Engulfment and abandonment

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Looking back on my relationship, I'm trying to kind of understand when he was engulfed and when he felt abandoned. I have a difficulty with this: I read that sometimes fear of abandonment leads to sabotage and destruction of the relationship rather than BPD clinging on the Non. So, were you able to differentiate when your partner was engulfed and when he feared abandoned and unconsciously sought to sabotage? Is there a way of differentiating the two? Opinions appreciated. 

[thisworld]

Looking back on my relationship, I'm trying to kind of understand when he was engulfed and when he felt abandoned. I have a difficulty with this: I read that sometimes fear of abandonment leads to sabotage and destruction of the relationship rather than BPD clinging on the Non. So, were you able to differentiate when your partner was engulfed and when he feared abandoned and unconsciously sought to sabotage? Is there a way of differentiating the two? Opinions appreciated. 

[Lonely_Astro]

With mine, it seemed that fear of engulfment triggered the fear of abandonment.  What I mean is that when she was talking about all the things she wanted with me, I believe she meant them.  When the time came to execute the plans of what we were talking about, she freaked out.  She freaked out because it was to much pressure to live up to the dream she had created and since she couldn't follow through with that, expected me to leave her because of it.  It was a silly notion, but she's mentally ill.

So.  Basically, she wanted this perfect life with me in a little house with a little fence with little children running around, but when the time grew closer that that life was going to happen, she fled to keep me from doing it first.  Even though I had no intention on doing that (nor would I).  In the end, it was always destined to fail.

It was best described to me that people with BPD live on a seesaw (relationship wise).  On one end of the seesaw is Abandonment, the other Engulfment.  They run from one end of the seesaw to the other at breakneck speeds to try to get it to balance until the seesaw is so back and forth that they jump off of it to get it calm (where as most 'normal' people can balance the seesaw, BPDs can't).  Usually how they do this via triangulation (new r/s).  Once they have one foot on the new seesaw, the "old" one calms a bit but they can't fully trust that seesaw anymore, so it must be "bad".  So, since they can't trust the old seesaw, they jump to the new seesaw because its nice and calm.  It's good.  Then they start running back and forth on the new one.  The process starts all over again.   They are, essentially, trapped in an infinite loop, they just can't see it.

[Alberto]

The engulfment part never made much sense to me, at least in the way it's usually described in the literature. Thinking about it, engulfment in reality seems a consequence of mirroring, they realize they've completely molded in the person they think you want and that defeats the purpose of an all healing love, because they are not themselves anymore, they surrendered to attach.

When we broke up she posted on facebook: "to find yourself you have to lose yourself first", and started modelling and being in a lesbian relationship, but with me, she was this shy, coy girl that worked in a supermarket and hated partying. If you experience a big change in personality after the break up it's probably engulfment.

Fear of abandonment is allways present if you are important enough and I think it shows more as rapidly alternating between being distant and normal.

[C.Stein]

I can't clearly differentiate engulfment and abandonment in my relationship.  I do know when I felt like I was getting much closer to her emotionally she would do something to hurt me/push me away.  I don't know if she was picking up on me getting closer to her or not but it happened.  Could just be coincidence.  She craved that closeness but emotionally was incapable of really achieving it due to a lack of emotional depth.  

Emotional intimacy was very difficult for her.  We did have some truly loving deep moments when we were physically intimate where she appeared to have some real emotional depth.  All the rest of the time she struggled and emotional intimacy for her was doing superficial shallow things.  When it came time for her to really open up, to be emotionally vulnerable and sharing, she couldn't do it for the most part.   Granted I also ceased to be emotionally open as a defense mechanism which is something I regret.   Wish I had taken the time earlier in my life to really understand all this stuff that has become apparent now in the aftermath of this relationship.

Fear of abandonment can be triggered in many ways.  While there are some clear examples of this in my relationship, there are also some very murky ones that I am uncertain about.   I wish she was more cut and dry "borderline" throughout our entire relationship because it would much easier for me to process all this.  I don't know if it just didn't manifest itself that often due to the nature of our relationship or if there is some other explanation.  I can only make inferences to likely behavior due to what I did experience and observe.  It is this reason why I personally have many doubts and probably is a large reason why I have had such a hard time detaching from this woman.

