A break from the negativity

[maxsterling]

I took the day off yesterday to hopefully recover some from a nagging cold.  W is out of school for the holidays, and I agreed to help her clean and organize her classroom.  From the time we woke up, it was 100% complaining and negativity from W.  I could sense the dysregulation brewing. 

By the middle of the day, it was the same rant - how she hates it here, has no friends, hates her job, I am never available for her, how she is going to leave me... .meanwhile she's mad because I said I would mail out the holiday cards, and that i still didn't have them done after "hours and hours".  I corrected her - it was not "hours and hours" it was 5 minutes here and there amongst 4 hours of listening to her ranting and complaining.  I tried to go into the spare room with the door closed to work, but could not string together a consecutive 2-minute block without her coming in with another screaming rant or complaint.  She went about doing all the other things that she apparently wanted me to do, all the while screaming, slamming things, and throwing things.  And when it was all over, I was out to my workshop to gather tools to fix the coat rack that somehow fell off the wall an the pet's cage that was somehow broken.  W insisted she did not break anything, yet later was complaining that her hand was swollen and bruised... .

Gads.  Then I went to my second job last evening, W threw another rant about that, did the guilt trip about how she has nothing to eat, etc, etc.  What a crappy day.  I think I may have to quit the second job, asap.  I just can't handle the stress anymore, and I am starting to believe W is completely incapable of being alone. 

This morning, she went back to her classroom to work at cleaning, but today I did not go with her. I am sure she wanted me to go, but I really need the space today.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sweetheart]

max are you considering giving up your second job because your w can't be on her own, or because your stress levels are so high?

what can you take away from yesterday that will help you when this happens again? what could you have done differently?

[Sunfl0wer]

I am having trouble following your problem solving process Max.

It sounds like W has unstructured extra time on hands.

You took the day off work and spent it trying to help and support her.

She spent the time screaming and likely broke things and hurt herself in the process.

Your W was not alone when this behavior happened.  She proved to be capable of breaking things and causing self harm while you were home with her.

Based on this interaction, I am not sure your conclusion makes sense. 

What are you hoping for?

You admit that you were stressed being home with her.  It sounds like the second job has been valuable to your own state of mind in helping stay strong in the face of such challenges.

I wonder how she will fair today on her own without you to vent at.

[Notwendy]

The idea of quitting your second job and your wife not being able to be left alone jumped out at me too.

The one way to be certain that she will need you all the time is to be there with her all the time.

People with BPD have trouble modulating their own emotions. Having a caretaker/helper person there all the time so they can project their negative feelings outward, and also helping them do so by being there can make them feel better and also lead to them being dependent ok that person. When left alone - they have no experience handling their feelings on their own and so they do have a difficult time when left alone.

I believe that if you quit the job to be there for her, that is one more step to not being able to leave her alone.

My father made sure he did all he could to keep my mother from feeling discomfort. After he retired he was there all the time for her. We believed that she would not cope after he was gone, but neither were we willing to be there all the time. We expected her to fall apart. To our surprise - she has done remarkably well on her own. Before this, she didn't have to. It makes me wonder who needed to help her more- him or her. Think about this before you quit.

[ColdEthyl]

Max,

Every time you post, I want to hug you so hard. From what I see, you try and try and try, and you end up exhausted, spinning your wheels, and just thrown down in the dumps. This is because it's ONLY you trying.

I'm so sorry to heart about this. Is she still in therapy? On meds? I can't recall if you guys are doing MC together or not.

[F50Lurker]

I agree with ColdEthyl.  I see how hard you are trying and not getting anywhere.  I'm so sorry you're not seeing the progress you deserve.

[Notwendy]

I am sorry that it is this difficult too. She may express a constant need for Max's help and so is not likely to consider that Max needs time for himself. She wants what she wants. Max needs to have boundaries on his "self" time. It's his need and an important one. Self care is essential and especially so when in a relationship with a high need person.

A job has natural boundaries - boundaries that are easier to enforce than taking time for oneself. It is easier to uphold "I need to be at work" than "I want time to myself as that can be interpreted personally. This does not mean the job boundaries won't be tested- they will - but it is less emotional to maintain them.

