Insight into the BPD mind

[Lifewriter16]

The other day, my BPDxbf asked me to reflect upon why I push him away. He said he thought it might help me. I posted that reflection on the Personal Inventory Board:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289001.msg12720635#msg12720635).

I then sent him a slightly moderated version. Here are the significant bits of the email exchange that resulted:


BPDxbf "I read your reply and it didn't surprise me, because I recognise the pattern. I could have written it myself a couple of years ago. The reason I did the push-pull thing was because of the conflict between the intense need to be loved and the feelings of mistrust and defectiveness I felt. I yearned to be loved yet when it came I pushed it away because I couldn't have exactly what I needed. The truth that I found is no single person can fulfill that need, it has to come in small doses from a lot of people. This takes some work, and I started with the 'love diary' in which I wrote anything anyone did or said that could count as an act of love - even down to someone smiling at me unexpectedly... .Do you see what I'm getting at? The trick is to recognise that you don't need the intense love of one person, because you are loved by lots of people on different levels.

I hope this helps."

Lifewriter "I think you're the first man to ever truly try to love me, that's why it's so intimidating. I've never let anyone in before."

BPDxbf "Maybe you need to let me in a bit more slowly and gently, so it isn't so overwhelming for me."

Lifewriter "In what way have you felt overwhelmed? I have always felt like you wanted it all now and that slowly wasn't okay with you or enough for you, or is that me? I'd prefer slowly but I do need reassurance that you are staying around. How come we don't seem to be able to keep the brakes on? I don't want to be anywhere else but with you. I just want to feel safe too."

BPDxbf "I'm confused now. At the moment I can only offer friendship, I don't want to go through the cycle of getting close then breaking up. It hurts too much."

Lifewriter "I'm confused now too. These two statements seem contradictory:

"Maybe you need to let me in a bit more slowly and gently, so it isn't so overwhelming for me."

"At the moment I can only offer friendship, I don't want to go through the cycle of getting close then breaking up. It hurts too much."

Can you clarify?"

BPDxbf "I don't want a close relationship. Letting me in slowly means I want some distance between us. We'll have to see what works comfortably for both of us"

Lifewriter "What's distance look like in practise?"

BPDxbf "That we try to be friends if possible"

Lifewriter "The prospect of distance strikes fear to my soul. Distance makes me think: 'He's gonna leave me'. Rejection is a massive trigger for me. Ironic (since we're not together) that even the thought of it causes a certain amount of panic. I am so neurotic. Having said that, I too seem to operate better with a little distance and I need to deal with whatever it is that is causing the reaction I have outlined in the last paragraph. Don't assume that I'll be able tell what you are comfortable with though. You will have to tell me, I won't be able to intuit it."

BPDxbf "I mean comfortable for you. I take things as they come. The fear of rejection probably scares most people, its a lot bigger if you have other issues."

Lifewriter "I had got the impression that you needed to be closer than I was comfortable with. What do you think was really going on then?"

BPDxbf "I think it doesn't matter. We're not together so let's focus on our own issues instead of going over the past again and again"

Lifewriter "I think it does matter because if I have completely misread you, I need to know how otherwise I will do the same again even if we are only friends.

BPDxbf "You were projecting your need onto me. That's why you kissed me that day in [the town centre] and I got annoyed and stopped seeing you"

Lifewriter "That doesn't feel right."

BPDxbf "Maybe we should leave it then."


I did drop it. There's no point in pushing to the point of dysregulation.


I'd be interested in your observations on this exchange.

Love Lifewriter x

[MapleBob]

He sounds like he wants you to just accept that he doesn't make any sense, and that he wants you to go with him on this "friends if possible" thing. My ex did the same thing. Didn't work for us, but it might work for you two.

[Lou12]

It feels to me like there are two people who have issues with maintaining a healthy relationship. Lifewriter needs reassurance, bf doesn't have the ability to provide what lifewriter needs.

I predict that bf could be willing to go along with a relationship with LR as long as LR doesn't put any emotional demands on the relationship.

The minute LR asks for more than clarification and wants to talk deep, bf clearly pulls away.

This exchange is not unlike how most men react to emotional exchanges. LR pulls for responses, Bf pushes away.

Over all bf makes sense to me. He would be open to a relationship with little emotional demand. But LR needs the emotional reassurance.

This push pull is very similar to what me and my BPD bf have but it's also very similar to the exchanges me and my non BPDxh had before we got serious. I backed away and allowed him to lead the way emotionally. I also changed my tactic from getting him to emotionally invest in the relationship to putting lots of fun in the relationship and accepting that's he couldn't give me that level of intimacy. 1 year later he proposed.

X

[Moselle]

Lifewriter, thanks for your post.

My first observation is that he sounds very aware and open about the issues. Most times this is hidden away behind shame and denial. Has he been diagnosed? 

Second, there are two fears at play here. Fear of engulfment and fear of rejection. This is driver behind push/pull. Each time we get close, one of the fears is triggered. If its engulfment, he pulls away, that triggers your fear of rejection. And so the cycle continues. I've heard babies have two fears, the fear of falling and loud noises. the rest are learned. Core work around these fears, where they came from and care around triggers and compassion for eachother's pain, is the only way through.

Third, it is healthy to have lots of friends but it is a lot of work to maintain lots of relationships. Its one of the pragmatic reasons why we marry, or develop a relationship with one person. A one stop shop from most of our needs and wants in one relationship, and healthy ones reciprocate that.  Then we can get on with the business of life, knowing we have someone in our corner. This however needs trust and preferably consistency.

Fourth, its sometimes hard to make sense of these relationships. Its a chaotic. We become enmeshed and lose perspective.

