Something her dad said to me

[formflier]

So, one thing that the FIL (wife's dad) said when he came over on Friday night for all the drama.

Not sure if it was a piece of advice for me or just part of a rant.

It was during one of his calmer moments.

"I've been dealing with this stuff all my life.  I figured out a way to live with it and you are going to have to as well"

Not going to try to say that is exact quote, but it's 90%.

Same for my response, probably not exact.  But you get the idea.  Totally an unplanned response but I think it is telling about where my mind is.

I said "No, I will no live with this.  This is not healthy and I will not be involved with it."

Again, probably 90% close to what was really said.

So, the point of this thread, which I will add to here in a little bit as I try to sort out an approach to the current mess, is to try and figure out "big picture" where my head is.  

I get it that even during our long good stretch that little issues popped up and I can be fine with that.  Use tools and move along.

I'm also certain that "I'm not going back" to the regular silliness that used to go on in my home.

My heart is a stayer, but I'm a realist when it comes to the health/sleep issue.

Anyone that knows my story have an opinion on how long they would let things play out and chalk it up to "moving stress" and change of environment?

I totally get it that can be stressful stuff and we do have a lot going on.  

FF is thinking, trying to not be reactive.

I'm open to reactions to what her Dad said or any of my other musings.

FF

[KateCat]

Oh, to me that sounds encouraging. Your FIL may very well not be your "enemy."

If he's of my generation, then he may just be going along with / defending the "old ways" of dealing with family strife.

I don't have any helpful thoughts on how you should respond to your wife's current behavior, but if I were in your shoes at this time I hope I would state my boundaries right now and make them permanent in my mind. You have already endured plenty, and getting off on the right foot in this new location, and with its new cast of characters, sounds like an important move to me.

[Cat Familiar]

The "blood is thicker than water" saying comes to mind. Who knows what you wife has been telling her parents? I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I wonder, had your FIL been  drinking when he took his boxer stance?

[formflier]

The "blood is thicker than water" saying comes to mind. Who knows what you wife has been telling her parents? I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I wonder, had your FIL been  drinking when he took his boxer stance?

He is drinking again.  10-15 years ago he really got into.  Got a DUI, dropped it for a while and appears to be back at it.

My guess is he only drinks as a way to piss off his wife who is a big "moralist".

The comment either had to do with that he learned how to deal with the noise and craziness, or just noise, or just craziness.

I think it may have been noise as I was complaining about tv noise.

My understanding is that his wife cranks the TV to sleep. 

You know, someone else mentioned that the noise thing could be linked or medial or family.  The sister (couple years older) watches way more TV and usually sleeps on couch in all kinds of weird positions.  In general turning of the TV at their houses is weird.

Up until a few years ago we rarely watched TV.  On the farm, you really didn't have time (anyone tell I miss that).  It would be a special time for us to get together, pop in a DVD and watch something and eat popcorn together.  None of this having to ask to turn the TV off thing.

I really can't put my finger on it, but used to people asked in my house if they could watch TV and then at some point it turned into me asking if we could turn it off.   

Anyway, maybe somebody could make heads or tails of this.

FF

[Notwendy]

FIL being an alcoholic speaks volumes about your wife's FOO. Alcoholic families are full of drama, dysfunction, and enablers. He doesn't drink to piss of his wife. Drinking is what he does, regardless of anyone else.

And being drunk could explain how crazy he was when he came over. I wouldn't try to make much about what anyone says when they are drunk. It might not mean anything to him, and he might not even remember saying it.

I wouldn't put too much energy into making sense out of crazy or drunk. One can't make heads or tails out of someone  when they are drunk.

But having your wife's FOO around could be triggering to her too, especially if there is some enmeshment. I'm not excusing her cruel behavior to you, but there could be some emotional stuff with them.

[Cat Familiar]

My BPD mother used to sleep with talk radio on. Somehow it was soothing to her. I think this was her habit throughout my childhood. I was used to sleeping with noise in the background then, but as an adult when I visited her, it was disturbing.

My husband will have the TV on, music in the background and be working on the computer. I cannot handle multiple sources of noise and visual distraction. In fact, I can't even talk when the TV is on, nor can I listen to him. It's one thing at a time for me.

Perhaps this noise thing is related to BPD.

[formflier]

FIL being an alcoholic speaks volumes about your wife's FOO.

99% positive he wasn't drunk.

I was alcohol counselor for a while in the Navy, I've got a pretty good nose for it.  And I would be shocked if he was an alcoholic, although 100% sure he had an abusive r/s with alcohol for a while.

