Communication

[unicorn2014]

Communication help

If my relationship makes it out of the waiting period it's going to have  a backlog of issues to deal with.

The most pressing one is around communication because I am burnt out.

We have a long standing issue in our relationship where my partner doesn't feel valued by me except for his contribution to my daughter, no matter what I tell him.

We had a similar issue years ago where he felt devalued by me despite what my therapist said. He would not see that even though he felt devalued didn't mean I was actually devaluing him.

I don't know if I have what it takes to be the partner of someone with an untreated personality disorder again.

My partner will not listen to me that his issues are getting in the way of him hearing me.

I wonder if it is worth the effort.

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't know if I have what it takes to be the partner of someone with an untreated personality disorder again.

My partner will not listen to me that his issues are getting in the way of him hearing me.

It is certainly valid to feel burnt out from trying to get someone to hear and believe you, when they simply cannot.  Certainly good communication is a great way to bond and feel connected to another and it is frustrating, feels distancing when communication is problematic.

Can you clarify what you are wanting out of this thread?

Part of me wonders if you are mulling around thoughts of analyzing what direction to take the relationship.

Another part of me wonders if you are seeking help learning/practicing communication skills.

In any event, it sounds like you are considering your needs and trying to see if they are being satisfied in this relationship... .and how that matches up.

How can we help?

[unicorn2014]

Part of me wonders if you are mulling around thoughts of analyzing what direction to take the relationship.

Another part of me wonders if you are seeking help learning/practicing communication skills.

It is both.

I had asked my partner to write an email expressing his concerns that I could take to my therapist.

He wrote two sentences and they were about an old issue, an issue I had already covered in therapy years ago.

Basically he thinks his feelings are facts, whether that's he feels devalued by me, or he doesn't feel married to his wife or he thinks I only value him for his contribution to my daughter.

It doesn't matter what I tell him.

I have run out of patience.

I don't feel like being kind, compassionate, understanding.

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't feel like being kind, compassionate, understanding.

I have read a bit around here.  It seems the typical advice when feeling like being kind to your SO feels difficult then: Take a step back for your own self care.

I recall you trying to take some space from your partner and at one point you were starting to miss him and felt that the space was working.  Do you think you can take some more space than you have currently?

This can help you to think more clearly and focus on your thoughts and thinking that you need to mull over such ideas as whether or not this relationship is right for you.

While I was attending MC, the MC gave us advice that really relieved me.  He told us that we did not need to decide today if we were going to continue the relationship or go separate ways.  He actually said that the answer would reveal itself naturally in the coming year or sooner. Hearing from MC that I did not have to decide in any specific direction, for even a year, and even then did not really have to decide but 'it would be clear'... .really was a huge huge relief to me.

While I do not suspect that you two are receiving MC, it may be possible the same is true for your circumstance.  I think it is possible that if you continue your own T or your own personal growth and take space as you need for self reflection independent of him... .that the answer will become more clear to you.

What gets tricky though is if you continue to engage to a point of wearing yourself out and becoming frustrated.  ... .If you have a lot of frustration, then it is hard to think and feel clearly and hard to separate the feelings of frustration from your partner. 

Are you finding it difficult to balance engaging with your SO vs taking enough space?

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower wrote

While I do not suspect that you two are receiving MC, it may be possible the same is true for your circumstance. I think it is possible that if you continue your own T or your own personal growth and take space as you need for self reflection independent of him... .that the answer will become more clear to you

I had my first session with my new T today.

I'm on p.56 of keeping the love you find.

Sunflower wrote

Are you finding it difficult to balance engaging with your SO vs taking enough space

yes, until today. This morning when my partner called I was actually able to tell him I didn't feel like talking and he said ok. Later he said he wished he had known that earlier as he didn't take some calls because he was expecting to hear from me. I had told him I would call him at 9:30 but that's before I read his email. I told him next time he should just take those calls.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hopefully things went well with the new T?  Did you get a good feel that this is someone you think you can work with?

yes, until today. This morning when my partner called I was actually able to tell him I didn't feel like talking and he said ok. Later he said he wished he had known that earlier as he didn't take some calls because he was expecting to hear from me. I had told him I would call him at 9:30 but that's before I read his email. I told him next time he should just take those calls.

That sounds perfect.  It sounds like he tried to lay some "O" "G" on you but you didn't pick it up.  Instead you redirected him to his responsibility. (Where it belongs) Do you feel ok with this?  Do you usually do this or do you think more of this would be helpful?