[C.Stein]

LF it seems to me your ex is very lucid at the moment.  It also seems like you both have issues with rejection/abandonment and are expecting too much from each other.  Combine that with his push/pull and when he is pushing you are pulling.  It is a combination that leads to a lot of misunderstanding and pain ... .and more fear.

Everyone fears rejection/abandonment, some more than others.  I know I did with my ex and she exacerbated those fears with her behavior.  How do you deal with this?  

There are healthy and unhealthy ways to manage this fear and I suspect given his push/pull proclivity your attempts to manage this fear results in an unhealthy outcome for both of you.  It seems like you are letting your fears control you or at least heavily influence your behavior.   You seem to be looking for something from him that he simply cannot give you.  Honestly, I don't think anyone can give you what you are looking for.  Nothing is cast in stone in life and the fear of rejection/abandonment will always be present regardless of who you are with until you confront it within yourself.  You can't do anything about him but you can do something for yourself.  You can free yourself from this fear.

How can you find a way to become more grounded, to stop living in the future and live in the now?  In the past I have found yoga and meditation helped immensely to ground me.  It helped me become more self-aware, more emotionally balanced, to live and experience life in the moment not the past or future.

Isn't that what the fear of abandonment/rejection all about ... .fear of a potential future?  This fear keeps you firmly stuck in the mud of potential futures that may or may not occur.  It keeps you from living your life in the here and now.  You are stuck in a perpetual "what if" future loop where the fear keeps feeding itself.  His push/pull is also feeding that fear from the outside.

Perhaps the way you can release yourself from these fears is to release yourself from having expectations from anyone other than yourself?

[Lou12]

Isn't that what the fear of abandonment/rejection all about ... .fear of a potential future?  This fear keeps you firmly stuck in the mud of potential futures that may or may not occur.  It keeps you from living your life in the here and now.  You are stuck in a perpetual "what if" future loop where the fear keeps feeding itself.  His push/pull is also feeding that fear from the outside.

Perhaps the way you can release yourself from these fears is to release yourself from having expectations from anyone other than yourself?

Very good C.Stein!

[GreenEyedMonster]

Perhaps the way you can release yourself from these fears is to release yourself from having expectations from anyone other than yourself?

The problem with this is that it only works in very early stages of a relationship, unless you choose to spend your life alone.  You really can't have a marriage, for example, with no expectations from someone other than yourself.  Sharing finances, resources, time, and family means that you just can't ignore whether the other person is pulling his/her weight.  After some very scarring relationship experiences when I was young, I became a very independent woman.  Now I find that when I only depend on myself, I attract very helpless/needy men, BPD or NPD types.  It's ironically a liability.

It's true that no one can guarantee you a particular future.  Even a spectacularly committed man could die in a car accident on the way home from work.  So I think a lot of it is about changing your attitude about yourself and these potential futures you imagine.  I've made it through things in my life that I would have thought would kill me.  You're far more resilient than you think you are.

One strategy worth considering is to hold back with partners early in the relationship.  Seeing your partner's pace and commitment level gives you a lot of information about how they feel about you and whether they are stable.  For example, last night I just had a man back out of a date for a second time.  I'm not emotionally attached to him yet, thanks to my desire to observe him first, and now I have some information about him.  The fact that he makes commitments and backs out of them (including his previous marriage) goes to show that he is probably too unstable to not trigger my abandonment fears.  On the other hand, a man who remains positive, friendly, and supportive even if I hit a rough patch during the early part of the relationship is exactly the kind of person I need.  (My exBPD/NPD seemed that way, but it turns out it was only because I was supply . . . )  Another guy, on a second date, made some remark about how I'll probably have some partners after him.  That told me that he wasn't that serious.  Big clue.  Stay emotionally independent and strong at the beginning, and unless they are super gifted at mirroring you, most of the unstable guys will reveal themselves.

Ending up in a situation where you need someone a lot more than he needs you is the worst case scenario for someone with abandonment fears, but I think it's preventable.

[C.Stein]

The problem with this is that it only works in very early stages of a relationship, unless you choose to spend your life alone.  You really can't have a marriage, for example, with no expectations from someone other than yourself.  Sharing finances, resources, time, and family means that you just can't ignore whether the other person is pulling his/her weight.

To be clear, the expectations I was referring to are those where you "expect" another person to fulfil an internal need.   In this case the expectation would be for the ex to sooth the internal fear of rejection/abandonment Lifewriter is feeling. This is not the same as what you have outlined above.

[blackbirdsong]

Perhaps the way you can release yourself from these fears is to release yourself from having expectations from anyone other than yourself?

The problem with this is that it only works in very early stages of a relationship, unless you choose to spend your life alone.  You really can't have a marriage, for example, with no expectations from someone other than yourself.  Sharing finances, resources, time, and family means that you just can't ignore whether the other person is pulling his/her weight.  After some very scarring relationship experiences when I was young, I became a very independent woman.  Now I find that when I only depend on myself, I attract very helpless/needy men, BPD or NPD types.  It's ironically a liability.

It's true that no one can guarantee you a particular future.  Even a spectacularly committed man could die in a car accident on the way home from work.  So I think a lot of it is about changing your attitude about yourself and these potential futures you imagine.  I've made it through things in my life that I would have thought would kill me.  You're far more resilient than you think you are.

One strategy worth considering is to hold back with partners early in the relationship.  Seeing your partner's pace and commitment level gives you a lot of information about how they feel about you and whether they are stable.  For example, last night I just had a man back out of a date for a second time.  I'm not emotionally attached to him yet, thanks to my desire to observe him first, and now I have some information about him.  The fact that he makes commitments and backs out of them (including his previous marriage) goes to show that he is probably too unstable to not trigger my abandonment fears.  On the other hand, a man who remains positive, friendly, and supportive even if I hit a rough patch during the early part of the relationship is exactly the kind of person I need.  (My exBPD/NPD seemed that way, but it turns out it was only because I was supply . . . )  Another guy, on a second date, made some remark about how I'll probably have some partners after him.  That told me that he wasn't that serious.  Big clue.  Stay emotionally independent and strong at the beginning, and unless they are super gifted at mirroring you, most of the unstable guys will reveal themselves.

