can take forward with you?

[Lonely_Astro]

I know how you feel, astro. There's always that thought of what if he has that magic formula. i think about that a lot when i get down about my situation and it can hurt you to your core.

But think about J and go back and re-read some of the stuff you wrote about her and her past relationships and her shortcomings in those. I don't think there's a magic formula that can make a relationship with her work. She'll end up doing the same thing to this guy, too. and he's gonna hurt, too.

keep your chin up. I'm having a rough day, too. It just suck how it goes in waves.

Do something good for yourself tonight. focus on positive things. my friend sometimes has me write down a list of 10 things i'm grateful for in my life and that helps.

but this pain is tough. we both know that. Sorry you're having a rough one.

Thanks, Anez.  It's just not easy for me giving that I was kept in limbo for as long as I was.  I mean, I had sort of accepted in the back of my mind around mid-November that she was done with me, but I could never get a straight answer out of her.  As recent as Friday when we had 1-1 time to talk on a personal level she was still very much wishing for me to stick around.  Of course, that was all the while she was talking to the new guy (R).  She had led me to believe that they had had dinner once "as friends" but let it slip they had actually been out twice, so there went the "just friends" theory.

It was funny.  She begged to spend the day with me Friday, which I did.  She said she wanted to see me the next day if I didn't have plans.  I did, so I told her I couldn't see her but I would talk to her.  She did text me quite a bit Saturday (and even FaceTime with me), but abruptly stopped.  I figured she was with R, since she had mentioned that he wanted to hang out Saturday (she claimed she told him she was busy, but I'm figuring that once I shot her down on seeing me, her calendar suddenly freed up).  Sunday she didn't really speak to me at all but suddenly FaceTime with me.  She said she was going to her uncles for a "christmas thing" (btw, she told me she had a family christmas thing every day this weekend, definitely a lie).  I'm figuring she was contacting me when she could, but spent most of time around R.  I further believe that because I had asked her what had happened to her Sat/Sun and she ignored the question - a classic tell she was feeling guilty for having been with R.

Today, I didn't reach out and she did.  I told her it was time to face reality and that we could no longer be together and outlined a lot of what she had said to me Friday and her behavior over the weekend.  Don't get me wrong, I had distanced myself from her this weekend on purpose.  I didn't want to confuse myself by allowing her to come over and talk or anything.  R is here to stay, at least for awhile and with that, we are done. 

Throughout the weekend she kept telling me that I "needed to do what was best for me" and that I "didn't deserve to be hurt" along with how much she "didn't hate me, loved me and always would."  She went on to say she wouldn't make any promises to me.  She also said that in one of our last text conversations to each other.  At that point, I pulled the ripcord and (without being hostile) told her that I knew we couldn't be together and that it was best for me to go, but that I still cared for her and wished her the best with R.  It wasn't a lie, I do wish that for her even if it isn't with me.  The only response I got from her, which was over 2 hours later was "that's super heavy."  Yeah, you think?  You just lost one of the best guys in your life, who you said understood you better than anyone and could talk about your BPD openly with, who's put up with a crap ton of antics, and that's the best you can come up with?  Thanks for your emotionally deep response to someone you claim to love so much (btw, she claimed I would never open up to her enough, but when I did, it was stuff like that I'd get back).   

The sad part, in reflection, is that R is already getting the knife in his back and doesnt realize it yet.  Look at what she's been doing while dating him.  She's still been emotionally talking to me about "us" every chance she gets.  She even went as far as saying she had hoped there was a future for us because she wanted to give me all those dreams we talked about.  Hell, Friday she even went as far as grabbing my hand and holding onto it when a song she was playing came on the radio in the car when we were driving.  I'm sure she's madly already falling for R yet doing stuff like that with me.  Not to mention how she was complaining about how R kept talking about how "hot" she was on their "non-date".  So, in essence, she's already starting to devalue him in her mind (at least it seems that way).  Not to mention that she told me while she was at dinner with him, she was actually at dinner with me in her mind.  She told me she felt so guilty and ashamed to be with him.  Of course, I was thinking, "but that didn't stop you, now did it?"  At some point, she had to say to herself she didn't feel right by doing what she was doing, but she did it anyway.  I simply can't trust her.  That's the #1 reason why I fully, undoubtedly ended it today.

