help me with handling this social site situtation

[Daniell85]

I haven't been posting very much, as not much has been going on with me and my boyfriend. For convenience I am calling him boyfriend at this point, due to all of the separations we are having over his unwillingness to own his past cheating behavior, the sudden revelation of a terminated pregnancy with the OW, and him not taking steps to restore trust between us. He wants to rug sweep it and pretend it didn't happen, while I am beyond crushed. ( so I could call him something else, but it's not polite   )

We had a conflict mid November. He had a tantrum, cursed at me and told me he didn't care what I believe ( think feel)

Then he blocked me, except in a game we play, where he made a private chat room for us last fall.

I didn't try to re-engage. I just felt, honestly, like there was nothing I could do to repair things and as long as he is in state of refusal, obviously no point.

So I played the game. Sat in the chat room. He sat there. Unlike any other time I have known him, I said nothing. No trying to be nice and saying hi, no saying a word. I just went about my business. I figured at some point he would work through some things and maybe shift perspective. I told him I could not be involved unless he was willing to offer transparency instead of hiding things, blocking me, dishonesty, and so on. I thought it would take a very long time for him to think through things.

3 days ago, he unblocked me, contacted me, and apologized. He has had me blocked on social sites since late May of last year. Request to stop the blocking got me kicked in the teeth, so I walked away from it. I was surprised. Wary. I thought, well maybe he is finally "getting it" and we can start to work from here.

It was going well. Until today. Guess I should appreciate I had 2 full days.

Ok. In the past fall he and I were having a conflict over a woman he was going off along with ( the Frisbee things). He had lied to me that she was a man, it comes out, I am upset, etc. CONFLICT.

He stopped doing that.

Today, she comes over and sends him a friend request. He tells me about this.  This is a lady he was willing to lie to me over. He knows I was hurt over it, he knows I don't like her. I respond to him, you know how I feel. He laughs and says yes, he does.

At that point, I am feeling the hurt of it all again. I decided to step away and defray the upset. I come back. He has added her as a friend.

Suckerpunched again. It feels that way, at least.

I say to him, why? Knowing the conflict over her, knowing the trust issues, knowing I was hurt over what happened with the cheating and the aborted baby. WHY?

His explanation. Danielle is stupid. He goes around through his daily work and business and talks to all sort of people. Other ladies and Danielle is just being STUPID.

Then he confesses. He was hanging out with some friend of his who was drunk, who  says hey here is that girl's facebook page. So he scampers over to have a look. She is a divorced woman with a son. And, she has an open page, where ANYONE can post stuff or "like" things. So being the smart fellow he is, he LIKED a photo of her and her son. She then checks him out, realizes she knows him, and sends a friend request.

He says to me, "It's not my fault. That drunk guy showed me the page!"

I say, "nice try, it was your choice."

I am having a problem with this. He did this knowing we had conflict over her, lying to me about her in order to be around her alone.  He did it knowing how much hurt I already have over the cheating, etc.

To me, it's just another kick in the teeth.

To him, he already knew there were big problems with it, but he didn't want to hurt her feelings ( they are still on the same Frisbee team) and he didn't want to have to explain to her why he was ignoring he request. Save public face. He points out to me that HE did not ask her, she asked him. He did show me. She did ask him.

I don't care about her feelings. I don't think he should care about her feelings. He wants to repair our relationship, however he keeps bring over women we have issues over and adding to facebook, the affair... .

I want to tell him, remove her, and when you make this right with me, we can talk again.

He did apologize after he did it and he could see I had tears in my eyes and was upset. He knew I was upset BEFORE that. The apology means nothing to me.

I keep thinking about the boundaries. My stuff. So I am not going to issue ultimatum like statements.

I need to know I am doing the right thing. I guess the question I am kind of struggling with now, is before I leave again, should I tell him why? I guess it will be obvious after a few days of my absence again, that he *should* understand that I have left again because of what he did by bringing someone closer in who he knows he hurt me over. That if I am gone, probably that is why.

A year ago, I would have raised cain over this. When he apologized, I told him,  I am too hurt to give you the response you are probably hoping for.

He then tried to make it all better, except doing the thing that for me would have made it all better: unfriending her and ignoring her outside of Frisbee practice.

Is there anything else I should be doing right now to resolve this, other than just walking away again?  I don't feel what he did is acceptable. I communicated that. He didn't fix it, too embarrassed to do it, and he feels it's unfair to that girl.

