My dearly beloved narcissistic father and my invalidating mother, part 1

[unicorn2014]

  everyone, I have the apartment to myself tonight so I thought I would take this time to write a little bit about  my father.

On Wednesday I was supposed to take my daughter on the bus into the city to meet my father for a movie. Problems were we had to leave by 9am, my daughter got home at 8:30pm the previous night, we didn't go to sleep until 1am, I have to take a sleep aid to sleep so by 8am when my alarm went off I was in no shape to get up, get my daughter up and get out the door by 9. When I finally made the decision to call it off I texted my dad and he said

I figured that would happen. NO surprise   

So then when I told him

Dad [my daughter] got home at 8:30pm last night. You have never come to [my county] to see a movie , much less on the bus with a teen.

(He doesn't and didn't drive so as consequence neither do I, yet.)

His reply?

Hi. One day we will have a Conversation   

(Here's where he sounds eerily like my partner, whom I'm taking the first 4 day break from in the course of our 3.75 year relationship)

That of course was bait, and I took it as I was not in the best mood so I replied

Dad did you see what I wrote.

We do need to talk so call me when you can.

You are missing some information. (I learned that phrase from my partner)

You have not once come to [my county] to see a movie I want to see. (very true)

(then 11 minutes later since he ignored both my phone call and my text)(and this again, reminds me of my partner)

Hi dad, since you don't care about my reality (yes I know I shouldn't have said that), I"m just going to share it with you. 1. I have $16.08 left in my budget for the week, I"m adding my Christmas money to next month's budget. If I paid for (my daughter) and I to see a movie that would be no money to buy apples.

No response.

The movie was The Big Short which I was skeptical about taking my D15 to, but I figured since I was going and since she watches shows like Scandal, Being Mary Jane, Gossip Girl, and she loves explicit lyrics, this movie would probably be a piece of cake to her. I asked her to watch the trailer but later I found out she didn't, the reason she said she wanted to go is because her friend who is the daughter of a retired investor wanted to go.

My dad did not text or call me until this afternoon I got an email from him that said

Happy New Year, at the ... .Museum on our spaceship.

I haven't responded.

I asked my daughter if she would like to try to go to a movie with my dad next week she said she didn't know.

*****

The second to last session I had with my last therapist she photocopied the diagnostic criteria for NPD from the DSM-IV and gave it to me.

She told me if I wanted to have a relationship with my father I could not shame him for how he was, I needed to accept for how he was, which is a self absorbed narcissistic person.

*****

I will write about my mother in my next thread.

-------

Speak of the devil, while writing this post my dad sent me another email, this one even more provocative.

In front of ... .after checking out her Jewish roots by eating a Reuben sandwich at  ... .on rye. Let's hear it for The Tribe which I often forget you are a member.

Huh?

When I described my dad's communications to my former therapist she categorized it as push pull behavior.

The last time I commented on a picture of my mom that my dad sent me I got in trouble for asking him where she was going. (It was a Halloween picture and she and one of their dogs looked outlandish). My dad sometimes reminds me of my D15 in his responses.

My dad totally ignored my text where I explained to him I couldn't really afford to take my d15 to a movie this week.

I didn't even bother telling him I stayed up late and had to take a sleep aid so I was groggy the next morning. He doesn't care.

Well since I'm not seeing that therapist anymore, perhaps this board can help me along the path of learning how to get along with my narcissistic father.

I'm still mad at him... .

[Turkish]

Your T has a point about not shaming him. The narcissist is an "inflated false self." Tearing into that dysfunctional armor isn't likely to exoose the real man inside; it's part of who he has been for a long time.  We have a little about NPD:

Dealing with narcissists by reinforcing the positive

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Turkish, I just got a third email from my dad about the justice minister of Israel, so I decided to reply to the one with the picture of my mom by saying

Thank you dad. I asked d15 if she wanted to try to see a movie with you next week, she said she didn't know. If not we can try again the following week of Jan 11-16. Happy new year

His response?

hmm

!  

My dad infuriates me, and there's nothing I can do about it.

I had enough of this PA email  so I called him and he didn't answer.

!

When I'm done reading a thread on another board I'll write part 2 of this post, about my invalidating mother.