Mutt asked what I've learned about myself during all this.  I've learned that she makes me weak.  I've learned that she has been my Kryptonite for far to long (even Supes builds a tolerance to it after awhile).  I've learned that the illusion of her made me feel good, but the reality of her made me feel bad.  When we first started up, I was an upbeat person who was decently laid back.  Toward the end of 'us', I was a paranoid, ill tempered, depressed, emotionally deprived fiend that would take whatever she dished out just to get another hit of her love.  It's sad, really.

But, I still wonder if R will succeed where M, B, N (though I don't think N was in a r/s with her for emotion, just sex)  and myself failed: to have a true r/s with her.  I say that because she is now going to DBT and as of our last talk about it she is still in it (though she said she's just doing single sessions that she wasn't ready for group).  I know that DBT isn't the magic bullet, but what if R was able to do what I couldn't?  I don't exactly measure my self worth on the success or failure of their r/s, I just know what all her and I talked, dreamed, and contemplated about.  As weird as it sounds, I don't see R as worthy of her.  I've spoken to him several times and he's a pompous guy that has immediately hit my "irritated" nerve when he speaks (honestly, I've wanted to slap him in the face a couple of times because of how disrespectful he talks to those around him).  He talks down to people or at least tries to.  He seems very "one up", too.  He's also is in the middle of a divorce (his wife was sleeping with two other guys, one of which she is still with as an open couple).  Coincidently, that's how R and J came to be... .they are "going through the same things together" as she put it to me   .  I'm just worried that he is using her as filler.  I know I shouldn't owe any loyalty to her, but I feel like he just isn't right for her.

I wish I could turn my emotions off like she does   

[once removed]

hey lonely_astro 

i definitely had those thoughts, i suspect most of us do.

it stopped mattering to me whether my replacement succeeded though, when i genuinely determined, and internalized, that i was done with the relationship, and would not return; that we tried, and didnt work. for that matter, that if she were to improve through therapy, i likely wouldnt much recognize her anyway. none of this occurred to or was felt by me for probably a year. maybe i still wanted proof shed fail.

my replacement lasted longer than i did, though it did end. i wasnt present for it so its impossible for me to say whether it was "better" or "worse" but from what i gather, it sounds like the first few months were more of a nightmare than mine. thats the crux of it, for me. forget about BPD, whether she will improve or fail, there were behaviors that i have enough evidence are something she brings to every relationship - the jealousy, disrespect of privacy, disrespect for boundaries, near inability to give her partner any space that are either incompatible with me, or downright intolerable. maybe she can improve on them. maybe she is more compatible with someone else.

i think this fear often (not always) revolves around wondering if you could have done better. sure you could have, thats always true in every relationship and its okay. relationships and partners make great teachers. i learned a lot; i think i gained a certain freedom from the relationship patterns that i was creating and im better equipped for healthier relationships. knowing that you could have done better doesnt mean the relationship was for you or me.

were there some behavior that were incompatible with you or downright intolerable, lonely_astro?

[Lonely_Astro]

were there some behavior that were incompatible with you or downright intolerable, lonely_astro?

In all honesty, yes.  There were many things that made us incompatible.  To list some of them:

- Personalities.  I don't care if people like/dislike me, everyone had to like J.  There was no alternative.  J didn't seem to care for my bluntness (aka truthfulness, though I could be more tactful sometimes, but I was always careful with her).  J would always seem bubbly around people but would often complain childishly to me.  Or worse, be depressed for weeks on end because of this or that.

- Interest.  J was interested in few things.  She loves country music, loves romance novels/movies, loves dressing like a country girl, loves the water, loves going to concerts.  Notice I indicated how she loves those things?  I say that because I dislike those things (though I never minded seeing her in a sundress and cowboy boots) and she was quick to point out that she loved those things and couldn't see how we'd ever get along because we were so different (those statements popped up once the idealization phase was starting to wane).  She would often point out how someone as educated, cultured, and smart as myself would never be interested in such a "simple girl" as herself.  We pretty much had zero in common when it came to movies, tv, literature, etc.  In fact, she found my "nerdiness" cute, but would daze out when I started talking about it or (worse) would want to change topics if I was talking to someone about something she deemed nerdy.

