From Hoarder To OCD Neat

[Turkish]

When we went up to my mom's house last weekend, I took pics, surreptitiously. I tried to find something online which was similar, but came up at a loss to also communicate the filth. This kind of approximates it:

www.po.b5z.net/i/u/10021204/i/DSC02206.JPG

I was kicking cans and bottles out of the way in the narrow paths. I'm surprised that my mom never slipped and fell, because i think I surely would have. A small box was in my way. I tossed it a couple of feet. My mom waded over, "what was that?" Worried. It turned out to be some packet she ordered from tv by a well-known financial "guru." My mom said, "biggest waste of $200 I ever did." Last year, she was singing her praises, and I kept silent. Ten years ago, it was the $5k she wasted on a scheme to teach people how to buy commodities. No comment about that boondoggle. I heard water dripping through the roof into the kitchen. I wanted out. I only lived there for about 7 months in '89. I remember when it was empty, and the wood stove worked, not with the ceiling and insulation falling into the living room from rot as it has been for years.

We escaped only taking a couple of bags of her clothes. Didn't even come close to filling my hatchback. My old truck which I gave to her in 2009 has the king cab back seats filled to the middle of the back window with who knows what. Her vehicles have always been hoards as well. I can't even tell what the junk is in the bed. Thankfully, I never had a bed shell, or it would be 3x the stuff.

Now at home living with me: she's a neat freak  

The kids came back tonight. Last night, we were putting away their laundry. My mom makes our beds during the day, it gives her something to do. I was showing her that S5's clothes that didn't hang in the closet didn't go into the dresser: that's for Princess D3. His go into the trundle drawers. I hadn't smoothed the blanket hanging very the drawers properly and she made a comment. I looked at her like, "Really?" She said, "My OCD tendencies are triggered." (So it's depression, BPD, periodic bulimia, PTSD--- which has thankfully been subsiding--- and now OCD?).

We pulled down the patio curtains and washed them because she noticed prints (without a woman living here, I haven't given it much thought). She told D3 to not touch the curtains tonight with her dirty hands. I told my mom that we had just washed them, and how else could she get through the door? They're on a rod with no track mechanism. My mm said, "she can use her elbow like I do."

She cleans the whole house, basically, better than I did. It's definitely value-added, when here i was dreading possibly having to deal with her hoarding issues living with us.

My thoughts:

1. Her previous living situation was overwhelming, even though it was literally a mess of her own making. Looking back at least to age 12 when I realized it, she was always a hoarder: stuff, food, animals... .even people.

2. It's about controlling her environment.

3. The most common factor centers around anxiety, and whatever she has the power to do to reduce its existence, soothing her mind.

The ISTP in me finds all of this fascinating.

[Notwendy]

I'll add an idea here. Is it possible she is trying extra hard to be a good grandma and stay in this living situation? With this extra effort- abandonment/anxiety that you may ask her to leave fears may be kicking in. OCD is, in essence, an anxiety disorder and the OCD behavior is how the person manages the anxiety. She may also have some anxiety from the change- no longer living alone but with people, people who would notice if things were messy. While I think we have standards of cleanliness that are higher than what you found in your mother's house, I think some of us would get a bit lax if we lived alone. But now, if your mother did get lax, others would notice.

I have noticed some of this with my own mother. As a kid, I was afraid of her and her moods- she controlled the house, and as an adult, I feared my father's disapproval if I stood up to her. She really didn't have to worry about what I thought of her in terms of who was in control of the situation. She was. I did what she said.

But I eventually did work on boundaries, and there was an extinction burst, with her painting me black, coming close to disowning me. But for me, I chose to be LC, not NC as I also decided that, I didn't have to fear her. However, I didn't stay with her for a long time. Being in her home was too hard for me emotionally, and in addition, staying in my childhood home with Dad gone was tough. So I stayed at friends' or a hotel.

Recently, siblings came to visit and I decided to visit too. I told her I would get a hotel.I thought it would be too much to have all of us but she asked me to stay. I thought, well, I would give it a chance. She got into an argument with one of them, and then said she didn't want me to leave because of the argument. Ironically, mom was WOE a bit around me, since she knew if there was a scene, I would have gone and stayed somewhere else and I think she didn't want that.

Why? well, I think we are familiar with the push pull, black, white thing, but also, I realize that is the nature of BPD and not how my mother feels about me. I think she realized after she painted me black that she didn't want to have pushed that far. I think also, considering her age- and your mother's age- it has to be scary and lonely to not have ties to family. It is also the nature of BPD to go to one extreme or the other- both hoarding and OCD are driven by anxiety.