Ending up in a situation where you need someone a lot more than he needs you is the worst case scenario for someone with abandonment fears, but I think it's preventable.

I don't want to sound as a stalker, but I am following your posts and I really like the way you present your views.

When I grow up (considering BPD r/s  healing path) I want to be just like you  

Now I find that when I only depend on myself, I attract very helpless/needy men, BPD or NPD types.



Can you explain this maybe in more detail... .

I see this pattern that it is likely that you will attract someone who is needy because you can supply. But how do you define this concept of "being dependent only on myself"

[Lou12]

BBS that wasn't my quote, don't want to take any credit haha.

Yes I have to agree with you, GEM and I talk quite a bit and she does explain things very well

[Lou12]

Your crazy ex bf might not appreciate you GEM but we certainly do

[thisworld]

Hello Lifewriter,

I'll offer my observations but I'm afraid I may be a bit negative due to my own experiences or I may have become a bit more cruel, dismissive, questioning because of my hurt and anger. So, I do apologize if my comments feel too negative or unfair to your ex. I don't know about your past with him or I don't know him at all, so maybe I'm just being judgmental. Still, for the sake of variety in perspectives:

I think if someone spoke to me the way your ex did, I would feel uncomfortable because he seems to be shifting the ground a lot and is being evasive. To the reader, it feels obvious that you are talking within a more emotional context  (being loved by him), he is responding to this by joining in (you need to let me in... .) and two minutes later, he wants to be friends. This seems kind of incoherent to me, like he doesn't seem to have a framework, a context that is supposed to surround this conversation somehow. Maybe he did a pull-push in this very conversation, maybe he was afraid of saying no straight away for some reason or bringing the topic back to his own focus (or to a more truthful stage where he is more direct about this his need (friendship). However, he seems a bit unempathetic because if he is aware of the emotional situation (you are talking in more intimate terms and he wants to be friends and he should probably be aware of this by now) he could approach you a bit more sensitively (because you may have to experience rejection soon). He should also avoid statements that could mean a glimmer of hope. If he isn't aware of an emotional framework, well, that's not very positive, either. I think, under what I may call a superficial awareness of his own issues, he seems a bit unaware to me. (Again though, I do seriously apologize if I'm reacting to my own triggers, here.)


"I read your reply and it didn't surprise me, because I recognise the pattern. I could have written it myself a couple of years ago. The reason I did the push-pull thing was because of the conflict between the intense need to be loved and the feelings of mistrust and defectiveness I felt. I yearned to be loved yet when it came I pushed it away because I couldn't have exactly what I needed. The truth that I found is no single person can fulfill that need, it has to come in small doses from a lot of people. This takes some work, and I started with the 'love diary' in which I wrote anything anyone did or said that could count as an act of love - even down to someone smiling at me unexpectedly... .Do you see what I'm getting at? The trick is to recognise that you don't need the intense love of one person, because you are loved by lots of people on different levels.

I hope this helps."

I think this is misguided at some level as being loved intensely by some person and different bits of love from other people are not contradictory things. My ex could justify constant attention and "little love" seeking by the last sentence. So, what matters is what people do with these statements I guess. I personally would not trust this coming from my ex; only you can know what he means by this.

"Maybe you need to let me in a bit more slowly and gently, so it isn't so overwhelming for me."

This read strange to me at first. Yes, he seems to offer a solution, he seems self-aware but at the same time, you have just made a statement, a courageous and probably difficult statement about yourself and he responded with his feeling of being overwhelmed. I don't find this validating. I would feel strange, this feeling would grow when he mentions "friendship".  

"I'm confused now. At the moment I can only offer friendship, I don't want to go through the cycle of getting close then breaking up. It hurts too much."

I understand what you mean so well in your comment before the sentence above. My ex came very strongly, like an all or nothing and then I was given many different narratives. When held accountable he gets confused.


Lifewriter "I'm confused now too. These two statements seem contradictory:

"Maybe you need to let me in a bit more slowly and gently, so it isn't so overwhelming for me."

"At the moment I can only offer friendship, I don't want to go through the cycle of getting close then breaking up. It hurts too much."

Can you clarify?"

Exactly. I think it's contradictory for him to have this talk this way until you bring up the contradiction.

"Letting me in slowly means I want some distance between us."

To me, this may be very BPD. Not exactly being able to let go but not approaching, either. It would leave me confused and maybe even angry if I believed he was manipulating me. So, you'll let him in slowly but is he going to agree with being let in slowly? Will he put or continue his efforts into being let in? How will that happen if he wants distance? Why no mention of the effort but only the distance? The reassurance you are seeking is obviously not there.

"That we try to be friends if possible"

If he wanted to be just friends he should have told this before this convo got here I think.

BPDxbf "I think it doesn't matter. We're not together so let's focus on our own issues instead of going over the past again and again"

Again and again! How invalidating. My ex does this when he doesn't want to speak anymore. This invalidation may be a coping skill and I understand his stress but it's still invalidation.

"You were projecting your need onto me. That's why you kissed me that day in [the town centre] and I got annoyed and stopped seeing you"

This reads like one of my ex's narrative rewriting. He does this with issues he feels ashamed for.  

"Maybe we should leave it then."

Again would feel invalidating even if he is stressed. (I got this so many times, maybe that's why I have a chip on my shoulder).