[thisworld]

Lonely_Astro,

Thank you for the see-saw metaphor. I think it's a crystal clear expression of how things work (especially because it involves more than one see-saw.) What may enlightening for me was the speed of this. I think that was certainly the case in my situation. Still, I have a feeling that when actions point at one side of the see-saw, the borderline may actually be on the other side.   

C.Stein,

Your post resonates with me. It was murky for me, too. I believe the ultimate point of recovery is not to worry about it anymore. I hope we all get there soon.

Granted I also ceased to be emotionally open as a defense mechanism which is something I regret.

I regret this, too. But I think, to a degree, this is part and parcel of perfectionism which may turn into something codependent in some relationships. Again, yes, I need to accept that maybe things could have been different and I need to accept this and let go. My healing needs to find a balance between the two. I know that time helps, too.

Still, I'm curious how being emotionally so open would work in terms of interacting with a BPD. It may not have always have the positive outcomes we imagine. I don't know. I'm thinking about asking this in this and other boards actually.

[swimjim]

My ex begged me to marry her but I held off because she appeared so desperate I thought something was not right or "off" about her. She kept pushing the issue for two years. When I finally offered her the ring, she called the police on me.   There is your perfect example of going from abandonment fears to engulfment .

[MapleBob]

My uBPD ex lives in a neighboring country. Our plan all along was that I would move there, but navigating the logistics and legalities of that is obviously a lengthy and complicated process. She badly wanted me to move to her. Badly. And I absolutely wanted to, but it was risky and stressful and taking more time than either of us wanted it to.

That's the background, so here's an abandonment/engulfment example: she laid the pressure on thick for me to move there ASAP (fear of abandonment, because I wasn't around often enough because of the long distance), but then when I asked her if I could move in with her (even temporarily, or conditionally) to speed up/ease at least one part of the immigration process, she literally got up and left the room that we were talking in, and stood silently and shut-down in another room until I came in to talk to her (fear of engulfment, because that change is threatening and risky to her).

[JRT]

My ex begged me to marry her but I held off because she appeared so desperate I thought something was not right or "off" about her. She kept pushing the issue for two years. When I finally offered her the ring, she called the police on me.   There is your perfect example of going from abandonment fears to engulfment .

WOAH! This one really resonated with me. I was beginning to feel all alone in this respect. I was with mine for 2 years. We discussed marriage as a goal almost from the every beginning (we were in our late 40's). She sold her furniture and moved in and we ordered our wedding rings the next weekend. The week after that, she moved out and blocked me from every imaginable to contact her and called the cops/lawyers the couple of times since then that I made an attempt to talk. That was 15 months ago and I have still not spoken to her.

What did yours claim to the police? How did things end up?

Sorry to hijack... .

[SummerStorm]

With mine, it seemed that fear of engulfment triggered the fear of abandonment.  What I mean is that when she was talking about all the things she wanted with me, I believe she meant them.  When the time came to execute the plans of what we were talking about, she freaked out.  She freaked out because it was to much pressure to live up to the dream she had created and since she couldn't follow through with that, expected me to leave her because of it.  It was a silly notion, but she's mentally ill.

So.  Basically, she wanted this perfect life with me in a little house with a little fence with little children running around, but when the time grew closer that that life was going to happen, she fled to keep me from doing it first.  Even though I had no intention on doing that (nor would I).  In the end, it was always destined to fail.

It was best described to me that people with BPD live on a seesaw (relationship wise).  On one end of the seesaw is Abandonment, the other Engulfment.  They run from one end of the seesaw to the other at breakneck speeds to try to get it to balance until the seesaw is so back and forth that they jump off of it to get it calm (where as most 'normal' people can balance the seesaw, BPDs can't).  Usually how they do this via triangulation (new r/s).  Once they have one foot on the new seesaw, the "old" one calms a bit but they can't fully trust that seesaw anymore, so it must be "bad".  So, since they can't trust the old seesaw, they jump to the new seesaw because its nice and calm.  It's good.  Then they start running back and forth on the new one.  The process starts all over again.   They are, essentially, trapped in an infinite loop, they just can't see it.

