Accountability

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

Maybe that's why I place such low value on it.  Even if a pwBPD realizes what they've done one minute, their defense mechanisms come sweeping back in the next.  Anything remotely resembling "learning" does not take place.  No real change happens.  When he first reunited with me, I assumed it was kind of a forward momentum, especially when he apologetically tried to undo some of the things he did.  Nope.  There was no momentum.  It was fleeting.  That's why I think it's such a dangerous thing to hope for.  They can give us that "closure" that we so crave, and wipe it away in a heartbeat.  I would say that experienced drastically changed what I feel like I need from him.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

Maybe that's why I place such low value on it.  Even if a pwBPD realizes what they've done one minute, their defense mechanisms come sweeping back in the next.  Anything remotely resembling "learning" does not take place.  No real change happens.  When he first reunited with me, I assumed it was kind of a forward momentum, especially when he apologetically tried to undo some of the things he did.  Nope.  There was no momentum.  It was fleeting.  That's why I think it's such a dangerous thing to hope for.  They can give us that "closure" that we so crave, and wipe it away in a heartbeat.  I would say that experienced drastically changed what I feel like I need from him.

[JaneStorm]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

Maybe that's why I place such low value on it.  Even if a pwBPD realizes what they've done one minute, their defense mechanisms come sweeping back in the next.  Anything remotely resembling "learning" does not take place.  No real change happens.  When he first reunited with me, I assumed it was kind of a forward momentum, especially when he apologetically tried to undo some of the things he did.  Nope.  There was no momentum.  It was fleeting.  That's why I think it's such a dangerous thing to hope for.  They can give us that "closure" that we so crave, and wipe it away in a heartbeat.  I would say that experienced drastically changed what I feel like I need from him.

Exactly. They deny it even happened; even if they are on film, I think they would say they were 'tricked'. Disassociation to the n-th degree.

[C.Stein]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

At least you got to see it for a little bit.  I would be lucky to get 10 minutes with her face to face at this point.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

At least you got to see it for a little bit.  I would be lucky to get 10 minutes with her face to face at this point.

I got to see it, sure, but I learned a couple things from it.

Most importantly, it proved what everyone on this site has been saying -- the only reason he decided to be "accountable" is because he thought I was getting away, and needed to stop his supply from escaping.  Once I seemed emotionally available again, there was no need to be accountable, so he stopped.  I don't think this is a conscious cycle on his part, and I don't think that he thinks in terms of "supply" and "victims," but he is very predictable.  Like I said, pwBPD will rearrange everything around their own emotional needs -- values, beliefs, morals, integrity.  The emotional need comes first.  Not consciously, but subconsciously.  Seeing that play out so clearly was enough "closure" for me.

Getting an apology right now for me would be a dangerous thing.  It would feel oh-so-good, but it would really be just a hook for me to come back and meet his emotional needs again.

[C.Stein]

pwBPD will rearrange everything around their own emotional needs -- values, beliefs, morals, integrity.  The emotional need comes first.  Not consciously, but subconsciously.

Yes, I did see this in my ex to some extent.

Getting an apology right now for me would be a dangerous thing.  It would feel oh-so-good, but it would really be just a hook for me to come back and meet his emotional needs again.

You say you have achieved closure but have you?  The above might suggest you haven't?  You, like myself, seem to be still attached to the ex.  Perhaps not in the same way but attached none-the-less.  If we are still attached then have we achieved the closure we need?

[GoingBack2OC]

I can only say I'm sorry you too are going through this. It's really tough. I am going through much of the same right now.

My ex basically, at least towards the end, and honestly all throughout our relationship, did nothing but lie to me. Likely cheated on me multiple times. Stories just dont add up.

The last 5 weeks of our relationship:  She told me she got fired. Fired from her job. Of course what do I do?  Try to help. Offer compassion, support, advice. Then right before christmas, things just didnt add up. So I jokingly texted back to her... ."Fired,,, yea I'm sure".

She responded: "Haha ok well yea, I did lie about that but I am looking for a new job".

I was like---- What the heck!   So every conversation we've had has been fiction?   Wow, you know, the last few weeks of our relationship every time I called, you were so horribly angry, mean, nasty, I'm talking she was hysterical some times, screaming - I mean screaming bloody murder. Insanity. You should hear these calls. They are nothing short of insane.

