Why do we attack each other here?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Honestly, I am in a good place overall. I have be broken up with my ex for almost two years. I talked to him for the first time in almost a year yesterday. I was hard and set me back a bit so I come on here to read some posts to help me and I read these threads where people just want to attack each other.

This is not making me feel better it makes me feel sad.

I am not new here and i have been caught up in an argument or two myself but why do people on a support group feel the need to tell someone they are wrong? and then be mean? isn't reality our own perception?

Is it because we feel someone is challenging our new beliefs or are we in the angry stage?

UGHK!

[honeysuckle]

Honestly, I am in a good place overall. I have be broken up with my ex for almost two years. I talked to him for the first time in almost a year yesterday. I was hard and set me back a bit so I come on here to read some posts to help me and I read these threads where people just want to attack each other.

This is not making me feel better it makes me feel sad.

I am not new here and i have been caught up in an argument or two myself but why do people on a support group feel the need to tell someone they are wrong? and then be mean? isn't reality our own perception?

Is it because we feel someone is challenging our new beliefs or are we in the angry stage?

UGHK!

[Invictus01]

People come here emotionally wrecked and just about anything might set them off. That is all.

[Rmbrworst]

If you see that behavior, ignore it.  No sense in worrying or focusing on it.  Most interactions here I've seen as positive

[honeysuckle]

Yes and I was one of them. However I find the people mostly doing the attacking are the ones who want to blame the non. It feels like victim shaming to me.

in general it feels like you are to blame- shut up- get over it. This happens often in here. I don't get it

[Invictus01]

Yes and I was one of them. However I find the people mostly doing the attacking are the ones who want to blame the non. It feels like victim shaming to me.

in general it feels like you are to blame- shut up- get over it. This happens often in here. I don't get it

I guess the train of thought here is that you need to look at yourself and figure out why is it that you ended up in a relationship like this. And, maybe, if your relationship included verbal, physical and blatant emotional abuse but you still stayed in it despite all that, broke up 25,000 times and got back together 25,000 times, that is a good question to ask. And maybe, the majority of relationships on here are like that. However, I do agree that for those of us who didn't have all that and didn't see "red flags" for what they were because they weren't that obvious... .It is pretty tough to look at yourself and ask yourself - "Why didn't you walk away from this even though you didn't know what a personality disorder is and what red flags look like?"

[Itstopsnow]

I agree with you! We have all been through our own personal hell. Being betrayed by someone who comes across as being your best friend, lover, and number one supporter only to find out the truth . BPD has different severities in different people. We don't need to come on here and have someone throw their credentials at us acting self righteous! It is very unattractive and unprofessional especially for a "site monitor"  I really appreciate Mutt and Skip. They are very kind and show empathy and balance in their responses. I hate seeing people attacked on here. It brings up past abuse I've received and that feeling of injustice comes back up for me. In my case my ex knew very well what he was doing as probably most do. Maybe not at first! I think they do go into new relationships with the hopes this time can be different. That is if the person is not already a rebound for them or a side piece as well. But once they start to disregulate and see we aren't perfect I think they switch in their brain and start to think we aren't what they hoped for so the search is on again. Never mind the fact they never share these thoughts, fears, or concerns with us . We only see the push and pull start to happen. And then we get into a viscous cycle of abuse and can become emotionally and sometimes physically battered . Not all BPD act only destructive to themselves. Many act out and can be cruel. Again I agree the underlining feelings are more self loathing but they take it out on us regardless. They do have a mental disorder but they also know sneaking around, lying , manipulating is wrong. It's not helping our relationship with them. It's breaking trust, boundaries, and shows the little to no true respect they have for us. That their main concern is themselves. They are fully aware what they do is wrong. Hence they keep adding to that deep core shame. That shame comes from their actions that they keep doing to people time and time again. It's like what came first the chicken or the egg. Shame for borderlines are caused by themselves not just their disorder . They may have been hurt as a child to what extend? It varies I'm sure. But when is it that you take responsibity for your own actions. Borderlines a lot of them don't! They blame everything's everyone else. I'm sorry I'm not here to rally and support them as the perpetual victim. They aren't. And I hate seeing others take their stance and have to watch someone through out their ego and pride at them to be right at any cost. It would be nice to see some humility on this site. No one is perfect and we should all be a little humbled by our experiences and not try to be better than because we are a site monitor here. My ex always needed to justify everything he said and it was at any cost! Always needing to come back and have the last word . It was a very Unattracive quality . We are trying to heal here not be made to feel like we are getting told how to feel or what is right. Haven't we felt enough with feeling that way from our ex's . No one wants to feel bullied or picked upon or told how to feel. When again you weren't in each situation and these disordered people are cluster B which can overlap and be co morbid .