So, these are my observations.

Have a good day,

[GreenEyedMonster]

I don't want to sound as a stalker, but I am following your posts and I really like the way you present your views.

When I grow up (considering BPD r/s  healing path) I want to be just like you  

Now I find that when I only depend on myself, I attract very helpless/needy men, BPD or NPD types.



Can you explain this maybe in more detail... .

I see this pattern that it is likely that you will attract someone who is needy because you can supply. But how do you define this concept of "being dependent only on myself"

I'm glad that you find my posts interesting or helpful.  Feel free to PM me if you wish.

There is an event in my past that I am hesitant to publish here because it would make me very personally identifiable to my ex should he stalk here.  So without going into detail, I will say that it was an event where I put a great deal of faith in a person close to me, and was disappointed in a cinematically awful way.  It resulted in very public humiliation. This person had set me up to envision a certain future for my life that depended on him succeeding at certain tasks, and so when he failed, it rewrote my entire life.

This taught me that assuming that other people will fulfill my dreams for me is naive and risky.  :)eciding that I will live where I want, buy a house, go on nice vacations, etc. "when I get married" is giving my future potential husband way too much power over me.  Imagine, for example, the woman who settles down with a man who is all wrong for her, because she's ready to have a family and her biological clock is ticking.  I have learned to look at my dreams and decide to do them on my own, not waiting for anyone else to help or encourage me.  That is self-sufficiency.  For example, I always thought I'd wait to buy a house with my future husband.  But I don't have a future husband right now.  So I bought a house I liked all by myself.  

See C.Stein's posts on needs and wants.  I might *want* to do these things with someone else, but I don't need to.  I need to take care of myself.

Unfortunately, when men see my independence, they mistakenly assume that I am in a position to mother them and that I have no real needs they must meet.  "This woman owns her own house, has an established career, and seems happy.  I bet she can make me happy too!" seems to be what they think.  So I have attracted a string of men who live in their parents' basements and have no savings, have failed careers, anxiety disorders, divorce in their past, no friends, etc. because they see a relationship with me as a quick way to get all of the things they have been unable to obtain in life.  A man who had obtained his own goals on his own without help would be an "equal" match for me, but those men tend not to like women who are as independent as I am.  Men also mistakenly think that because I can take care of myself, this means that they won't have to take care of me at all.  I like being taken care of as much as the next person.  I like a man who is thoughtful, buys me nice birthday presents, takes me out to dinner, dresses up for me, surprises me with a nice text or call, or plans a nice vacation to go on together.  (And I had a relationship that was all that and more, once upon a time.)  I was lamenting to my dad today that I can take care of myself so much better than any of these men seem willing to do.  :)ad agrees with me that I've developed a problem and I need to be vigilant about who I let into my life.

When I am in a relationship, and I make the decision to trust someone and open up, I do become more dependent on them.  I become very sensitive to rejection.  So I try to only let people close to me who are stable and dependable and not mired down by their own issues.  I depend on myself unless another person proves that he is trustworthy.

Does that answer your questions?

[blackbirdsong]

I don't want to sound as a stalker, but I am following your posts and I really like the way you present your views.

When I grow up (considering BPD r/s  healing path) I want to be just like you  

Now I find that when I only depend on myself, I attract very helpless/needy men, BPD or NPD types.



Can you explain this maybe in more detail... .

I see this pattern that it is likely that you will attract someone who is needy because you can supply. But how do you define this concept of "being dependent only on myself"

I'm glad that you find my posts interesting or helpful.  Feel free to PM me if you wish.

There is an event in my past that I am hesitant to publish here because it would make me very personally identifiable to my ex should he stalk here.  So without going into detail, I will say that it was an event where I put a great deal of faith in a person close to me, and was disappointed in a cinematically awful way.  It resulted in very public humiliation. This person had set me up to envision a certain future for my life that depended on him succeeding at certain tasks, and so when he failed, it rewrote my entire life.

This taught me that assuming that other people will fulfill my dreams for me is naive and risky.  :)eciding that I will live where I want, buy a house, go on nice vacations, etc. "when I get married" is giving my future potential husband way too much power over me.  Imagine, for example, the woman who settles down with a man who is all wrong for her, because she's ready to have a family and her biological clock is ticking.  I have learned to look at my dreams and decide to do them on my own, not waiting for anyone else to help or encourage me.  That is self-sufficiency.  For example, I always thought I'd wait to buy a house with my future husband.  But I don't have a future husband right now.  So I bought a house I liked all by myself.  

See C.Stein's posts on needs and wants.  I might *want* to do these things with someone else, but I don't need to.  I need to take care of myself.

Unfortunately, when men see my independence, they mistakenly assume that I am in a position to mother them and that I have no real needs they must meet.  "This woman owns her own house, has an established career, and seems happy.  I bet she can make me happy too!" seems to be what they think.  So I have attracted a string of men who live in their parents' basements and have no savings, have failed careers, anxiety disorders, divorce in their past, no friends, etc. because they see a relationship with me as a quick way to get all of the things they have been unable to obtain in life.  A man who had obtained his own goals on his own without help would be an "equal" match for me, but those men tend not to like women who are as independent as I am.  Men also mistakenly think that because I can take care of myself, this means that they won't have to take care of me at all.  I like being taken care of as much as the next person.  I like a man who is thoughtful, buys me nice birthday presents, takes me out to dinner, dresses up for me, surprises me with a nice text or call, or plans a nice vacation to go on together.  (And I had a relationship that was all that and more, once upon a time.)  I was lamenting to my dad today that I can take care of myself so much better than any of these men seem willing to do.  :)ad agrees with me that I've developed a problem and I need to be vigilant about who I let into my life.