And what about me  :'( what's fair to me?

[Notwendy]

I don't really understand the social media issues, but this doesn't matter because, our boundaries are ours. They are things that we feel are important to us in a relationship. They reflect our own values. Some people wish for a partner who shares their religion, or is faithful. Others may not care about religion or want an open relationship. The bottom line?

Boundaries are not right or wrong, they are what they are, and we have the right ( and choice to) uphold our own boundaries. We don't owe anyone else an explanation or a justification. In fact, if we do try to explain them, we could end up in a circular argument that goes nowhere.

Friending that person may mean little to your bf, but it means a lot to you. Neither of you needs to justify it.

The bottom line is this. You have boundaries for what you wish in a relationship. They are honesty and fidelity. These values can play out anywhere: social media, interpersonal relationships, and even in life. If we value honesty, then if our partner were to rob a bank, that would upset us. However, the partner may think it is OK to rob a bank. Different values, different boundaries.

The choice you are asking here is: Discontinue an online relationship with your bf who has shown to not respect your boundaries several times. Or continue it and accept a relationship where your boundaries are likely to be crossed.

And your question is - if you leave should you say anything about it? I think that is up to you, but you know that saying something could lead to a circular argument. One way to say it is to not mention anything he did. Do not make it about him. That gets you on the triangle in victim mode.

Keep this about you. "I am not comfortable continuing this (relationship) ( or online communication)  and so do not wish to be contacted ( this way) anymore. "

IMHO, that's all that needs to be said. Getting into it would be drama. He knows darn well why you are upset.

Another choice would be to do nothing, say little, and just stay online with him and not discuss personal issues online. This doesn't add any drama. It means you choose to not react to online communications, but you have also said this may bother you too much to do this.

I know that discussing leaving is not a part of the staying board. I am not telling you to leave, but responding to your question of what to say. The choice is yours to make. I am also not sure if you are asking about discontinuing online communication or the relationship in general.

A moderator may decide to move this to another board.

[Daniell85]

This may sound odd.

I am utilizing the absence to inform him my boundaries are being violated.

So I am taking it from small to increasing absence. It's the only thing he seems to respond to in a productive way. Talking to him is impossible. It turns into a 3 ring circus.

To be clear, this is not me ending the relationship. I had very bad boundaries for almost all of the relationship, and I am trying to enforce them by quietly walking away when he is ugly to me.

Communication and interaction have dwindled down to electronic media because when he got really nasty with me last May, we stopped running back and forth. The relationship typically is not all online. It is a long distance one.

He wants to repair it back to what it was, and so do I. He insisting HE doesn't need to make effort. The point with the social media is he is cheating with women ( he says in the past) then adding them as contacts NOW. If your husband cheated on you, would you be ok with his other woman, AFTER the affair, being invited as a friend on his facebook page?

Maybe you would. As you said people are individuals.

To me his actions are hurtful, disrespectful, and continued cheating behavior. To him... .he says I am stupid or how I feel, he has implied I have cheated too. ( no. I have not) and he is trying to threaten and bully me into silence. I don't see in any point in arguing, so I tell him maybe he needs some time to think on things, I am ok with that, and I remove myself from access, or I simply go quiet. He is used to me making big desperate efforts and it's way different behavior from me.

[Notwendy]

Personally, no, I would not be OK with cheating and then not OK with the facebook friendship after the cheating.

I know couples who have recovered after cheating (in a non open relationship) . From what I do know, it takes a lot of therapy and effort on both their parts and some agreements. One agreement is to not have any contact with the other woman or other man. So I understand that this bothers you, and recovering your relationship if possible would mean some agreements between the two of you.

I also know that for the couples I know, the agreements were moderated by a counselor who could minimize the drama between them. Otherwise, it could become a situation of reactivity to each other. This is the danger of responding to his violation with a move on your own. Is it for you, or to send him a message? Maybe both. But for true healing to occur between people, I think it requires a lot of work for both people, at least from what I have known - and that is just from friends.

[Daniell85]

He refuses to sit down and discuss a plan forward. He gets upset.

Or rather he is willing to talk about some happy and good things and towards the future, but he leaves the conversation if I try to talk to him about the adding of these women to facebook. He is flat out refusing to unfriend them and insists it is HIS choice to add them if he wants.