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower wrote

That sounds perfect. It sounds like he tried to lay some "O" "G" on you but you didn't pick it up. Instead you redirected him to his responsibility. (Where it belongs) Do you feel ok with this? Do you usually do this or do you think more of this would be helpful?

Absolutely.

That was the first time I did that so obviously more of that would be helpful!

Ty for pointing out the o and the g to me. That was very helpful and useful. I knew what that meant . I think it would probably be good for me to review the article on emotional manipulation. I learned in DBT today that another person can cause an interpersonal crisis to avoid dealing with their feelings so I want to make sure my partner doesn't pull me into that.

[unicorn2014]

Oops missed this part

Hopefully things went well with the new T? Did you get a good feel that this is someone you think you can work with?

Yes they did. She's one of the DBT facilitators and she did my intake interview so I've already been working with her on a group level for 2 months.

I think she can help me develop the kindness towards my partner I'm going to need if I want to continue on in a relationship with him.

[LonelyChild]

I don't know if I have what it takes to be the partner of someone with an untreated personality disorder again.

My partner will not listen to me that his issues are getting in the way of him hearing me.

I wonder if it is worth the effort.

Hi unicorn2014 - haven't talked to you for long. Is this the same guy - lying about divorce, etc?

Regarding the above:

It's not so much that you have to have what it takes, that you have to be able to give continuously and never get anything in return. You don't even have to give much, you just have to understand that you will never, ever, _ever_ be able to demand he give anything back to you - just like a mother cannot demand anything from her infant (remember the infant metaphores we used?).

This is by no means an attack on you as I empathize very much with your situation, but just give it a thought for a couple of seconds:

"My 6 month old infant will not listen to me that his issues are getting in the way of him hearing me."

It makes no sense, and people would rather wonder what kind of a mother says something like that. The situation is very much the same her, except that the infant has an adult's body. As a mother, you don't reason with your infant - you correct bad behavior and you teach good behavior by being bigger than his bad behavior and sticking to what you know is right, accepting that he will learn it from you. This also ties into why one uses the term "reparenting" when talking about correcting PDs - it's in essence what needs to be done. As long as you are his mother - his therapist - you cannot be his lover in any healthy way. He needs a "therapeutic room" - a room (home, garden, whatever) of trust, very little demands, just the right amount of his therapist carrying his projections and emotions for him, etc. Is this something you are ready to do?

Is it worth the effort? Keep in mind that, after a few years of reparenting - in the absolutely exceptional case that he turns into a healthy man - he might not even be into you anymore, and you might not even be into him. He's not going to be the same person after that. And neither will you - you might very well end up being suicidal during the journey. Even therapists with decades of experience have enormous trouble handling pwBPD.

This is with your best in mind: I think you should shift focus to yourself. You seem to be a very loving, caring and giving person. Is there a reason you're trying to give everything to someone who lies to you? Imagine you two in a movie that you're watching - playing out everything that's happened between you two. A good-looking, caring, loving woman with a man who lies to her, rages, etc. What would you feel? Would you say 'wow, I hope she sticks with him and loves him a bit more, he might turn into a great guy' or would you say ' eh, that woman is crazy, why is she putting up with this when the world is full of good men'? Again, not meaning to attack you, just trying to challenge your way of thinking about this!

Be well!

[patientandclear]

The best advice I ever received here about building a r/ship with someone wBPD was don't tell him you love him--show him. Act like it.

I would say telling him you don't feel like talking after you made plans to talk and he re-arranges his schedule to do so--first, it's not acting loving. It's acting unpredictable and withholding and retaliatory ("I told him we'd talk but that was before I read his email".

Like Sunflower said, it seems to me you are actually unsure of your feelings for him. Understandable given the deception and lying. But I continue to have a hard time seeing much objectionable about his day to day dealings with you.

I didn't reply on your thread about boundaries because you'd quoted what I already wrote and I thought I'd let others comment next. But to go back to that topic: I think your inconsistency about boundaries is causing unnecessary discomfort and pain. You seem to shift daily what you're willing to do with him and what you're not depending on the smallest of perceived new transgressions. With pwBPD consistency is valuable; and others have written a lot about not managing your understandable resentment through withholding and punishment.

I recommend again that you try to answer the question "what kind of r/ship am I willing to have with a man who has deceived me about his marital status, is not yet divorced, and may not file for divorce?" I don't think you're clear on that yet. If you can answer that, then you can apply appropriate boundaries, be consistent, and I suspect stop being as bothered by the small daily blips, and also, stop hurting him by sudden zigs and zags in what you are willing to do.