[blackbirdsong]

Yes and I was one of them. However I find the people mostly doing the attacking are the ones who want to blame the non. It feels like victim shaming to me.

in general it feels like you are to blame- shut up- get over it. This happens often in here. I don't get it

For example, I had similar discussion just recently. The thing is that we often confuse two different things. When someone says that nons also need to do their introspective work and take responsibility for some unhealthy behaviors that are characteristic for nons in a relationship with BPDs (codependency, narcissistic issues, low self-esteem, FOO issues, 100 other reasons why they tolerated emotional abuse for so long, etc) others often react as I said that they need to blame themselves.

The thing is, I don't blame myself for entering a relationship with my exGF. During my therapy I recognized some issues that I need to solve. While I read numerous stories here, I also recognize some issues that nons have. But this is not something to blame. You can work on it if you will, but no one is blaming you.

But, I also don't blame my exGF. Yes, bad things happened. But they have mental disorder. It was an elephant in the room.

She didn't force me to be with her. I wanted that. Part of me still does. I could just walk away. I didn't. I mean, I did, but only after the strong emotions were already formed.

[Lifewriter16]

I know what you're saying honeysuckle and four months ago I was having exactly the same kind of debates as you seem to be having right now and started my own thread about it. I still haven't completely settled my feelings about this, but I have found that examining my issues with my BPDxbf and looking at whether they reflect issues I faced in my family of origin has been key in my healing process. Now I see it as not being intended as blame, it is intended to give us the key to set us free.

Love Lifewriter x

[shatra]

Rmbrworst wrote--

If you see that behavior, ignore it.

----It is a hurtful behavior,, and ignoring it won't help.  Analysing it, and discussing it can help

   I feel frustrated when I post something and  get responses like "The BPD must have lied to you, but you just can't hear my response" or "Just forget about him and focus on yourself"

   It wouldn't be healthy or possible to "just forget" about him, and I actually do focus on myself... .I don't spend 24/7 focusing on the BPD, but when I come to  this site I post about BPD because that's part of the purpose of the site. 

  I sometimes avoid posting because I feel uncomfortable about the shaming responses, or responses that sound like the poster thinks I should just deny my feelings and not think about the ex

[Skip]

isn't reality our own perception?

Reality is reality.  Our perceptions are often biased. When we are emotionally distraught, far more so. Providing perspective is a key benefit of a support group.

Most, if not all, of the clashes are on this board and the conflict typically traces back to "self awareness" vs "blame/stereotyping/lashing out".

I'd equate it to taking your new Mercedes to the $1 car wash and standing in the drying areas aghast a!t all the find scratches on your new car.

     SOB Carwash! Look what you did!

In that moment, no one wants to hear, right then and there, the manual says don't use acrylic brushes.

Is this blaming the victim?

Some members are wounded and emotional and need validation. Which is OK. If you are in "validate me only mode", start your post with it.

I'm really wounded right now - I need validation - not ready for hard truth yet.

Here is where it gets messy. Some want validation of unhealthy beliefs (e.g., revenge) or views (all pwBPD are really psychopaths) and this is where conflict is inevitable. Many senior members/mentors aren't going to let the community deteriorate into Jerry Springer world. This is not blaming the victim, its calling "out-of-bounds".

We are a mentor based community. Most everyone understands the others pain - lived it. Most everyone knows that sometimes a person can only handle validation - its cool. The line get drawn at validating the invalid - unhealthy stuff.

Solution: If you thing a discussion is outside of these parameters, hit the report the report to mod button at the bottom right of the offending post.

[honeysuckle]

Ok, this is where I get lost. Maybe you can help me with it. When you give the car wash analogy. I feel in that situation if the car wash is advertising the best most caring honest (insert whatever) car wash ever... .Then when looking at the scratches says oops, well yeah that usually happens but I didn't think it would this time so I didn't mention it. Oh well, next car. How is it that the drivers fault? Because I didn't know to ask what kind of brush they use because I'd never been to that kind of car wash? I think this is where the problem is. I don't hate my Ex and I feel horrible for him but that doesn't take away the fact that I felt bamboozled. I was not aware of any of this behavior. I believed what he said when he meant it. I believed what he said when he changed his mind but didn't tell me. They were the same words. Then to say well, they are disordered and you should know better. Im having a hard time understanding that. Can you help me with that part?