The second job has more benefits than financial. Max has time away from his wife's demands. He has a social outlet with co- workers, and the income helps. Also, when he is at work, his wife is learning to cope on her own. When someone is facing uncomfortable feelings -the tendency is to take a quick fix- drugs, alcohol, or calling someone to help now. Without these fixers- a person can gain self soothing skills. They would not gain these with a constantly available helper.

[maxsterling]

Thanks everyone.  I decided to think a while longer before quitting the second job.   My reason for quitting is basically because I feel exhausted from enforcing a boundary and nothing changing.  But a few things during my last shift inspired me to think things through more. 

Last night I had a horrible, horrible dream:  W and I went to a fertility clinic for IVF, and W dysregulated because the fertility doctor was a man.  She then became violent and tried to hurt herself so they called in all the nurses and staff to try and calm her.  They would not let me in.  When I did make it into the room, W was completely hysterical.  I tried to calm her, and the clinic staff told me I was not helping and was only enabling her.  W continued to be violent so they called police.   

[Notwendy]

My reason for quitting is basically because I feel exhausted from enforcing a boundary and nothing changing.

And what do you predict can happen to her behavior if you stop enforcing a boundary because she wears you down with her behavior? What happens the next time you want to enforce such a boundary? Will her behavior be increased or decreased?

If you allow her behavior you get you to back down on a boundary, what you teach her is that this behavior works. When you try to enforce another boundary, she will use this same behavior, because it works. You are teaching her that she is able to get you to back down by using the behavior that works for her.

If you enforce the boundary no matter what, then her behavior will persist, and maybe even escalate for a while? Why? because, well it has worked for her for about 40 years- probably with her family, other relationships and with you. It takes a while to learn that something that has worked for 40 years isn't working now, but the only way to learn this, is that it doesn't work.

What makes the second job a good opportunity to practice upholding your boundaries is that a job is less negotiable than taking personal time. I would suspect that personal time would invoke even more of the behaviors that wear you down as there isn't a neutral boundary like a job to uphold. It is easier for her to break you down on that one. The job is a good one to practice on. However, if she learns that her behavior works, it is not likely she is going to do anything different the next time you enforce a boundary.

If you want to see any kind of change, then you need to not repeat your behaviors of reinforcing hers. If she realizes her behavior doesn't work, then she may try different ones, perhaps eventually learning that your boundaries are boundaries.

One issue that makes you vulnerable is the fear of self harm. One way for you to alleviate your fear is to be with her 24/7 and watch her all the time. Doing anything else is going to create that possibility and make you fearful. It is unfortunate to be in such a situation, and nobody would wish to have a loved one do something like that. However, the threat of self harm is a very powerful tool to control others as well. How to know what is a real threat and what is not is probably impossible.

It is difficult, but your choices are to give up your wish to have time to yourself in order to be with her as much as possible, or to take the time you need and deal with the fear. In the great scheme of thing, if someone is a real danger to themselves, then they need to be under medical supervision. if you are threatened, or truly fearful, then calling 911 is also a choice you can make.

[maxsterling]

You are exactly right, Wendy.  And that is why I no longer see quitting is as a healthy option unless I am quitting truly for me and me alone, and am prepared to enforce some other kind of personal time boundary.  Quitting will make things better for a few weeks, maybe, but in the long run will make things worse.  The reality is, if W can't find a way to self-entertain at least some of the time, there is no way this relationship can last in the long term. 

I really appreciate all of you listening.  Sometimes I really don't have the energy to think about this anymore.  If I think logically, I clearly see that my W is very serious BPD.  Her attempts at helping herself are beyond what many pwBPD ever do, but yet they are still half-assed.  I wonder if she truly wants to feel better, or losing that "victim card" is something she just can't do. 

Last night while I was at work she spent the whole evening planning for next semester.  A few months ago, I would have seen that as a good thing.  But she obsessed over it, and later remarked that she only did it because she had nothing else to do. She then made a negative passive aggressive comment that she is going to spend her whole break working, because her life is too boring (implying that I have not made plans to do anything exciting with her).  I'm frustrated because I see her make no serious attempts to socialize on her own or do things she likes to do. 

