Finally got a good nights sleep

[formflier]

Continuing on from the saga below.  Hopefully my posts are a bit more clear now that I'm only half a zombie,

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289120.0;all

[formflier]

 

Well, I think I saw the moment last night she switched from the persecutor to the victim.

Grey will get a chuckle out of the agreement thing.

I get home last night and take a hot bath to relax.  I normally shoot to get into bed around 10pm, given my sleep state I figured I would try a bit early.  So around 845 or so I told my wife I was going to try to settle down for sleep around 930.

She got a nasty look on her face and said, I think that 1030 will be fine for you.  We have to finish watching our movie.

We is my wife, wife's sister, couple of my kids and nieces and nephews.

Well, I asked her if she was not going to honor our agreement that I would stay in hotel and tonight she would give me quiet.  She said exactly, you'll get quiet sometime tonight and I say 1030.   

ok, so I jaded a bit, or a lot.  I said "FF wife, I'm sleep deprived, I'm probably not talking to you very nicely right now, I have to be able to sleep.  She said I slept fine in the hotel last night, to which I simply said "No I did not."  She said it didn't make any sense.  I didn't offer anything further.

Then like snapping your fingers she mad a dramatic gesture and said fine "We'll go upstairs to finish our movie".

Note:  I'm not aware of any TVs upstairs, but I didn't engage.  I went back in hung out in the bath some more and got in bed around 930.  No interruptions.  Passable nights sleep.

My sleep is obviously weird.  There is this momentum thing.  A couple good nights sleep will result in more good nights sleep and a few bad nights will keep pushing it in the wrong way.

Takes a lot of effort and patience to work through a few grumpy nights to get things back on a good routine.

This morning, she is in true nasty form.  More on that later. 

preview to future post:  She scoffs at the idea that she and her family control my sleep.  "I'm just an a$$hole".


FF

[formflier]

No shocker on her manner this morning.  I guess I was confused about being white yesterday, or maybe it was a brief passing phase.

She demanded I do the laundry today or else she would report me to S7s school counselor since he would not have any clothes to wear and she said she would send him to school tomorrow in only underwear.

Not sure if I want to laugh or cry, so far I've picked chuckling.

She spent most of the morning preaching to the house and then speaking to me like a dog, harsh and nasty.  I would exit rooms, or try to sift through things so see if there is any information I really needed to know.

She texts me that she has arranged for her parents to pick up the kids after school and she and kids would be at her parents house "filling out forms" for a while.

I've asked what forms and haven't gotten a response.

Also said I was open to compromise on kids schedules and I had planned on spending time with them when they got home.

Any comments if this is a place to budge or to hold fast.

In other words, do I get them from bus stop as "normal" and possibly have a confrontation with in-laws, or do I let it slide.

My thinking seems clearer today with some sleep, but I'm definitely not a "full up round"

FF

[Verbena]

What strikes me from reading many of your posts is that your wife seems to have a very strong feeling of contempt for you.  She communicates this to you and to others, including your children.  Is this something you have ever thought about?  Or do you think it's just the BPD that she projects onto you? 

[Verbena]

I'm thinking she knows you want to spend time with the kids which is why she has arranged for them to be elsewhere.  She's using them as a weapon against you.

Filling out forms?  Not sure what that's about.  I would just wait and see how it goes when they get home.  Surely your wife and kids are exhausted from all the "fun" she orchestrated over the weekend. 

I know you can't keep your wife from speaking to you like you're a dog, but have you ever sat the kids down and explained to them that this is not ok? 

[formflier]

She communicates this to you and to others, including your children. 

Yes, it is usually only when she is fired up about something.   

But the attitude is of contempt.

One that makes me chuckle or cry, not sure which.  Several months ago, when disengaging from a verbal assualt I said "FF wife I want to understand what you are saying to me but right now I'm not able to be spoken to like this.  I'm a human being and expect to be treated with dignity."  (yeah I know, it was a bit "preachy"  Sometimes you gotta say what you feel.

She snarls and says "Human being my a$$ and kept speaking, not sure what she said as I had left the room but I could hear her muffled voice continue for a while"

Sigh,

FF

[KateCat]

Greetings, Formflier.