I have forgiven and done enormous self work and I still have "moments" of difficulty. I do not wish to recycle or bash or anything else. It was a learning experience for sure but I feel it was forced on me. I didn't ask to go through it. I didn't even know what I was going through at the time. There are lots of people who feel this way as well. Is the issue with this last thread because of the name calling?

[Itstopsnow]

Honeysuckle I agree! 100%! I don't hate my ex and want him to be tarred and feathered. (Hmmm maybe I do that sounds funny) just kidding. They know they have something going on inside and 9 times out of 10 family members know as well. I get it, they are in denial and that's their blood. And let's face it sometimes these family members are just as sick as our ex's are. So yes they do what they do because they have their disorder and they'll never be able to live or act another way in any relationship without proper treatment . And even then it's a crap shoot. So they lie, cheat, hurt, abuse, etc etc., what bothers me the most is now I'm stuck in a situation where I have to learn to trust again, learn to let go of all the horrible violations I've been put through, and learn to let go of my angry and try my damnest not to hate ! I don't want to hate him and that's where I actually thank God he has BPD because this disorder is the saving grace from keeping hatred out of my heart for him. One day I want to be able to pray for him and mean it sincerely . Maybe pray for him even daily. But I'm not there yet. So I understand honeysuckle that it sucks to post and have people here put some of the blame on us. Guess what I think everyone here has to accept responsibility for dating them. But like you said we are honest "normal" functioning people who trust and don't expect this kind of relationship to happen to us! It's like a lifetime movie for God's sake! I never would of imagined him to be this person. It still has me dumbfounded at time, I wouldn't wish this on my worse enemy . I guess that now would be him... So I don't have to. . In all seriousness he's not my enemy but he will also never be my friend. And that is sad

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think the problem here is a logical fallacy.

Yes, you were victimized.

But it does not necessarily follow that you were coldly, knowingly, and intentionally victimized.

Some people have a hard time separating the two because -- understandably -- their emotions about being victimized are so strong.  I empathize, but kindly disagree.

If we're honest, we all *accidentally* victimize people on occasion, by making mistakes or just because of our own personal shortcomings.

Are there people out there who knowingly and intentionally abuse others?  Yes.  Does it follow that all pwBPD do this?  No.

[Invictus01]

I think the problem here is a logical fallacy.

Yes, you were victimized.

But it does not necessarily follow that you were coldly, knowingly, and intentionally victimized.

Some people have a hard time separating the two because -- understandably -- their emotions about being victimized are so strong.  I empathize, but kindly disagree.

If we're honest, we all *accidentally* victimize people on occasion, by making mistakes or just because of our own personal shortcomings.

Are there people out there who knowingly and intentionally abuse others?  Yes.  Does it follow that all pwBPD do this?  No.

I think what it comes down to is that in a whole lot of cases, people see zero remorse from a personality disordered person. That's what gets people going. When we accidentally "victimize" somebody and we know it, the natural reaction is to apologize for what you did, right? That's what a "normal" person would do. And when somebody hurts you to the degree a lot of people here got hurt, it is practically inconceivable to a rational brain that the other person can't even apologize. And that's when people start going - "he/she doesn't apologize, he/she thinks there is nothing wrong, he/she must have meant all this all along".

This being said, we really don't know what was going on in the other person's head. It might have very well be intentional. Once a personality disorder is brought up, all bets are off. Just need to walk away and be done with it.

[Itstopsnow]

I think it's more than that. They don't only not apologize but a lot start smear campaigns . Some of us never even know it. Mine made up crazy lies to my replacement. Oh by the way when he was still dating both of us. Told her we broke up in January when we dated till August 28th. He started dating her end of June. How is that not intentional? Please tell me. I agree some of their stressors come out and they act out. But when during the discard phase, when they are living a full double life. Because they know they want to dumb you, or need to dumb you! You are pushing too many triggers for them to stay, sure they may try and recycle you, but who the hell wants that? They know what they are doing when it's time to bail. In fact they are distancing themselves from you by now in this phase. So they can be over you! Never mind that you have nothing to prepare yourself for that! They don't care! I guess it's every man/woman for themselves . They have no loyalty, no integrity and no compunction of heart. Yes they are sick but they aren't dumb they have a conscious contact to their choices

[Rmbrworst]

I think the hardest thing about this disorder and the people it affects, is the fact that it requires us to take a deep look into ourselves to find out why these things happened.

