I somehow, without meaning to, have set "talking" as a line in the sand [Part 2]

[ProKonig]

Here's the thing.  If this guy were wandering through the world saying he wanted to be free to be non-monogamous, to have open relationships, yeah, I could just say that doesn't work for me.  A man I was somewhat interested in about three years ago presented me with that package.  Easy for me to say no.  What he wants and what I want don't match.

I have now written and said the words "what we need and can give don't match" to this BPD guy in my life quite a few times.  He does not agree.  He does NOT accept that he is a person who can't be monogamous.  Like the guy MaybeSo writes about, my person is saying there IS a woman he will be monogamous with and not react this way to.  He just hasn't met her yet.  Meanwhile, I rock and am awesome and we have an amazing relationship ... .so, let's do this thing!

About two years ago when my and my guy were in a place where we had  nothing to loose, and we were both willing to pull the sheet off the corpse so to speak... .and there was an unusual amount of honesty being shared... .I made the following observation verbally to him: 

You are always looking for the one, that peak experience.  You know at this point that it never lasts, that "the one" is just the fodder of fairly tales... .maybe 10 years ago there may have still been some ignorance about that... .but today, for sure... .you know perfectly well with each new love interest you pursue... .that it will be good in the beginning, but it never lasts. And part of the reason it is so good in the beginning, and part of the reason it is a 'peak experience' is because you are so strongly pushing your belief in love and the idea that there is that one special person out there... .and in each new beginning... .the person who you are with is led to believe they are 'the one'... .directly or indirectly this is strongly communicated... .it is all about finding the one, and being the one. It's all about having that peak experience.  I have often wondered why you keep selling that if you know from experience now that it isn't necessarily true... .and I realize you do that because that IS THE PEAK experience you are after.  If you were to simply tell women... .hey, I'm a great date/friend/lover but I don't do commitment... .you would not achieve the peak experience you are after.  The whole idea of 'the one' is what creates the peak experience you are after for both of you, if only temporarily. So you keep on with that narrative, no matter what.

His response:  Sheepishly... .You're exactly right.  And the fact that you see that so clearly and can be here may mean you really are the one.

My inside voice:  Hmmm... .I don't want to be 'the one'  ... .I want this nonsense to stop.

Afterword:  ah... .No, I wasn't the one.  No one is 'the one'.  But for him... .the fantasy just never stops.     

Wow... .nail on head. But reverse the genders for me.

At times I also get the rationale mind kicking in (from my partner), almost over-correcting. Saying that the concept of 'true love' is nonsense and she loathes the idea of marriage and children. Then the next day it's all, 'WHY AREN'T WE ENGAGED YET! I CAN'T WAIT TO HAVE CHILDREN WITH YOU!"

That's a tricky circle to square when you have to respond to both those moods and attitudes. Made even worse by the fact they remember your contradictions but not their own.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

P&C,

Have you had a period in your r/s with this guy where you focus on "doing" the relationship and focusing your talks on things that you do and steering clear of discussing the actual r/s?

So the discussions/talks would be about the trip to the beach you had or the plans for grilling out together, rather that whether or not either of you are "the one".

I just skimmed through the thread again and there are a bunch of great points in here. 

I'm also wondering where P&C is going with this r/s (the pwBPD) or with r/s in general.  In other words, what is the plan?

FF

Yes, FF, for 15 months (post-breakup,  and after NC for 10 months that I asked for because he was seeing someone else, though that was not the reason I gave him -- just said "if you cannot be my partner I need to say goodbye, at least for now). After I got back in touch (he was not seeing anyone at that point), we never or virtually never talked about the r/ship. I engaged with him without reviewing or establishing any "terms." It was great. We had a quite wonderful thing. Then, after a particularly meaningful and close time of confidences and sharing and growth, he suddenly moved across the country on three weeks' notice. I was supportive when he went traveling for an indefinite time, but when he announced he was settling down in an apparently random new city, I raised the impact on our r/ship, and he punished me pretty severely with a long ST period and a lecture about how we were only friends, I was controlling etc.

We repaired after that and again did not discuss the r/ship. It was again great, tender, sweet, close. But then I learned he was seriously seeing another woman in the new city ... .

That is why I lack confidence that, if I'm just relaxed and open and don't establish the terms on which I'm allowing him intimate access, it will all go well. I did that. It hurt a lot, and I saw how he uses the "friendship" label to take what he wishes and to then deny that there is any expectation of responsibility that comes with that. For me, there is. Knowing he proceeds like that, it feels stupid to just go one more lap around that same track. This summer, we did three more months of sweet closeness without overt negotiation of terms. It was again great. But ... .I have zero reason to expect he's not going to start seeing someone else, and in his case, knowing I don't like that, he's entirely capable of hiding that for a long time. Plus leaving me in new and creative ways that I can't object to without him replying that I was not supposed to have any expectations in the first place. The "friends" label and framework itself does damage, I guess is what I'm saying.

[Grey Kitty]

  His words justifying it don't change the hurt, rejection, and general mindf*** you experienced after getting closer to him.

So what does your future look like to you?

[patientandclear]

There's no answer to that question that has much to do with him. I have a fulfilling life without him and I am living it--what else is there to do? I just miss him, and have a haunting, lingering feeling that I handled this badly in a way that foreclosed some growth paths that were otherwise available to us.

I can't just undo that by reaching out now. Doesn't work like that. He's making his own choice to be silent and that means we're now very far from the place of warmth and (what felt like) goodwill we were in this summer. What happened here can easily be converted in his mind to "P&C had an agenda and can never respect my limits." That's not what happened but it's an easy way to tell this story to make it digestible. I sometimes feel I inadvertently did a lot of damage by how I navigated this that I wish I could undo, but don't think I can, not on my own.

[formflier]

  Why worry about how he converts things in his head?  One piece I am missing (perhaps) is if you are or were comfortable with no label or a friends label, how the r/s got "too close" or to the point where it was hurtful for you.  I realize that he was probably pushing for more intimacy without wanting to do what he knew you required to have it.  Did you get tired of enforcing the limits of the r/s or pulling the r/s back to a "friendly" place?  Does the past need to be fixed?  If you reach out and "do it correctly" from this point on, does the past matter?    

FF

[patientandclear]

I think damage has been done that I can't reverse. I could be wrong.

Also, I think if I reach out, he will conclude that waiting me out when I enforce limits is going to work. I really don't want to communicate that.

The r/ship was only "too close" if he was going to be seeing other people or denying the nature of what we are to each other when it's convenient to him in order to fend off any expectations of continuity I legitimately have. I needed to EITHER not let it be so close--or make sure he knew that that was still my framework for an emotionally intimate r/ship with him. For better or for worse, I chose the latter.

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, I just don't see the happy middle ground you want with him.

When he comes back, he has always driven the emotional intimacy to the serious relationship level with you.

I don't think you can hold him back in that way.

Honestly I suspect he is going to run away again, no matter what you do next. Perhaps you will violate his "friends only" rule in some new way. Perhaps he will find or manufacture another reason.

The only way I could see it being different would be if he wasn't your exclusive emotionally intimate friend. Since he had been so clear about being just friends you could try dating ... .Looking for a romantic partner. And if your friend returns, you get a friend too.

[MaybeSo]

I still see my 'ex' as a friend on and off.  I helped raise his chlldren etc. and I do enjoy seeing him and them from time to time.  To be clear, I sometimes don't see from him or hear from him for months... .this is not an everyday thing.

Here is what I've learned:

I am not hurting the way I use to, b/c I have shifted and grown to not think of him as a person I can have a traditional husband/wife  kind of r/s with. If I start fantasizing about a traditional r/s with him, I remind myself that if I want that, nothing is preventing me from finding that with someone else. This has been comforting to me, but it has taken me a long time to get to this place.  

I make my career, personal life, and spiritual life a priority and I design it as much as possible to be nurishing and stimulating to me.  He is on the periphery, I do not design my life around him in any manner.    