Well, true, but it isn't healing the relationship. Which he wants healed. I did, too, but the chaotic nature things is wearing me down.

[patientandclear]

Seems to me the biggest issue at this point is not cheating, pregnancy or even honesty per se. He is actually more honest than, say, my ex, who would not have admitted or disclosed any of these "violations" because he didn't want to endure the consequences (my withdrawal).

Seems to me the core issue for you, Daniell, is that he does things on purpose, with eyes wide open, knowing they hurt you. That IS a pretty core challenge for a loving r/ship.

As he's described it, though, his freedom to do whatever it is you don't want done is actually a core need for him. I assume it's a freedom thing.

I'm guessing he'd, ironically, be far more likely to let these other connections with other women go if you stopped caring and stopped asking. You caring is exactly what gives this its freedom-declaring power. Does that make sense?

But you not caring and not asking is the opposite path toward recovery from infidelity than the one we all have heard, that NotWendy describes above, and that you understandably want to pursue: disclosure, honesty, promises to completely exclude the affair partner(s), transparent actions consistent with those promises.

I don't know that it's possible to recover from infidelity using the approach your BF wants. But it's very clear he is 1000% wedded to that approach, as wedded as you are to the opposite. You guys have diametrically opposed powerful needs on this point. It's hard to resolve without one of you feeling badly compromised.

[Notwendy]

This is common. While nons want some accountability and an apology, those are two very difficult things for someone with a PD. That does not excuse the behavior, but it is what it is. What I have experienced is that the person with BPD may do something that is hurtful to their partner, and may also want to make things better, but wants it to be more like those magic erase boards. Ok its over now, it didn't happen.

But it did, and while the non is hurting and wants to explain the past or the behavior, attempting to do so can result in increasing the drama between the two partners.

Dysfunctional relationships tend to operate on the triangle, where there are only three roles. An individual can also play all three roles with themselves. What can cause cheating or other hurtful behavior- addictions, spending, is this: the person with BPD feels bad, goes into victim mode, and then "rescues" themselves with a temporary feel good behavior. At this very moment in time, the pw BPD feels justified in the action. Then, the non feels hurt by this- and so approaches the pw BPD in victim mode. ( "how could you do this to me). The pwBPD sees the non as a persecutor, takes on victim mode and then feels justified in defending himself against the non which further justifies the offending behavior to him.

So, this last event. Your BF is on Facebook ( I assume it is FB but could be any site) with drunk guy, and they are stalking people- looking at profiles. Who hasn't done this just for fun ( those who use FB). So they get on the other woman's site and somehow the picture is "liked" maybe your BF was saving face with the friend or just being impulsive. The OW sends a friend request. In the moment, your bf accepts it. I don't know why. Yes, it is hurtful to you, but in the moment, it was most likely about him, not you.

You find out, and now, he is in hot water. But people with BPD are not likely to be accountable for his actions. So does the quick "rescue" and blames it on the friend.

How you respond next is a key here, because if you act from a place of "you hurt me" then, you are acting from victim position. The only way to proceed from this is on the triangle.

You are concerned about boundaries. Acting on a boundary is not acting as a victim. But boundaries are about us, not them. It is best not to make them the reason, but you the reason.

Silence, or non communication can be seen as passive aggressive, or the silent treatment. If the silence is to gather your thoughts together and think, then OK, but if it is to show him, then non communicating doesn't show him.

A simple response could be to say that "I wish to repair the relationship, but for me to do so, would mean that both of us stay faithful to each other and not contact any romantic interest in the presence or near past " ( meaning someone who could upset you, not someone he knew long ago that isn't an issue at the moment- you can decide where to draw the line, but most people have friends of both genders on FB)

" Being Facebook friends with "other woman" is upsetting to me. I would like you to unfriend her and agree to not contact other romantic interests when dating me"

Now, he may or may not comply with this, but you can ask it. Don't criticize ,blame, get emotional. Then, see what happens. He may not comply right away. He may argue, but you don't have to take the bait. Just let him work it out. Until then, if he contacts you, you can reply from a neutral place and not JADE. If it gets complicated, you can say that you need time to gather your thoughts and then stay away from communicating by social media for a bit.  

[Notwendy]

I cross posted with patientandclear, and the point about staying more midline and neutral is important. If you take an opposing stand, his reaction can be to dig his heels in his right to do what he wants.