- Broken promises.  J would always find a way to break a promise to me.  It may have been small, but she would never follow through with something she said she would do.  For instance, she had hyped me up for my birthday and when the day came, she was sick (which was probably true, I had been sick a few days before - it was going around) but never even tried to make it up to me.  In fact, she pushed me away after that and that was the beginning of the end.  I take pride in not breaking my promises.  If I have to, I make sure that I make up for it somehow.  I want important people in my life to know they are important.  I can't say the same for her, even though she would constantly talk about how everyone was "dumping crap" on her because she "cared to much for other people."  Truth be told, she's one of the most selfish brats I've ever met in my life.  She even said, later, she was mad I didn't do anything for her birthday (a few days after mine).  Frankly, she never gave me the chance and also told me a trip I had planned for us at the end of October was to be her gift from me because of how expensive it was.  Oh, I also later found out she didn't really want to go because I hadn't included her in the plans for said trip and I wasn't going to do anything she wanted to do - even though I had no plans (except one, which I asked if she wanted to do) and it was a weekend getaway, not a month adventure in Europe.  I travel quite often, another thing she "hated" because she had never been on a plane.  She would get anxious when I talked about taking her somewhere (although all she would ever focus on was a cruise because she had been on one with her ex and parents, which she loved and hated).

One thing that was very intolerable to me about her was that she constantly couldn't do stuff.  I'd talk about camping (I'm an outdoor type) and she said she just couldn't do it (she had to have her hair straightener, etc).  I also talked about buying some property to hobby farm and you thought I had slapped her in the face.  She told me she loved country music and dressing that way but she was a "city girl through and through" - whatever that means.  She was married to a guy who had almost 80 acres to raise cattle on.  I always found stuff like that intolerable.

I'm sure I could go on about it.  The only thing we seemed to 'do right' was sleep together.  It's sad, but true.  We didn't really have much else than that.  Of course we would have lunch or dinner together and talk about how much we cared (later, loved) each other and our hopes/dreams/goals for the future.  Whats funny, in reflection, what we talked about was mostly family life (something that seems very important to J).  Sure, we talked about trips and stuff like that, but I don't think she would've ever wanted to go.  I mean, she gets anxious going to our nearest metro city, I can't imagine what it would be like to travel across the pond or somewhere far away with her.

Maybe I just had an epiphany:  what did she really have to offer me other than a fun time in the sack?  It's not like this past year has been all rainbows and candy canes.  All she really did was fantasize with me about a future us and run down her mom/ex husband/whoever with me while buying me lunch.  Dinners were spent with her mom calling every 3 minutes, so I didn't even get the joy of that with her.  Literally, when you wash it all away, all we had was a physical attachment.  Wow.  I've never given it this perspective before.  Thank you, once removed.

[Kelli Cornett]

(though he's a bit arrogant and a smart a$$ based on conversations I've had with him).

That made me 

[Lonely_Astro]

That made me 

It's only the truth.  I know him as an acquaintance, apparently J and him go "back for years".  To be fair, I do remember her telling me she had known him for quite awhile, long before he became a love interest of hers (as far as I know, anyway).  Anyway, we debated for a long time over video editing software and he was extremely arrogant then.  I've been around others with him present and he talks to everyone with an air of superiority.  I've never liked him, even more so now.

[C.Stein]

I've been around others with him present and he talks to everyone with an air of superiority.  I've never liked him, even more so now.

Don't worry, J will likely reduce him to an emotional wreck with little self-confidence and self-esteem left.

[shatra]

lonelyastro wrote--

What if he has the magic formula that I didn't?

-----Noone has the magic formula. Even if he is more "tolerant" of her ways, eventually she will discard him or he will discard her when he's had enough

Mutt wrote---

It may or may not work with the next guy. Maybe he's the type of guy that reacts less with her behaviors, it may succeed but your self worth is not based on the next guy.