I've observed him drinking around his wife and it is not enough to do much for him.  My guess is that he barely felt a buzz, but the wife's behavior weird with her nose up in the air, sighing and all kinds of weird stuff to show disapproval.

Her FOO is not very direct about anything, until they dysregulate.  Then all kinds of weird stuff pops out.

FF

[Jessica84]

What FIL said was meaningless. He is minimizing the importance of sleep to you. He may have said it hoping you can find a way to suck it up so the drama will stop.

Notwendy brought up something else. Do you think having her family (or yours) closeby again could be triggering her? Lord knows my family makes me batty! If all of a sudden, they were all in driving distance I'd be feeling some stress!

[waverider]

He may not have been drunk, but drinking teaches people to react this way, so it could be his entrenched way of playing out frustration.

Consider if he has never been able to "fix" the problems other than blocking them with drink, he may find it invalidating that you think you can deal with it any better than he could... ie ":)ont think you are any better than me... "etc

As far moving having an effect, it probably causes you to want to start again, as in not willing to bring the same emotional baggage with you, hence more desperate to firm up on your boundaries. I went through this early on, and I lost because I knew nothing about it being BPD nor how to address it, so it was futile, but I remember being extra sick because the issues just followed and spoiled the new hope.

[babyducks]

Where you and I hear quiet and serenity, pwBPD hear emptiness and void.    My partner listens to either talk radio or the news around the clock.   The louder the better.  It's comfortable for her.  That way the outside world matches her inner world of racing thoughts and loud ideas.

[Notwendy]

I've spent a lot of time in ACOA groups which focus on the dysfunctional family patterns and they are very similar to households where a member has BPD and it seems that there are frequently both in a family.

So, it isn't just the alcohol but the dynamics in them.

These family roles are very ingrained and it is hard to break the pattern, particularly as a child of the parents in them. No matter how old the child, or if the child has changed, it is the parents who set the pattern- before that child is born, and perpetuate it.

I observed this when I visited my parents. Even if I had changed, they continued the pattern that worked for them, even if it was dysfunctional. This is how they related to me. It takes a long time and consistency to change that pattern, and like any relationship, the change is with us. But then, the effort also can result in extinction bursts and other difficulties. The effort is worth it in the long run if it is a day to day relationship, but for short visits, at intervals, there are pros and cons. So, the tendency in all of us, is to revert back to our family roles when we are with our FOO, unless we make efforts to change.

It's pretty obvious that visiting my parents, and now my mother, stresses me out. Less than before, but still because while I have changed, I have not been around her on a daily basis and she relates to me in the same way she always has. Being aware of this, I take steps to self care so that I am not as irritable when I return to my family. My H is not as interested in learning about these kinds of patterns so he doesn't think much about this when he visits his FOO. But I have observed him taking his family position when he visits, and they wear him out- which can lead to issues between us after he visits.

We know that there are times when we are not at our best- like being tired, angry, and stressed. The presence of FOO can be a stressor. This isn't to excuse abusive behavior, or mean we shouldn't see our families (unless we choose) but to be aware of the influence they may have.

[sweetheart]

Where you and I hear quiet and serenity, pwBPD hear emptiness and void.    My partner listens to either talk radio or the news around the clock.   The louder the better.  It's comfortable for her.  That way the outside world matches her inner world of racing thoughts and loud ideas.

My partner shares this trait. He cannot cope emotionally with quiet. If stress levels are increasing, mental health destabilising, dysregulation imminent, all noise and activity increases. On the occasions that I have stayed overnight at my mums and he has been not so stable, are times of some particularly bad dysregulations. TV always on CNN or Russia Today 

Then is also using laptop and tablet  simultaneously. And on and on. Like I said before he does use headphones now, but not if dysregulated.

I imagine her dad finds the use of boundaries quite scary, and might believe you are being too harsh with his daughter. Usually in a dysfunctional family, like my own, boundaries don't really get much of a look in. Or the boundaries that there are are made of FOG.

[formflier]

  Or the boundaries that there are are made of FOG.

So, there is some contempt and judgment as I write this, but from everything I can observe the boundaries in their family revolve around "don't piss off the queen" (my MIL).  Yet, as we know what it takes to not honk her off is a constantly shifting thing.

Then, from time to time as things shift around the drama triangle people will take "pokes" at the queen (rarely outright defiance), eventually the queen gets tired of getting poked and does something outlandish/harsh to get people back in line.  Then whoever gets brought back in line goes into full victim mode, very publicly and sometimes there will be a passive aggressive act of defiance (if I understand PA correctly, still struggling there) or every once in a while actually flip the queen the bird and direct disobedience.