When I am in a relationship, and I make the decision to trust someone and open up, I do become more dependent on them.  I become very sensitive to rejection.  So I try to only let people close to me who are stable and dependable and not mired down by their own issues.  I depend on myself unless another person proves that he is trustworthy.

Does that answer your questions?

Yes, totally. And I know what you are trying to say, from my own experience. I also wanted to take care of my exGF. Saw a lot of things that I can 'offer'. BPD offers a lot of potential for this.   And this is my problem but I was pretty unaware of it before BPDgf. I tought of this as my biggest virtue.

As you described it, I would respect all your values and things that you have achieved but still go to BPDgf because I could provide a supply for her needs, not even considering if she can fulfill mine. Codependency at its best.

After I broke up with my exBDGgf and started some work on my inner self, I taught about all those girls from my past that were really nice girls, emotionally healthy but I didn't want to involve with them because of this pattern. It gave me impression that it will be boring, withouth the 'soulmate passion' that my exBPDgf offered. Really stupid.  

I still think that I posess some really good personality characteristics, I just need to learn how to value myself and my needs in a healthier way.

[GreenEyedMonster]

After a lot of reading and reflection, and especially the DSM-5's description, I believe that my exBPD is heavy on NPD, if not primarily NPD.

I had succeeded at a lot of things in life that he had tried and failed at.  So in a way, I was like a human catapult into adulthood for him.  I offered things like financial stability, health insurance, and career connections that he had been unable to obtain himself.  We work in the same field and have the same professional certification.  Being with me offered him a sort of credibility, maybe even connections to get a job.  (Unfortunately for him, with the way he treated me, he did some serious damage to his professional reputation, because I do know a fair amount of people who might have hired him.)  I was a narcissist's dream.

My experience with needs, wants, and abandonment/engulfment fears is that I need to find someone who needs me almost exactly as much as I need him.  This is more important to me now than liking the same movies or even wanting to live in the same place.  In my first relationship, we were more or less equally matched in how we met each other's needs, until my partner's severe anxiety disorder tipped the scales.  The relationship was more or less stable and lasted a very long time -- 12 years.

[patientandclear]

Perhaps the way you can release yourself from these fears is to release yourself from having expectations from anyone other than yourself?

I don't know that this is realistic with people we let deeply inside our interior emotional landscape.  This DOES require trust and trust IS based on expectations of continued loyalty.

It's one thing to have unfounded fears that have no basis in past patterns in the r/ship.  But when your fears are completely rational, founded, and grounded in the current r/ship (not just triggers from past trauma) -- that is different.  Then, at least as I see it, it is not unhealthy to need assurance or change from the other person in the r/ship that shows attention and care about your legitimate fears.  This is how most couples who recover from infidelity do it, for example.  They do NOT just blindly go forward looking only at the current moment.  Assurance for the future and understanding of the past IS is important, and willful blindness to predictable patterns of hurt is not particularly healthy.

Perhaps the key is to be able to recognize which fears and needs arise from events and patterns in the current relationship, and so should not be ignored or "zenned" away; and which are our own baggage we bring to the r/ship, which the r/ship needs to be protected against, in a sense.

[Lifewriter16]

Thanks everyone for your comments. They are very helpful.

We do both have issues. My BPDxbf is diagnosed and has 6 months DBT and 2 years Schema Therapy under his belt, which is apparent in his ability to reflect, even though the BPD is obviously alive and kicking. I am diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome and I would say that I have traits of Avoidant PD. We have driven each other crazy with rapid cycles of rejection and getting back together over issues that ordinary couples would handle with no problem at all.

This exchange was an experiment. I wanted to see what would happen if I was as completely honest with him as I could possibly be, risking being vulnerable with him instead of reacting with anger to the little slights I perceive. The outcome was unexpected. What it has achieved is that I can see more clearly what he does and doesn't want from me. He is no longer seeking closeness with me and he is trying to tell me to look elsewhere for love. I feel very sad, but this lucid (if slightly confused) exchange shows me that in his eyes, I'm looking for something with him that he just doesn't want with me anymore. He used to say that our dysfunction drove us apart but our devotion to each other was what got us through. Now, it seems that devotion has gone.

The outcome is that I'm attempting to wait until he takes the initiative to contact me. Anything else will just push him further away. But, now I know he is retreating, my urge to pull him back is massive. I am really struggling with this and just want to cry. I feel like I have finally become 'no-one' to him which is difficult because he was everything to me. Indeed, it feels like the final discard I have heard so much about in other people's posts. I used to think my situation was different to other people's, that somehow we would pull through. Now, I know better.

Thanks again, all.

Lifewriter x

[patientandclear]

Perhaps the way you can release yourself from these fears is to release yourself from having expectations from anyone other than yourself?

The problem with this is that it only works in very early stages of a relationship, unless you choose to spend your life alone.  You really can't have a marriage, for example, with no expectations from someone other than yourself.  Sharing finances, resources, time, and family means that you just can't ignore whether the other person is pulling his/her weight.  After some very scarring relationship experiences when I was young, I became a very independent woman.  Now I find that when I only depend on myself, I attract very helpless/needy men, BPD or NPD types.  It's ironically a liability.

It's true that no one can guarantee you a particular future.  Even a spectacularly committed man could die in a car accident on the way home from work.  So I think a lot of it is about changing your attitude about yourself and these potential futures you imagine.  I've made it through things in my life that I would have thought would kill me.  You're far more resilient than you think you are.