You can express your wishes. That is your boundary, but from a place of neutrality, not hurt, not opposite, not an ultimatum, not blaming. Just that it is important to you.

[patientandclear]

This is common. While nons want some accountability and an apology, those are two very difficult things for someone with a PD. That does not excuse the behavior, but it is what it is. What I have experienced is that the person with BPD may do something that is hurtful to their partner, and may also want to make things better, but wants it to be more like those magic erase boards. Ok its over now, it didn't happen.

But it did, and while the non is hurting and wants to explain the past or the behavior, attempting to do so can result in increasing the drama between the two partners.

Dysfunctional relationships tend to operate on the triangle, where there are only three roles. An individual can also play all three roles with themselves. What can cause cheating or other hurtful behavior- addictions, spending, is this: the person with BPD feels bad, goes into victim mode, and then "rescues" themselves with a temporary feel good behavior. At this very moment in time, the pw BPD feels justified in the action. Then, the non feels hurt by this- and so approaches the pw BPD in victim mode. ( "how could you do this to me). The pwBPD sees the non as a persecutor, takes on victim mode and then feels justified in defending himself against the non which further justifies the offending behavior to him.

So, this last event. Your BF is on Facebook ( I assume it is FB but could be any site) with drunk guy, and they are stalking people- looking at profiles. Who hasn't done this just for fun ( those who use FB). So they get on the other woman's site and somehow the picture is "liked" maybe your BF was saving face with the friend or just being impulsive. The OW sends a friend request. In the moment, your bf accepts it. I don't know why. Yes, it is hurtful to you, but in the moment, it was most likely about him, not you.

You find out, and now, he is in hot water. But people with BPD are not likely to be accountable for his actions. So does the quick "rescue" and blames it on the friend.

How you respond next is a key here, because if you act from a place of "you hurt me" then, you are acting from victim position. The only way to proceed from this is on the triangle.

You are concerned about boundaries. Acting on a boundary is not acting as a victim. But boundaries are about us, not them. It is best not to make them the reason, but you the reason.

Silence, or non communication can be seen as passive aggressive, or the silent treatment. If the silence is to gather your thoughts together and think, then OK, but if it is to show him, then non communicating doesn't show him.

A simple response could be to say that "I wish to repair the relationship, but for me to do so, would mean that both of us stay faithful to each other and not contact any romantic interest in the presence or near past " ( meaning someone who could upset you, not someone he knew long ago that isn't an issue at the moment- you can decide where to draw the line, but most people have friends of both genders on FB)

" Being Facebook friends with "other woman" is upsetting to me. I would like you to unfriend her and agree to not contact other romantic interests when dating me"

Now, he may or may not comply with this, but you can ask it. Don't criticize ,blame, get emotional. Then, see what happens. He may not comply right away. He may argue, but you don't have to take the bait. Just let him work it out. Until then, if he contacts you, you can reply from a neutral place and not JADE. If it gets complicated, you can say that you need time to gather your thoughts and then stay away from communicating by social media for a bit.

I think this is excellent advice, but my sense is this is exactly how Daniell has proceeded for a long, long time.  She waits to see what he will do, and he similarly camps out waiting for her to budge.  He's been insisting on his right to continue to contact these women for a long time.  She's been saying in a non-ultimatum way that she would prefer that he not do that, for an equally long time.  Neither is moving.

His suggestion in the past has been that she make a concession first and then maybe he would make a concession.  This is essentially the same plan my ex has offered me from time to time: if I re-enter the relationship with no preconditions or terms, maybe it will be possible for him to deal with me differently.

I think for Daniell and also for me, that feels a little nuts.  Like we would be nuts.  Because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, radical acceptance that these are their behaviors, etc ... .suggest that it is UNlikely that it will work out that way.  Neither her person nor mine appears to have a lot of insight into why they impulsively need to contact and engage quasi-romantically or romantically with other women, and the chances of that impulse not reoccurring seem slim.  So really?  We should just restart having said what matters to is, and see how that goes?  It seems like self-abandonment.

Daniell, apologies if I am misstating your situation and feelings, but I identify with why, as I understand it, you haven't been able to just take a complete leap of faith that if you do nothing to protect yourself, he will somehow change his behavior to ensure you don't get hurt in the same way as before.