This is a perfect description of life with my pwBPD.  Honestly, it truly is.

[thisworld]

And do we have a way of differentiating between destructive behaviours that we see after fear of abandonment (sabotaging behaviours) and behaviours that we see after engulfment? How to separate them?

[MapleBob]

And do we have a way of differentiating between destructive behaviours that we see after fear of abandonment (sabotaging behaviours) and behaviours that we see after engulfment? How to separate them?

I think it stands to reason that fear of abandonment leads to sabotage in various forms of "clinging", and fear of engulfment leads to sabotage in various forms of "running". Both of those can be incredibly damaging to a relationship. At the very least it's confusing to us non's!

[thisworld]

That's true. I have read somewhere that fear of abandonment sometimes results in the opposite, so instead of clinging they push before getting pushed. Is this true in your experience or would you be able to distinguish this?

[JRT]

That's true. I have read somewhere that fear of abandonment sometimes results in the opposite, so instead of clinging they push before getting pushed. Is this true in your experience or would you be able to distinguish this?

Mine did EXACTLY that... .

[MapleBob]

That's true. I have read somewhere that fear of abandonment sometimes results in the opposite, so instead of clinging they push before getting pushed. Is this true in your experience or would you be able to distinguish this?

That IS true, but I still think that's secretly fear of engulfment. It's: "I'm getting too caught up in this, this is getting too important to me, it demands vulnerability and accountability that I'm not used to, I've gotta get out of this! Before I ruin it and get left and then I'm the bad one!"

[movingon123]

Mine would push away, then feel sad and want to reconnect (the abandonment that they caused); a few weeks would go by, and they would start to feel engulfed and accuse me of invading their lives (they introduced me to their friends who liked me, would go to events/parties together) and then the cycle would perpetuate.

After a few cycles of this they acknowledged that they just wanted space during that, and it would be my responsibility to ask "are you needing space right now?" when they started the push. Of course it didn't last, but they were aware that the push wasn't necessarily rational.

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex has more dominant engulfment fears than abandonment.  Abandonment is something he seems to be able to face, but engulfment, not at all.  After almost five months of claiming I'm a stalker, he has shown up again at parties, expecting me to chase him.  I've been avoiding him and letting him know indirectly that I'm dating someone else.  I think it makes him angry that I'm not reacting to him at all.  His latest tactic?  I believe he is faking a replacement!

Engulfment is a reaction to responsibility, while abandonment is a reaction to others' arbitrary judgment.  Engulfment literally makes someone repulsed by their partner, while abandonment makes them believe that their partner is capable of evil.  My ex is allergic to responsibility of any kind.

[thisworld]

Engulfment is a reaction to responsibility, while abandonment is a reaction to others' arbitrary judgment.  .

Thank you so much for this GEM.

We got rid of the kids. The cat was allergic  

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think you can tell the difference in your partner's behavior by what it is they are avoiding.  If they are escaping responsibility, then it's engulfment.  If they are escaping rejection, criticism, cheating, etc. then it's abandonment.

My ex went on vacation without me with some other single women.  This really bothered me.  He kept defending that he should be able to do what he wants with his friends.  It was a clear case of engulfment.  He didn't like having a responsibility that cramped his style and made him feel guilty for doing what he wanted.

Other times he would make me reassure him that I saw good qualities in him and thought he was a good person.  If he would have left me during one of these conversations, I'd've chalked it up to abandonment fears.

[thisworld]

Thank you for the example. This is what I am unable to understand. Cannot get my head around it: How do we know that something happened and that triggered his fear of abandonment, which pushed him to go on a holiday with these girls to destroy the relationship through sabotaging his own need of closeness?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Thank you for the example. This is what I am unable to understand. Cannot get my head around it: How do we know that something happened and that triggered his fear of abandonment, which pushed him to go on a holiday with these girls to destroy the relationship through sabotaging his own need of closeness?