I think what people do not like to hear, but I've been learning slowly, is that unfortunately, the fault does not seem to lie completely with the person with BPD, and hearing that can be excruciating when you are new to all of this.

I think maybe people are misinterpreting the fact that having to face yourself, and own up for your own fallacies, is a really tough pill to swallow when you have been completely discarded and used up.

But I allowed this to happen, and I am learning this is truly when the healing begins.

Sorry if this seems off topic.  I am not sure of the original fight or argument, just trying to say why I think people may be sensitive to some harsh realities on here is because of this.

Also, just as a side note, I do not believe all BPD people are malicious, and I do not believe my BPD ex did this to hurt me.  I truly feel he is underdeveloped emotionally, and cannot help the things he did.  However, I do hope he accepts responsibility one day, and gets the help he really needs.  I believe he's a good person . . . but a lost soul.  I have to forgive to move on.

[honeysuckle]

Again I ask why? I'm not disagreeing per-say but to just say its your fault too is not working for me. As I wrote earlier I see a lot of take responsibilty... .and its your fault too... and it takes two... .and its not intentional and people don't want to hear it is them too... .okay. Why and how is that the case?

Is it my fault too after the lies and/or deception appears and I chose to stay? I would absolutely agree.  Before that... .I don't believe that to be the case. Please explain that part to me

[once removed]

but to just say its your fault too is not working for me

to me, it should not and need not be about blame or fault. its really not even about "yeah but you werent perfect either", because that kinda goes without saying and isnt the point. its not like i look at my relationship and say "oh everything was totally 50/50". its not even about being the bigger person, because its not a contest. and as shatra mentioned, i dont think its helpful to receive a sort of drive by, "forget about them, look at yourself". thats invalidating, and what does it even mean?

some of us stop here: "okay fine, i guess my role is that i didnt run fast enough from the monster and i loved too much." or some variation. if you had a gut feeling(s) you ignored, or you compromised your values (i did both), thats certainly worth examining, and its a good start.  

we bring a lot into our relationships: personality traits, habits both good and bad, patterns, triggers, certain behaviors, certain belief systems, all kinds of things. if we want to know "how we got here", examining these things about us gives us a more accurate picture (without blame). if we want to build healthier relationships in the future, it requires self awareness, growth and maturity, some change.

that can either be a scary notion, or a liberating one. it means different things to different people (obviously) and it helps to discover what it means to each of us. it also helps to keep in mind what it means to us may not apply to others.

before my relationship, i considered myself a pretty self aware guy. someone who would bend over backwards to try and understand your point of view, and invested in working together for the happiness of both, and getting on the same page. trying to look at my relationship as a bystander was pretty humbling. the entire relationship appears as one long dysfunctional interaction; i act, she reacts, i react, she acts, i react, she reacts. i saw the potential of my anger and the results of acting on it (you might argue thats not how i normally behave, or that i was driven to it. you might be right. it showed me what im capable of and i didnt like it). i saw how incredibly invalidating i could be. i saw how her dysfunction made me feel better; not only better, but safe. i saw that i had some unresolved demons i was unaware of, that i brought into the relationship... .that attracted me to the relationship. i saw some basic immaturity. i saw my patterns in terms of the partners im attracted to, the kind of relationships i was looking for, some fantasies i believed in, and some misguided ideas on what love is and isnt. and sure, i said some not so nice things; that happens in relationships.

sometimes "why did you stay" has a simple answer, or it can frankly be victim blaming (abuse is insidious and systematic. abusers in romantic relationships dont tend to come right out with it. for some people it feels normal or even deserved). however, if you at one time thought your ex was the greatest person in the world, your soulmate, loved everything about them (most of us here), and now actively demonize them, theres a disconnect (and probably a unique kind of ego wound). "why did you stay" is a very pertinent question for me, as during most of the relationship, i did not respect my ex, and i wanted out from very early on (this is a pattern ive found myself in more than once). why did i stay? fear of abandonment, indecisiveness, the drama fed something missing in my life... .lots of reasons; at the same time i desperately wanted it to work, and i wanted to marry her, ultimately.