[Daniell85]

thanks for your replies.

Patient, you have the scenario exactly right. He won't budge until I take a big leap of faith. I have taken those leaps of faith a hundred times and ended up burnt. Badly. It's taken me from managing an anxiety issue into a full blown panic disorder.

He has given me silent treatment for months and months on end. I would reach out every week, kindly, and be ignored. When he had enough of doing ST, he would communicate, oh I don't know if you have changed, Danielle, not sure I want to take another chance with you.

I caved. Took the leap of faith. Then same infidelity problems, lying, gaslighting.

After being here a while, it seemed the only sensible course of any action was to accept he has issues, ones if left to himself a while, he would process enough on to shift his perspective some. The control issue is ENTRENCHED.  Sadly so. From his own family history, there is a good reason for it, but while I can ( and have been) careful with him about it, there comes a point where it's best for me not to be in the situation.

So I go quiet. So far if he contacts me, I respond. So it isn't silent treatment. It's withdrawal from engaging in a situation full of drama and numerous other women, who he claims are just friends, but who he has been inappropriate with. I can't handle the in my face stuff. It's a crazy maker.

Yes, the more pressure he feels, the more he is going to force things on me. The problem is he has latched onto refusing to restore trust  the way it actually has to be done ( no OW around, no hanging out with them, no social page stuff) as a means of showing me he can't be controlled.

If I walk away to give me time away from the stress and hurt, and  him time to ponder his course of action, I am doubtful this is manipulative tactic my part.

I guess I just wanted other's thoughts on what to do. Atm, after the latest situation, I am choosing not to engage. He is unlikely to talk to me anyway because he is furious at me for my, as he puts it "substandard behavior."

[Turkish]

While walking away or withdrawing may be you comminicating a boundary,.and I get not wanting to increase drama, he may not likely get it. Even if he does get it, his behaviors may not change. It's too passive a boundary.

His behavior seems like a compulsion...

Have you thought about being succinct, but truthful? ":)ude, you cheat. Period. That's why I'm not talking to you. Contact me when you decide you want me only, not other women."

Throw the ball into his court.

[MaybeSo]

Lots of good feedback on this thread.

I guess the question I am kind of struggling with now, is before I leave again, should I tell him why? I guess it will be obvious after a few days of my absence again, that he *should* understand that I have left again because of what he did by bringing someone closer in who he knows he hurt me over. That if I am gone, probably that is why.

What is your personal boundary around infidelity?  Is it important to you to tell him?  If it's to make an effect on him, it's probably going to go as you hoped.  Boundaries aren't about effecting other people.

A year ago, I would have raised cain over this. When he apologized, I told him,  I am too hurt to give you the response you are probably hoping for.

He then tried to make it all better, except doing the thing that for me would have made it all better: unfriending her and ignoring her outside of Frisbee practice.

Is there anything else I should be doing right now to resolve this, other than just walking away again?  I don't feel what he did is acceptable. I communicated that. He didn't fix it, too embarrassed to do it, and he feels it's unfair to that girl.

Well, what is your personal boundary around being in a r/s like this or where there is marked differences in how you and a partner act, feel and behave around infidelity, conflict and repair?

And what about me  cry what's fair to me?

Yes!  What about you?  What is your boundary?

This may sound odd.

I am utilizing the absence to inform him my boundaries are being violated.

Tricky.  Boundaries are for you and are about you, they are not about him.  Boundaries are intended as an action that puts the onus or responsibility on YOU to take good care of yourself and to create and maintain a life that supports your own personal values and integrity... .and they are not about someone else adopting our values or even agreeing with us.   A boundary doesn't have to even be discussed or "informed"... .although they are sometimes stated.  Since boundaries are driven by our values, we are directly and indirectly sharing our boundaries or lack thereof all the time, anyway.  We are also directly and indirectly "showing" people all the time if we stand by our own boundaries (values) or not.

To be clear, this is not me ending the relationship. I had very bad boundaries for almost all of the relationship, and I am trying to enforce them by quietly walking away when he is ugly to me.

I'm not sure what your boundary is regarding infidelity and such.  

When a discussion gets heated, it can certainly be a good thing to take a break!

It sounds like you are new to boundaries.  So be aware that this is a long process and it can take time to get clear on your own personal boundaries and also how to best take care of them.