So she dumps me Christmas time. Wow, 5 years, gone.  Then 3 weeks later; I attempt to just to talk to try to get closure. I just can't wrap my head around it. Like - why? All the lies?  Of course I was annoying - we were talking every day about "nothing".  You were never fired!  Every conversation I'm sure was torture because of the mental work keeping up the lie.

So I spoke with her yesterday. And alas; she confessed:  She was fired. The lie, about the lie, was the lie.  (Yes I am serious).

I guess my point is-- I too wanted closure just like you. To leave it on a kind, nice note. But honestly; the entire conversation was so insanely hostile. I did nothing but shower her with kindness and apologies for the things I did. Literally, nothing but saying loving nice things. I had to keep asking her to please stop - because for the entire talk, all she did was accuse, point fingers, etc.

So in conclusion:  In a strange way; I feel a lot better today. I know its too soon to tell. But what this talk made me realize was that this person is sick. She's beyond any help I could give her. The pathological lying, which happened so many times; I can't change that. She made so many comments on "will I ever change".  I told her no. I said I am who I am. I believe in compromise, sacrifice, love, giving more than you get; but I am who I am, you love me or you don't.

That said; the lie, being the lie, being the lie... .The insanity behind that. Zero remorse. I fell out of love right there. Gone with the wind. I mean really. Its the strangest thing. I went into the call hoping for an apology and reconciliation, and I walked away with a feeling of just total indifference and honestly; pity for her.

I ended the call saying I would always care for her, if she ever was in an emergency, or needed help, she could reach out- but I can't be her friend. I don't want to be. That final talk, made me realize she is not my kind of people. My friends, never would do such things; it's just not my crowd.

So I was angry, feeling hurt, wanted her to say sorry. I got NONE of that. But in the end, I actually didnt even want the apology any more. I mean, someone that crazy saying they are sorry, it means nothing.

So it did help; but in a way I would have never expected. Realizing she is beyond hope. Gone. A lost soul. That's whats really turned my mindset around and made me realize- this is not my loss.

In closing she complained, she is now sleeping 22 hrs a day; has not found a job yet, has 3-4 months left of money to cover rent, no real job leads.  I was actually the one who got her the job she had. I introduced her to the CEO, a friend of mine. He hired her on the spot.

In the end she asked after saying "Never contact me again, do you understand"? I said I wouldnt (And I wont) - She said;;; but who will I talk to?  I was just like... .uh goodnight. I've blocked her from my phone, email, everything. I really don't have any desire to ever see, talk or speak to her again.

Anger is not what I'm left with, at least not directed at her. More just - wow, I was blinded by love. Ok, lets move on.

[GreenEyedMonster]

You say you have achieved closure but have you?  The above might suggest you haven't?  You, like myself, seem to be still attached to the ex.  Perhaps not in the same way but attached none-the-less.  If we are still attached then have we achieved the closure we need?

I'm close to achieving closure.  I believe at this point that if my ex disappeared and I never saw or heard anything about him again, it wouldn't be particularly challenging for me to process that.  I have reached a point where my expectations of the situation are EXTREMELY low, though not quite nonexistent yet.  I still feel abandoned when he doesn't e-stalk me and I still relish the thought of him missing me, and that's all.

Part of what I meant by the above statement is that an apology has a funny way of raising your expectations of a situation.  I have mentally adjusted to not getting my needs met by this person.  If he comes back and makes a big show of meeting my needs (through apology), then it would set me back in my recovery and undo my sense of closure.

[thisworld]

I think what we seek with all our expectations about accountability, responsibility etc is actually recognition. A sort of validation (of which I believe I was deprived by my mother for instance). We can hold someone accountable and act on it - say, have nothing to do with them. We can hold them responsible and again take action - say, have nothing to do with them. Yet, we want the unfairness to be recognized. Why? Why isn't it enough for us that we recognize it and that's that. I think, sometimes I have an inner fantasy that he will have an A Ha moment this time. That translates as lack of acceptance. I don't know about his disorder, maybe he will be absolutely recovered next year. I, for myself, have to accept that this has not happened with me.