When I am around him, he sometime bears down on me in that intimate, romantic way.  I set boundaries and act on them when I need to. Sometimes, it's nice to have a little romance coming  my way... .so I just enjoy it and don't take it seriously.  If it's too much, I take care of myself.   Last time he did that, I told him we need some time a part, not a big deal, just, kind of not allowing him to  just assume he can come over whenever he wants and treat me as if I'm his girlfriend when I'm not.    And sometimes I go weeks just not seeing him at all,  and that's fine, b/c he's not my boyfriend.  I take the time I need.  We are friends, not lovers.  I keep the boundary where I need it for me.  If I'm weak or confused about my own boundary, then yea... .he's going to encroach on me if I let him, and he is all about the "peak" experience, but, I know that now.  I know him, I don't take his romantic gestures seriously, I just move along.  You have to take care of yourself both inside and outside for this to work.  He is not going to take care of boundaries for me.  That's for sure.

I limit my time with him and keep my priorities in line with my own goals and my own life.

When I am with him, I enjoy the moment and I am present with what is.

I am not seeing anyone else romantically right now, but I am in no way off the market or not open to meeting new people.  I do not sleep with my ex, he is a friend, I would feel fine if I met someone else.  He is not committed to me, I am not making any commitments to him anymore.  I do a lot of other things with other freinds, I don't allow him and his calendar to prevent me from moving a long with my life.

I do not pine for him.  I use to, but not anymore.  

He has BPD, though he is high functioning.   He still can be sometimes quite difficult at times,  but not too often, not like when were were a pair and the closeness just triggers him too much.  He is not good as a 'couple', not long term.  Not past about 4 months.    

We had a misunderstanding on Christmas after our kids had left.  I then went to the movies alone and am continuing on with my NYs eve plans with others,  which he is choosing to not attend, after all.  I respect his choice to not attend, and I move on with my plans.  I'm not attached to him being consistent; he not a person you want to feel like you need to rely on the way you would a mate.  He is not a traditional mate, he is not that kind of person.  He can offer lots of things, but not a stable, traditional kind of relationship experience.  If you want that, seek that elsewhere from others.  Not from him.

I consider him a completely free agent.  It is none of my business who he sees or what he does when he's not with me.  

Same goes for me.

If you love someone, you have to love them for who they are, not what you wish they would be or dream of them to be.   This is who he is.  I do not complain or pine for what I wish he could be.  

I focus on making myself happy and accepting reality.  There is nothing preventing me from finding and cultivating a life with a man who is not so commitment phobic and doesn't have such significant emotional issues, and one day I probably will.  My ex is NOT that person.  But meanwhile, I do spend some time with my ex, and I enjoy those times for what they offer at face value.  Nothing more.  It's not always perfect or without pangs, but that's life.  There is no perfect relationship or friendship, they all have their good parts and bad parts.  

At this point, I'd not even think to give ultimatums, or talk  to him about commitment or any of those things.  I think it's a huge waste of time.  I think it's just such a trap to even get into those things. One of the best things about knowing my ex, is how much I've had to grow-up and learn to take care of myself and accept and love people for who they are. I feel like I'm a much more grounded person having known him and gone through hell with him. I am so much more confident about taking care of my own emotional needs than I ever was before I met him.  In a way I am both so much stronger and softer than 10 years ago when I first met this person.  

I don't think my path is for everyone.  But it's been a very growthfull experience for me.  I have times where I really feel that I hate BPD as a disorder, and probably always will.  This disorder handicaps folks in such important ways, but, of course these people have some interesting gifts, too.  

Anyway, this is not a person I"m going to have a normal, traditional, steady r/s with... .it's not going to happen.  I've grieved my losses.  I'm over the dream.  

Probably your guy is just not capable of that, either.  It's not personal. Can you accept him as he is, take care of yourself and your own boundaries, stop asking him to do something he's not going to be able to do... .and move along and be content and very grounded in your own path. With no hope of resolution or something more happening or developing down the line?      

[patientandclear]

I don't know.  He relentlessly bulldozes into a position I would normally only let a monogamous partner into.  What would I do about that?  Constantly make him be less?  Even though I enjoy that part as much as he does?

When I try to scale back he feels hurt, wounded, that I have a failure of imagination.  When I try to scale back, it is constantly me making the thing smaller and less.

When I want it to be bigger and more, everything he offers.

I've objected to him putting us in a small box with a lid and not letting the relationship grow beyond it.  I feel like, if I am constantly shutting down his pushes for intimacy, I'm effectively doing the same.  And then, what do we have?

How do I just accept him as he is, when HE is constantly pushing the thing past what he is capable of sustaining?

I can't help but feel there is a using, taking quality to this, that it isn't good to facilitate.  MaybeSo, it that feeling absent in your case, or have you just moved beyond caring whether that is true?  And just take it for what it is to you -- regardless of how he is using it for himself?  (What about the other women he is using/wrecking? I disapprove in a deep way, think it's reckless ... .does that not matter?)

And how to deal with suddenly being dropped from the heightened valuable position of pseudo partner to some touchstone who is constantly around but not a priority, when they are focused on someone else?  That feels yucky to me.  Like an actual betrayal of thing we do, that I'm just going to repeatedly ignore.

I hear the virtue and value of just being OK with him as he is, enjoying it for what it is.  But what it is feels compromised and compromising, somehow.

Which I suppose is why I'm still caught up in the question of whether it can change if I handle things differently than I did. Just accepting how it goes, which he would so like me to do, doesn't feel good.

[unicorn2014]

Which leads me to this morning's observation. I lost my current phone and am using an old one from the time 20 months ago when I first raised these issues of him keeping me as kind of emotional concubine (not how I described it) and he blew up and told me to have a nice life. Reading my texts to friends then, it was all the same feelings  I have now ... .And I already decided what to do, which was to stop unless something really changed. I've now given it a chance after he told me this is so very important to him, and nothing has changed. I think the growth edge Maybe So spoke of is in accepting that's how it is with us.

P&C this is the first time I've read one of your threads, I just finished part 1 of this, and i have to tell you that part I bolded made me laugh out and I"m still smiling.   That so sounds like my person  wBPD!  Its such a relief to read that I'm not the only person dealing with this kind of behavior from someone. Most people you talk to out in the world if you describe that kind of behavior to them they will tell you to run. Its great to have somewhere to come to where we don't hear run but we hear how deal with things without running.

(The emotional concubine part was great too, I could see myself saying something snarky like that in a similar situation!) 

[MaybeSo]

quote] don't know.  He relentlessly bulldozes into a position I would normally only let a monogamous partner into.  What would I do about that?  Constantly make him be less?  Even though I enjoy that part as much as he does?

[/quote]
That's boundary stuff.  :)on't get me wrong, my ex isn't a big fan of my boundaries all the time, either.  I'm sure I bum him out by having boundaries, but too bad.  I'm sure the big stretches where we don't see each other  at all is in part b/c he's not a huge fan of my boundaries,  or I just want to take space. I do not like being relentlessly bulldozed by anyone... .that's a boundary.  He wouldn't be seeing me at all if I felt relentlessly bulldozed.    If he doesn't want to see me anymore ever or doesn't like my boundaries, that's okay. I don't fear losing him like I use to.  I've lost him over and over again... .it's fine.  

When I try to scale back 1) he feels hurt, 2) wounded, 3) that I have a failure of imagination.  When I try to scale back, it is constantly me making the thing smaller and less.

AS far as we know, these guys have BPD or something akin.  So, they are going to feel easily feel hurt and wounded not matter what.  That's part of the disorder.  They have thin emotional skin, they feel like their emotional skin has 3 degree burns, as Linehan puts it.   There's no getting around it.  That's not because of me, and I can't fix it for him.

So I try to be in integrity when I interact with him, but I"m not going to bend over backwards to avoid him ever having a hurt feeling... .It's not possible.  I don't care if he feels hurt sometimes.  I mean, I care, but I can't prevent it.  It is 100% clear to me that I can't be in integrity nor be myself if my goal is to never do anything that might cause him to have hurt feelings or to have some discomfort.  I hurt sometimes too, and I live through it.  So can he. I try to treat him with the same integrity I treat other people in my life. If I make a mistake, I apologize, but I'm not going to jump through hoops.   Most other people I know aren't as easily hurt as he is, But, I can't protect him from his own feelings or compromise myself in the hopes he is never hurt or wounded.  

As for the 3d point, your guys assessment that you "have a failure of imagination" is his opinion.  He has a right to his opinion.  It's just an opinion.  I'm getting much better in not getting too tied into anyone who is telling me about myself.  That's usually projection, and also a boundary issue.  I trust people much more when they communicate from a self-defining place about themselves and sharing and owning their own experience. When we start telling someone else who they are or about their experience, that's pretty lousy communication.  I try to catch myself if I do this to my ex (or other people) and try really hard to be mindful about not telling another person about themselves. I might ask questions, but it sucks to be told about yourself.  If I'm doing that a lot... .I start to check myself for my own projections... .cause that's usually what's going on. When people do it to me, same thing.