Communication and interaction have dwindled down to electronic media because when he got really nasty with me last May, we stopped running back and forth. The relationship typically is not all online. It is a long distance one.

LDR's have a lot of challenges built-in!

He wants to repair it back to what it was, and so do I.

That's good.

He insisting HE doesn't need to make effort.

Whoa... .this is a red flag.  If this is really the position he takes, then he is telling you straight up how he views this issue.  I agree with P&C, he is being more "honest" than a lot of folks have experienced on this board.  You may not like what he is saying but it is being put forth.  He is showing you how he handles conflict of this nature in relationship.  He doesn't need to make an effort.  This is who he is.  One boundary violation I am often guilty of... .is refusing to accept people for who they are based on their stated words AND more importantly on their actual behaviors and actions... .and then continuing to expect them to act differently than who they ARE... .and expecting them to act more in accordance to my values, wants and needs.    This is a kind of boundary violation too... .refusing to accept a person as they are... .and it can set you up to abandon your own boundaries in the process.    

The point with the social media is he is cheating with women ( he says in the past) then adding them as contacts NOW. If your husband cheated on you, would you be ok with his other woman, AFTER the affair, being invited as a friend on his facebook page?

[/quote]

Maybe you would. As you said people are individuals.

I wouldn't be okay with that!  My job is to take care of myself around things I'm not okay with.  It's no one elses job.

To me his actions are hurtful, disrespectful, and continued cheating behavior.  

I'm hearing you say it is really important for you to be in a r/s with a person who has similar values around infidelity as you do... .along with similar values regarding sensitivity in handling repair if there were a breach of some sort like this in the r/s, right?  This sounds important to you.  You are essentially saying you want a partner who can appreciate your sensibilities and values around these issues. That's sounding suspiciously like a BOUNDARY!  Are you taking care of that boundary?   How are you taking steps to take care of your own needs in this area?  If it's not his job to do that... .but fully your job.  

To him... .he says I am stupid or how I feel, he has implied I have cheated too. ( no. I have not) and he is trying to threaten and bully me into silence. I don't see in any point in arguing, so I tell him maybe he needs some time to think on things, I am ok with that, and I remove myself from access, or I simply go quiet. He is used to me making big desperate efforts and it's way different behavior from me.

It sounds like you are trying to change your previous more desperate responses to him, which is good.

I also am seeing you describe a person who is exhibiting very different attitudes and views about relationship conflict, infidelity and repair strategies, than you have, right?  You two are very different in this regard.  You two think differently and respond differently about these issues.  How does this fit with your boundaries?

Boundary:  We have to accept people as they are, not as we want them to be.  

Another sure way to feel hurt and confused all the time is to keep demanding or expecting something from someone when they have shown you they aren't able or interested in giving it to you. This is also boundary work.  

Can you take care of yourself and be content in this relationship as he is right now... .the good the bad and the ugly? If the answer is no, then that says a lot about your boundaries. Here is an example boundary (just a example, it may not be accurate for you):

I don't allow myself to stay in relationships where I see dramatically painful differences in how we view issues of fidelity and repair in a relationship.  

"I do not stay involved with a person who I do not fundamentally accept as they are."

What if our primary boundary was this:

I am fully responsible for my happiness, peace of mind and wellbeing at all times, no one else.

Are you prepared to take care of yourself in this r/s as it is, and not rely on him to necessarily be very responsive or sensitive about your hurt feeling and needs in this area?   Does that fit your values?

And, have you decided what your boundary is around this area of infidelity as a whole?  You have to take charge of your own boundary for your own benefit, and not as a way to impact him.  This board can help you explore your own boundaries and what it looks like to take care of them.

You both have a right to be yourselves.  You both have a responsibility for owning your own boundaries and your own well-being.  

He is not interested in significant repair work.  He isn't sensitive to your position or your pain.  

Even in high functioning married couples where the partner who cheated has the motivation and the emotional maturity to do 1-2 years of full transparency work and exhibit lots of patience and empathy with the injured partner... .even then, at some point the injured partner has to let go and relax again and forgive if the r/s is to ever stand a chance, and it's still hard to do that even with a partner who is really really trying to work with you on repair. Partners who HAVE a spouse who steps up to the plate and really works hard and do all the right repair work... will tell you that it is still hard to trust again!  This is not easy work to do for either person.