Direct disobedience results in the queen "being gracious" and understanding in a very public way to those that "are not up to her standards" and she will "forgive" their transgressions. 

For the PA acts of defiance the queen goes into victim mode as she is crushed by the actions of those that have failed her.

Example of a PA act of defiance:  Her only son, the twin of my wife, took out over $50k in debt and took many years going through college.  Actually walked the graduation line but didn't get a diploma because he lacked two credit hours, TWO.  He promised to take the class in some sort of "minimester" right after graduation but didn't do it.  And has never done it.

Apparently if he did it within 10 years he would have gotten the degree.  At about the 9 year point there was a huge press as the queen rallied the family to pressure him into getting his degree.  He didn't budge.

Two credit hours.  That is par for the course.  My wife is the first college graduate of all the cousins, aunts and uncles.  My MIL did go back and get her degree after my wife did and did some adult education for a while. 

I describe the family dynamic as having the amazing ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The family is littered with stories very similar to the two credit hour thing.

Sigh,

FF

[sweetheart]

 

ff you might keep that Two Hours Credit thing in the back of your mind at all times. Just crazy making dynamics that I'm sure loads of us can relate to with our SO's family. I know I can. Made me smile lots though.

[formflier]

ff you might keep that Two Hours Credit thing in the back of your mind at all times. Just crazy making dynamics that I'm sure loads of us can relate to with our SO's family. I know I can. Made me smile lots though.

Yeah, makes me shake my head, smile, kinda go, whatever.

And you know, I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't keep me awake or otherwise violate my boundaries. 

But, yeah, two hours.  It's painful to think about.

And, lots comes back to kids.  And I suppose that will really be where my next "big" decision lies. 

The idea that I am such a son of a b$tch that I don't deserve to sleep (disabled or not) is so preposterous and so easy to "shine the light on" that it will quickly collapse. 

I don't need to attack, persecute or any of that.  Just shine the light and label it.

In a different thread GK talked about parental alienation and I will put "example" next to that as well.  Kids will usually emulate what they saw growing up. 

Consider the following value:  I understand that I will likely never have a perfect marriage and that with my wife being an INFP and me being an ESTJ we will likely always be at odds about emotions versus facts.  She is welcome to whatever feelings she has and I may "think" about whatever I like. 

Value: I will live in an emotionally healthy household (as generally determined by family therapists, respected periodicals, etc etc) or I will separate and create a separate household that operates in an emotionally healthy way. 

I realize that with unusual stresses that there may be blips.  A weird night, perhaps even a weird weekend.   A passing storm that blows through.  I won't give her this number, but lets say 90% of my life will be "emotionally health" with the rest being blips that I use tools for.  I'm not going back to the crazy train.

FF

[sweetheart]

ff you might keep that Two Hours Credit thing in the back of your mind at all times. Just crazy making dynamics that I'm sure loads of us can relate to with our SO's family. I know I can. Made me smile lots though.

Value: I will live in an emotionally healthy household (as generally determined by family therapists, respected periodicals, etc etc) or I will separate and create a separate household that operates in an emotionally healthy way. 

I realize that with unusual stresses that there may be blips.  A weird night, perhaps even a weird weekend.   A passing storm that blows through.  I won't give her this number, but lets say 90% of my life will be "emotionally health" with the rest being blips that I use tools for.  I'm not going back to the crazy train.

FF

I can really relate and understand not going back to that way of living. I wouldn't stay either if for me there was any suggestion that my h started to become dysregulated as he was before.

I went to see a L, I know what I will do in order to leave. He gave me fantastic advice that took a lot of the fear away. I have put contingencies in place over the last year so that I know me and our son will be ok.

However I am still wrong footed by a dysregulation, almost like the calm times stupifies me, so I'm still almost only able to make knee jerk extreme all or nothing responses. Despite all I have learnt here.

So I have to live differently in the calm times too, knowing that dysregulation will come. That Staying makes that a fact of my life, but not in the way that brought me here.

[formflier]

So I have to live differently in the calm times too, knowing that dysregulation will come. That Staying makes that a fact of my life, but not in the way that brought me here.

Yep, I know it won't be perfect.  I feel very comfortable now discussing "emotionally healthy" ways of doing things.  So, during the "normal" times I look to give myselfs "workouts" and education to build up those muscles (so to speak) so that when a blip shows up, I (and hopefully we) are prepared.

Especially with all the FOO around, I'm going to have to be strong yet also need to be careful to not take it overboard.  If something presents itself I will act and speak up, but I won't go looking for trouble.  I'm not the type to avoid trouble either.