I'm not sure what you mean... .you are scaling back to make the thing smaller.  It's no smaller than it actually is, right?  

When I want it to be bigger and more, everything he offers.

He offers more but it's not real or sustainable.  Your wanting it to be bigger doesn't make it bigger.  You may want the carrot he holds out, but what he is offering isn't sustainable.  If you understand that, then the desire for more should be looked at closely inside yourself. If you really want more, it would come from a different and more sustainable source, and not from him, a person who can't provide this.  If you aren't taking action for that... .then maybe what he offers is really more in tune with what you can in reality receive.  He keeps pushing for something bigger but he shows you he can't deliver.  You keep saying you want something bigger but stay interested in someone who shows you he can't provide it. See how we have more in common with these guys then we think?  Perfect match-up. Maybe you are both interested in the idea of something more, but you both are not really up for it when push comes to shove? I would stay with this as an internal inquiry for a while.  This is something I have been really meditating on for a long time now (about two years)... .about my r/s with ex, especially when I was more hooked into it. I've mentioned it on here before.  When we say we want something, but stay in a place (relationship, mindset, belief, thought pattern) that prevents that from happening... .then we have to ask if what we really want... .is to want.   If we can only manage the wanting, then we stay in that place.  The longing, the idea of it, the image of it, the pursuit of it, the fantasy of it... .this wanting... .it is a much different experience than the experience of having or doing.   If you stay in wanting all the time, at some point you have to ask if you really want to have it,  or if you are only able to manage the intensity of the wanting/desiring of it. People do what feels familiar and safe to them.  i think it's a mistake to look at him as the only obstacle to intimacy that you have.

I've objected to him putting us in a small box with a lid and not letting the relationship grow beyond it.  I feel like, if I am constantly shutting down his pushes for intimacy, I'm effectively doing the same.  And then, what do we have?

I don't think he is pushing for intimacy from what you've described.  I think he is pushing for "pseudo intimacy".  At least, that's what is has shown up as so far,  Right?  This is the shallow water that they have the most expertise swimming in. It's possible we are more comfortable in those shallow waters too, or we wouldn't have been splashing around in this pond for son long.  but, if we agree deep intimacy is not what he's really offering... .then by NOT buying into someone's bids for pretend intimacy... .you are not actually shutting down intimacy, are you?   Rather, you are saying no to pretend intimacy.  By saying NO to pretend intimacy, you are saying YES to true intimacy by announcing through your words and actions that you value that which is substantial and more real than what he tends to seductively offer.

How do I just accept him as he is, when HE is constantly pushing the thing past what he is capable of sustaining?

You just said right there that you don't believe he is capable of intimacy.  So keep that in mind. Be clear about it.  

How do you accept this?  By trusting yourself.  He is who he is.  He is who he is whether you 'accept' it or not.  If you mean, how do you have him in your life when you know he is incapable of intimacy, first... .know that and accept that.  Then you can do whatever you want about it that fits for you.  Know yourself well.  Then choose.  Never see him again.  Enjoy his companionship with limits that you decide protect you.  And anything in between... .it's really up to you.

I can't help but feel there is a using, taking quality to this, that it isn't good to facilitate.

So don't facilitate his using you.  If you feel that's not possible or it's too slippery or confusing or hurtful and you end up being used... .then that is helping to inform your boundary about what you need to do for yourself.  

 MaybeSo, it that feeling absent in your case, or have you just moved beyond caring whether that is true?  And just take it for what it is to you -- regardless of how he is using it for himself?  (What about the other women he is using/wrecking? I disapprove in a deep way, think it's reckless ... .does that not matter?)

I focus on making sure I do not feel used by him or anyone else, and if I do feel used, I try to make adjustments so that I'm taking better care of myself.   I don't leave it up to him.   Is he capable of "using" me.  Yes, I think so If I allow it.  If he is seductive and I know he paints a pretty picture but can't follow through... .then it's my job to not fall for it.  Am I a 100 % fan of everything about him?  NO!  Absolutely not!   Is he seeing other women and being a heart-breaker with other women?  I don't know, none of my business.  I suppose he probably does see other women. What he does and what the women do is not my business.   Those gals will have to take care of themselves just as I have had to learn to take good care of myself.  I just had dinner tonight with a good friend who is a woman.  She is in many ways the female version of my BF, but probably more emotionally stable than he, though.  She is 65 now, but in her day,  she had been in and out of relationships with men all her adult life, married once for about 8 years, lots of short term affairs, 1-3 longer term affairs.  She falls in love with a man, and then grows tired and moves on.   This is not the sum total of who she is, however.   She has done many things in her life, personally and professionally,  touched many people's lives in very positive ways, and has really had a full and interesting life as a whole. Her mother was schizophrenic, her father abandoned them when she was a teen, she created a hugely successful business out of nothing.  If I were one of the men on the receiving end of her "growing bored" scenarios... .I'd probably have been very hurt, maybe even traumatized depending on my history... .at least for a while.  She left her one marriage for a guy whom she and her husband had contracted to paint their very expensive house. She freely admits her husband was a great guy, who did nothing wrong. She still is fond of her ex husband.  She just does not have a very good track record in the stable romance department, and she is honest with me that my EX reminds her a lot of herself when she was younger.  If being friends with my ex were to present in a way where I can no longer maintain my own integrity, I'd stop seeing him. He's not a criminal.  As it is, we don't see all that much of each other.  

And how to deal with suddenly being dropped from the heightened valuable position of pseudo partner to some touchstone who is constantly around but not a priority, when they are focused on someone else?  That feels yucky to me.  Like an actual betrayal of thing we do, that I'm just going to repeatedly ignore.

This bothered me until I got over it.  I'm over it.  I make myself a priority, I don't fixate on if I'm his priority or not. And I don't want to be his pseudo partner.  I don't play that role anymore, it's a b.s. gig and I don't want it.  The phrase "heightened valuable position of pseudo partner" is fascinating when you think about it.   How can it be valuable if it's phony?  Why is it heightened?  I tell you why, b/c it's grandiose smoke and mirrors and it's dependent on another person. It feels great until the pull the rug out... .then it's deflating and nauseating.  He's not the problem.  The beliefs are the problem.    

You know, none of this is easy and I in no way want to come off like I have it all down b/c I don't.  I'm just a person like you trying to figure this all out, too.   I'm just living my life and moving along.  

But I do know that when I focus on him and whatever I think I'm going to get or be or feel  or achieve or glean or experience from or through HIM... .I always suffer.  

Always.

I always suffer as soon as I go to that place.   In my world right now, there is NO getting something from HIM or through him.    He cannot grant me anything I can't give to myself including my own peace of mind, He can not give me value, security, peace, love... .and if I find myself feeling that old feeling of anger or hand-wringing that he isn't giving me something or if he just would give me something... .or conversely... .gave it then took it away... .as soon as my thoughts or beliefs put him in that place of power over... .I just know I'm going down the wrong path.  If there's one thing this has taught me, in the last ten years... is that when my thoughts go there, that I need something from him... .that I am on the wrong path.  That is the path of suffering.  I know that is the wrong path, and when I go down that path... .I'm doing to myself.  

I hear the virtue and value of just being OK with him as he is, enjoying it for what it is.  But what it is feels compromised and compromising, somehow.

then I'd not do it.  My goal is stay in integrity with myself.  

Which I suppose is why I'm still caught up in the question of whether it can change if I handle things differently than I did. Just accepting how it goes, which he would so like me to do, doesn't feel good.

I don't expect anything about my EX to change. I don't imagine he is going to change substantially in the sense that he will bc a person comfortable with regular old real intimacy based on anything I'm doing.   He does change in the sense that he learns new things and travels and has new experiences that he shares etc., but I don't imagine he's going to turn into a person who shows-up much differently than he always has for r/s.   I accept him as he is.   That doesn't mean I accept anything he wants or needs or I accommodate him at the expense of myself.  NO WAY!   My goal is to live my life with integrity, not walk on eggshells for him.  

[MaybeSo]

Is this a man extremely entrenched in an approach to life based on avoidance or limiting exposure to any possible fear of abandonment? Or is this a man on a quest to find the "love of his life" and staying connected to others to provide him emotional validation while on his quest?