[Sunfl0wer]

My reason for quitting is basically because I feel exhausted from enforcing a boundary and nothing changing.

Maybe I am not exactly understanding which boundary you are referring to... .

However, it is my understanding that you took the second job partly to get some space and self care without having to explain yourself.  The boundary of taking space by working appears to have been very successful for that, no? 

I think boundaries are not for changing the other person, but for caring for yourself. 

My understanding of the job was your way of 'putting on your oxygen mask first.'  Therefore I worry about losing that source of oxygen that you need and how that would affect all.

From what I hear... .your wife's current distress is likely due to having more time on her hands due to holiday break.  At my own T session yesterday the poor guy expressed his distress to me over folks really coming undone this time of year and how taxing it is in his line of work... .the holiday's are his hardest time.  I wonder if you think your W current state is temporary and when school is back in session she will be more back to the way she was last month? 

Maybe there is volunteer work your W can do at a local animal shelter, homeless shelter, food pantry or such?  A place where her contributions will be valued during this down time?

[maxsterling]

I feel so completely exhausted and defeated today.  I'm grateful to be at my work desk, although I admit I am having a difficult time being productive.

As I think I mentioned, one of the gifts W and I are giving to others this year are framed photos from our wedding.  That required us to sit and look through the photos together.  W's comments were 100% negative during the process - hate the photographer, hate her dress, looks to fat, etc, etc.  Completely exhausting for me to listen to.  We (she) chose a handful of photos that were acceptable.  I printed up small, cropped versions of one of those photos to put into ornaments for my family members.  Done, over with, W doesn't have to do anything more for those gifts (something she complained about - feeling responsible for gifts for my family).  Last night W saw the tiny ornaments, then told me she hated the photo, asked me why I used that photo, and told me she felt like re-doing them.  :'(  I wasn't mad or angry; I felt completely heartbroken.  I mean terrible, punched in the chest heartbroken.  To get some space, I told W that I needed to take a shower to wash my hair.  I sat on the floor of the bathtub with the water running, and just cried for a few minutes.

[Sunfl0wer]

That's rough!

Supportive, hugs of strength to get through this:

 

[Icthelight]

(implying that I have not made plans to do anything exciting with her). 

I know for me, not rocking the boat and keeping the peace is usually my primary goal with my uBPDw. That has meant that I many times refrain from engaging her or doing/suggesting spontaneous things/outings because I either don't have the energy to deal with her or I don't want to risk "rocking the boat."

The fact is, BPD or not, my wife still wants to be romanced, wants to feel special, wants to feel loved. She wants to go out and do fun things with me. I understand for pwBPD, not feeling loved and wanted is what they normally feel/believe, that's their default system. Attempting to fill this need usually falls short and takes a lot of effort. Also, for me, I have so many hurt feelings and feel resentment towards my w, that I don't want to do things with her. This has been an unhealthy vicious cycle for me that I'm trying to break. The reality is that my wife says she wants to do those things and that I don't initiate or make the effort to do them, but when I do, it's not the right time, something is hurting her or she's not up to it. I'm trying to understand this cycle and trying to make it better.

Max, it sounds like you're completely wiped out and running on empty. I'm feeling you man. Keep putting that oxygen mask on and keep working on your own self care. Hopefully this will give you the energy to continue to deal with your wife.

Are you going on dates with her? Do you have a date night during the week? Are you two doing/attempting any fun outings? Date nights may be the furthest thing from your mind right now, but to have a healthy marriage, spending quality time with your spouse is usually a must. I know, the key term is "healthy marriage." Maybe date nights and fun outings are not something you can do right now with your wife, but maybe something you both can work towards.

[Notwendy]

Max, I feel for you, especially since I watched my father cope with some similar situations. Yet there was no way that anything I said or suggested would make a difference for him. Any difference had to come from him. In a way, your posts have given me some insight into how it was for him and I also have compassion for you.

I also watched him oscillate between considering leaving and staying. But when it came down to it- he chose to stay. I know that part of the decision was us kids but even after we were grown he did not want to leave.