I'm pretty sure this wasn't abandonment and he wasn't looking for a replacement.  He kept going on and on about how much he'd miss me, and the night before he left was probably the most romantic evening we ever spent together.  It was as if he just *couldn't* capitulate to what I wanted; he had to do his own thing to prove something to himself.  I have a goal to visit all 50 states, and to add insult to injury, he went to one of the states I hadn't visited yet!  He kept talking about how he *deserved* to do some things that I hadn't done.  Something about the idea of me wanting to come along, or him inviting me, just made him feel claustrophobic, so he ended up using the situation as a test for our relationship to see if we could spend time apart without me going crazy.  He kept going on and on about how going on vacation without one another was "healthy" and even announced his intention to do it again.  He pushed it too far.  The whole thing was about his need to have a self apart from me, hence engulfment.

[troisette]

It's a difficult question to answer because healthy couples have differing ideas of how much closeness and how many degrees of separation in their relationship is good for them. Some lead lives with many individual pursuits with little overlap, some have shared pursuits, some have entwined lives. Yet if they are with the right partner, they can all be happy. So someone's idea of engulfment/abandonment can be someone else's perfect and healthy relationship.

Abandonment/engulfment in BPDs confuses me too. My ex and I agreed that neither of us wanted to live together, but a couple of months in, a great house came on the market and he suggested that we buy it together. (Luckily it was sold.)  Paradoxically, he always maintained a higher level of separation than I wanted but not by much. We both valued our independence.

But I noticed that whenever we were having a great time, really bonding, he would do something to trigger disagreement, giving him, or me, reason to slightly move away, giving space. He is in his sixties and I was told that by his age, BPDs can develop defence mechanisms after a lifetime of repeating relationship cycles. This is sometimes misinterpreted as BPD symptoms getting better with age. They don't. He just developed skills to disguise periods of extreme disassociation, cognitive dissonance, b&w thinking etc. One way of doing this was to go away a lot, either on his own or visiting people, so he was never in the company of the same people for an extended period of time. In private, and close-up, the indicators were apparent.

So he handled engulfment in a way which was not obviously noticeable and tried to avoid abandonment by not separating off from former girlfriends, making them friends instead. Devaluing those who would not comply. Former employers too.

It's an interesting thread, good comments about something that I'd like to know more about. 

[C.Stein]

He is in his sixties and I was told that by his age, BPDs can develop defence mechanisms after a lifetime of repeating relationship cycles. This is sometimes misinterpreted as BPD symptoms getting better with age. They don't. He just developed skills to disguise periods of extreme disassociation, cognitive dissonance, b&w thinking etc.

I believe my ex was the same.  She will freely admit she was a mess earlier in her life, but has gotten better.  What I think "better" means is she has learned how to cope with the BPD and how to more successfully hide it from her partners.  But as you said, once you get closer to them it becomes harder and harder to hide that side of themselves.  The mask develops cracks and eventually it falls apart and you see their true selves.  The important thing here is the mask isn't just for you and everyone else, the mask is also for themselves, at least it was for my ex.  She wants/needs to believe she is something other than what she is.  When her mask shattered with me I think that started the devaluation stage because she knew (consciously or not) that I had seen a side of her that she despises.

[troisette]

Absolutely C.Stein. Our first and only real argument resulted in him having a mini-fit. Burying his head in the sofa. I put my arms around him and said "it's okay, you're safe". He pushed me away and said "I'm not... ." and that was the beginning of the end. He didn't like me seeing his vulnerability when under stress.

He also told me that he was happy with his selfishness, that he enjoyed his periods of euphoric disassociation - avoiding mention of memory disassociation, that he needed lots of time on his own, insistent that life is black and white. He was trying to make these aspects of his personality okay for himself.

One thing I only recently think I understand was his enjoyment of old b&w Westerns. I've just realised that the characterisation is also usually black and white. Goodies and baddies, so no problems dealing with shades of grey.