In my experience it seems both are at play. it all works together.

[patientandclear]

Is this a man extremely entrenched in an approach to life based on avoidance or limiting exposure to any possible fear of abandonment? Or is this a man on a quest to find the "love of his life" and staying connected to others to provide him emotional validation while on his quest?

In my experience it seems both are at play. it all works together.

I agree.  He is still on that quest, perhaps with more desperation than ever.  But no one actually qualifies because his fears (of losing himself in the other person as much as literally being abandoned, of inevitable loss which life at this point is giving lots of evidence for), the resentments that come with a feeling of being implicitly or explicitly asked to change aspects of himself for the other person, and then the other persons reactions to his reactions ... .all preclude anyone from actually being "the love of his life."

Meanwhile, genuine attachment has obvious value and attraction.  But that doesn't map in his mind onto "love of his life" territory, or only rarely, and when it does, the fears/resentments/anticipated loss of self or other flare up very quickly, just confirming that you don't find the "love of your life" with these more mundane attachments.

[patientandclear]

MaybeSo, your post was a great way to start the new year.  Thank you so much for that.

I agree with your point that living in integrity to/with myself is the most important guide, and beyond that, to some extent, the chips have to fall where they fall with this man.

You said you didn't quite get what I meant when I said that, when I enforce boundaries rebuffing his intimate overtures (emotional, not physical -- physical is off the agenda for us for reasons I think are pretty complicated but aren't the issue for me at the moment), I am making it "small."  You said "it's no smaller than it actually is, right?"

I think a lot of my disquiet lies in not being sure about that.  He applies the ceiling of "friends."  It has its real problems (that he uses it against any assertion or expectation I have in the relationship, and it's at some level deeply dishonest -- we are not just "friends".  But I apply the matching ceiling of limited emotional access.  He wants to Skype on Christmas (not this Christmas -- a couple years back), I say no, that doesn't match the way he's defined the r/s.  He wants to meet someone close to me who is very ill, sort of in order to more fully understand my life and what is meaningful to me, and to know this person before/in case they die, so he'll be able to understand who she was to me.  I say no -- I'd love that if he were my person/partner, of course, but that's something partners do, not something friends do.  At every turn, I am the one scaling us back to less meaningful, less frequent, interactions.  And I don't know that I agree that what I would be scaling it back to is no smaller than it actually is.  He would probably tell you that I am just limited by a failure of imagination to see that we could, as "friends," have a remarkable, deep, real, life-long, meaningful relationship.  Simone de Beauvoir and Sartre did it, May Ray and Louise Brooks did it, it isn't completely out of the question to have this muse-style life long connection that is "bigger" than what I allow if I enforce my own boundaries.

Is that pseudo intimacy or just an unusual kind of intimacy?  Is it compromised because it comes with an inherent limit on a certain kind of closeness, and a near certainty that he will continually profess true love to others that, episodically, he believes is deeper than what we have?  I just don't know.  With respect to this exclusivity/commitment issue, I do think it's possible that it's my own preconception about how love and intimacy are supposed to work, especially, that they are supposed to be exclusive and that it means something about me if my person/partner does not want to be exclusive, that is getting in the way of our having a "bigger," intimate, undefined, relationship.  He would certainly say that is the case.

The part that I just cannot get past even when I push myself to be brave and iconoclastic, though, is that, for this to work for him, it seems like it has to come without any consideration of the importance of this connection to me, when he needs to leave it, set it aside, de-prioritize it, because of a momentary need to flee, to deny, to repulse, to pursue another partner.  And because it depends on me never asserting any kind of claim on the thing, on its continuation, never depending on it, never needing something he doesn't feel like doing at the moment.  It's because of this aspect that I say that it feels like I'm being used or taken for granted.  And I don't know how to respond to that with boundaries, other than the kind I'm using right now, the very black and white boundary of "if you aren't willing to speak with me about my view of this, and how we can go forward in a way that works for each of us -- I can't do it at all."  All of my efforts ever to assert my own needs or point of view in this relationship have been punished.  We're only on good terms when I stop making any assertions like that.  "A friendship without preconditions" is all that works for him.  And somehow I balk at the complete elimination of my own authorship of this thing we do, at having to just accept the terms he sets and finds most comfortable.  And that feels "enabling."

MS, what you write about accepting that he is who is, that he is not going to change or become capable of more, makes great sense.  What I'm struggling with is how to square that with the concept of not "enabling."  These behaviors (fleeing from real exposure and commitment, not necessarily the multiple partners thing) ARE antithetical to real intimacy, I fundamentally agree.  Given that, if we keep participating and giving meaningful closeness, are we not enabling this approach to life and other humans? I'm wondering about that because I could, of course, reach out, begin a more limited communication that is "small" or "smaller" than what he wants, enforce my own boundaries more consistently, give up hope of him changing.  But if I do that, am I not somehow communicating that this is viable?  In some ways I see our relationship and its relative consistency and meaning as a crutch for him.  Like all of us I've heard many times that we are not supposed to enable dysfunctional coping strategies.  How does this get reconciled with radical acceptance and continued engagement?

[MaybeSo]

I don't mind having a reasonable, limited emotional attachment to my ex, it's just not the same kind of relationship as being in a couple.  B/C we are just friends, not a couple.

i'm emotionally involved/attached to a degree to all my freinds.  I provide emotional access to them, and it's reciprocal.  I think that's part of friendship.

But, I don't french kiss my friends.  I don't gaze into their eyes and plan our future together with a friend, or take vows, or get engaged,  or sleep with them or stay up all night every night talking to them on the phone.

I mean, there's a difference in a lot of areas b/t friendship and and being a mate; while in some regards there is overlap. 

But as friends, there's no sex, romance, etc. So that's a boundary.  I don't date my friends.

If a friend of mine wanted to stay only friends but have sex with me, I'd say no.

If a friend of mine wanted to stay only fiends but court me like I'm a mate, or kiss me, or demanded my resources as though I'm a wife... .I'd say no, b/c that would be weird. 

My ex tried to kiss me when we took a walk in a field about 3 months ago... .and i stopped him b/c it's weird and it's a boundary... .I'm not his GF.  I don't hold hands and kiss my friends.  I told him that.  He was a bit disappointed but he got it.  He would have loved for us to fall into that peak experience stuff he loves so much, but I just am not doing it anymore!  It is not sustainable with him, it's like groundhog day the movie, over and over.  He has a mental illness so he at least has an excuse, but what is mine?  Come on, it's been ten years!  I can't pretend I don't know where this would go!  So I tell him NO.  And I don't let him kiss me.  I don't CARE if it bothers him, too bad!  Too bad!  I get to have my own life.  I get to say NO!   I don't know what is the deal with your guy, but my guy does have SOME insight into why I don't want to do that anymore!  He does know that he has hurt me and the past, and that his actions have been confusing in the past.  When I told him NO he said... ."I get it, I get it."  And I didn't see him for a while after that.

I know others have unconventional relationships, and I'm not saying I'd never have an unconventional relationship. Lord knows the last 10 years has been unconventional.   But, I've seen the pattern with my ex soo many times play out like clockwork... that I'd have to be daft to say I don't understand that he is not cut out for a committed, stable relationship.  I mean, how many times does a guy have to bail b/f you get that he doesn't do stable?  We BOTH know he is NOT sticking around. He is NOT stable.  His feelings will change and he flows with his feelings.  He and I have done the get together again thing too many times to even count.  It always has led to the same unstable outcome.   

I don't take his overtures seriously P&C.  You have to consider the source.  I like the things we have in common that have NOTHING to do with seduction or romance or any of that b.s.; how are the kids? how's the business?  did you get the new car?  how's your health? what happened to so and so?  etc.etc. I'm just interested in how he is doing and his general life etc.  I'm not in the running to be his GF or his psuedo GF or his unconventional GF.

[unicorn2014]

Interesting thread, I too am in an unconventional relationship, what is other wise known as complicated.

I appreciate this talk about the ex wanted to kiss you.

When I first told my husband to leave he tried to kiss me after and I was like no. I don't do recycles. When I tell someone to go, I mean it.

[MaybeSo]

He would probably tell you that I am just limited by a failure of imagination to see that we could, as "friends," have a remarkable, deep, real, life-long, meaningful relationship.  Simone de Beauvoir and Sartre did it, May Ray and Louise Brooks did it, it isn't completely out of the question to have this muse-style life long connection that is "bigger" than what I allow if I enforce my own boundaries.