to me, focusing on "ourselves" is about the ultimate truth: the only one you can change is yourself. if i dont like someones behavior, i have to change how i handle it, or dont, perhaps change how i respond, maybe even decide im overreacting or taking something personally. to be very frank with you, just learning a mere two communication techniques (SET and BIFF), as well as learning not to JADE, has improved all of my relationships, and that really helps the concept sink in. its also what the concept of boundaries is all about. and at the end of the day, for whatever good qualities i had/have, i cant say ive had a successful romantic relationship, can i? id like to. my relationship was a catalyst. im grateful for that.

im getting a bit long winded here, but this is my point: the suggestion (which should come at a time when a member is ready, which is not always easy to gauge) is not about defending pwBPD, condoning abuse, feeling sorry for pwBPD, nor is it necessarily about finding fault or blame within ourselves in the relationship (though it certainly can be). its about self improvement and detaching. its about seeing the bigger picture and growing. and if you didnt know what brush to use, learning which brush to use in the future will help you keep your car in good shape in it.

we are all family, here to support and encourage and learn from each other. this too, will mean different things to different people.

edit: by the way, "focus on yourself" doesnt always have anything to do with any of this, it can merely be a proactive suggestion, a way of counteracting obsessive thoughts that keep us stuck.

[Rmbrworst]

I may not be perfect at interpreting all this because I'm new to everything, but even if I don't relate what I'm feeling perfectly, I really enjoyed reading your post and I gained a lot from it

[enlighten me]

I think part of the problem here is the detachment board is all encompassing. We are all at different stages in our detachment. After the initial break up we are hurt and confused. At the other end we are still detaching but have done some personal inventory.

Yes it is invalidating to be told we had an input to the dysfunction. Yes it is invalidating to be told to get over it.

We are all individuals and all have different ideas and beliefs. We are all at different stages and all handle things differently. I have a friend whos ex wife could possibly be BPD. He walked away and never looked back. His attitude was she wasn't worth worrying about as she was crazy. For him it worked and he is happily remarried. I have another friend who when my ex wife left me told me to just get over it. From the outside he could see what she was like but at the time I couldn't so it was invalidating. Now I look back and think he was right but I still had to go through the pain to reach that conclusion.

Maybe a board for initial break up and then one for detaching could reduce the frustration at some of the replies.

[Mutt]

"You must of done something to deserve that"

"She's not mentally ill if she's not diagnosed"

"Get over it"

Those are some of the things that I was told. As silly as this may sound, I honestly thought that I was going through an experience that nobody else was going through.

I thought I was losing my mind.

For 8 years, I turned to family and friends and they couldn't help me. Marriage counselors, therapists were rescuing my ex wife in sessions and I was persecutor.

Nobody in real life understood, or cared. Nobody knew what I was going through behind closed doors.

I recall my first post 3 years ago and thought "Wow, they're listening to me!"

I think that the goal is to help mend each others wounds. We're all in this together.

[GreenEyedMonster]

There's a bit of a "serenity prayer" factor here.

People with BPD exist, millions of them.  You can't help the fact that they exist.  They cannot, by force of will, wake up one day and not have BPD.  We assume that pwBPD can choose not to hurt us, or choose not to behave in certain ways.  Even though that is obvious to us, THAT IS NOT THE INTERNAL EXPERIENCE OF THE INDIVIDUAL WITH BPD.

You can't expect a person with a mental illness to behave as if he or she does not have a mental illness, especially something as pervasive and lifelong as a personality disorder. 

These people did what they did to us because their mental illness limited them from seeing other, better ways to behave.  They DON'T KNOW how to not be mentally ill! 

As an OCD sufferer myself, I was told many times to "snap out of it," "stop worrying so much," or "just get over it."  As if I could just cure my own OCD by thinking, "Oh yeah, I have a mental illness.  I guess I should just stop being mentally ill!"  But overcoming those thoughts and behaviors took a lot more understanding and insight than that.

This is not an excuse.  It is simple fact.  Acting "normal" for a pwBPD takes a degree of effort and time investment that most of us do not understand.