----Not sure why one would think it could work with the next guy-----even if he reacts less with her behaviors... .eventually even a saint will be unable to put up with it.  Any relationship with an untreated BPD doesnt' "succeed"---it may go on but the word "success" doesn't apply

Mutt also wrote----

You took a second bite of the apple. She married the last guy and that ended in divorce

-----So she has been with Lonely at least twice,the other guy she divorced, and at least 2 others Lonely mentioned---none of those worked... .even more reason to think that the current guy won't last either, no matter how tolerant he is

[thisworld]

I've been around others with him present and he talks to everyone with an air of superiority.  I've never liked him, even more so now.

Don't worry, J will likely reduce him to an emotional wreck with little self-confidence and self-esteem left.

Hmm, we may see a NPD - BPD dance in near future. If they manage to synch their steps, they may last longer - do not believe for a second that there will be one thing resembling love, friendship, kindness etc in it. If steps do not synch, small scale armaggedon. It would be advisable to stay outside it, they manage to cause so much damage to others in this dance - you lend them an ear, it is twisted and told to the NPD or BPD in unimaginable ways, they have a PhD in triangulation.

[Lonely_Astro]

I've been around others with him present and he talks to everyone with an air of superiority.  I've never liked him, even more so now.

Don't worry, J will likely reduce him to an emotional wreck with little self-confidence and self-esteem left.

Hmm, we may see a NPD - BPD dance in near future. If they manage to synch their steps, they may last longer - do not believe for a second that there will be one thing resembling love, friendship, kindness etc in it. If steps do not synch, small scale armaggedon. It would be advisable to stay outside it, they manage to cause so much damage to others in this dance - you lend them an ear, it is twisted and told to the NPD or BPD in unimaginable ways, they have a PhD in triangulation.

I didn't want to be hypersensitive and seem like I was throwing around the guy could have NPD (or at least heavy traits of). With that said though, it wouldn't surprise me.  I've talked with him a handful of times and he's been rather arrogant each time.  Personally, I think he's using her for a lay, but it's not my place to mention anything to her. She's an adult and chose him over me, it's her loss in the end. I offered the world she always wanted and she rejected it.  That's not my fault.

But, whether he is or isn't, doesn't matter.  What does matter is she is definitely doing is (at the minimum)  triangulation. Our r/s was unstable, so she's attempting to stabilize it by getting with R and "confessing" about it in order to invoke an emotional response in me (and thus 'proving' my love for her). Only problem with that is when she triangled this time, I said 'adios' and she doesn't know exactly how to respond to that. She keeps saying she knows we can't be together but keeps talking to me anyway.  I need to stop responding to her, but she's still human and I feel guilty for just walking away like I know I need to (not for her, for me). I don't keep talking to her in hopes we'll get back together, I stick around because I want to ease her away to minimize any potential retaliation from her. She's never been aggressive like that (that I know of), but one never knows what will be that first trigger.

[thisworld]

I don't keep talking to her in hopes we'll get back together, I stick around because I want to ease her away to minimize any potential retaliation from her. She's never been aggressive like that (that I know of), but one never knows what will be that first trigger.

I'm doing that,too. Gray rock. Like we will be so boring and bland - like a gray rock in the scenery- that at one point they'll think that THEY don't want to do anything to do with us, the boring ones and they just get out of our lives without even the motivation to retaliate. But it has certain principles to follow. Are you following them? I don't think it works otherwise.

[Lonely_Astro]

I don't keep talking to her in hopes we'll get back together, I stick around because I want to ease her away to minimize any potential retaliation from her. She's never been aggressive like that (that I know of), but one never knows what will be that first trigger.

I'm doing that,too. Gray rock. Like we will be so boring and bland - like a gray rock in the scenery- that at one point they'll think that THEY don't want to do anything to do with us, the boring ones and they just get out of our lives without even the motivation to retaliate. But it has certain principles to follow. Are you following them? I don't think it works otherwise.

I'm not so much following a step by step guide as I am just doing what I feel is right for me as I go along. I don't engage in emotional conversation and if she does, I respond with bland things like "I know" "I understand" or something like that. I want nothing more than to talk to her on a deep emotional level, but it's futile to try. If I do, I met with generic responses or ST for a few days.  If she wants to see me, I tell her I'm busy.  If she calls, I'll often let it go to voicemail.  I feel bad for ignoring her like that but I also know it's not in my best interest to stay intertwined with her on a romantic level.