It's going to be interesting to see how the SIL's involvement and FIL will play out.   During the  sleep deprivation episodes I addressed each of them, by name and asked if they were ok with their actions and decisions and that it was not acceptable for them to participate in depriving me of sleep.

SIL said "I'm not getting in the middle of this and continued to watch the TV".  FIL blathered on about that I needed to let people "live".

I'm not going to ignore this and pretend it never happened, I'm also not going to chase them around looking for apology.  Note:  I'm not aware that SIL has ever said she is sorry to anyone.      FIL usually says sorry while trying to blow something off as no big deal.

A multi-weekend effort by a family to not let me sleep is a big deal to me.

FF

[waverider]

  I'm not going back to the crazy train.

FF

There are many trains coming down the tracks, when the crazy train approaches the station sit back and wait for the next one. Dont try to flag it down, it only parks itself in your station.

FOOs trains are running on a different track, just dont go to that platform they are not going your way.

Especially with all the FOO around, I'm going to have to be strong yet also need to be careful to not take it overboard.  If something presents itself I will act and speak up, but I won't go looking for trouble.  I'm not the type to avoid trouble either.

It's going to be interesting to see how the SIL's involvement and FIL will play out.   During the  sleep deprivation episodes I addressed each of them, by name and asked if they were ok with their actions and decisions and that it was not acceptable for them to participate in depriving me of sleep.

Be careful you dont create a Cold War type environment whereby defensive walls and boundaries have a duel purpose of defense and intimidation. "I wont fire first" but telegraphing your response if you are threatened. This feeds passive aggression that is part of any rebellion with all the hidden resentment that festers with it

[formflier]

 

WR,

Interesting point.  So, how do you see that playing out if they magically pop up one day like everything is normal.

What is the "healthy" response?

The dad is an ok guy, I don't mind talking to him.  Most that comes out of his mouth is bluster that he never acts on.  He is "thinking" about doing lots of things, rarely does much.

SIL, is toxic woman.  Was worse than my wife.  I would actually be happy if this drives a wedge between us.  Always felt like I was pretending before.

FF

[waverider]

SIL, is toxic woman.  Was worse than my wife.  I would actually be happy if this drives a wedge between us.  Always felt like I was pretending before.

Let it. If you are cool with that. She's not one of your monkeys to tame.

I often visualize it as someone just farted in the room, open the window and let it blow away, no point calling people to account, you are not going to change their personality, its hard enough handling your wife's behavior let alone someone you have even less influence over.

The less energy you spend on it, the less it disturbs you."

My wifes FOOs is a hotbed of triangulation and finger pointing with a veneer of 'appropriate behavior" laid over the top, so no one openly says anything nasty. But its the same thoughts and same actions. Covering it up with "respectful' behavior doesn't change anything, its probably even worse as you always suspect people of not being genuine.

[Fian]

Are you going to address the family conference that happened when she was mad?  Personally, I think you need to sit the kids down and say something like the following:

You believe that if mom and dad have a problem, then it is something that should be kept between mom and dad.  You won't personally be involving them with any disputes that you have with mom nor tell them that mom is a bad person.  If mom does that you, they do not have to choose sides.  If they want, they can talk to you about anything that she says that you have done.

My fear is that if you do nothing, she will manipulate the kids against you - at least some of them, especially the younger ones.

[formflier]

 

Fian,

Likely this is going on at the moment.

Need to change the dynamic, somehow, very quickly.

Basically the iron fist of control over kids has come down.  Monday I got a text saying her parents would pick them up at bus stop.  I texted back that I would like to discuss arrangements ahead of time and was open to compromise.  No response.  I didn't want to add energy and create conflict by having a standoff at the bus stop with grandparents ordering kids into their van and me offering kids to come home.

Tuesday (yesterday).  No communication about kids.  I didn't reach out to her.  I was interested in seeing if there was supposed to be a new "default".  Apparently so.  With no communication the kids did not walk home from bus stop but went to their grandparents house (her parents a few blocks away).  I did not witness the bus stop, so no idea if they walked or were picked up.

They get brought home about 830 845.  Bundled through the door up the stairs for teeth brushing and getting shoved in bed.  Last night she apparently slept in bed with smaller ones.  Everyone is still asleep with 2 hour delay.

The child S15 that got called in to "testify" against me treats me like I have the plague for the few minutes I have been around him. 

So, what do I do today?

Do tell or ask my wife kids need to come home today after school?  Do I just go to bus stop and get kids (risking confrontation with FIL)

I should be hearing back from L office today about when I can stop in for first consultation.