He hadn't had a relationship for five years prior to ours. I'm pretty sure it was because he knew his history.

[Tomzxz]

Given that the disorder is on the spectrum, engulfment and abandonment can manifest in many ways depending on the person's maturity level, experience and attachment style of their partner. Two avoidant people might prolong a relationship where as two dependents might accelerate it's failure.  The BPD's unintentionally harmful way of dealing with engulfment and abandonment is push pull but sometimes push pull appears to be the intentional abusive power struggle of a narcissist.  I think my ex applied push pull for both. It's very hard for me to discern one from another in my ex and if someone can help differentiate the two I would appreciate it.  For the sake of this discussion, I will describe my ex's behavior in how it applied to her engulfment and abandonment fears.

After the breakup, what I saw as my ex being disingenuous was actually her mirroring me out of fear of being alone/abandoned. She changed parts of herself so I would be attached to her at a time when she was very lonely. This didn't last of course and about six months in I could tell something wasn't adding up when she would get clingy (abandonment).  Fast forward a year I found her on the bathroom floor of our new house holding herself in a fetal position - Her concern was a loss of autonomy (engulfment).  A few months after that she said we don't talk like we used too (abandonment). Fast forward six more months - shortly after the proposal she began to distance herself in the relationship claiming she needed "external validation"(engulfment).  All the while she was pushing the timetable of our relationship equally though I see now this might have been her mirroring me.

I know that her engulfment fears were fully triggered by the proposal (something she hinted at wanting) and it was too late to go back.  I found a letter that she was writing to a former lover where she said that she feels like she has to be "smaller in all of her relationships".  I would say that was a big engulfment fear red flag.  After the break she told me that "everyone ALWAYS leaves or dies on her" (abandonment fear).  She posted on FB a few months later that "She can still love someone but cant live with them when she can no longer be someone she isn't" (engulfment fear). Her abandonment and engulfment fears were apparently non stop but seeing that she was middle age, she was able to hide the day to day push pull very well but it was the bigger picture she couldn't handle. Her fake it till you make it approach to relationships works for a little while but eventually sabotaged any hope of establishing her own self in an adult relationship.  Looking back, I can see that she was on the preverbal seesaw the whole time (great analogy by the way).

It was her higher functioning level that made it "feel" like we had a somewhat normal relationship and what makes it so hard for me to detach from this woman.  If the seesaw was more pronounced, I would have been out much sooner. Now that I am out, I can see that even her higher functioning behavior wasn't normal at all.  There were many times were I can remember when she was dealing with emotional dysregulation and most of our time together was on her terms.  And yet I was labeled the controlling one despite my walking on eggshells.  I can see that her mirroring me could feel like I was controlling her but this was her choice and it's very sad that she doesn't see it this for it is the root problem of her condition.

What is even sadder is without mirroring the good of someone else, she doesn't really have much of a chance of attracting a nice partner because she is actually quite obnoxious, self centered, intense, sarcastic and hateful. In spite of this, I loved all of her and it's very sad that she pushes the very people that love her away without seeing the problem.

All of her relationships, be it friend, family or lover, are wash, rinse and repeat... .Victim.

I feel bad that I was yet another cycle for her so it's hard for me to let go. I tell myself that she is mentally ill and it's not my problem anymore but even this doesn't hold back the daily flood of emotions from our trauma bond that had to end.  I'm working on my own issues now. I wish I could say the same for her but just the other day a friend told me that she complemented on how my ex was dressed at work.  My ex's response to the complement was, "well, I don't have a man"... .

[thisworld]

That's true. I have read somewhere that fear of abandonment sometimes results in the opposite, so instead of clinging they push before getting pushed. Is this true in your experience or would you be able to distinguish this?

Mine did EXACTLY that... .

JRT, I have a feeling that this happened to me sometimes, too. Then how do you know that this wasn't engulfment but abandonment? Can you give us an example?