I do believe she wants to give me everything she's said she wants to, but she can't.  That's not fair to me or her.  It's not fair to us. I don't deserve the things she's done to me over the past year. I haven't been perfect toward her, either, but if we did a side by side comparison my slights against her fails in comparison what she's done to me. But this isn't about blame or who's right or wrong, it's about us not working and how to best move forward from that.

[FannyB]

Hi Lonely_Astro

I've had these thoughts as well - less so now that I don't want to be with her any more so nobody can 'steal my future from me'.

It is possible he could outlast you, as he sounds vaguely narcissistic by your description which can be very attractive to a pwBPD. 

However, longer term he's in for a very bumpy ride even if they do manage to stay together - and it's unlikely to be the kind of union that will make us singletons green with envy.


Fanny

[Lonely_Astro]

Hi Lonely_Astro

I've had these thoughts as well - less so now that I don't want to be with her any more so nobody can 'steal my future from me'.

It is possible he could outlast you, as he sounds vaguely narcissistic by your description which can be very attractive to a pwBPD. 

However, longer term he's in for a very bumpy ride even if they do manage to stay together - and it's unlikely to be the kind of union that will make us singletons green with envy.


Fanny

Logically, I know R won't fair any better than I did. Or M, B, and even N did.  I still can't help but feel that with meds and DBT they'll somehow 'work' and I would've missed out on the greatness she is capable of if I just held out a little longer.  I know it's a folly to think like that, but I'm just sort of trapped in that mindset right now.

[FannyB]

Can understand your logic mate but wasn't the 'greatness' that you saw simply a different manifestation of the disorder? Wouldn't a 'cured' borderline be as likely to be idealization-free as much as they would be able to manage the compulsion to devalue? Maybe it was the disorder that made her great as much as it made her terrible too?

That's the way I look at it anyway. Don't think that a vanilla version of my ex would hold the same intoxicating appeal to me.


Fanny

[Lonely_Astro]

Can understand your logic mate but wasn't the 'greatness' that you saw simply a different manifestation of the disorder? Wouldn't a 'cured' borderline be as likely to be idealization-free as much as they would be able to manage the compulsion to devalue? Maybe it was the disorder that made her great as much as it made her terrible too?

That's the way I look at it anyway. Don't think that a vanilla version of my ex would hold the same intoxicating appeal to me.


Fanny

Maybe we're thinking two deprecate was. I don't mean idealization was what was important to me. What I mean by greatness is her being like she wants to be (a partner, a mother, someone who loves life, is happy, and has all the emotional things she wants and deserves). If that meant she was 'vanilla', then so be it. There were often times I felt she was who she wanted to be with me. Those times, of course, didn't last.  That's why I was excited for her to start DBT on top of the meds. I saw DBT as the answer, the cure if you will. I have this fantasy in my head that she'll be the great woman I know she is in a few months or a year down the road. I feel selfish for leaving, even though logic dictates she won't get 'better' and I saved myself a lot more heartache and turmoil by exiting when I did.

[FannyB]

I think a lot of borderlines have an idealized view of what would make them happy - but unfortunately their behaviours do not back their words up. My ex is embarrassed that she is still without a permanent partner since her divorce - yet she destroys every relationship she enters into. What is the real her - the one that wants to settle down or the one that makes sure that can't happen? I guess I'll never know. 


Fanny

[Lonely_Astro]

I think a lot of borderlines have an idealized view of what would make them happy - but unfortunately their behaviours do not back their words up. My ex is embarrassed that she is still without a permanent partner since her divorce - yet she destroys every relationship she enters into. What is the real her - the one that wants to settle down or the one that makes sure that can't happen? I guess I'll never know. 


Fanny

I see what you're saying.  I think mine wants to settle down, have kids, and have a 'normal' life. Go to the beach on vacations, make Christmas dinners, pay bills, etc. She wants to be 'normal'. We've talked many times about it.  She hates being disordered and wants to be cured because she knows people loves her and wants the best for her but she can't feel that way.

If she didn't have the disorder or at the very least had it managed, she would be an unstoppable force of good. She's good hearted, she just doesn't show it.