I know there is help and advice for family members of people with OCD, and while I am not familiar with it, I think it too is a balance of leaving some of it alone and then not enabling it, because otherwise it takes over the house. Is there some source of counseling/support group/family education for you and the kids on this?

[ijustwantpeace]

My mom hoard stuff too.  My brother was getting rid of old furniture that hurts your back and my mom is trying to push it on me.  I said no I don't want it.  Now that I understand that everything she does is due to her extreme fear of me leaving and never talking to her again everything makes sense.

Anything to keep me around is what she wants.  When I was selling down all my stuff she became irrational wanting to buy me a gas stove for my kitchen.  I told her I am not putting any money into the house as I won't get it back.

She truly lacks the ability to process information correctly.  Instead she tries in vain to hold on tight.

Your a better man than me Turkish after 3 years living with my BPD mom it left me completely depleted mentally, physically, and emotionally.

Trying to figure out there behavior will only suck you back into the chaos vortex.

They have a hole in their soul.  If it is 2" you get a 2" plug, but it does not work the hole just gets bigger.  They have an insationable need for attention that can never be filled by a human.  Some Christians refer to this as a God sized hole in the heart.

[Turkish]

We just got back from Wal-Mart, mom me and the kids. She wanted Irish spring soap for the dogs, as it kills fleas. She uses Dove for herself. She picked up a pack of 8 bars. I handed her a pack of two, saying that it was enough to last a year. She looked at the price of the 8 pack and said, "oh good, $3.98!" I replied that she didn't need that much, but she was focused on the price. I said, "that's hoarding," to which she responded with a laugh, and said, "yes," as if taking pride in it. I let it go. I have a 1000sf house, but I guess we have room for bars of soap I'll eventually toss in the future.

'peace, I just started this... .We'll see who the last person standing is!

NW, I'll start looking into some of the things that you said, which kind of confirm my gut feelings... .Not that I have time to join another support group.

[Notwendy]

Anything to keep me around is what she wants.

My mother held on to my father's possessions that she knew I wanted- I think for this reason. I think she thought that if I had them, I would not come visit her.

When we visit, she asks if I want anything. She lets me look, and then if she sees that I like something, she takes it away. She does that with the grandkids too. We've just come to expect that, and feel lucky if we get anything.

I am not talking about wanting things for their value. but some things are sentimental to us and we would keep them as memories.

It was sad, but after he died, the only family who sent me pictures of him was on his side. Not my mother. But it was all fear that if she gave them to me, I would not visit her.

[Suzn]

Turkish what you shared about the curtains brings back memories for me. Washing the walls and cleaning house when I was growing up was common place.    Like your mom's comment about the curtains, my mom's comments included "don't touch the windows in the car!" and "get out of there you'll get dirty!" You could eat off the floors at mom's house still today. In the past if she came to visit I planned a whole day of cleaning any little nic and cranny of my house and she would still sweep several times a day during her visit. I haven't spent time cleaning like that before her visiting in years. A few years ago when she visited she told me I should get rid of my dogs because it wasn't sanitary to have them inside. My home and dogs are well cared for but I'm not obsessed with it. As a loving pet owner this comment struck me as cavalier and just ridiculous.

She also has always been into get rich quick schemes, she's shared a few of her investments in these with me once I was an adult. She never followed through with any of them either. I don't recall her doing this as a child though she may have. As an adult before I found the boards I always chalked these up to these giving her something to do since we no longer lived with her. They seemed to be short term obsessions and impulse buying in any case.

My T explained that not allowing us to get dirty, though this was sporadic growing up it's back today with my nephew, was more about us being an extension of her. Her fears about what others might think of her, which really boiled down to what she thought of others who had children who got dirty.   

You mentioned a while back that your mom was visiting the neighbors? With what NW said, do you think there's a chance she fears what someone other than you might think of her?   

I looked up some info on hoarding and perfectionism out of curiosity, to see if they were connected. My mom's perfectionism or neat freakishness is extreme in the other direction. It looks like they are both connected to OCD behaviors. In our homes (there were many) while growing up (when we weren't living with family members) we lived more of a minimalist lifestyle. We rarely had much furniture or possessions. And though she was never a hoarder several of the disorders mentioned below match behaviors she has always struggled with such as social anxiety, anxiety, depression and impulse control (mainly buying clothes for herself). This is interesting...

Compulsive hoarding is most commonly associated with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD).  18-42% of all OCD patients have hoarding and saving compulsions.  However,  33% or hoarders do not have OCD.