These experiences are available to you if you want them P&C.

I have stretched myself at times outside the limits of what I would normally consider traditional relationship structures with this man.  I have taken some risks. When I have done that I still need to make sure I am taking care of myself.  To me that means:

1-Knowing myself well

2-Making a conscious choice (taking ownership) of my decision to take a risk that might feel different or fall outside my usual boundaries.

3-Taking a mature & realistic perspective about my motivations for risk taking;  if it's heavily laden with a feel of compromising myself in the hopes that my risk will change or impact another person, that's a strong signal to me that I'm not in integrity.  My job is not to change people, and I'm outside of integrity when that is my focus.  Also, I imagine taking the risk and the possibility of it not going well or being unsatisfying.  If I can't imagine digesting that experience in a way that could be useful or integrated into my sense of self, I'd probably not take the risk.  

4-If I feel solid about the above, then I may move forward with taking a risk in a relationship.

I like David Schnarch's 4 Points of Balance as a guide for living a healthy emotional life:

1st Point of Balance: Solid Flexible Self™

Many people lack a solid sense of themselves. They have no real identity of their own.

They get emotionally claustrophobic or overly dependent in committed relationships.

Or they're rigid, brittle, controlling, and bend their relationships to fit their own needs and wants.

Or they become increasingly dependent--emotionally fused--with their partner.

To the degree you lack a solid sense of self you depend on a reflected sense of self. You depend on getting a positive reflected sense of self from other people. Many people say they want intimacy, but what they're looking for is:

Validation,

Acceptance,

Unconditional love

There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel validated, accepted and dearly loved. But if you depend on a reflected sense of self, you crash when these aren't forthcoming, and you spend lots of time talking about "safety and security," "abandonment," and vulnerability.

When you have solid flexible self:

You have an internalized set of core values by which you run your life.

You have a sense of your own self worth that perseveres through hard time.

You can maintain your own viewpoints and sense of direction when others pressure you to conform.

You draw your sense of personal stability, values, and direction from within yourself, which comes from frequently confronting yourself (from the best in yourself) that you could be wrong.

You don't always have to be right, and you don't crash when you're wrong.

Solid Flexible Self is not a rigid self. Being able to adapt and change when prudent is just as import as staying the course. Flexibility:

lets you learn from your mistakes.

lets you change roles when your children leave home or you retire.

lets other people to be right sometimes.

makes room for your partner in your relationship.

Solid Flexible Self lets you stand on your own two feet in a relationship--without always standing on your partner’s toes.

2nd Point of Balance: Quiet Mind & Calm Heart™

Soothe your own mind and heart

The second basis of emotionally healthy living involves handling your own emotional inner world.

Quiet Mind & Calm Heart is our way of helping you do that.

There are two inter-related parts to developing an emotionally healthy inner world.

Your thoughts

Your feelings and emotions

Your body's physical response to both

This means getting control of where all these take place. In practical terms this means three things:

Quieting your mind

Calming your heart

Focusing on your physical reactions

In practice this means:

Controlling your anxiety so it doesn't run away with you

Handling your feelings and emotions

Soothing your emotional bruises

Monitoring your body

Many people have difficulty soothing their own emotions and/or calming their anxiety. Developing Quiet Mind & Calm Heart not only makes your own life better, it lets other people live better too.

3rd Point of Balance: Grounded Responding™

Getting emotionally grounded

Over-reacting to tense or anxiety-filled situations is a common problem. Unbalanced, untimely, or disproportionate responses are one of the most common ways people ruin their lives. This is NOT grounded responding. This includes people:

with explosive tempers with "short fuses"

who say cutting things in difficult conversations.

who break collaborative alliances whenever they get hurt.

who are always yelling at their kids.

who go to pieces over little things,

Under-reacting (avoidance) is also NOT Grounded Responding. It's not as obvious and more socially acceptable. Sometimes avoidance masquerades as Grounded Responding but it's not. It is commonly excused as procrastination. You’re not making grounded responses if you fail to react or take action when necessary.

When your kids need discipline and you're just not feeling like doing it.

You're concerned your child is showing signs of learning disabilities but you don't seek help.

You know your partner's having an affair, but you say nothing because you don't want to upset the status quo.

Grounded Responding involves making modulated responses to people, events, and situations. There's an old saying that completely contradicts common emphasis on expressing feelings and frustrations. It says, "Marriage is improved by the two or three things not said each day."

4th Point of Balance: Meaningful Endurance™

Tolerating discomfort for growth

Of all things that determine success in life, perhaps the most important is Meaningful Endurance, the 4th Point of Balance.

Very little gets accomplished in life without Meaningful Endurance. Endurance increases your chances of success in marriage, parenting, families, and careers.

Meaningful Endurance is the basis of mastery. You cannot master a new skill, refine your abilities, develop your talent, learn new things, or expand your personality without Meaningful Endurance.

Sticking with things so you can accomplish your goals

Making yourself do what needs to be done, even when you don’t want to do it

Absorbing hardship and disappointment, bouncing back after defeat

Withstanding stress

Meaningful Endurance is not blind perseverance, stubbornness, or refusal to face facts. It is not stupid pain-for-no-purpose. It is not simply high pain tolerance, or accepting a lousy relationship.



Meaningful Endurance is about tolerating pain for growth. If there's no growth, it's not meaningful.

Many people lack Meaningful Endurance.

[patientandclear]

I concur with all the above, MS, and thank you for sharing it.

I believe I'm basically in the emotionally healthy place described above, partly due to work I did after I got out of an abusive marriage, and partly due to trauma recovery work since the breakup of my explicitly romantic r/ship with the man I post here about. But my unease with where I am with the BPD man in my life lies in recognizing that some of my reactions to hurtful choices he's made, while not "overreactions" in any normal analysis, are overreactions as far as he's concerned, because he converts any attempt by me to comment on or affect how things goes with us as controlling or rejecting or threatening. Here, my request to talk and then withdrawal unless he would talk is undoubtedly viewed as a complete unwillingness to recognize the bad feelings that he experiences when we have these conversations. I value him and our relationship greatly and am willing to be very flexible within the bounds of my integrity to myself to make it work with/for him. I can think of ways I could have proceeded that would have remained in integrity with myself and not felt to him like such a threatening withdrawal of connection unless I got my way.

As to the larger question of what would work for me with this man who resists and sabotages stable commitment: yes, I know the choice of the muse role is available to me. I don't want to play that role, at least, not with someone who is still pursuing some imaginary other person for the "love of my life" role. I am interested in maintaining my intimate connection with this guy if he is interested in growth and building and staying in a relationship of integrity, however defined. Otherwise, no. I'm not uncertain about that part. My doubts have to do with whether I ruled myself out of a productive growth-oriented warm mutually affirming process with him by randomly asserting a need that was not at all flexible and on which I conditioned further access to me. Since that "need" was not something like "a ring on my finger" or "you better show up in my city on X date or we're done," or "you have to attend my family Christmas," but rather, "at some time and place in the relatively near future I need to tell you some things that bear on how (not whether) we mutually decide go forward, and I need to hear from you what you think the implications are, and ideally, we reach a meeting of the minds about what to expect from each other," I'm not sure it's the kind of "need" that one really can or should be flexible about, though. That is where I am stuck. If I was sure it was OK to be flexible on this I would have revised my position a few days into this standoff. I'm just not sure.

And I miss him, and it feels like the cost of my position is very high.

[patientandclear]

It occurs to me that one other consideration is driving my unwillingness to move off my somewhat arbitrary "we need to talk" stance.

It's that, if I do, all growth opportunity from this expensive re-engagement and break will be lost.  He will be glad to, at first grudgingly and then more graciously, accept me "back" on his terms.  Absolutely the only way to achieve any progress on the point that this relationship has to have two authors,  not just one (him), will come if I do NOT shift my position now -- even if I could have been gentler about it, even if I could have offered alternatives, even if I could have remained in some contact while drawing back (which still upsets him).  He has only once been willing to explorer the meta questions about our relationship with me since the initial decision to break up -- I can't emphasize enough how literally true this is.  One typical time, I asked him a question about why he made the "friends" decision, he "lost" the email he supposedly wrote in response in his drafts folder, stayed silent for weeks, wondered why I hadn't responded to the email he did not send, when I reached out a second time he was surprised to realize he never answered ... .but then he never did answer, and we just proceeded on his terms.