[unicorn2014]

The best advice I ever received here about building a r/ship with someone wBPD was don't tell him you love him--show him. Act like it.

I would say telling him you don't feel like talking after you made plans to talk and he re-arranges his schedule to do so--first, it's not acting loving. It's acting unpredictable and withholding and retaliatory ("I told him we'd talk but that was before I read his email".

Like Sunflower said, it seems to me you are actually unsure of your feelings for him. Understandable given the deception and lying. But I continue to have a hard time seeing much objectionable about his day to day dealings with you.

I didn't reply on your thread about boundaries because you'd quoted what I already wrote and I thought I'd let others comment next. But to go back to that topic: I think your inconsistency about boundaries is causing unnecessary discomfort and pain. You seem to shift daily what you're willing to do with him and what you're not depending on the smallest of perceived new transgressions. With pwBPD consistency is valuable; and others have written a lot about not managing your understandable resentment through withholding and punishment.

I recommend again that you try to answer the question "what kind of r/ship am I willing to have with a man who has deceived me about his marital status, is not yet divorced, and may not file for divorce?" I don't think you're clear on that yet. If you can answer that, then you can apply appropriate boundaries, be consistent, and I suspect stop being as bothered by the small daily blips, and also, stop hurting him by sudden zigs and zags in what you are willing to do.

P&C I don't have the energy to being holding boundaries for my pwBPD. His words effect me. I don't have the patience to be the unemotional one in the relationship. I wasn't even thinking about the divorce problem yesterday. This is a pure BPD problem. He believes his feelings are facts and there is nothing I can do to change that. Not only that he believes he has the right to tell me his feelings are facts no matter how much it hurts me.

I let the issue go for now because I have to take care of my daughter, but you're right, holding boundaries with him is hard.

I've read your posts about the boundary between partner and non partner.

My partner is very much functioning as coparent.

In fact I told him yesterday that once he is divorced we can look at him being a guardian for my child prior to us getting married.

I need a functional coparent. My daughter has having way too many issues for me to be parenting on my own and her father is definitely not a functional coparent. My partner is. My partner also seems to have a personality disorder.

I will write more about this later and respond to lonely child later  as right now my daughter is sick and I need to take care of her.

[unicorn2014]

Lonely child,

Not getting anything from back from my SO is not my problem.

My SO is working aca with a sponsor and has had some therapy.

In terms of the divorce , he is working on it. That's not what I was upset about. Lying and raging aren't problems at this point.

I will post the two sentence email.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorns partner wrote

I feel at times like... .

The only reason we are in a relationship is because of D15.

That apart my contribution

to d15 you do not care for who I am as a person.

[unicorn2014]

I would say telling him you don't feel like talking after you made plans to talk and he re-arranges his schedule to do so--first, it's not acting loving. It's acting unpredictable and withholding and retaliatory ("I told him we'd talk but that was before I read his email".

I apologize for the piecemeal commentary.

I hear what you are saying so the question is how do I not get myself in that position in the first place.

We often seem to have problems around DBT, either before or after, so perhaps next week I can tell him I'll call him after DBT so we don't have that problem of him expecting a phone call from me. I think I may try that. That way I am not obligated to a morning phone call.

Like Sunflower said, it seems to me you are actually unsure of your feelings for him. Understandable given the deception and lying. But I continue to have a hard time seeing much objectionable about his day to day dealings with you.

I didn't see that in Sunfl0wer's post, so I'll have to reread it. Its not the deception and lying that bothered me about his email. I'll repost it here so we can address it.

I feel at times like... .

The only reason we are in a relationship is because of d15.

That apart my contribution

to d15 you do not care for who I am as a person.

That is absolutely not true, in fact the reason why I sought my partner out is because he is a creative person . I had no idea he would be so compatible with my d15 nor did I have any idea he would end up being my partner. I simply liked his music.

My partner told me the reason he was doing tele psychiatry was to work on his issue of mattering. The very thing that made me seek him out, his musical gifts, is the very thing he does not value in himself. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think that's his core wound.

Furthermore that email reminded me of a problem we had years ago before I knew his divorce hadn't been filed.

Years ago he was convinced I was devaluing him and this upset me so much that i talked to my therapist at the time about it. My therapist told me that my partner's feelings were true for him however that did not mean I was engaging in devaluing behavior.

Fast forward to yesterday's email, its the same problem all over again. Just because my partner feels I only value him for my contribution to my d15 doesn't mean that's true. I told my partner if I just wanted a stepfather for my child I could have picked any sober man who had experience raising daughters. I picked my partner because he is a good match for me. I had no idea he would be temperamentally compatible with my daughter. That was an added bonus.