I wanted to harken back briefly to the delicate, judicious work you did over the past eighteen months or so to get help for your family and to keep everyone together.

Here's what I remember, and please correct errors in my recollection: You worked with child protective services, your employer, your religious community, the local police department and various counselors. You were open to all of them and they had up-to-date histories on your family. You also had your parents nearby, and a local attorney with whom you had a working relationship. Your chances of falling victim to false accusations were pretty low as a result of your tireless efforts, and you would have had a good case for 50/50 custody of your children had the situation come to divorce. (This in a community where your family is known and respected, I believe.)

Are many of these hard-won protections now lost to you in this new location, which is also a different state? Does anyone "have your back" here?

[Notwendy]

My 2c is to let it go with the kids. Did you say this is a new school? Every school year and new school there is a pile of forms- health forms for school nurse, emergency contacts, addresses, lunch program. This may be what she's talking about.

You are already in the process of negotiating sleep. She may throw a bunch of stuff at you but getting into that will distract from the main thing which is sleep. Kids to grandparents isn't worth more conflict at this time (IMHO)

The insistence on 10:30 I think was a control thing. She kept her agreement but on her terms. Keeping it on your terms was too much letting go for her. Again- you got your sleep. Maybe have a bedtime agreement 30 minutes before you really want one and let her be squirrely about 30 minutes.

I've seen that nasty contempt from my mother. It's pretty awful. She did it with dad and with us. Don't know what to say about that.

[GaGrl]

Forgive my pessimism, but the reference to filling out forms at her parents' house could be a veiled reference to beating you to the punch on a Legal action, with her family's support. She knows you have used the Legal system before, so she might think why should she not gain advantage in what she perceives to be a powerless situation?

Contempt is an ugly place to live. My T once said that he had little success with couples who came to him with one already having reached a place of contempt.

How does she respond when you name the behavior, I.e. "speaking to me with contempt" rather than "treating me like this"?

[chump]

Hi FF,

Wow, things have really escalated lately.  It’s hard to know what to say that might help, and even reading my own comments to you from a few days ago, they seem so outdated and off the mark, like reading a newspaper from a year ago.  You’re in a war zone at the moment.

A lot has been written on this forum about the difference between boundaries and rules – boundaries are for me (good), rules are for you (not so good).  The first can help me maintain my personal integrity, health and safety, the second is trying to control another person and can pretty quickly degenerate into power struggles, conflict, punishment, retribution, etc.

It seems to me there’s a concept that falls somewhere in the middle, the concept of consequences.  Consequences, as I’m using the term, are not something that we impose on other people, or others impose on us, they exist on their own, as the natural outcomes of choices.  If I step in front of a moving bus, the consequence is I get hit by the bus, not that the bus imposed that consequence on me, it’s just what happens if I make that choice.

As a born “fixer,” I have to continuously remind myself not to put myself between a person and the consequences of their choices.

In the context of high-conflict relationships, the consequences of treating people badly is that they tend to respond badly.  In the best case, they tend to withdraw, in the worst case, they may retaliate. I think this is the fundamental problem for pwBPD, that treating people badly, being rude, unkind, dishonest, abusive, manipulative, etc. tends to have the effect that people avoid them, withdraw, fight back, etc.  All of this leads to the core wound of abandonment, over and over again.

We hero types can easily be tempted to try to save our pwBPD from that predictable outcome by explaining, lecturing, catering, walking on eggshells, etc.  While we know we shouldn’t do that, and we also shouldn’t be imposing consequences (punishing), but it might be less clear that we also shouldn’t protect them from them either.

And to me this is the core challenge of “staying,” to find a way to hold the middle ground between maintaining healthy boundaries for ourselves while avoiding imposing rules and trying to control someone else.  I’m thinking that how we handle natural consequences might be the key to finding that middle ground.

Applying this to your situation FF, it seems like your wife is, at least at the moment, girding for battle.  She seems hell bent on creating conflict with you. And messing with your sleep is poking you right where you’re most vulnerable. And other provocative acts like bringing her dad over in the middle of the night, manipulating the kids, etc, all designed to create and escalate conflict. Her reasons for doing this may be interesting, and have been well discussed, but they don’t really matter when it comes to your sleep.  You have, correctly I think, chosen that as a boundary you can’t waver on.