Also, even when we seemingly seek recognition, we tend to be helping them, rescuing them I think - wanting to tell them one more time what they did, etc. Why can't they arrive in this awareness themselves?  I hold myself accountable for my actions even though others don't. I don't know to what extent my ex has this (looking at his treatment of me, none. However, there must be some more turth to him). If this is an effect of the disorder, then no need to expect these. If it's not the disorder, even worse, really no need to expect these. 

[Learning Fast]

Part of what I meant by the above statement is that an apology has a funny way of raising your expectations of a situation.  I have mentally adjusted to not getting my needs met by this person.  If he comes back and makes a big show of meeting my needs (through apology), then it would set me back in my recovery and undo my sense of closure.



I ended the call saying I would always care for her, if she ever was in an emergency, or needed help, she could reach out- but I can't be her friend. I don't want to be. That final talk, made me realize she is not my kind of people. My friends, never would do such things; it's just not my crowd.



Very true, GEM and GB, on many levels.

I sent a very high-road, constructive and "best wishes" goodbye text to my ex on 12/31 after she didn't acknowledge my very simple "Merry Christmas/Happy New Year" text.  I have never had anyone do this in my life (certainly not in my adult life).  Yet she was able to text me several days later about how she was out in LA for New Year's at the same location (ostensibly with my replacement) where we had one of our most memorable and romantic weekends together.  In my judgment that was enough for me and the catalyst for my last text (plus I'm kind of a year-end guy so all of the planets happened to align).


As GB mentioned, I can't be friends (or, heck, even an acquaintance for that matter) with someone like her.  And as GEM mentioned, having her come back into my life would simply prolong or reverse my recovery as she wouldn't be able to meet my needs now any better that she could in the past.  I'm not waiting for a closure that she's not capable of delivering anyway.

LF

[taniasofia]

"C. Stein. I totally agree with you. I strongly feel sick or not these individuals should be held accountable for their actions. I myself feel like such an A** for even falling again for my ex.  28 years later no less. Believing all her lies and BS! I of course had no idea about BPD either. Man I wish the heck I did. I would have ran the other way and never looked back.  I believe that these individuals know exactly what they are doing. It's all about them and to hell with everyone else and how we feel. My ex after emails of constant "Projection" did apologize to me . But in the same sense just acted like she gave our relationship a shot and in her eyes was not for her. Out of the clear blue sky of course. You know when the day before they are telling you that you are the love of their life crap. Then rhe next day oh I tried but it's not going to work bye bye. So yes I strongly feel that they should be held accountable for the chaos and mind games they play with healthy people."

Wow! If it helps, know that when i read your posts', it felt as if I was reading my own! :/  I went through the same exact thing. I also got the i love you and you are the love of my life, and five minutes later I got the we tried and you have to understand that it didnt work out!and then we are left with the "what the F$%^ just happened here". I was told she wanted to move out, right after I said okay lets move out, BAMM that was no longer the case!

[C.Stein]

I believe that these individuals know exactly what they are doing.

I don't feel my ex knew what she was doing all the time.  There were definitely times when I think she was just behaving based on her emotions of the moment and doing things she had done all her life ... .i.e. learned behavior.  I don't think it was premeditated, but it was none-the-less still manipulative and extremely damaging.   This is the most BPD like behavior.  It is also the type of behavior that is the most difficult to get under control.

Then there were times where behavior was drawn out over a long period of time.  This is what I have a hard time believing is not done with at least some cognitive awareness.   Impulsive behavior is short term, actions are based on emotions of the moment.  Long term deception, having an emotional affair for months ... .these are not driven by emotionally loaded impulsive behavior.  There certainly may be some unstable emotions driving the behavior but I have a very hard time believing she was not fully aware of what she was doing and that it was wrong. 

Those of us who have been unfortunate enough to be exposed to our exes stories that just don't add up, gas lighting, etc... .know exactly what I am talking about.  A person does these things when they are trying to cover up the truth.  If there were no pre-existing knowledge of wrong doing on their behalf there would be no need to act like this.  This is most obvious when you accidentally catch them in a lie or cover up, not one where you know they did something wrong and you are pressing for the truth.