If I "blame" anyone for what happened to me, I blame the person who abused my ex and caused his development to be arrested in childhood, when a smart, articulate man like him could have done so much more in his life.  Holding him "accountable" for what he did will accomplish nothing because he doesn't have the emotional capacity to be held accountable for his actions.  He is not being mentally ill out of stubbornness or to annoy me personally.  If he could be different, I'm sure he would choose to be, but it's not that simple.

I think the issue here is that we need to recognize that 1) the pwBPD's behavior is beyond our control and 2) their internal experience is so vastly different from ours that normal ideas about "accountability" don't work the same way.

[Mutt]

There's a bit of a "serenity prayer" factor here.

People with BPD exist, millions of them.  You can't help the fact that they exist.  They cannot, by force of will, wake up one day and not have BPD.  We assume that pwBPD can choose not to hurt us, or choose not to behave in certain ways.  Even though that is obvious to us, THAT IS NOT THE INTERNAL EXPERIENCE OF THE INDIVIDUAL WITH BPD.

You can't expect a person with a mental illness to behave as if he or she does not have a mental illness, especially something as pervasive and lifelong as a personality disorder.  

These people did what they did to us because their mental illness limited them from seeing other, better ways to behave.  They DON'T KNOW how to not be mentally ill!  

As an OCD sufferer myself, I was told many times to "snap out of it," "stop worrying so much," or "just get over it."  As if I could just cure my own OCD by thinking, "Oh yeah, I have a mental illness.  I guess I should just stop being mentally ill!"  But overcoming those thoughts and behaviors took a lot more understanding and insight than that.

This is not an excuse.  It is simple fact.  Acting "normal" for a pwBPD takes a degree of effort and time investment that most of us do not understand.

If I "blame" anyone for what happened to me, I blame the person who abused my ex and caused his development to be arrested in childhood, when a smart, articulate man like him could have done so much more in his life.  Holding him "accountable" for what he did will accomplish nothing because he doesn't have the emotional capacity to be held accountable for his actions.  He is not being mentally ill out of stubbornness or to annoy me personally.  If he could be different, I'm sure he would choose to be, but it's not that simple.

I think the issue here is that we need to recognize that 1) the pwBPD's behavior is beyond our control and 2) their internal experience is so vastly different from ours that normal ideas about "accountability" don't work the same way.

I agree GreenEyedMonster.

Again I ask why? I'm not disagreeing per-say but to just say its your fault too is not working for me. As I wrote earlier I see a lot of take responsibilty... .and its your fault too... and it takes two... .and its not intentional and people don't want to hear it is them too... .okay. Why and how is that the case?

Is it my fault too after the lies and/or deception appears and I chose to stay? I would absolutely agree.  Before that... .I don't believe that to be the case. Please explain that part to me

There are a lot of things that we can learn about ourselves with what we put out in the world in a relationship, it gives us realistic feedback about ourselves.

I think that changing how we react to others takes a lot of work. Is that what is hard for us to hear?

[Pretty Woman]

I am so glad this post is still open. I have been thinking about it for a few days and finally got up the courage to comment.

I personally believe we are all at different "stages" on this site (hence why it may seem we are "verbally beating each other up" at times). Also, being unique individuals some of us are simply more aware than others.

I am not slighting anyone but I truly believe some people are just more self-aware beings in general.

About three months ago a moderator on here sent me a private msg suggesting I might have a "narc ego wound". I'll be honest, I was a bit insulted, well more than insulted at the time but I can honestly say now, I agree with that 100%.

There is a reason we were attracted to our exes. There is reason we put up and stayed, dealt with outrageous behavior, sometimes abusive, and largely socially unacceptable, at least within society's "" norms.

If we were 100% healthy with 0 co-dependency issues we would not be on this site. We would have gotten out at the first red  

We would have ran like crazy. Locked the door and tossed away the key on our unhealthy relationships.

This doesn't mean we are crazy. This doesn't mean we are BPD but we do have responsibility in the non/BPD dance and dynamic.

We CHOSE to participate. We chose to deal with this individual. We didn't walk away.

It hurts like hell giving your heart and having someone cheat, lie, steal from you. I struggle with that.  I am a good person. I work hard, I make a more than decent living. I am self-sufficient. I have money in the bank, good friends, great social skills.

Yet it kills me inside that this one person who possesses NONE of my attributes walked away like I never existed.

Why do we want acknowledgement from someone who hurt us?

Because we have our own issues. If we were happy with ourselves and secure (emotionally) it wouldn't matter what they think.