Here’s where consequences come in.  Her behavior has the logical consequence of alienating her husband and damaging, perhaps permanently, the bonds that hold your marriage together.  Something as basic as your ability to get a good night’s sleep is now under assault.

So I guess my question for you is can you find a way to not only enforce your boundary of getting the sleep you need, however you have to do that, but also allowing the natural consequences of her behavior to play themselves out.  The key would be that you would not impose those consequences, just allow them.  Step aside and allow them to play out.  Focus on protecting yourself and your children.

I know this is pretty theoretical, and not of much practical use, but hopefully will jog something.

Chump

[formflier]

Are many of these hard-won protections now lost to you in this new location, which is also a different state? Does anyone "have your back" here?

Yep, pretty much gone.  Although just because her family is here it doesn't mean that they have advantage.  This is a much, much bigger place.  

Nobody that I know of has my back?  My parents are in town but have no special "local" connections.

KateCat,

Thanks for the recollection.  On the one hand things look ominous, but I don't want to let "fear" or ominous drive my decisions.

I did consider that if we went up here and things went south, if I knew that ahead of time, would I still go.  I think the answer is yes.   So, no second guessing the move.  

More to come

FF

[KateCat]

Agreed! No second-guessing the move.

The reasons for the move were solid, I believe. Chump's reflections above on natural consequences are along the lines of what I was thinking. What happens now will also happen for a reason.

[Verbena]

The forms that are being filled out very well could be school related, but I also thought it could be something else, given her state of mind and that she is filling them out at her dad's house.  She may very well be feeding him "information" about you, and he may be feeding her as well.

I would speak to a lawyer pronto just to get some advice.  I agree that your wife seems to be preparing for battle.  

[KateCat]

Same here.

I don't really know much about the fictional character Rambo, but his name and Sylvester Stallone-ish image keep flashing through my head when I read your recent posts. Because I think I remember that at one point Rambo "invades" an enemy country as an army of one. Or something like that.

The "order to the disorder" just might dictate that your wife take legal action on her own, with help from her family, exactly now. I hope not.

[Notwendy]

Shows how naive I am, thinking school before lawyer.

But she can even wreck havoc with school forms. One thing they ask is who has custody of the kids and who is authorized to pick them up. She will likely authorize her parents- that is OK as grandparents often help with picking up kids. I authorized a friend, in the case that I or my husband were not available. The school will not release the children to anyone not authorized on the forms.

But I would not put it past her to say that only she has custody of the kids and that you are not allowed to pick them up. Parents can do that in the case of a hostile divorce and when one parent does not have custody. Parents also do it to wage war on each other. The school knows that, but they can not do anything without a signed release of the custodial parent.

Since you are a custodial parent, then you need to go to the school and sign the forms yourself- a different set of forms if you have to, because without them, they won't let you pick up the kids. This would not be necessary if parents are in agreement with each other. My H trusted me to put his name on the forms, and I would not have even considered not doing that. However, I don't trust that your wife will considering the way she is acting lately. Unless you see the forms yourself, your name may not be on them.

I could see your wife and her FOO scheming this- on school forms. This might be why she told you not to go. Have you gone there and met the teachers and school? If they have conflicting info from your wife, they may need a lawyer statement that you are a custodial parent.

[KateCat]

I think that's savvy advice, Notwendy, about making sure the school gets to know both parents. A number of people posting on the Legal board have found that to be essential for any number of issues, if I remember correctly.

[Verbena]

I'm in the dark about the past connections with CPS/police/lawyers.  Is there a link to those posts? 

[formflier]

I think that's savvy advice, Notwendy, about making sure the school gets to know both parents. A number of people posting on the Legal board have found that to be essential for any number of issues, if I remember correctly.

Yep, spoke with a L and getting set up for a consultation, to know what I am up against here.

Also trying to be judicious and consider my actions from the point of view of upholding boundaries (that are critical) and what actions would be tossing gas on a fire that doesn't need any more fuel.