This is the staying board- and I know better than to even consider your choice either way, not because it is board guidelines but because I know that the bond between people in relationships is complicated and firm. I could not begin to understand it even in my own parents.

From your posts you also oscillate between saying that the relationship can not continue as it is, and the next post you are considering IVF. I don't think any of these posts are wrong. The decision is yours alone. I understand the ambivalence as well as the conflicting feelings. I was powerless to offer any advice to my parents and feel as powerless to offer it to you.

I wonder how much the ambivalence is contributing to you feeling overwhelmed and wondering what direction to take. I also wonder if any other posters can offer wisdom here. I do think self care is important here and that it is good for you to do that.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thinking of something helpful to offer... .

Remind yourself that what is happening is temporary.  

(It seems this recent stress is from school break... .too much down time for W+holiday).

This will pass.  

I think it is very easy to slip into negative thinking when things are feeling so negative.  Remind yourself that your perspective may be a little more negative at this moment due to acute depression.  

Now is not the time to make major decisions.  Relieve yourself from any stressful thoughts that you must decide on any important matters this week.  (Such as work, IVF, etc). _{(Unless of course some urgent health matter happens)}.

Get your oxygen mask on.. I don't know what this means for you.  Maybe others who know your history more can remind you of simple, easy things that have helped you in the past.  Things that you can do today and in the next couple of days.

It sounds like you have enough on your plate to process.  Let yourself off the hook this week.  Simplify your expectations of yourself to simply breathing in some oxygen.

Edit:  When I feel this way... . The main priority is to give myself permission to be kind to myself above all other things.

[maxsterling]

And yesterday I went home to the serious dysregulation that I sensed brewing the past week or so.  It involved the same old rants from her end, and ended in her throwing things at me and me leaving the house for a bit.   After I came back, I let her cry and rant and talk for awhile.  I think the real reason for the dysregulation is that she knows she is depressed, she knows she is her own cause, and when her T and her AA sponsor suggested things for her to do that would be constructive, W became resentful.  Things are better this morning, although I feel so completely exhausted.  I had another horrible dream last night, and this morning I had to fix the washing machine. 

At one point last night, I remembered I still have an unserved order of protection hidden in the trunk of my car.  The friends that had been my "safe house" have moved out of state.  I think I need to find another "safe house", just in case. 

Reality is, something needs to change about my wife's life ASAP or she will be back in the hospital.  That change has to come from her.  I know it, her T knows it, and most of all W knows it.  I think last night's dysregulation was about W simply refusing to accept it is up to her to change. 

[Notwendy]

Could it be that the kindest, most caring thing to do is to step away and let it happen? Let your W feel so low that she is motivated to get the care she needs, or to come unglued to the point that she is hospitalized and gets the care she needs?

Could it be that your caring, protecting, soothing, helping is preventing this from happening? You love her, but you are not a health care professional  and even if you were, you would not be able to provide care for a family member?

I don't have the answer to these questions, but it is something to consider?

[maxsterling]

you know wendy, I asked myself that last night.  I wondered what would happen if I just drove to my parents house early last night and stayed for a few days.  My conclusion is that she would try to kill herself and be in the hospital.  Then I asked myself if that was such a bad thing.  I was probably 40% considering staying away and letting it happen, and 60% in favor of going home.  I am not sure what compelled me to go home.  Part of it was making sure the pets were okay. 

[Notwendy]

We have considered this with my mother. I can only imagine how terrified my father was of the threat of suicide. It could be one reason why he was so insistent on us kids making her happy and not stressed as much as possible and being angry at us if we upset her at all. We were vaguely aware of at least one attempt, but we were sent off to relative's houses and nobody spoke of them.


We worried about this after dad was gone but none of us was willing to be her caretaker. Also, none of us live close enough to get to her immediately. Our conclusion is that we would have to call 911. She thankfully has not done this, but part of that could be that she knows that we could not come running to her.

I don't know all the reasons. She is mentally ill. However, she is also a lot more capable than we ever imagined she would be. I have wondered how much is chicken and egg. How much did we enable her helplessness?