But it's a process getting to that point. I am finally getting closer. I don't wish her badly. I did love her, but it was not a healthy love. It was a mother-daughter love not a lover/spouse love. Emotionally I am capable of a deeper love and my staying in the relationship was out of fear of not finding that.

I stayed because I didn't want to be alone. Yet, I was already alone in this relationship. I see that now but it took a long time to get there.

PW

[Beach_Babe]

I think there is a manner in which to convey that message, however, that does not involve beating someone down.

[honeysuckle]

Thank you all for your comments. I am a bit more understanding of the point that who I am as a non played a factor. I totally had a narcissistic injury in my case and it took me a long time to process all that happened while still hurting. I am not in the place I was when I started this journey. I think it is important how this insight gained by more "seasoned" people for lack of word, people relay this information and I do agree sometimes this is not something the listener is going to hear. I hope this has been helpful to some of the others still in the beginning stages. I dont want them to miss out on this resource. 

[enlighten me]

As the saying goes "its not whats said but how its received that counts".

[Pretty Woman]

I do agree we need to be mindful when commenting only because we really are in different stages of recovery from this... .

and it is traumatic. It's bad enough going through this with other people not understanding... .worse to come on here and be belittled for your comments.

I know I have been guilty of this, esp on a day where I might be feeling a little empowered. In retrospect, I am sorry if I ever offended anyone because it wasn't intentional.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I do agree we need to be mindful when commenting only because we really are in different stages of recovery from this... .

and it is traumatic. It's bad enough going through this with other people not understanding... .worse to come on here and be belittled for your comments.

I know I have been guilty of this, esp on a day where I might be feeling a little empowered. In retrospect, I am sorry if I ever offended anyone because it wasn't intentional.

I agree that we need to support people wherever they are.  There is a problem, however, when the board becomes filled with misinformation about BPD because of people's emotional reactions and trauma.  I think that is one thing that makes this board unique and better quality than many of the other sites out there.  Also, as someone who has personally suffered from mental illness, I think it's very important to remember that the pwBPD is a human being just like we are, and that that person is suffering.  It's understandable to be very angry about what was happened to us; that is one of the stages of grief.  But there are factual definitions of BPD and BPD behavior, like the DSM, that are probably more accurate that our emotional reactions to what happened to us.

[mywifecrazy]

I felt compelled to reply especially after recent BPD events.

I agree with Honeysuckles original premiss. Not that anyone's response was wrong as there was truth in everyone's posts as just like nons not all BPD'S are the same so it stands to reason that there isn't one mindset as to what actions are controllable and what actions are done out of a  highly disregulated state of mind. It sounded to me like HS might have been worried that making too many excuses for the pwBPD behavior might be enabling them and by enabling them are they kept from hitting a personal rock bottom that might have them  seeking REAL help? Someone earlier mentioned AA. It's taught in recovery that ones pain caused by their actions must get to a level that is greater than their shame and guilt caused by their actions before they will admit that they need help. I wonder if this applies to pwBPD? I personally don't accept that all  pwBPD are going around doing and saying things like an incontrollable robot. The only experience I have is with my X and from what I've seen first hand and have experienced the evidence says no. She has done too much manipulating and lying to try to cover up and get away with her actions. If she couldn't control herself and didn't know what she did was wrong and hurtful to others why the distortion campaign all the energy involved in her trying to cover up for her actions? Why does she get angry when she's confronted and cornered about her lies? From what I experienced the only reason she went on an abuse distortion campaign about me was to manipulate someone else into feeling sorry for her and to rescue her. She knew it was wrong because she was very calculating trying to keep me from finding out. Maybe my X is more ASPD than BPD? Could be. She is the Chameleon Waif type. Maybe they ARE more ASPD?

None of the above means I don't have symapthy for her.  I know she's sick and I wouldn't want to be in her shoes. It's no way to live! I'm just glad I'm out of the FOG. Unfortunately my kids still have to deal with her as Mom... .What happened that made me want to post on this thread? My X only gets the kids every other weekend and she keeps coming up with excuses for not taking them on her scheduled day. "I have a dinner to go to" "I have a party to go to" She blew off her kids because she CONSCIOUSLY CHOSE to blow them off. I and her kids hold her accountable for that. Unfortunately it's my kids who keep paying the price.

Just my thoughts on a very interesting subject.

MWC... .