So I suspect today I will suck it up and not get any help from kids since they will be taken to grandparents house and stare at a TV for a few hours (sound judgmental?)  

Her sister and cousins are going back to TN.  


FF

[formflier]

I'm in the dark about the past connections with CPS/police/lawyers.  Is there a link to those posts? 

Two summers ago.  Long story.  Turned into sort of a therapeutic separation and really turned our family towards a good place.

I stood between my wife and kids as she tried to administer a whipping for the ages, then turned it into CPS since she pretty much said she did nothing wrong.  Those were interesting times, I learned a lot and did quite a bit of individual growth and change then.

I suspect I am coming up on another period of time like that.  Hopefully I can do it with sleep on my side.

FF

[formflier]

I sort of counseled myself on another newbies thread.  Please help me think about how this applies to my situation now.

Remember FF and his "energy management talks"

I said something to the effect of "Taking energy out of conflict is usually a good move" 

Although in this case I do need to keep energy behind good boundaries.

FF

[Verbena]

I'm in the dark about the past connections with CPS/police/lawyers.  Is there a link to those posts? 

Two summers ago.  Long story.  Turned into sort of a therapeutic separation and really turned our family towards a good place.

I stood between my wife and kids as she tried to administer a whipping for the ages, then turned it into CPS since she pretty much said she did nothing wrong.  Those were interesting times... .I learned a lot and did quite a bit of individual growth and change then.

I suspect I am coming up on another period of time like that.  Hopefully I can do it with sleep on my side.

FF

Okay, I didn't know any of that. What an awful experience.  Do you feel the emotional abuse, with the kids being used as weapons, warrants you taking any action?  Maybe the lawyer can help you with that. 

[chump]

I said something to the effect of "Taking energy out of conflict is usually a good move" 

That's a much simpler way of saying what my long post was attempting to get at. I don't know a lot about martial arts, but I've heard some of them (judo maybe?) are based on the principle of using your opponent's energy against themselves. Or I might say "allowing" them to feel the consequences of their aggression.

Chump

[KateCat]

Now you're talking! You won't be blindsided since you've talked to an attorney. Sounds like good energy management to me, and a great way to keep your dignity. Way better than that lawyer-letter idea.  

You can do this. You did it before.

[formflier]

 

I should be in an office for an L in a day or two.  My referral request is in.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Sounds like you have some good advice already.

Since it is a new place for you and you don't have a job yet, I don't expect you to have potential friends or advocates locally ... .Except your parents.

I'm wondering if it is time to take them more into confidence now?

They are very involved (with your dad owning the house, he will be involved if a legal pissing match starts) already.

I obviously don't know them, how they will react, or anything about their personal experience and beliefs around mental illness, but I'd suggest you stick with the minimum you need to tell them... .

1. You love your wife and kids and do not wish to break up the family.

2. Your wife has been going through phases where she behaves very badly toward you, and what your dad already saw was nothing compared to other things. And she gets past them and becomes the loving wife you married again. (Consider some examples, possibly mentioning divorce threats that haven't been followed with action, or situations involving taking the kids from you or parental alienation)

3. You want their support.

4. The support you want is NOT against your wife per se, and please try to avoid any direct involvement in conflicts should they happen. And to be discreet as far as who they share any of this with.

5. Warn them of any sort of situations where your wife might try to manipulate them against you. (Don't know if this is likely)

Or perhaps work out a different version based on knowing your parents. You will note that I didn't name any specific mental illness, of even speak much toward it.

[Grey Kitty]

Sometimes saying something out loud has an impact.

When I realized if typed the words parental alienation, the significance of that hit me. It is an ugly situation. Most often seen during and after a breakup. And your wife is doing it to you a LOT.

You've found a couple things you were unwilling to back down over already.

One is your sleep.

One was the "discipline" of your child that qualified as child abuse.

Parental alienation should perhaps be your next one. Her criticism of you in front of the kids especially trying to get them to agree that you are worthless/etc. strikes me as almost that bad.