One strategy worth considering is to hold back with partners early in the relationship.  Seeing your partner's pace and commitment level gives you a lot of information about how they feel about you and whether they are stable.  For example, last night I just had a man back out of a date for a second time.  I'm not emotionally attached to him yet, thanks to my desire to observe him first, and now I have some information about him.  The fact that he makes commitments and backs out of them (including his previous marriage) goes to show that he is probably too unstable to not trigger my abandonment fears.  On the other hand, a man who remains positive, friendly, and supportive even if I hit a rough patch during the early part of the relationship is exactly the kind of person I need.  (My exBPD/NPD seemed that way, but it turns out it was only because I was supply . . . )  Another guy, on a second date, made some remark about how I'll probably have some partners after him.  That told me that he wasn't that serious.  Big clue.  Stay emotionally independent and strong at the beginning, and unless they are super gifted at mirroring you, most of the unstable guys will reveal themselves.

Ending up in a situation where you need someone a lot more than he needs you is the worst case scenario for someone with abandonment fears, but I think it's preventable.

Oops!  I responded to the same sentence before I saw your comments, GEM.  Right on.

[Lou12]

Lifewriter I didn't see the exchange with your exbf as a negative one. The experiment you put forward was 'you being honest' and that was your experiment. You can't expect any person to behave in puppetry especially not men, BPD or not. Honestly mostvmen do things through actions not with words. Without any words... do you feel this man does nice things for you? Does he try to make some effort? Does he try to look nice for you at times? Does he look at you and you know he cares?  I personally never have and never would go with men's words, I would always judge my actions.

I definitely see a guy who's not seeking closeness but I don't see a guy who's trying to push you out of his life. Men like women who are independant and who don't rely on them for emotional support. So can you blame him for responding this way with such direct open questions from you? What's your thoughts?

If you meant nothing to this guy I wouldn't expect to see responses like that! I would expect more indifference!

Do you feel you may be coming on to strong?

X

[patientandclear]

Thanks everyone for your comments. They are very helpful.

We do both have issues. My BPDxbf is diagnosed and has 6 months DBT and 2 years Schema Therapy under his belt, which is apparent in his ability to reflect, even though the BPD is obviously alive and kicking. I am diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome and I would say that I have traits of Avoidant PD. We have driven each other crazy with rapid cycles of rejection and getting back together over issues that ordinary couples would handle with no problem at all.

This exchange was an experiment. I wanted to see what would happen if I was as completely honest with him as I could possibly be, risking being vulnerable with him instead of reacting with anger to the little slights I perceive. The outcome was unexpected. What it has achieved is that I can see more clearly what he does and doesn't want from me. He is no longer seeking closeness with me and he is trying to tell me to look elsewhere for love. I feel very sad, but this lucid (if slightly confused) exchange shows me that in his eyes, I'm looking for something with him that he just doesn't want with me anymore. He used to say that our dysfunction drove us apart but our devotion to each other was what got us through. Now, it seems that devotion has gone.

The outcome is that I'm attempting to wait until he takes the initiative to contact me. Anything else will just push him further away. But, now I know he is retreating, my urge to pull him back is massive. I am really struggling with this and just want to cry. I feel like I have finally become 'no-one' to him which is difficult because he was everything to me. Indeed, it feels like the final discard I have heard so much about in other people's posts. I used to think my situation was different to other people's, that somehow we would pull through. Now, I know better.

Thanks again, all.

Lifewriter x

Lifewriter -- I sure identify with your reactions here, but do notice, they are reactions.  You're feeling rejected and abandoned and drawing conclusions accordingly that may not be fully warranted.  The very dynamic you are aware and insightful about -- it's playing out right here and now.

Applying what you know about BPD, can you see that his feelings are that he can only offer friendship right now?  That may well not continue to be the case.  (And then whatever comes after that also will not always be the case.)  This is his situation NOW.  Even in this email exchange, he was pushing for more closeness than you were, UNTIL you started to push in the smallest possible way toward a discussion of becoming closer going forward.  Only then did he switch to "friendship" as the paradigm.  As you correctly flagged, that was not consistent with where he was moments earlier.

But you don't need him to reconcile those two statements, do you?  YOU can see and understand the pattern even if he cannot, or denies there was an inconsistency.  (My ex would never own the prior inconsistent statement even if it was quite recent.  Whatever is true now is true.  If he is confronted with actions in the past that are incongruous with his current truth, he is genuinely puzzled about how those things could have happened.)

The pattern is push-pull.  When you are safe because you are pushing, he is interested in how you could "let him in."  Once you become interested in letting him in, he wants to be friends.  He is just managing the distance is all.  He is keeping a specific amount of distance and a specific amount of intimacy in play between you at all times.  THAT is the consistency.

I think your conclusions in your last post are too apocalyptic.  It's very unlikely that you are no one or unimportant or will never return to the status of someone he wants to pull close.  However, has anything changed about what will happen from that point?  It seems (as with my ex) that the awareness that he has that he engages in push-pull and rejects love because it is imperfect, is not stopping him from engaging in exactly that pattern with you.

[Lifewriter16]

Ah, patientandclear, it is so useful to have feedback from someone who is looking in.

You're feeling rejected and abandoned and drawing conclusions accordingly that may not be fully warranted.  The very dynamic you are aware and insightful about -- it's playing out right here and now.

It's so obvious now you point it out. Later, you point out that he's doing what amount to the same thing:

It seems (as with my ex) that the awareness that he has that he engages in push-pull and rejects love because it is imperfect, is not stopping him from engaging in exactly that pattern with you.

I think this is the most enlightening thing anyone has said to me in a long time:

He is keeping a specific amount of distance and a specific amount of intimacy in play between you at all times.  THAT is the consistency.

Love

Lifewriter x

[C.Stein]

I don't know that this is realistic with people we let deeply inside our interior emotional landscape.  This DOES require trust and trust IS based on expectations of continued loyalty.