The one time he was willing to engage the larger dynamics with me, allow me some role in defining the terms on which we went forward, was when I not only accepted his "have a good life!" response to a boundary, but also, declined to re-engage at all unless something fundamental had shifted about the way he was approaching our relationship.  I was very clear (and remain very clear) that I was not willing to be close to him on the terms he had engineered previously (where he was not acknowledging our relationship, was seeing others and was concealing that from me in order to continue to do our thing too).  Only then was growth on the table.  So I think it may be squandering the best chance there is for actual growth if I back away from the limit I set, even if it wasn't ideal -- because to him that will mean none of that needs to be taken seriously, and in the end, he can maintain what we do on the terms that he prefers, and all is well.

I haven't given up on growth -- I guess that explains a lot about my current uncertainty, doubt, but also, reluctance to change my approach.  Maybe I need to (give up on growth).  Maybe that is the point of MaybeSo's observations about people not changing such fundamental traits and impulses.

[1989]

Is it the "feeling of specialness" because it's YOU that he keeps doing this with that causes you to believe you can prevail if you can just get it right?  Is it because he doesn't return again and again to the "others" that leads you to believe you "really are the one" if he could let go of the fantasy of "the perfect one?"

Do you see the parallel between the time he was open to discuss the relationship and all the times MabeSo's guy wanted to try again?  She has learned through experience that he can't be in a stable, committed relationship.  She has accepted it will never be because he can't do it.  She no longer believes in the fantasy because after 10 years, nothing has changed.

What will it take for you to accept that nothing you do can change him?  You can't make him stable.  You can't make him committed.  You can't prevent his feelings from changing.  You can't stop him from withdrawing.  And you can't prevent him from chasing after the next one.  You can't do it by being there for him OR by not being there for him.

You can't change him.  You can only accept that he will never be a stable, committed partner.  You can allow him your ear and shoulder when he needs it or you can cut him out of your life. Those are your only options.

Don't confuse returning to you in a psuedo intimate way with wanting to be your romantic partner again.  Think about Conundrum's experience;  his boundaries, and his availability, changed nothing.

[MaybeSo]

I haven't given up on growth -- I guess that explains a lot about my current uncertainty, doubt, but also, reluctance to change my approach.  Maybe I need to (give up on growth).

Whose growth are you talking about?  The only person you are responsible for is you and your growth.

I do not intend to send the message of hopelessness/helplessness when it come to personal growth.  I certainly have never given up on growth.  But, I focus on my growth, and not his.   I'm quite clear that my own growth is ongoing and whatever I'm choosing... .my focus is to grow from my experiences. Including the disappointing ones.  Or the ones that didn't turn out how I thought it would be or the way I hoped it would be.

I don't have any control over his growth, only my own.  I started the r/s thinking he needed me or that I was going to be an agent of change and growth for this person who needed it.   My growth has been in recognizing that this is not an appropriate or loving role for me to take with another human being.  He is who he is. I try to focus on my own growth and wellbeing.  I have no control over someone else.

Maybe that is the point of MaybeSo's observations about people not changing such fundamental traits and impulses.

I am a huge believer in growth and people's capacity to grow and change.  What I don't think is healthy or productive, is a focus on how and why another person should grow and change, or in what ways they need to grow and change.  I can say my EX has grown A LOT in the last 10 years. A LOT.  He has taken his business from a very small earning company and grown it to be a signifiant enterprise.  He has involved  himself in a sport that he loves, which is a huge accomplishment for someone who had so little sense of self that he had no idea what he wanted to do with his free time;  now he has a really rewarding hobby.  He has done a lot of Anger Management work.   He has grown and changed, he just hasn't grown in the way I wanted him to or in a way that would suit MY preferences for a committed stable r/s partner.  Just b/c he hasn't grown in a way that is specific to my personal r/s needs, doesn't discount his growth.

I would imagine your guy has done some growing, too.    

People do grow and change all the time.  They don't always do it in the ways we want them to do it.  The intimacy thing may be a ceiling for some.

I think the magic happens when we are looking at what WE need to do to grow and meet our needs, and explore where our own growth-edge is.

My caution is that you not engage with anyone (friend, lover, business partner) with the hope or intent that you will change them in some fundamental or significant way. It's just NOT a good basis for a relationship.  We know this, right?  We know this from basic r/s advice.  My goal is to accept people as they are.  If I cannot tolerate having them in my life (in whatever capacity that might be) as they are, then it's up to me to take care of myself.  That may mean not having them in my life.  It's still a focus on self-care, and an acceptance of people as they ARE.

If I tell my EX "we need to talk"... .I probably wouldn't hear from him for six months!

In fact... .I might have to use that one next time I need a break!  I can't think of a quicker way to see him disappear for a while then to announce we need to talk.  

[patientandclear]

I haven't given up on growth -- I guess that explains a lot about my current uncertainty, doubt, but also, reluctance to change my approach.  Maybe I need to (give up on growth).

Whose growth are you talking about?  ... .

My caution is that you not engage with anyone (friend, lover, business partner) with the hope or intent that you will change them in some fundamental or significant way. It's just NOT a good basis for a relationship.  We know this, right?  We know this from basic r/s advice.  My goal is to accept people as they are.  If I cannot tolerate having them in my life (in whatever capacity that might be) as they are, then it's up to me to take care of myself.  That may mean not having them in my life.  It's still a focus on self-care, and an acceptance of people as they ARE.

Yeah -- I think I'm pretty pristine on this front, maybe to a fault.  I never, not for one instant, asked this man to change for me.  To the contrary, I assessed what he was up to as far as I could make it out (because he is the opposite of an open book -- he compartmentalizes and conceals more effectively than anyone I've heard of), determined whether that could work for me, then, made whatever changes were necessary.  In all this time, I have never, not one time, asked him to change for me or for us.  That means I let him re-define us as friends though it made no sense to me and was incongruous with how he was acting.  It means when he suddenly decided to move, I was supportive.  It means when he converted that move from an indefinite travel adventure intended to end up back at our city, to a permanent move to a city halfway across the country for no apparent particular reason, I told him I would continue on in my then-capacity as a pen pal, but that the move would mean something important was lost (which it did).  When he handled that message poorly, I scurried after him to reassure him that I wasn't going anywhere or anything, just wanted to let him know that his decision had an impact on me.  (It took him weeks to forgive me.)  Then, when he was seeing someone else after we'd repaired and been beautifully, exquisitely, but ambiguously, close, I didn't ask him not to, though he pushed me to say what was wrong.  Instead, I just told him I would need to pull back, unless I had misunderstood something.  He told me to have a nice life.  THEN, when he came back around asking me what was the price of me coming back into his life, and he figured out I wanted monogamy, intimacy and commitment, and he offered those things, I did NOT accept his offer.  I didn't because I knew it wasn't something he wanted, he was purchasing my company, and one more time, I was true to the idea of not wanting to change him.

Indeed, his major complaint with me during those conversations last spring was that I was TOO reticent to tell him what I need and want, causing me to just leave when he wanted a chance to meet my needs and thus keep me in his life.  Which I tried to do this time, only to be told he wasn't up to it.

When I say "I haven't given up on growth," I mean the growth of the relationship itself -- not his growth.  My conscience is at peace that I have left that entirely to him, all this time.

If I tell my EX "we need to talk"... .I probably wouldn't hear from him for six months!

In fact... .I might have to use that one next time I need a break!  I can't think of a quicker way to see him disappear for a while then to announce we need to talk.  

So this is actually almost the first time since this thread started that anyone has actually engaged me on the thing I was asking about at the outset.  I never before had asked him to talk.  I have regrets about doing it this time because I know it's like kryptonite to many people with BPD (hearing "we need to talk" and because it is so not my style.  But I DID in fact need to convey to him that I was only OK with what we were doing IF he would treat it as an exclusive relationship.  If he didn't want to do that, that's fine, but then I'd need to change how we were relating.  He'd been reacting strangely and frantically to my limiting our communication to things friends would do.  I needed to explain, it seemed, so he would not have the mis-impression I was fine with being so close and him pursuing other women.