Consider if you wish to make a stand on this issue. (If so, I'd recommend a new topic on that before you change your way of dealing with it)

[formflier]

 

GreyKitty,  (and everyone)

As I sit her enjoying my morning coffee, alone in this house (ok enjoying the company of the little 5lb dog) I want you all to know how much I appreciate the support.  It's relatively easy to see what others need to do, when I'm "in it" it tends to be much harder.

You guys are my LSOs (landing signal officers) trying to talk me down out of a dark and stormy night onto a pitching deck.  I'd say right now I've got one of my two engines out as well.

https://youtu.be/mV1XDihwJ1s

Ok, back to Grey's post.

Yes, I have had one big conversation with my parents.  No labels, no details.  Mostly focused on what my Dad saw.

Dad is solid man.  The standard I hope to live up to some day.  Mom doesn't handle high stress all that well, needs more time to process.  So she is good in conversation and can do what is needed with a plan, but sometimes with shocking things she would not be good "in the moment"  There was a reason I called "just my Dad".  My Mom answered demanding to know what was wrong.  (I don't call them at that hour)  I repeated a few times, "I need to talk to Dad".  

Me:  ":)ad, ff wife is not letting me sleep, it's a bit of a bad scene.  I need your help."  

Dad:  "I'll be right there"

I can't guarantee that is exactly word for word, but you guys get the gist.  I think it is highly likely that they will be a healthy addition to the triangle.  My Dad will be supportive but will not tell me what to do.  He explains his positions and then makes it clear I am expected to make my own choices.  Usually I figure out after time has passed that I would have been better off taking more of his advice.  He never rubs it in.

Every once in a while I am right, bigtime.  I don't rub it in either, but he will acknowledge in some way.  For instance, he and his brother were at odds over future of farm (when it was joint).  Brother wanted to buy a bunch more property and the price was stupid low per acre when farm economy was down.  I was probably in my 20s.    Anyway, I sat there saying ":)ad, take out whatever loan you need, I'll take an extra job, whatever but if farm land is selling for (fill in blank) you buy"  He was stuck in conflict with his brother and passed on deal.  Numbers aren't exact but it was something in the order of $500 to $1000 per acre.  

After my uncles death, the cousins sold the extra land for around $8600 per acre.  Lots of acres involved.

My dad looked at me, winked and sort of grumped "Well, I guess that worked out pretty good for them"  Me, (yeah, but it's just money, )

So, yes, many more talks with my parents.

More to come.

FF

[formflier]

Sometimes saying something out loud has an impact.

When I realized if typed the words parental alienation, the significance of that hit me. It is an ugly situation. Most often seen during and after a breakup. And your wife is doing it to you a LOT.

Labeling things:  I am out in the open about labeling emotional abuse or abusive texts as abusive and unwanted.  My wife claims it is evidence for the counselor so she can show them "what I am like".  That should be interestings.

for instance "Stop sending me abusive texts" (or things like that) I have texted to her lately.

I've also called waking a person up abuse.  I was firm and hopefully not to dramatic in doing it.  I think I said something about exploiting a disabled persons weakness.  

I have not used the worlds "parental alienation"  I have stated on several occasions that dragging kids in is "emotionally unhealthy".

Likely things will be calm until she "gets me" in the counseling room.  I'll certainly want to have further discussions here for that happens, but I suspect that my tactic will be to calmly label the behavior that is going on and invite a discussion about use of healthy boundaries to deal with it.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not particularly concerned as to whether you use the label parental alienation with her or not. That is a tactical question, and we aren't there yet. Since you've tried using the label abusive already, you can see how that one works before thinking about others.

I raised it because I think the label fits well enough that using it helps move our discussion forward here.

And the bigger more strategic question is do you want to make stopping this behavior a top priority or not. I'm presenting it to you as an option. It is up to you to decide which hill you are ready to die on.

[formflier]

 

abusive label:  So far I'm not sure what to think of the use of the label. 

Wife claimed it "gave her evidence" (shows how she looks at counseling) and FIL seems to just ignore it and press on.

Probably used the label 6-7 times.  I think all in past couple weeks.  Couple in texts and 4 or so "in person".

Any thoughts on how I evaluate "the tactic" and "the result"

FF