[Turkish]

It's obvious he triggered you. So was calling him acting, or reacting? Can you ignore at the moment, and step away for a while to process it?

[unicorn2014]

It was reacting, and I got a 4th email from him, with another picture of my mother. I didn't respond to it.

I have an interesting little anecdote to share about my father.

On Christmas day over at my brother's house I was commenting to my brother's girlfriend about how we didn't grow up in a demonstrative household. My dad was quick to point out he was affectionate to our mother. I remember when I was younger I always felt embarrassed when he was affectionate to her, and he was never affectionate to us.

My dad apparently thinks affection is something only one gives one's wife.

That topic would be going down the rabbit hole for me, which I may post about at some point in the future as to how that affected my relationships with males growing up.

When I'm ready I'll post the other half of this post about my mother... .

Anyways my former T described my father's communication pattern as push/pull behavior... .

And she likened him to being stuck in the emotional development stage of a toddler or preschool age child.

My fathers parents divorced when he was 1 and he moved cross country.

He was estranged from his mother when she died last month.

I can have compassion for him but its also very frustrating dealing with him because he's my father and I expect him to be more then he is.

[Turkish]

Not to hijack, but I've long thought of how different my kids would be if they didn't receive affection; healthy mirroring. I hug, hold, and kiss them a lot. Even after I discipline them, I hug them. Children mirror their parents and caregivers, having no other frame of reference. Whatever pain or brokeness we have, I'm determined to not visit that upon my children.

[unicorn2014]

Hijack away! I was not hug, held or kissed as a child. I'm still marveling how my dad responded to my observation that my family wasn't outwardly affectionate. He had no clue that he was supposed to show affection to his children, not just their mother.

[busybee1116]

unicorn, my father is uNPD. I think he is totally baiting you, it's that push-pull. His tone, not answering phone calls, the bizarre texts back. I used to get into these weird email battles with my dad. He's not someone who calls/writes often, but you better believe he's fast to reply when he can one-up or correct me or bait me. The more defensive and for lack of a better term "in trouble" (slept in, can't get your teen on a bus, can't afford a movie) the better he feels about himself. He's better than those around him.  It's a sad way to feed ego, but it works.

Definitely read on this site about JADE and how to avoid it. Read up about communication techniques (SET, DEARMAN, BIFF) too and practice them. Practice them here in threads. Incredibly helpful to me.

I figured that would happen. NO surprise

This text is so triggering to me. It's mean and makes assumptions. There are a million valid reasons you can't make it and you're an adult, you shouldn't have to explain yourself to him other than common courtesy. If this were my dad, I would have had to take a few minutes to think about my response so I don't just react and use JADE. In cases like this, I now try to think... .what is my goal with him? What is he really saying? He is probably disappointed and instead of saying something like "oh, that's too bad, I was looking forward to seeing you," he replies with a mean put down. I'm guessing your goal was: I want to be courteous and inform him that we can't make it. It also sounds like you wish he would visit you and that finances are tight. Is there a way you can meet in the middle somehow figuratively and literally? Could he come to you next time or could you both take a bus and meet half way?

Hi Dad, I imagine it's disappointing for me to cancel our plans so abruptly. It's just not going to work out today. I'll call you next week and we can figure out another movie to see together.

[unicorn2014]

Hi busy bee, thank you for identifying where my JADE tendencies come from. I do this in my romantic relationship too.

No my dad would not come see me, that's the point I was making to him which he ignored.  If I knew we were going to a movie I could set the money aside but it was spur of the moment. I had actually called him the day before to ask him why he was so quiet on Christmas Day and had expressed a desire to go to a movie in the future.

He also is very critical of how I parent my teen. He thinks I should leave her home alone while I take a bus to go see a movie with him in another city.

I am familiar with dear man, I've done DBT and I'm familiar with JADE from al-anon.

My dad sent me a total of 4 emails tonight, didn't answer my call, and replied with a hmm to my reply.

Meanwhile I'm reading about the witch mother in UTBM.

My relationship track record is a testimony to my relationship with my dad: I've only had two long term relationships and both with disordered men, and the future of the second one is not determined right now.