Sigh,

FF

[sweetheart]

ff do you have MC set up here? My sense is that at the moment it might help things not escalate if you have a neutral objective professional overseeing these issues.

[formflier]

We have both submitted our forms to the MC place and are waiting for an appointment. 

This morning she was full of contempt and said she would not speak to me until we had MC.  Until the she will be doing what she wants and I should do what I need to take care of myself, until she can get me the help I need.

That my controlling attitude has brought us to this point. 

I will try to get an idea of how long this will be from MC.  I am not willing to wait long before establishing some sort of order.

It is obvious that twisted thinking is in full bloom. 

I know I have the tools to work through this, I don't know if working through this is right thing, or best thing.

Sigh. 

FF

[formflier]

So, the "only" place that she will go says that it will be several weeks before they can get us in.

I asked if they offer a neutral third party in the room so life can be coordinated between now and then, unfortunately the answer is no.

FF

[sweetheart]

ff you absolutely you do have the tools. Remember this situation is fraught with additional stressors, red flags, you name it for all concerned.

Your sleep is still your number 1 priority so ensuring that is maintained may trump the domestic situation in the shrt term.

I remember when we moved, my h was soo brittle and given to dysregulation that I just eased back on many things once I realised he could not cope. It took quite a while to find a rhythm again, but we got there eventually.

Can you let the stuff go with the kids for a while, at least until you're in MC? Sounds like her need to feel some control at the moment will be extending to them if you view them as extensions of her, rather than separate from her. I would view her need to control as symptomatic of how difficult she is finding things.

There is a huge positive in her comment about MC that she has this in her sights as a place of eventual conflict resolution. I understand that this probably means different things to both of you.

So to me for now it's about finding a balance about what can you reasonably leave for the next few weeks and where you need to invest your energies most effectively.

[formflier]

 

Sweetheart,

Very wise counsel.

Waiting sucks, it's hard.  Do I step aside and her run the kids and badmouth me for several weeks? Of course it could be over tomorrow.

One reason I am thinking of acting (on what, I don't know).  She usually has responded well to me acting from a position of strength, rather than being a doormat. 

However, most of that is personal boundary stuff instead of control of kids or things like that.

I probably shouldn't let my mind wander too much until I speak with L and figure out what are actual options.

She flips from being nasty to me to being "singsongy" happy with kids.  Is in other room now asking kids if they would think it wonderful to spend the weekend making their own pasta and grinding their own flour.  Never, ever done that before.

FF

[flourdust]

Waiting sucks, it's hard.  Do I step aside and her run the kids and badmouth me for several weeks? Of course it could be over tomorrow.

Yes, waiting is hard. It does suck.

Do you "let her" run the kids and badmouth me? No, the question to ask is can you "stop her"? And if you can, is the cost of doing that more than surviving a few weeks in the current situation?

[sweetheart]

ff it might help you a bit if you think about it like this... .

She is psychologically defending herself against all the current difficulties and stresses by as you know splitting you bad/black. The children/her FOO all good/white. She cannot do it any other way at the moment. The split is her way of externalising her feelings and keeping herself safe  whilst she learns to navigate this new part of her life.

You can help her with this by validating how difficult things are at the moment when she bad mouths you. Think about everything she says and does with you at the moment as a way of letting you know how hard this adjustment is for her. The reason you are the one who is split black is because she knows that you are strong enough to manage to hold this for her without falling to pieces.

So for you it will be about keeping and maintaining the status quo whilst you are waiting. And waiting will be important here, because if IMO if you rush this it will go nuclear v quickly all the warning sins are in allignment.

I remember when my h got like this, I made it worse for him by rushing it, so he couldn't get back to his emotional baseline. A friend of mine who is a dog behaviourist, said this is called 'trigger stacking' and when this happens to an animal the only inevitable response is all out attack. My h's response to being triggered stacked was catastrophic. So be cautious because I can hear how important your marriage and family is to you.

It is about playing the long game whilst using all the tools at your disposal to maintain the peace and calm.

See your L, you have MC planned, let the kids schedule go in the short term, create a validating environment and post here if you feeling triggered into reacting.

Who can you talk to for support at the moment, do you have a pastor, your own T ( if not may I strongly suggest this be something you consider )

[empath]

With all the weirdness,  I would recommend that you make sure that you are authorized to pick up the kids. You don't want to be in a situation where she is the only one who controls that, for the kids' sake.  Also with the history of inappropriate physical discipline,  you might consider a safety plan that includes the kids. The older ones should know that boundary violations are not okay,  especially ones that involve basic needs.