He lives in another city.  It's not something that could just come up over lunch without some planning.  I really, really didn't want to wade into this stuff by email.  He and I have had our biggest breaks due to email (and indeed that proved to repeat here, as he basically reached the conclusion of the conversation I wanted, without me participating, by email).

I've been agonizing about "should I not have drawn this line in the sand about talking?" for all this time.  If I could see an alternative (which is why I was posting about this originally) I would probably have tried to walk this back.  What is the alternative?

[unicorn2014]

Maybe so wrote

My caution is that you not engage with anyone (friend, lover, business partner) with the hope or intent that you will change them in some fundamental or significant way. It's just NOT a good basis for a relationship.  We know this, right?  We know this from basic r/s advice.  My goal is to accept people as they are.  If I cannot tolerate having them in my life (in whatever capacity that might be) as they are, then it's up to me to take care of myself.  That may mean not having them in my life.  It's still a focus on self-care, and an acceptance of people as they ARE.

This is good advice. This is what my former sponsor told me about my partner, this is what my partner and my former therapist  told me about my father, this is what my d15 told me about her father, the list goes on. I congratulate anyone who is able to follow this advice.

[unicorn2014]

Patient and clear wrote

To the contrary, I assessed what he was up to as far as I could make it out (because he is the opposite of an open book -- he compartmentalizes and conceals more effectively than anyone I've heard of), determined whether that could work for me, then, made whatever changes were necessary.

Except for my guy, , who told me he was murky but he was trying as hard as he could not to be murky with me.

I appreciate reading your thread, its very insightful.

[MaybeSo]

   

Re: I somehow, without meaning to, have set "talking" as a line in the sand [Part 2]« Reply #51 on: Today at 01:04:52 AM »

Quote from: MaybeSo on Yesterday at 04:51:51 PM

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I haven't given up on growth -- I guess that explains a lot about my current uncertainty, doubt, but also, reluctance to change my approach.  Maybe I need to (give up on growth).

Whose growth are you talking about?  ... .

My caution is that you not engage with anyone (friend, lover, business partner) with the hope or intent that you will change them in some fundamental or significant way. It's just NOT a good basis for a relationship.  We know this, right?  We know this from basic r/s advice.  My goal is to accept people as they are.  If I cannot tolerate having them in my life (in whatever capacity that might be) as they are, then it's up to me to take care of myself.  That may mean not having them in my life.  It's still a focus on self-care, and an acceptance of people as they ARE.

Yeah -- I think I'm pretty pristine on this front, maybe to a fault.  I never, not for one instant, asked this man to change for me.  To the contrary, I assessed what he was up to as far as I could make it out (because he is the opposite of an open book -- he compartmentalizes and conceals more effectively than anyone I've heard of), determined whether that could work for me, then, made whatever changes were necessary.  In all this time, I have never, not one time, asked him to change for me or for us.  That means I let him re-define us as friends though it made no sense to me and was incongruous with how he was acting.  It means when he suddenly decided to move, I was supportive.  It means when he converted that move from an indefinite travel adventure intended to end up back at our city, to a permanent move to a city halfway across the country for no apparent particular reason, I told him I would continue on in my then-capacity as a pen pal, but that the move would mean something important was lost (which it did).  When he handled that message poorly, I scurried after him to reassure him that I wasn't going anywhere or anything, just wanted to let him know that his decision had an impact on me.  (It took him weeks to forgive me.)  Then, when he was seeing someone else after we'd repaired and been beautifully, exquisitely, but ambiguously, close, I didn't ask him not to, though he pushed me to say what was wrong.  Instead, I just told him I would need to pull back, unless I had misunderstood something.  He told me to have a nice life.  THEN, when he came back around asking me what was the price of me coming back into his life, and he figured out I wanted monogamy, intimacy and commitment, and he offered those things, I did NOT accept his offer.  I didn't because I knew it wasn't something he wanted, he was purchasing my company, and one more time, I was true to the idea of not wanting to change him.

Indeed, his major complaint with me during those conversations last spring was that I was TOO reticent to tell him what I need and want, causing me to just leave when he wanted a chance to meet my needs and thus keep me in his life.  Which I tried to do this time, only to be told he wasn't up to it.

P&C, there's a tendancy to take an idea and have the pendulum swing way high to the extreme with that idea.   So yes, it's agreed, it's not healthy to engage in a r/s with the idea that you can't accept the person unless he fundmentally changes core aspects of self or behavior and then set about a campaign to help or pursuade that person to improve or change in the way you would like to see him improve or change.   That's what I was talking about.  That's of course, not a very healthy r/s dynamic.

However... .What you describe above as an example of how you NEVER do this... .is actually a style of conflict avoidance. It really doesn't speak to what I said about not engaging in a r/s with the need to change a person.   Conflict avoidance usually means a person is unwilling to assertively self-define their needs, in exchange for accommodation and an easy going manner over a long period of time in the hopes that things will work out the way they want if they are just nice  and accommodating enough.  THAT is what you are describing.  You say yourself, you do this to a fault. That's still engaging in a r/s where you hope someone will fundamentally change... .but via accommodation and playing nice.  So, I don't think when I say it's not healthy to engage in a r/s where you would need someone to fundamentally change, that we are talking about the same thing here.  Of course you HAVE to speak -up in a r/s.  Of course you have to ask for things and set boundaries in a r/s.  Just b/c someone has a voice and asserts themselves, it doesn't put them into a category of hanging on to the idea that they can't be happy unless a partner fundamentally changes.  You are describing conflict avoidance and accommodation, which is a way people hope to change and influence the r/s dynamics of the r/s while soothing their anxiety through avoidance of the elephant in the room. I hope you see, this is not good r/s dynamics.   The hope is I will get a pay off eventually for my accommodation. Usually this style finds themselves ending up in an angry resistent position which you describe.  NO!  Now I don't want what I wouldn't make a stand for but really wanted all along... .b/c after all these months of accommodation and conflict avoidance, I'm pissed and now I don't trust it from you!   And with good reason!  You both can't trust each other b/c you aren't being true to yourself.  So, I don't agree that you are pristine is focusing on yourself and not the other person's change or growth, or at least, I don't think you example is speaking to that.  I'd say you are pretty conflict avoidant and that is your go-to place. And it's not a good way to have a r/s.   That's just my opinion, I of course could be wrong.   But your paragraph... .describing your stance... .could be used as an example of a conflict avoidant approach to a  r/s problem.  NOT asserting yourself in a r/s is NOT healthy for the r/s.    Asserting yourself and sticking up for yourself isn't the same thing as signing on to a r/s with a person where you are intent on changing some core personality trait they possess or are only there hanging on in the hopes that some core feature of who they are will change.  

And let's be clear here.  I don't ask my ex to talk anymore b/c he CAN'T do it!

He cannot tolerate normal intimacy. All over the world, husbands and wives, bfs and gfs, freinds and lovers are saying to eachother today... ."Hey, we need to talk"... .and guess what... .they talk.  They don't leave town, sleep with other people, or otherwise completely freak-out b/c their partner wants to talk.

But people who cannot handle a real intimate relationship DO!

Is that what you want?  Is that what you are pining for?  A r/s with a man who is that limited?  P&C... .be careful what you wish for.  If you get involved with him, you get who he is.  He can't do intimacy.  Is it just a different kind of intimacy?  Yes, it's intimacy light. It's intimacy pablum, just the sweet soft morsels he can digest that suit him and aren't to hard to digest.    Is that what you want?  We can all do whatever we like, it's fine.  But, this seems to be intimacy for people who can't do real intimacy.  B/C real intimacy is HARD, it's no walk in the park.  You have to have a solid sense of self to manage intimacy. Do you think the guys we are talking about have a solid flexible sense of self?  ARe they good at self soothing?  Do they manage anxiety well?  NO!  You have to do those things to manage intimacy P&C.   

Do you want real intimacy?  Real intimacy is a husband who stays with you not just through a tense talk about the relationship, but is there by your side when you get cancer.  When your child is in the hospital. When your elderly parent is dying.  That's intimacy P&C.  

These guys offer something, but it's NOT THAT.

What do you really want?  Why not work on your r/s skills with a man who is capable of HAVING a r/s?  Just a thought.

For me, that is my goal going forward.

[MaybeSo]

BTW, a lot of the folks who ARE in struggling r/s here on these boards at least has a partner who stays. Not all, but many on the staying part of the board, have a partner who stays engaged, even if threatening at times to leave,  even if the r/s can be rocky and confusing... .they stay.  They stay and play.  