He is showing you... .he's not interested in doing his part of that kind of heavy duty relationship repair work.  Can you live with that?

Heavy duty emotional repair work... is not a skill or behavior you associate with a person who has BPD.  Nons have to do most of the heavy emotional lifting when they are with a pwBPD.

That is why knowing clearly what YOUR boundaries really are around things like infidelity is so so so important.  

You know, the folks we are involved with on this board often have a lot of really compelling good traits and benefits that make looking at the hard stuff really difficult, b/c we want so badly to be with the person we love and the good things they bring to the table.  But we have to accept it all of them... .we can' cherry pick.  

You two have some very serious differences that keep coming up  around this issue.  That is something you have to decide if you can live with AND still maintain your own boundaries and your own integrity and well being, too.  These differences aren't just going to go away .

[Daniell85]

I am not able to live with it.

He relies on stubbornness to get people to eventually accept what he has done. Constant rug sweeping, leveraging how much they need him ( family, friends, etc) to force on to people damaging and hurtful actions.

He treats everyone this way. When he finds he can't have something or someone HE wants, he tries to hold out and force it, if he finds he still cant have  it or do it, he will proceed "properly" to get what he wants.

When I met him, I didn't see very much of this behavior. We knew each other over 2 years before becoming a couple. I didn't see any of this until deep into the relationship and typically his behavior like this was with other people.

I can deal with a lot of things, but my guy putting another woman ahead of me just to force something onto me and prove he can do it... .is not ok with me.

Thinking about some of the posts here, and watching his behavior, what he said the last few days.

He told me he would NOT remove the ladies.

He said I can hug and kiss you, spend time with you, send you flowers, chocolates, sex, anything BUT what I told him I need from him.

I'm not interested in a power struggle.

I guess what you guys are saying, is that if I want to preserve myself from the upsets, conflicts, and ultimately be true to what I need and who I am, simply making myself absent without telling him I will return if he changes what he is willing to do... .the lack of the communication about HIS actions is more on course to me enforcing to ME my needs and my boundaries.

I have been confused about should I, need I, tell him anything, other than being quiet and keeping to myself.

I never have had enough of a bad heart against anyone not to respond if they reach out. So he has never been on the receiving end of a true silent treatment. All he has had to do is reach out and I answered.

[MaybeSo]

He treats everyone this way. When he finds he can't have something or someone HE wants, he tries to hold out and force it, if he finds he still cant have  it or do it, he will proceed "properly" to get what he wants.

What is your goal here?  Is it to cut yourself off from him until he does as you have asked and unfriend this OW?

[patientandclear]

I am not able to live with it.

He relies on stubbornness to get people to eventually accept what he has done. Constant rug sweeping, leveraging how much they need him ( family, friends, etc) to force on to people damaging and hurtful actions.

He treats everyone this way. When he finds he can't have something or someone HE wants, he tries to hold out and force it, if he finds he still cant have  it or do it, he will proceed "properly" to get what he wants.

***

He told me he would NOT remove the ladies.

He said I can hug and kiss you, spend time with you, send you flowers, chocolates, sex, anything BUT what I told him I need from him.

I'm not interested in a power struggle.

Actually you ARE as committed to the power struggle as he is.  You have drawn as hard a line as he has.  Which is OK if you re-define what is going on as him having his boundaries (he will not capitulate and do things just because you want them -- he will resist "control" and you having yours (either, you won't engage in a normalized r/ship with him so long as he maintains contact with women with whom he's had intimate connection; or, you won't be in a r/ship with someone who wants to demonstrate control by forcing hurtful things on you.  Note -- those are two quite different boundaries, one of which (the second) has to do with a judgment about who he is, in his essence; the other of which imagines he might change this behavior).

My ex and I ended (it seems) over a similar impasse.  It can be redefined in nicer terms than "power struggle" if we understand it as two people whose core needs are not compatible.  That happens.

I think maybe what is bothering you at bottom is that his principle (not letting you control him) is sort of antithetical to caring about another person.  I don't think you're wrong about that.  If that rankles with you, that makes sense.  It IS hard to have a r/ship with someone whose MO is to find something that hurts you and make sure to do it just so it's clear to you both that he can.