Its a question for you to also figure out. Could your wife take care of the pets without you? Are the pets safe with her? If the pets are not safe, should they be there? Would you be freer to establish boundaries if they were not there?

I love animals and am not suggesting that you get rid of a beloved pet, but this is something to think about for the future and also for your motives. Also, is it an excuse? In rare moments, we would ask Dad why he didn't leave Mom, and his answer was "because of us" . When we grew up, he didn't leave. This is because we were not the reason for him to come home, and neither would the pets be.  He stayed because my mother is his number one concern.

A co-dependents we tend to justify our choices - they could be "for the kids" or "for the pets" but they are our choices. I am not making them good or bad. My parents relationship is not my business to judge, nor is yours, but I think it is important to know our own choices.

[maxsterling]

I don't know all the reasons. She is mentally ill. However, she is also a lot more capable than we ever imagined she would be. I have wondered how much is chicken and egg. How much did we enable her helplessness?

Interesting you mention this.  During last night's dysregulation, my wife mentioned that she would rather be alone than married to a man who is always busy and working.  I don't remember her exact words, but I gathered that she was telling me that if she was alone, she thinks she could scrape by.

I think that is true.  When she was alone, she did what it took to get her needs met - barely - although I think the chickens were starting to come home to roost.  She's satisfy her anxieties and depression through drugs, sleeping around, spending money recklessly, and travelling.  None of those are possible in a committed relationship.  If we were to split up, it would probably be really rough on W for a period of 6 months to a few years, but eventually I think she would keep going the way she used to.  But I think just being in a relationship she doesn't want to do the things to take care of herself. If I don't do those things for her, she feels it would be easier to not be in the relationship at all. 

[Notwendy]

I wouldn't put too much weight onto what your W says about being alone, especially if it was during a dysregulation. There is a tendency for pw BPD to think that something is better than it is. For the record, my mother  talked about leaving my dad more than he ever said anything about her. She said all kinds of things when she was dysregulating that she didn't mean, or possibly remember. That may have just been what she felt in the moment. If my father said it, it was in a moment of exasperation. Neither of them meant it.

As you have said, if your W was alone, she would resort to other behaviors that address her anxiety, none of them healthy ones.

My mother's choice is probably not to be alone. There just is not someone else willing to step up to being the kind of caretaker that she would want. When I said that she is more capable than we thought she is, I did not mean that she was mentally OK or not coping with unhealthy behaviors. In fact, being alone has enabled her to do these behaviors in private. I have hesitated to elaborate, but I believe she too is self medicating. She thinks we don't know, but we do. Although I have addressed this with her doctor, even that is intruding. I really just wanted him to know that I know and am not willing to enable it. My father forbid us to talk about it.

She also is not entirely without help, as she is elderly, but she is alone a lot and lives alone. Dad saved enough for her to do this. However, what we observed is something similar to your situation- if he was out she would call him constantly. If he was trying to do something at home she would interrupt him constantly to do things for her. If I am there, she sometimes literally crawls into bed and asks me to do everything for her- grocery shop, prepare meals. So, we were concerned that she would not be able to do anything for herself.

But she can. She can get groceries delivered, she can fix herself something to eat, do her laundry, call friends or a cab for a ride. In fact, she is very socially active and has many friends. She has surprised us, however, we know better than to think that all is OK.

What does this mean for us? Only that we have to examine our own behaviors and choices. They are not easy ones but they are the best we can do at the time. My goal is to be as emotionally healthy as I can so that I can also relate to others, including my mother, in an emotionally healthy way Same for you Max. Your part in this is to look at yourself and your choices. They are not easy choices but we do the best we can with what we have.

[maxsterling]

When I go to alanon meetings, we talk about not doing for others what they can do for themselves.  We say that if we stop taking on others' responsibilities, the addict will be forced to take care of him/herself.  I've met many situations where that is true.  Parent/spouse quits enabling the addict, addict hits rock bottom and eventually becomes self-reliant.  My wife no longer abuses alcohol or drugs, and hasn't for 12 years.  Yet, from experience, I know that if I am not home to cook, she will not eat.  Or she will eat a bag of junk food.  She won't even go out to get something to eat on her own.  At times, I have tried to push that responsibility onto her hoping she will grab it.  Yet, nothing.  If I am out in the evening, I will come home and ask her what she ate, and she will say "cheese and ice cream."  I truly believe that she is not capable of taking care of her needs except what is absolutely necessary.