I agree, within an intimate close relationship it is impossible to not have some expectations of your partner.  With respect to detaching from a partner I believe it is possible and the more safe route to take.  The assumption here (given the forum) is LF16 is detaching from her ex, albeit in a protracted fashion.

[C.Stein]

Lifewriter "I'm confused now too. These two statements seem contradictory:

"Maybe you need to let me in a bit more slowly and gently, so it isn't so overwhelming for me."

"At the moment I can only offer friendship, I don't want to go through the cycle of getting close then breaking up. It hurts too much."

Can you clarify?"

Exactly. I think it's contradictory for him to have this talk this way until you bring up the contradiction.

"Letting me in slowly means I want some distance between us."

To me, this may be very BPD. Not exactly being able to let go but not approaching, either. It would leave me confused and maybe even angry if I believed he was manipulating me. So, you'll let him in slowly but is he going to agree with being let in slowly? Will he put or continue his efforts into being let in? How will that happen if he wants distance? Why no mention of the effort but only the distance? The reassurance you are seeking is obviously not there.

I'm going to pitch the opposite view here for perspective.  If you look at the statements as being spoken from a person who wants to maintain a friendship but is aware the other person perhaps wants more, and he also might consider something more at a later date, then the statements are less incongruous.  

"let me in a bit more slowly and gently" could be, and maybe should be interpreted as 'let's develop a strong friendship first'.

When looked at it in this fashion the second statement does not contradict the first.

Clear and succinct communication is important to avoid misinterpretation of statements.  This first statement is not very clear and leaves generous room for interpretation.  The second is much clearer and succinct which is why it looks to contradict the first.  I might add the first statement is hard to accurately interpret without knowing the person who said it and all the nitty gritty circumstances of the relationship.

When you speak in a fashion that leaves room for interpretation and reading between the lines then you have the potential for problems and mixed messages.

[troisette]

Thanks Thisworld; your comments resonate and are helpful in my present situation. And your observations Greeneyedmonster, make a lot of sense too.

[Lifewriter16]

To be clear, I would rather work things out with my ex, but as soon as I post on 'Staying', he dumps me so I feel I have to detach. Perhaps I should be posting on L2.

Lifewriter x

[C.Stein]

To be clear, I would rather work things out with my ex, but as soon as I post on 'Staying', he dumps me so I feel I have to detach. Perhaps I should be posting on L2.

Lifewriter x

Thanks for making that clear.  Let's consider some stuff here.

From your initial post one thing seems apparent.  Your ex is not in a place emotionally to offer you anything other than friendship at this moment in time.  As soon as he perceives you wanting more it triggers him to push/withdraw and even if he might want more at some point, at this point he is emotionally incapable of it.  Considering what he said he is aware of as much which is a good thing.

This is where the expectations/hope for something more is hurting you and him.  Consider that a healthy long lasting intimate relationship is built on a strong, trusting and mutually respectful friendship.  Perhaps if you work towards that you might find a way back to the intimate relationship.  However it is important to not expect it to happen.  Set a boundary to build that strong and trusting friendship first with no expectation or anticipation for anything more.  If at some point down the road when you and he are more emotionally stable with regard to each other then something more intimate might be possible.

I know it is easier said than done especially since you have been down the rabbit hole already, but honestly ask yourself this.  What other options do you have at this point?

[Lifewriter16]

I wasn't sure where I stood, whether he had hoped I would pop in to see him on Friday and was hurt that I didn't bother (he told me where he would be and told me not to avoid him) or just didn't want to contact me and so hadn't bother. Just in case it was the former, I sent him an email about the book I've been reading. His response says it all.

"Hi there BPDxbf,

I had a fabulous day in [a local town] yesterday at the novel writing course. We looked at symbolism (which I suspect I will never master or even feel inclined to bother with) and the significance of choice of words, lengths/ formats of sentences and the impact of how paragraphs are formed. It was an eye-opener for me. I took myself to Pizza Express for lunch and had a low calorie pizza/salad combination which was absolutely divine. I was in heaven.

I so want to see you and talk to you. I miss you and wish you were here to share my inspiration with.

I spent last night trying to process some feedback I got from other members on the BPD website. It was useful to get that reality check.

Today, I have been reading a book about attachment styles in adult relationships and I am beginning to wonder if the problems that we have been encountering have more to do with that than they ever have had to do with you having BPD or me having AS. One of the people who gave me feedback yesterday observed that when you are pushing me away, I tend to pull you towards me. I wonder if the opposite is true. Another poster suggested that the constant in our relationship is the level of intimacy between us (which is maintained by the push-pull dynamic we are both using).

In Adult Attachment Theory, there are three basic attachment styles, avoidant, anxious and secure and one composite which is anxious-avoidant. I'm pretty clear that we both have anxious attachment, I can't decide if I/we are anxious-avoidant. I would benefit from having some feedback from you on that one.

From what I have read this morning, the very advice I have taken from the BPD website about using withdrawal to enforce boundaries is the very worst thing I could possibly have done because that very withdrawal is activating your attachment system (which is a biological system). The same thing is happening when I withdraw to deal with my stuff or I do something that hurts you unintentionally (and intentionally though that's so rare). Basically, the attachment system functions to regain emotional contact with the primary attachment, which has biological functions from an evolutionary perspective.

The outcome of the attachment system being activated in people who are anxiously attached is that protest behaviours can be manifested: withdrawing, acting hostile, threatening to leave, ignoring phone calls or texts, keeping score of contact, lying about being too busy to meet etc etc. In our case, your protest behaviours activate my own attachment system and my own set of protest behaviour any my protest behaviours activate your attachment system. We end up in a vicious cycle of hurt and stress. Somewhere along the line there is a trigger that sets it all off. Reassurance makes the system go back to baseline levels. If that reassurance isn't given, a cycle begins. The awful bit is that if the system is triggered, in anxiously attached people they are primed to see threat at a lower threshold level than securely attached people, thus the system is over sensitive too. I hope this makes sense.