My ex, again, is similar.  As I gain more distance from the r/ship, I see a clear pattern where he waited for me to identify something I wanted, and then went out of his way to say no.  He might later initiate that very thing, but if I wanted it, he would deny it.  I have no doubt this was part of his process for ensuring his own autonomy.  I get it.  But at some point, it's in tension with a real r/ship.  I could either get used to being told no constantly, or I could stop asking.  For a while, I chose the latter, and that was the price of peace.  But then he would go further afield to find something that hurt for me to accept.  Eventually I saw that he was methodically positioning himself as an enemy of the relationship.  That WAS what he wanted out of the relationship, if that makes sense.  It was doing something for him to put me in these positions and then to have me stay anyway.  If that's what he wants from a relationship, that is his business.  But it isn't the role I want to play (faithfully returning to prove my loyalty after being methodically hurt).  So, we're not together.

I vote for telling your guy what's up.  I think it's a good exercise to say out loud what you need.  Just staying away can have many meanings.  It could mean you no longer care.  It could mean you're mad resentful and sulking over past hurts.  It could mean you've reached a final judgment about him not being someone you want to be that close to.  Or it could mean you have certain conditions for engaging fully that are not currently happening.  I think it's a good practice to be clear with those we care about.  Otherwise they can make wrong assumptions about what the problem is.

I liked Turkish's simple straightforward suggestion.  When you read that, what was your reaction?  Is that something that would feel right to say to your guy?

[Daniell85]

I think he is reacting on abuse he suffered. His family "forced" him into doing things for their benefit, but ended up permanently restricting him financially and emotionally. Or more truthfully, the actions he would have to take to make these restrictions stop would have devastating ( in their minds) financial results to his family.

He was very soft hearted and easy to guilt into these things. He feels angry, betrayed, humiliated. He feels forced to give up his life for others. He resents the manipulations, the financial restrictions.

For example, after his dad died, his mother went into hysterics about her financial well being. Truthfully, the lady is an accountant, makes good money. He became so worried and upset for her, that he LET her manipulate him into signing a loan for an expensive home for her. She was to make partial payments and he would cover the remainder.

Though she has the money, she has stopped making payments. Leaving him with a huge mortgage he co signed for. Obviously solution to get out of the debilitating payment, is to sell the home. Once again, screams, crying, hysterics from her. She is his mother. He feels so guilty and compelled to make the payment, one that is kind of ruining his life. He can't afford his own home now.

He won't sell the home, she is co owner, refuses to agree, he is gutted at the idea of forcing the issue.

A part of his anger at feeling "forced" and controlled. He has told me he feels humiliated as a man, he feels so angry and defensive that even the slightest "push" "makes" him want to never ever do what he is being asked to do.

Puts the relationship in a real bind when you ask someone to stop cheating behaviors and flaunting other women around as a way for healing and rebuilding trust. His back is so up that he is unable/unwilling to act for the larger picture. I spent a lot of time trying to talk him around it. He isn't budging. When I stop talking and distance myself, after a while, he calms down ( from lack of pressure I guess) and sometimes acts on my behalf. God help me, though, if I say a word about it.

The goal for me is to not get really upset at his maladaptive actions. No ONE is going to make, appeal to his heart, he is NOT going to do as he is asked and WILL fight tooth and nail. It's very upsetting and hurtful on top of the cheating stuff that already has gone on.

I understand from his side, to him, this is survival. I understand he wants to survive. What is "right" to him is counter productive to a relationship, with me, at least.


My goal is to not be in a constant state of pain and anxiety, to not be in a fighting stance with others, particularly people I care for.

I have not cut off contact ever. I'm just not trying to talk to him or draw him out.  He blocks me, he unfriends me, he does disappearing acts. I am always here. I currently am not willing to engage actively in a romantic relationship with him, because it isn't in alignment with my values around cheating and infidelity. I don't feel capacity to even engage as a friend. I truly can't cope with the closeness otherwise.

[Daniell85]

Patient, we cross posted. Yes, I do feel stubborn about not resuming the relationship unless he stops cheating behaviors. He can do what he wants, obviously.

I am getting pretty tripped up here over the boundary thing. He's not doing what I need, I distance myself as a result. He knows why I am doing that. I told him that maybe as he heals this other stuff, possibly his views will shift. If so, I am happy to discuss it more at that point.

It sounds reasonable to me. My point in distancing is I really cannot handle the pain of being close to him. It "feels" really wrong and harmful to me and I end up lashing out at him. Staying back buffers that.