If I objectively look at her past 12 years (the sober ones) and what she has told me about them, it blows my mind that she is still alive.  And the intoxicated years?  A true miracle.  I've had to radically accept that in this r/s I am going to be doing much more than 50% of the work.  But still, it would be nice if at least once in awhile I could go away on a business trip and it not have W make a big deal about not having anything to eat. 

In other news, we are travelling with her dad and stepmom to my parents' house for Christmas.  Having her dad with us is a HUGE stress relief for me, because I was dreading that car ride alone with her anxiety.  It also means we won't be staying long, another huge stress relief.  Having W in a bad mood at my parents house is more stress than the bad mood at home.   

Also, on the IVF topic, we contacted another clinic.  This was my doing.  I found another clinic that is less expensive, and would offer a second opinion.  My hope was that a second opinion would help W think more realistically about this whole process.  She seems to refuse to read or believe what the first doctor told us.  So, the second clinic called her today, and was honest with her, and pretty much confirmed what the first doctor said - that for any 40 year old woman, a 20% chance is about the best he can do.  I am hoping that when we actually sit down with the new doctor, he will be very blunt.  I think this has W feeling a bit down. 

[Notwendy]

What if you could let go of her eating? It's actually you that is making yourself responsible for what she eats. She's an adult. She can make a big deal about not eating when you are not there, and hand that over to you, but you don't have to take it on.

She's not a child Max. Choosing what to eat is an adult responsibility. Parents eventually hand that one over to kids as the kids get older. They have no control over what a child eats at a friends house and virtually no control once that kid goes to college or leaves home.

How do kids learn? I remember how I did. I ate too much junk, in college. Then, I felt bad and knew that when I ate junk, I felt that way. How will your W learn if you don't let her?

Do you worry about what your parents eat? Your neighbor? No, because they are adults. It is not your job to be responsible for what an adult eats.

Taking responsibility for her eating is your choice Max, and you can let it go.

[sweetheart]

Reading your posts max it is apparent to me that you are very much trapped by FOG.

So much so that you are at the very edges of your emotional limits considering a new 'safe house' to protect yourself from your w's continuing dysregulations, whilst simultaneously pursuing IVF and putting your wife's care needs above your own.

Here is a link https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog it is interesting because it uses a food analogy to look at issues around control.

Max is there a pattern of you enabling through caretaking from your FOO, is it a pattern you are familiar with ? Im not asking you to answer here, I'm asking you to think about it to help you with where you are within yourself.

[Grey Kitty]

 My reason for quitting is basically because I feel exhausted from enforcing a boundary and nothing changing. 

I think others have said it... .but you enforce boundaries to protect yourself from bad behavior.

NOT to change the bad behavior!

[ColdEthyl]

Reading your posts max it is apparent to me that you are very much trapped by FOG.

So much so that you are at the very edges of your emotional limits considering a new 'safe house' to protect yourself from your w's continuing dysregulations, whilst simultaneously pursuing IVF and putting your wife's care needs above your own.

Here is a link https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog it is interesting because it uses a food analogy to look at issues around control.

Max is there a pattern of you enabling through caretaking from your FOO, is it a pattern you are familiar with ? Im not asking you to answer here, I'm asking you to think about it to help you with where you are within yourself.

"Sufferers - Eat the food I cooked for you. I needed it for myself. I wonder what will happen now.  Sufferers are blamers and guilters who expect us to figure out what they want and ensure that they get it. Sufferers take the position that if they feel miserable, sick, unhappy, or are just plain unlucky, we are expected to help them – even if they haven’t told us how. They let us know, in no uncertain terms, that if we don’t help, they will suffer, and it will be our fault. Sufferers are pre-occupied with how awful they feel, and often they interpret our inability to read their minds as proof that we don’t care enough about them."

Man... .that one hits me hard. @Max, how are you doing today?

[maxsterling]

I'll start a new thread about Christmas... .