[swimjim]

My ex begged me to marry her but I held off because she appeared so desperate I thought something was not right or "off" about her. She kept pushing the issue for two years. When I finally offered her the ring, she called the police on me.   There is your perfect example of going from abandonment fears to engulfment .

WOAH! This one really resonated with me. I was beginning to feel all alone in this respect. I was with mine for 2 years. We discussed marriage as a goal almost from the every beginning (we were in our late 40's). She sold her furniture and moved in and we ordered our wedding rings the next weekend. The week after that, she moved out and blocked me from every imaginable to contact her and called the cops/lawyers the couple of times since then that I made an attempt to talk. That was 15 months ago and I have still not spoken to her.

What did yours claim to the police? How did things end up?

Sorry to hijack... .

After my ex called the police on me, I never spoke to her again. But that did not stop her from kicking me while I was down. Even thou I left her alone, She filed a false restraining order. It was thrown out in court 3 months later. During that time, she had filed for bankruptcy. Now I know why she was desperate to get married. She is now married. Sadly, I still think about her 3 years later. :'(

[JRT]

That's true. I have read somewhere that fear of abandonment sometimes results in the opposite, so instead of clinging they push before getting pushed. Is this true in your experience or would you be able to distinguish this?

Mine did EXACTLY that... .

JRT, I have a feeling that this happened to me sometimes, too. Then how do you know that this wasn't engulfment but abandonment? Can you give us an example?

I suspect that it WAS engulfment. There were no complaints... .we NEVER argued... .we were living a storybook romance... .the times that we felt the closest were times that led to a recycle... .the final breakup came after she sold her furniture and moved into my home and we began to plan our wedding (it was only a week prior to the breakup that we ordered our wedding rings), and so on and so on: these were not signals of abandonment by any measure; our lives were becoming closer for certain.

In the end, she moved out when I was away on business and notified me that "our relationship is over... .I have moved out... .don't try to contact me' and blocked me from every conceivable way to contact her. That was in late September of 2014 and although I have not spoken with her at all since then.

[JRT]

My ex begged me to marry her but I held off because she appeared so desperate I thought something was not right or "off" about her. She kept pushing the issue for two years. When I finally offered her the ring, she called the police on me.   There is your perfect example of going from abandonment fears to engulfment .

WOAH! This one really resonated with me. I was beginning to feel all alone in this respect. I was with mine for 2 years. We discussed marriage as a goal almost from the every beginning (we were in our late 40's). She sold her furniture and moved in and we ordered our wedding rings the next weekend. The week after that, she moved out and blocked me from every imaginable to contact her and called the cops/lawyers the couple of times since then that I made an attempt to talk. That was 15 months ago and I have still not spoken to her.

What did yours claim to the police? How did things end up?

Sorry to hijack... .

After my ex called the police on me, I never spoke to her again. But that did not stop her from kicking me while I was down. Even thou I left her alone, She filed a false restraining order. It was thrown out in court 3 months later. During that time, she had filed for bankruptcy. Now I know why she was desperate to get married. She is now married. Sadly, I still think about her 3 years later. :'(

Sorry to hear about that SJ... .I am also involved in a case with my ex to return the engagement ring and other property. It started in small claims and is now escalating to involve attorneys and a trial. Interestingly, she has predicated her entire case upon 'harassment' (even though I have not attempted to contact her at all) which is a bizarre defense for a property case. Attempts to resolve the case short of a trial have been refused by her and her attorney. 

[thisworld]

Thank you JRT. I'm sorry that you had to go through all of that.  I can only wish us a good healing really.

[JRT]

Thank you JRT. I'm sorry that you had to go through all of that.  I can only wish us a good healing really.

Thanks! It still hurts, especially after days like today. In one of the interrogatories it was claimed that I 'verbally abused her throughout the relationship'. Its hurts to see this knowing that, although I was not a doormat by any measure, I was respectful and loving to her... .very patient and understanding. I have moved on and am in a committed relationship but seeing stuff like this really bites since I gave very deeply to her from my heart. It simply blows my mind that this is something that she could believe about our relationship; there was not even an incident of this!