I didn't reply on your thread about boundaries because you'd quoted what I already wrote and I thought I'd let others comment next. But to go back to that topic: I think your inconsistency about boundaries is causing unnecessary discomfort and pain. You seem to shift daily what you're willing to do with him and what you're not depending on the smallest of perceived new transgressions. With pwBPD consistency is valuable; and others have written a lot about not managing your understandable resentment through withholding and punishment.

Yes, but yesterday's resentment was not actually resentment, it was not wanting to go through the whole dog and pony show again about just because he feels something doesn't mean its a fact.

I recommend again that you try to answer the question "what kind of r/ship am I willing to have with a man who has deceived me about his marital status, is not yet divorced, and may not file for divorce?" I don't think you're clear on that yet. If you can answer that, then you can apply appropriate boundaries, be consistent, and I suspect stop being as bothered by the small daily blips, and also, stop hurting him by sudden zigs and zags in what you are willing to do.

I understand what you are saying, but that is not the problem here. As I mentioned before, we were having this problem before I found out his divorce wasn't filed. He was working on his divorce. He is getting bogged down in intellectual property right issues, that is the complication with his divorce. I don't have a problem with that. I'm not complaining about that.

How do you deal with a person who thinks their feelings are facts and isn't willing to hear otherwise?

[unicorn2014]

Part of me wonders if you are mulling around thoughts of analyzing what direction to take the relationship.

Another part of me wonders if you are seeking help learning/practicing communication skills.

In any event, it sounds like you are considering your needs and trying to see if they are being satisfied in this relationship... .and how that matches up.

How can we help?

I think this is the piece that patient and clear was referencing and if not perhaps she can redirect me.

I know what direction I am taking this relationship. I am waiting for my partner to divorce so we can resume a normal intimate relationship. In the meantime I am absolutely frustrated with this feelings equals facts thing, especially in my INTJ partner who prides himself on his reasonableness.

I think my therapist is going to help me develop more compassion towards my partner.

I understand that my partner's parents didn't support him as a musician other than to provide lessons and he had to make it on his own. I think that's his core wound.

I did explain this to my partner and he did seem to get it however I'm still angry about it.

I hate that my partner won't listen to me when I say you think your feelings are facts and they're not



I hate that argument.

I'm all about tough love, recently I saw an article about that from psych central and having to be gentle is very hard for me.

[Sunfl0wer]

I didn't see that in Sunfl0wer's post, so I'll have to reread it. Its not the deception and lying that bothered me about his email. I'll repost it here so we can address it.

While I did not intentionally allude to this... .

I do suspect that your emotional mind is in conflict with your logical mind and sparring inside of you regularly.  I suspect that your emotional mind remains driven by a primal attachment desire to your SO, while your logical mind questions the pragmatics of the relationship having sustaining potential for a successful future together.

My partner told me the reason he was doing tele psychiatry was to work on his issue of mattering. The very thing that made me seek him out, his musical gifts, is the very thing he does not value in himself. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think that's his core wound.

Years ago he was convinced I was devaluing him and this upset me so much that i talked to my therapist at the time about it. My therapist told me that my partner's feelings were true for him however that did not mean I was engaging in devaluing behavior.

Fast forward to yesterday's email, its the same problem all over again. Just because my partner feels I only value him for my contribution to my d15 doesn't mean that's true. I told my partner if I just wanted a stepfather for my child I could have picked any sober man who had experience raising daughters. I picked my partner because he is a good match for me. I had no idea he would be temperamentally compatible with my daughter. That was an added bonus.

I understand that my partner's parents didn't support him as a musician other than to provide lessons and he had to make it on his own. I think that's his core wound.

My sense is this is highly significant.  I suspect your partner's core wound IS likely to be that of 'mattering.'  If so, then it is understandable why he would project to you that you only value him for his contribution for D15.  This is HIS fear.  (Not necessarily YOUR truth).

I recall that you at some point, decided to rely on a parenting hotline vs SO as a boundary.  If 'mattering' is SO core wound AND his perceived value is co-parenting with you... . Then I imagine your withdrawal of allowing him to co-parent was distressing.  I also imagine your promise of him having guardianship may have been quite soothing.

Boundaries, delineate your position on your values... . ... .both to yourself and others.  It is my understanding that firm consistent boundaries are a necessary MUST when in a r/s with PD traits or a full PD.