Other mental disorders often co-occur with Compulsive Hoarding. Some of the most common are: Social Anxiety;  Anxiety; Depression; Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD); Impulse Control Disorders (compulsive shopping, gambling, etc.) stroke, neurodegenerative disorders (Alzheimer’s, etc.); eating disorders; Autistic Spectrum Disorders; mental retardation; schizophrenia; Tourette’s; compulsive hair pulling.

Hoarders have unusual brain activity that can cause problems with:

Avoidance

Attention and concentration

Decision making

Indecisiveness

Perfectionism

Procrastination

What is the Treatment for Compulsive Hoarding?

Treating hoarding is difficult because hoarders do not usually see their hoarding as a problem.  Hoarders generally have very poor motivation to clean up their hoard.

Hoarding is notoriously resistant to treatment.

Medications do not work—although they might help in conjunction with proper therapy.

Standard talk therapy does not work.

Cognitve-Behavioral Therapy (CBT) which is specifically tailored to target the cognitive and behavioral symptoms of hoarding has been found to be effective.

CBT works with the connections between thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. There is a strong emphasis on changing behavior. Changing behavior is an effective way to increase functioning, increase rational thinking, and decrease negative feelings.

Group treatment can be more effective than individual treatment.

Effective treatment for hoarding involves education, interventions that target specific aspects of hoarding (decision making, not acquiring items, organization, difficulty with discarding, etc.)

The hoarder must be in charge of getting rid of the hoard themselves.  It is counter-productive to successful treatment of hoarding for others to get rid of the hoard.  It can be helpful for other people to help with getting rid of the hoard, but the hoarder must be in charge of the process.

[Woolspinner2000]

Turkish,

Your post reminded me of some of my uBPDm's behaviors too. When she would come up to visit, she would 'take charge' of a particular area and tell us, ":)on't touch that! It's mine for the time I'm here." Usually she'd chose to do the dishes. She also would clean and organize any area I said I needed help with. It varied visit by visit but was a consistent hallmark of her coming. Like you, I didn't mind it either. Rather it was helpful to me since I had 3 young children running around and no time for me to take care of such things. I think your summary is right to the point: 

1. Her previous living situation was overwhelming, even though it was literally a mess of her own making. Looking back at least to age 12 when I realized it, she was always a hoarder: stuff, food, animals... .even people.

2. It's about controlling her environment.

3. The most common factor centers around anxiety, and whatever she has the power to do to reduce its existence, soothing her mind.

The other posts also indicate that it is a way to help the anxiety and to be in control of something. I totally agree. I think that our BPDs search for a way to be comfortable in their environment, and when coming to visit or stay with someone else, they are instinctively searching for that comfort and self-soothing but often chose unhealthy means of doing so thus the OCD coming out. They've never taken on the healing options we have to learn better ways to deal with the stress.

Wools

[Sunfl0wer]

Possibly a different perspective:

When I am a 'guest' in someone else's home... .sometimes... .I have a compulsion to clean.

I have identified this as growing up in a household where I was not valued.  I was raised to not feel that I had any worth, unless contributing to chore tasks.  Contributing to chores, made me feel safe, sometimes brought me positive attention, or otherwise helped me to not be a target of abuse.  If I am busy doing a chore, I am safer.

So in times of anxiety, I sometimes (not always) engage in excessive chores.

[Notwendy]

My mother has some OCD traits about her house but she doesn't clean. She's had people do it as long as I can recall. By high school we had serous financial issues and dad had gone into debt- yet would not say no to her shopping, or household help.

I also did the cleaning when the hired help wasn't there. I was so concerned about dads stress over money I even asked to do all of it, but she would not let me saying I didn't do it well enough. When I visit I cook, and clean up but she wants to control it down to where I put the trash bin out- to the inch. If I left a toy or book out when I was a kid she would throw it away.

But when she visits she does not lift a finger to do anything in my house. She even once told me she feels sorry for me that I have to "work"in my house like doing dishes,cleaning, driving kids- none of which I saw her do, but to me it is part of being responsible and what I do as a parent.

[Turkish]

I think that our BPDs search for a way to be comfortable in their environment, and when coming to visit or stay with someone else, they are instinctively searching for that comfort and self-soothing but often chose unhealthy means of doing so thus the OCD coming out. They've never taken on the healing options we have to learn better ways to deal with the stress.

This is a good reminder, applicable on all boards, no matter the r/s. It's a simple summary, but easy to forget!