[busybee1116]

It's hard, isn't it? Even when you have a lot of counseling and understanding. Do you want contact with your father? Are there parts of the relationship that are enjoyable to you?

[Sunfl0wer]

She told me if I wanted to have a relationship with my father I could not shame him for how he was, I needed to accept for how he was, which is a self absorbed narcissistic person.

This sounds like excellent advice!

Can you look at your responses to you dad and identify where he may interpret your words as shaming him?

Can you figure out an approach that would sound accepting of who he is?

It sounds like you are trying hard to look at and fix things.  IMHO I think you are likely holding a lot of resentment towards him and you first may want to work through your feelings of resentment and acceptance of him because it is very easy to accidentally react to such a triggering person in a negative manner when you are truthfully feeling resentment.

I think starting with your feelings and thoughts being positive towards your dad could help lead to you having more positive actions towards him.  (Vs negative reactions)

[disillusionedandsore]

I'm sorry to be so blunt but are you expecting him to 'get it' anytime soon if you only explain it one more time,  what a 'proper' father should be? I know I did this for years with my exs,  hoping maybe this time they would put themselves in my shoes,  show me some compassion,  see the light etc... .Needless to say it rarely happened when there was no obvious benefit to them! It's exhausting to keep trying,  it's like beating your head off a wall.  Can you take a big step back from these toxic interactions?

[unicorn2014]

It's hard, isn't it? Even when you have a lot of counseling and understanding. Do you want contact with your father? Are there parts of the relationship that are enjoyable to you?

I most definitely want to have contact with my father. I enjoy going to movies with him, going to lunch with him, seeing him at family functions, talking to him on the phone, emailing with him, texting him. That's not the problem. The problem is he all but ignores me, then he flash floods me these emails, then he gives me a snarky response, then he goes away. Its horrible.

[unicorn2014]

She told me if I wanted to have a relationship with my father I could not shame him for how he was, I needed to accept for how he was, which is a self absorbed narcissistic person.

This sounds like excellent advice!

Can you look at your responses to you dad and identify where he may interpret your words as shaming him?

Can you figure out an approach that would sound accepting of who he is?

See the thing is I don't think I shame him at all, so, I think that's bad advice.

It sounds like you are trying hard to look at and fix things.  IMHO I think you are likely holding a lot of resentment towards him and you first may want to work through your feelings of resentment and acceptance of him because it is very easy to accidentally react to such a triggering person in a negative manner when you are truthfully feeling resentment.

Resentment? Perhaps, but I think my former therapist, who was actually just a social worker, who was only able to see me for 30 minutes at a time, was off the mark when she suggested that I need to not shame my father. I don't think that's what I do at all. But sure, I resent him for not paying attention to me, for not taking me seriously, for belittling what I do with my life, absolutely.

I think starting with your feelings and thoughts being positive towards your dad could help lead to you having more positive actions towards him.  (Vs negative reactions)

I'm actually not having negative actions towards him, what's going on is he is triggering me and amusing himself with my emotional reactions. I wish I had his cold indifference.

What I need to work on is emotionally detaching from him.

[unicorn2014]

I'm sorry to be so blunt but are you expecting him to 'get it' anytime soon if you only explain it one more time,  what a 'proper' father should be? I know I did this for years with my exs,  hoping maybe this time they would put themselves in my shoes,  show me some compassion,  see the light etc... .Needless to say it rarely happened when there was no obvious benefit to them! It's exhausting to keep trying,  it's like beating your head off a wall.  Can you take a big step back from these toxic interactions?

Disillusioned, I'm done with my father about what a proper father is, he knows he failed me, although at times he tries to get me to reassure him that he did a good job. That's not what's going on here. What's going on here is that I need to stop being so desperate for his attention.

Let me tell how you the initial phone call happened on Tuesday which led to the movie date on Wednesday.

I called my dad on Tuesday to talk to him about the ongoing situation with my partner.

I also mentioned to my dad that he seemed cold and distant at Christmas.

He told me that his friend mentioned the same thing and that he thinks he's getting older.

Now, my grandmother, his mother, just died in November, so I think he may be experiencing repressed grief. He was estranged from her, and you want to talk about resentment? He had a cargo ship full of resentment towards her. I also believe she was the BPD matriarch of his side of the family.