The men we are talking about do not stay. They leave over and over again, they don't just threaten to leave, they pack-up and they leave and move out and sleep with other women and b/c involved with others over and over again.  These men leave and then want to return for more intimacy-light and they do this over and over again. That speaks volumes about a person's capacity and true interest in actual intimacy, for both people involved.

[Conundrum]

BTW, a lot of the folks who ARE in struggling r/s here on these boards at least has a partner who stays. Not all, but many on the staying part of the board, have a partner who stays engaged, even if threatening at times to leave,  even if the r/s can be rocky and confusing... .they stay.  They stay and play.  

The men we are talking about do not stay. They leave over and over again, they don't just threaten to leave, they pack-up and they leave and move out and sleep with other women and b/c involved with others over and over again.  These men leave and then want to return for more intimacy-light and they do this over and over again. That speaks volumes about a person's capacity and true interest in actual intimacy, for both people involved.

I think that is true about a subset of people with BPD, and it is not exclusive to gender. What I find interesting is how want and need are often commingled within the forces that drive them. I cannot know for certain, but in my experience it appears to be ball of confusion that is always in motion. The engine that drives that ball remains on auto pilot, and the ball proceeds on cyclic track revolving around a disordered nucleus. Within the nucleus I believe lie the protons/neutrons of the core childhood trauma. Those needs/want often appear anti-relational when colliding against alleged traditional romantic relational needs/wants. The resulting synthesis may produce kaleidoscope patterns that are beautiful for a time but as we often see here, leave one or both parties profoundly dissatisfied.

As mentioned one can never change another's want/need cycle. That must always come from within that particular person. Assuming arguendo that a pwBPD who previously manifested what we label as maladaptive relational needs--actually/successfully changes (the want/need cycle) thereby becoming relationally stable to an adequate degree--then that begs the question--what is the agent of change?

In my experience, those changes are rare, but when they do occur follow a holistic pattern:

The disordered persons want/need cycle drives them to the darkest of precipices, sometimes they jump--and hopefully survive. Which is a metaphor for the consequences of their maladaptive cycles piercing through to their inner sanctum. That place where they have always hidden and sought sanctuary. And there on that dark precipice, in that inner sanctum, something approaching the miraculous happens. They face the engine that dives those wants/needs and deconstruct it. They see those elements for what they are. A mechanism that was pre-programmed into them within childhood--and they begin to heal. They understand that they no longer have to be driven by those wants/needs and that they can master their destinies instead of being enslaved to compromised needs/wants. When those watershed moment or moments are experienced it is often concomitant with a receptiveness towards evidence based therapy and healing the core wound. It is not a perfects process, though it is real. There may be relapse but it is a progressive endeavor towards the light.

I think in these relationships that challenge us, there are those with BPD who embrace progressive systemic healing, and those who do not. I believe that the former offer many beautiful unique relational romantic aspects that can be shared in a fulfilling manner--though I believe that the road with the latter will be very difficult comprised of suffering. I believe that healing rarely if ever occurs until they face the consequences of their actions in a profoundly self-authentic manner. I believe for a non, it is a very important question to ask oneself, at a core level--what they believe about their person with BPD. Are they in the former camp or latter--meaning will they choose to heal themselves? For I believe that desire--the self-desire to end suffering is what fosters sustainable healing.

[MaybeSo]

Thank you for that Conundrum.  Interesting insight into potential for growth or healing.  I think at some level you are describing a spiritual awakening often precipitated by hitting rock bottom.  Rock bottom meaning... .it really really has to hurt.  I think the adaptation of dusting one self off and puffing ones self up on the quest to find the perfect one, is probably a really interesting and sticky adaptation, not as easily given up as say, a drug addiction where one finds themselves literally and figuratively AT rock bottom, close to death, having lost everyone and everything including your health.   I have mentioned b/f that I see this adaptation of being on the quest to find perfect love,  to be in some ways healthier and more pro-social, b/c we live in a culture that embraces the idea of perfect love, and it's doesn't hurt your health the way other crutches do, at least not as obviously.  The families and individuals directly affected by this adapatation may argue otherwise b/c we feel the sting of it in some very personal ways,  but my ex is often eager to point out that he does not numb his pain with drugs or alcohol likes so many other tortured souls.  He's just a romantic at heart, in love with the idea of being in love.  Everyone is different, I'm reflecting on my experience with the person I know.  

Being in his life has been a mirror for me in that I've had to look at my own propensity to be in love with idealized forms of love I had floating around in my head,  too, and have had to go through some very painful growing pains, very painful growing pains, about my own unrealistic expectations around love and intimacy.  My own issues I can see CLEARLY helped make me so much more tied into and open to a person such as my EX. I really was not very grown-up and grounded about love, either, and I probably will always be catching up a bit.    I understand why, I have connected the dots, but it's something that I will have to take full responsibility for and maintain my awareness for the rest of my life.  And it's not easy, but that's okay.  No one said it would be. An argument could be made that this has caused a real growth edge in my life because I have been in so much pain and have had rock bottom moments of angst and very dark night of the soul periods b/c of my involvement with my EX.  Those rock bottom moments have spurred my growth. My EX meanwhile continues along with, as far as I know... .no overwhelming dark night of the soul periods.  He sooths himself with the quest for perfect love, he maintains his position and belief in this, so he never 'crashed' the way I have crashed.  

My doubts have to do with whether I ruled myself out of a productive growth-oriented warm mutually affirming process with him by randomly asserting a need that was not at all flexible and on which I conditioned further access to me. Since that "need" was not something like "a ring on my finger" or "you better show up in my city on X date or we're done," or "you have to attend my family Christmas," but rather, "at some time and place in the relatively near future I need to tell you some things that bear on how (not whether) we mutually decide go forward, and I need to hear from you what you think the implications are, and ideally, we reach a meeting of the minds about what to expect from each other,"  

If it helps at all,  P&C  this thing you asked for is obviously quite reasonable.  You know that, right?  It wasn't even HUGE dramatic boundary or limit or request... .and he still bailed.  

I have to share that I just did another training recently with Greg Lester PhD who is an expert with PDs.  A focus he had in working with BPD was this (he is speaking to clinicians but this applies to anyone with a loved one).  B/C of their make-up (not useful to think of it as intentional, just accept this is the programing, the instinct)... .they are MASTERFUL at pulling for a person to feel like they should have the answers, should have the skills, and should have the ability to fix things or make things alright... .and take care of things and rescue them... .that no one can reasonably or should reasonably try to do or fix for another person in the way they pull for it.  It is off the charts.  It will always be off the charts and inappropriate.   They are MASTERFUL at pulling this intense feeling from another person that they have messed-up if they don't submit to this pull... .they are wrong or bad or shameful  if they say no, have a boundary, have a life.   You will feel this way if you are interacting with a person with this disorder.  It is intense. It's ONE of the ways clinicians diagnose it... .because they feel it in the therapy session.   It will be very uncomfortable and your go-to place will be to feed right into, let me fix it, let me smooth it over, let me take care of it, let me find the answers for you... .let me rescue you... .but it's never enough and eventually you WILL get frustrated or pissed off.   This is the dance.   He argues you have to, HAVE TO be able to manage your  own anxiety and NOT try to fix them,  not rescue, not compromise, don't even HINT that you can or will do these things that are not appropriate.  While using skills like SET of course, but... .In fact, with skill, he of course is fully prepared for the pull to fix something... .to make special exceptions or accommodations, and the key is to be perfectly comfortable (or faking it until you are)  in holding your space while saying No I wont do that or NO I can't do that. You can empathize with their frustration... .ya, I can understand how you would feel frustrated... .but the answer is still no.

I think this is probably not the population or the partners that we can have the same amount of flexibility with under more normal circumstances, knowing how this disorder works, I don't think with this population... .that it's a good idea in the long run to keep moving WAY outside your normal comfort zone or your normal value system or your normal limits.  There is NOTHING in the research that indicates this is helpful or good for a person with BPD, for the dynamic in r/s with BPD, rather everything points to things getting worse with this kind of boundary busting if it is accommodated.  It feeds a unhealthy dynamic in the disorder.   I just think that this intense pull to do that is part of the nature of the disorder, and we have to be aware of this and take that into consideration when we have people in our lives with this disorder... .are we really doing them or ourselves a service by falling into this very common pull to move way past normal limits and boundaries.