[shatra]

Fanny wrote

he sounds vaguely narcissistic by your description which can be very attractive to a pwBPD

------Yes, sounds narcissistic... .can you write about why the narcissist would be so attractive to a BPD and vice-versa?

[thisworld]

This is more or less how it works (from what I have read, observed and can guess because I'm the daughter of a narc and have dated narcs before so I can imagine).

Both go through the same idealize/devalue/discard process. The idealization is even better. Narcs are very giving people in the beginning. Because they can't attract anyone with intimacy, they provide a lot. Activities, gifts whatever. Also, they exude confidence (fake and irritable to the healthy) and the borderline may fall for this authority. I think BPD feels looked after, and the Narc is adored and is trying to secure supply. BPD provides an incredible amount of feeling and NPD likes it - he is empty of attention. Plus, at this stage, the narc doesn't get a wound and doesn't rage and neither does he have emotions the way we do, so BPD is not engulfed. Then Narc's controlling (mostly invalidating) behaviour starts I think and triggers the BPD which scares the Narc that they may be losing the supply. And it goes on like this. But with really disgusting fights and stuff - that probably ends with sex because both use it as a tool. But they recycle each other more easily. Both can be recyclers - the narc doesn't escape because I think unlike nons, BPD cannot see through the narc so he can keep his façade, which is the safest thing for them. Plus probably both of them are triangulating with their online harems etc, so both lets of steam a bit:)) But this is still very tiring with acting out behaviour after the honeymoon (lots of wounds for the narc then which means lots of acting out) and one or both turn into a wreck. Experts usually say the narc is more wrecked but borderlines themselves feel that they are more wrecked. It's strange really, my BPD ex almost had a crush on my non-grandiose Narc mother who was at first very positive to him. Ah, ı wish I organized a dinner for all of us after I separated from the guy. She would eat him alive and I wouldn't have to go gray rock.  

[Lonely_Astro]

Yes, he does sound very narc to me.  I just didn't want to come off as seeming like I was looking for something that wasn't there.  Plus, he's going through a somewhat nasty divorce right now as well.  I guess now is a good time for a story about what I know of him, since I am an acquaintance of his.

He has worked with my company before, as a contractor.  His soon to be ex wife also works with my company.  Well, she started having an affair with not one but two of my co-workers.  Of course, that blew up and everybody was exposed (which came as a total shock to a lot of people, myself included).  He filed for a divorce once it was brought out into the open, naturally.  So he's riding the victim card right now.  Which was also his "in" with J.  Of course, if she didn't want there to be an "in", there wouldn't have been, right?

Anyway, I have talked with him a handful of times over the course of several months.  He's all over social media, as he fancies himself a local celebrity (he produces local cable access programs, etc) and film maker.  Honestly, his stuff isn't that great, but he talks to people like he's the next Abrams, Tarantino, or even Spielberg.  I, too, have film experience but I don't go around flaunting it or acting like I'm a big shot Hollywood player (like he does).

I know they are destined to fail, one way or another.  J hasn't had a meaningful r/s last more than a couple of years that I know of.  But the idea of that pompous douche sleeping with her makes me want to   .  Even if I realize I dodged a bullet with her (even if I did get some flesh wounds), the thought of her being remotely physical with him is painful as hell.  It's even worse that she won't own up to the r/s they've started.  She swears up and down that she's "not with him" (her way of saying she's not in a r/s).  That may be true, but they will be.  I know her to well to know that she's not planning to do something.

The kicker to all that?  Other than our attitudes, he and I are a lot alike.  We both like films, we both are nerds, we both are in the creative industry.  Ultimately that's how I got in touch with him to start with, a mutual acquaintance wanted us to meet since we walked in the same circles (they even warned me he was a little arrogant before the introduction).  I didn't know then that I would be meeting my now replacement.  Sort of makes me want to punch him in the face even more... .although I realize it isn't really his fault.  If she didn't want to replace me, he wouldn't be around.  I had just hoped she would've found someone better than me to have left me for, you know?  I'm like "at least upgrade, damn."

Still.  I can't shake the feeling that they will ride off into the sunset together and have that little house with the little fence with the little kids running around... .and I'll have to sit on the sidelines and watch it all happen because she won't leave where I work (and I have zero intention of leaving myself).  I ask myself daily "why couldn't she have been who she said she was when this all started a year ago?  Where did that girl go?  What happened?"  But, I know the answer... .BPD. 