So I told my dad I would love to see a movie with him and he said how about The Big Short? Now I knew I had no interest in that movie and I also knew that it was highly unlikely that I would be able to make it on Wednesday because of the fact that my d15 was with her father and would not be coming home till late.

Now here's where the rubber hits the road.

My father thinks I should leave my d15 home alone while I go to a movie with him. Now under normal circumstances that might be acceptable but my d15 has gotten into every kind of trouble imaginable. In fact just last week I had to ground her and take away her phone for lying to me about her whereabouts in front of the police officer I had called because she wasn't home when she was supposed to be and the friend she was supposed to be with had no idea where she was, in fact she had never shown up.

So that's where the rub is with my father.

And let me tell you because of my father's parenting style I too got in every kind of trouble of imaginable when I was 15, and more.

I need to move on to my next post about my invalidating mother so people can get more of a family dynamic picture.

[Sunfl0wer]

On Christmas day over at my brother's house I was commenting to my brother's girlfriend about how we didn't grow up in a demonstrative household. My dad was quick to point out he was affectionate to our mother.

It sounds like your dad was JADEing in response to your comments.  I do not know why he would need to 'defend' himself unless he was somehow offended/shamed or otherwise feeling that he was not being painted in a positive light. 

It may be helpful to consider the possibility that while you feel that you are not shaming your dad, he may feel otherwise.

You cannot change him.  You can only change you.

Focusing on yourself and what you bring to the dynamic and can do differently may be useful to improving things. 

[unicorn2014]

On Christmas day over at my brother's house I was commenting to my brother's girlfriend about how we didn't grow up in a demonstrative household. My dad was quick to point out he was affectionate to our mother.

It sounds like your dad was JADEing in response to your comments.  I do not know why he would need to 'defend' himself unless he was somehow offended/shamed or otherwise feeling that he was not being painted in a positive light.  

I don't think I accurately depicted the situation. When I say he was quick to point out, I neglected to say he had a smirk on his face. He thought my comment was funny. He was not acting defensive at all .

It may be helpful to consider the possibility that while you feel that you are not shaming your dad, he may feel otherwise.

I'm going to have to disagree here. I disagreed with my former social worker/therapist too.  My dad does not get shamed by people. I think perhaps it will be more helpful to talk about my mom since she is the candidate for BPD traits and this is a BPD forum.

You cannot change him.  You can only change you.

Focusing on yourself and what you bring to the dynamic and can do differently may be useful to improving things.  

I am well aware of that and I am not trying to change him.

I think I need to take a step back from this thread. I'm finally a bit triggered.

[busybee1116]

I think I need to take a step back from this thread. I'm finally a bit triggered.

Do take a break if you need to!  

[unicorn2014]

If anyone else finds it interesting that my dad smirked at me please let me know. Basically he was laughing at me when I pointed out to him that our family wasn't very affectionate .

[Turkish]

It's interesting that he invalidated your emotion, but is it surprising

Most of us here mourn that we don't have the parents we wished we had. You've been the daughter of your father your whole life. He doesn't sound like he has the desire to change. Your feelings are real, and you certainly shouldn't invalidate yourself by denying them. However, you have the self-awareness which he lacks. How can you build up that stregnth and protect yourself?

[unicorn2014]

It's interesting that he invalidated your emotion, but is it surprising

Most of us here mourn that we don't have the parents we wished we had. You've been the daughter of your father your whole life. He doesn't sound like he has the desire to change. Your feelings are real, and you certainly shouldn't invalidate yourself by denying them. However, you have the self-awareness which he lacks. How can you build up that stregnth and protect yourself?

That is a good question Turkish. I had wanted him to interact with me more on Christmas but he was just watching the basketball game on TV.

I love my dad, we share the same sun sign, and the same MBTI, and my mom would often tell me I was "just like my dad".

My dad thinks I should leave my daughter home alone unsupervised.

If I even hint at the fact that I will need my daughter's cooperation to participate in an activity he scoffs at me.

He has no empathy for me. I don't know where I put that piece of paper with the narcissistic traits, but I'm pretty sure lack of empathy is one of them.

I haven't responded to his "hmm" email nor called him since yesterday.

I don't know what else to say... .