I think this could explain how we can love each other so much and yet still be struggling so much to maintain a healthy relationship. I don't see when you are hurt. I don't give you the reassurance you need or I react inappropriately and the system is up and running and before we know it, it's over... .because I don't realise that you don't want to break up and are really wanting reassurance. I think you do because who would want to be with me anyway. It is a mess. All I know is that I want us to work it out.

Here's the link to the book, just in case it does interest you:

www.amazon.co.uk/Attached-Science-Adult-Attachment-Help/dp/1585429139/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453029537&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=r+heller+attached

Love Lifewriter xx"


He replied:

"Thanks for this, but I'm not really interested because we no longer have a relationship and you need to accept that. I don't want to meet up with you and I don't want to be with you. I want to move on and be with someone else. We've tried and tried but it just doesn't work. We obviously aren't meant for each other. I know this will hurt, but please don't email to tell me about it. Tell someone else because I can't deal with it.

Please don't contact me again."

I did feel it was the final discard... .

How on earth am I going to stop myself from contacting him? I threw away his address and deleted his mobile phone number months ago. Email was the last remaining connection apart from bumping into each other by chance, which is pretty rare. I've asked him to block me from his end. I am struggling to stop contacting him because I just can't believe that he means it, I just can't believe it's true. I have been acting like a desperate woman since April when the break-up make/up cycles began.

Any suggestions for becoming a sane, sensible human being?

Love Lifewriter x

[C.Stein]

Any suggestions for becoming a sane, sensible human being?

As hard as it may be to accept it would appear the only option you have at this point is to step away.  Based on his response it would appear the more you attempt to hold onto him the further you push him away.  

I received a similar email from my ex, very cold and detached, with the announcement that I had been replaced and by all appearances before I was thrown away.  As much as a part of me wants to hold onto her I am forced to play the hand she dealt me, which always seemed to be the case during our relationship.

You cannot force him to be with you so you are at a fork in the road right now.  You can either put your life on hold hoping he might circle back around or decide to let it all go.   I wish I could help you with that decision but I can't.  All I can tell you is think of your own well being now and make the decision that will move you in a positive direction with regard to your own life.

[Lifewriter16]

Thanks for being here for me throughout today, C.Stein. It's such a hard time for me. I feel so sad.

As you say, I am at a fork in the road. I can continue to waste my time hoping he'll change his mind (and probably end up in another 2 week recycle) or I can get on with my life. I shall do the latter. The crux of it is that I need to let go of my fantasy BPDxbf, so I can let the real one go too. That's not so easy to do. Fantasy has been my main coping mechanism for dealing with the cold emotional climate I have lived in my whole life. I have fantasised that my grandparents (who seemed to love me more, but who lived at a distance so I didn't see enough of them to get evidence to the contrary) were my real parents, fantasised about becoming part of my friend's family, fantasised that men loved me so much more than they clearly did. I need to axe the fantasy because my BPDxbf is clearly not minded to try and sort this out and it would take two of us, plus outside help.

I need a minor miracle... .

Love Lifewriter

[thisworld]

Lifewriter hi,

I'm sorry to hear what you have been going through. Receiving a very direct e-mail right after putting so much effort into trying to improve something can be very difficult. How do you feel about it?

I think you have done something good for yourself by preventing contact points like e-mail. It helps many of us to focus better on ourselves and our healing. Communication with them seems to be very confusing during this process. What is your real fear, not being able to stop contacting him although he very clearly said he doesn't want to be with you or not being able to stop the desire to communicate with him as you have so far known him? Both are very understandable, but would probably give you different places to start your recovery. (I have seen that you have just posted a reply about this anyway, sorry for the repetition)

As for the sane and sensible human being, I think we are all sane and sensible human beings with some insane behaviours that were mostly reactions to a difficult  situation or a dynamic. When I think about the insanity of things I went through, I have always seen two kinds of insanity (which are connected). One was my outward behaviour but the other was the insanity of accepting so much burden on my shoulders, so much more than I could reasonably carry (most people could reasonably carry). This risk-taking in itself is insane for me even if it doesn't manifest in outward behaviour. These two different insanities require me to focus on different things, the first is more related with my FOO and boundaries, the second is some entrenched behaviour habits or skills/lack of skills.

You say you have been acting like a desperate woman since April. Could this judgment include something that belongs to an eye that's not yours? Do you really feel this, did you, or do you think he thinks you are desperate? And how exactly were you desperate? Desperate for his love, desperate to support your partner in the best way you knew so that your relationship would not fall into pieces? Sometimes, there is great strength and courage in desperate actions, too. That these were not recognized by our partners doesn't change this fact. Would you still feel like a desperate person, if you had received a kinder final message from him, thanking you for your courageous efforts, telling you that you are an admirable person, but he wants something else for himself? How does that final message make you feel? I would start my recovery by looking at that feeling first.

At this point, I wouldn't take certain things your partner says personally - I know it's tremendously difficult not to take a discard personally. But your gift for insight in all this, your honest efforts may have brought things to a critical point where he would either have to look at himself fearlessly, or leave. Not everyone wants these gifts, not everyone wishes to honestly change after a point. This isn't 100% about us.

His last message seems that of an impatient man to me. He too seems to have an issue with boundaries (probably doesn't know how to say no kindly but assertively and feels that he has taken too much on his shoulders). Please do not take his negativity as something representing the whole truth about yourself. It's important to treat yourself kindly and lovingly, and you will have a lot of time for introspection anyway.

How do you think you could start looking after better yourself right now?

My heart and thoughts are with you