[Herodias]

"eventually even a saint will be unable to put up with it."

I was that saint! His Dad said so , over and over! I couldn't do it... .It was way too awful. I tried so hard. I really can't imagine him changing with a child on the way either. I can relate to your talking about them wanting to be "normal" and appear "normal". Mine seems to have a lot of NPD traits as well. Even Sociopath traits- It's scary.

[thisworld]

Riding to the sunset, the two of them? I think it would be a wide-angle scene with potential replacements on horses or camels following them from a distance.  

If this person is a narc, there is no way this can happen. One supply is never enough for a narc - and actually, it isn't for the BPD either, is it? the biggest supply of the narc is called the primary, but the rest is always there. He would soon start organizing "business" in town and being a narc, of course he has to share it on social media, and that would trigger BPD.

If BPD recovers with DBT, I don't think she would stay with the narc - though I don't think therapy attempts at the face of new relationships have serious continuity.

I know it's very difficult to think about what is happening, especially if you are a visual person. But I get the feeling that you are thinking that the narc is very negative and your ex is a very positive, helpless, innocent person. I know that our partners are vulnerable to a degree but that's not all they have, is it? Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. They are like everyone, neither completely black nor completely white. Actually, both of these people have their positives and negatives. If you had an intimate, closer relationship with the narc, you would see his innocent, boyish, vulnerable façade, too. They are more similar than different and one of them is not very powerless in the hands of the other. Actually, they are so similar sometimes that many things are written with titles like Borderline/narcissists. Their motives are different but their actions and coping tools are not very different.

Whatever they do, we still have a chance to build our dreams.

[Joem678]

In my case, they never worked out.  I'm not sure if this is accurate but every new guy seemed to get a more intensified BPD experience.  She always ended the relationships.  As time progressed, they went from flirtatious encounters to emotional affairs to physical affairs.  After so many years of this, I've been given the expectation that the pattern will repeat itself.  Apparently, the "extra" relationship will be sabotaged and her wanting to return would be expected, again.  I was actually coached/prepped for this in therapy.

I think the answer to his question, is unique to the experience.

[Lonely_Astro]

Riding to the sunset, the two of them? I think it would be a wide-angle scene with potential replacements on horses or camels following them from a distance.  

If this person is a narc, there is no way this can happen. One supply is never enough for a narc - and actually, it isn't for the BPD either, is it? the biggest supply of the narc is called the primary, but the rest is always there. He would soon start organizing "business" in town and being a narc, of course he has to share it on social media, and that would trigger BPD.

If BPD recovers with DBT, I don't think she would stay with the narc - though I don't think therapy attempts at the face of new relationships have serious continuity.

I know it's very difficult to think about what is happening, especially if you are a visual person. But I get the feeling that you are thinking that the narc is very negative and your ex is a very positive, helpless, innocent person. I know that our partners are vulnerable to a degree but that's not all they have, is it? Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. They are like everyone, neither completely black nor completely white. Actually, both of these people have their positives and negatives. If you had an intimate, closer relationship with the narc, you would see his innocent, boyish, vulnerable façade, too. They are more similar than different and one of them is not very powerless in the hands of the other. Actually, they are so similar sometimes that many things are written with titles like Borderline/narcissists. Their motives are different but their actions and coping tools are not very different.

Whatever they do, we still have a chance to build our dreams.

No, I don't think R is negative and she is positive.  I am sure they are on their best behavior around each other.  Today while J and I were talking, she denied "being with" R even though he's a "great guy".  I believe he's fully being the "great guy" to lure her to whatever he wants from her (I'm guessing sex, since she was quick to point out to me how he kept telling her how 'hot' she was while they were on their date).  Honestly, neither of them should be in a relationship right now, given their mental states (her in DBT with BPD and him going through his divorce from a woman that cheated on him with 2 different guys.  I find it slightly ironic in that he's trying to date a girl that works in the same company that his ex does - but there are so many "what ifs" in that scenario really).

In the end, I can't control the outcome no matter what I want it to be.  But I still struggle with him making her happy where I failed to do so.