I suspect that maintaing consistency on boundaries that are related to his core wound would be especially essential in establishing a sense of stability and longevity of this relationship.

How do you deal with a person who thinks their feelings are facts and isn't willing to hear otherwise?

I hate that my partner won't listen to me when I say you think your feelings are facts and they're not

Blunt respone: RA

You will likely do best to cope with your feelings about this independent of him. Aka: without your partner's awareness or support.

Edit: While my post has references to topics in the past, and also in the future... .  What I feel is not being given sufficient attention is: the present. 

[unicorn2014]

I do suspect that your emotional mind is in conflict with your logical mind and sparring inside of you regularly.  I suspect that your emotional mind remains driven by a primal attachment desire to your SO, while your logical mind questions the pragmatics of the relationship having sustaining potential for a successful future together.

I think you are right, however I am dealing with my own relationship issues: by reading the book keeping the love you find, then I'm going to read the passionate marriage, and then attached. I also  told my therapist that I wanted to look at my attachment issues.  I took an online quiz that said I had a dismissive attachment style overall, a secure attachment to my partner, and a fearful-avoidant attachment to my parents. I told her I did not put much credence in internet quizzes, but if there was anything we could do in therapy to deal with those issues, I wanted to.

My sense is this is highly significant.  I suspect your partner's core wound IS likely to be that of 'mattering.'  If so, then it is understandable why he would project to you that you only value him for his contribution for D15.  This is HIS fear.  (Not necessarily YOUR truth).

So what do I do with that? I didn't even know he was projecting until you mentioned it.

I recall that you at some point, decided to rely on a parenting hotline vs SO as a boundary.  If 'mattering' is SO core wound AND his perceived value is co-parenting with you... .  Then I imagine your withdrawal of allowing him to co-parent was distressing.  I also imagine your promise of him having guardianship may have been quite soothing.

What i did was call the parental stress line first and my partner second as I did not want my emotions to trigger his emotions. I wasn't so much promising him guardianship as I was recognizing the pragmatic reason for it: my d15 called him to call her in absence when she couldn't reach her father and she knew I was in class.

Boundaries, delineate your position on your values... .  ... .both to yourself and others.  It is my understanding that firm consistent boundaries are a necessary MUST when in a r/s with PD traits or a full PD.

Yes I understand that and holding up firm consistent boundaries takes a lot of energy especially when I'm simultaneously parenting a 15 year old in crisis.

I suspect that maintaing consistency on boundaries that are related to his core wound would be especially essential in establishing a sense of stability and longevity of this relationship.

I will do my best, I need to know how.

Blunt respone: RA

You will likely do best to cope with your feelings about this independent of him. Aka: without your partner's awareness or support.

Edit: While my post has references to topics in the past, and also in the future... .  What I feel is not being given sufficient attention is: the present. 

So I have to deal with the fact that he thinks his feelings are facts even though he prides himself on his intellectual capacities?

[Sunfl0wer]

So what do I do with that? I didn't even know he was projecting until you mentioned it.

My sense is that if you also suspect that his core wound is 'mattering' than that helps you understand what may guide his motivations and behaviors often. 

If this is correct then... .

He likely feels good when he feels valued. 

He likely feels distraught when his ability to contribute is somehow limited or restricted.

Does that sound somewhat accurate?

What I did was call the parental stress line first and my partner second as I did not want my emotions to trigger his emotions.

I believe that keeping your emotions in check to not trigger your partner is excellent!

I also suspect this is an emerging thing that you are working on... .hence, even more excellent.  (Please correct me If I am not understanding)

I wasn't so much promising him guardianship as I was recognizing the pragmatic reason for it: my d15 called him to call her in absence when she couldn't reach her father and she knew I was in class.

Yet, if it is mostly true about his core wound, you may have unintentionally gave a pull at his heart strings by indicating a future with him that involves d15.

While I recognize it as certainly a positive movement to be quite conscientious of not triggering your SO, I also suspect you have 'moved a boundary' in regards to his involvement in your and your D15's life.  This may complicate and confuse matters.  While it may appear a positive thing today, as he may respond in a positive manner and it also may not appear to be a 'current' issue... .it may bite you and him later on in some (in)direct way... .As consistent boundaries are essential.

I will do my best, I need to know how.

I in no way want want to appear 'ganging up on you,' however, it appears that so many whom are reading and following your posts are expressing that you appear to 'move boundaries.'

Do you think there is any validity to this?

I wonder if you think keeping a record of your just your values and boundaries will assist you in some way?  IDK really what would help reaffirm your values/boundaries... .what do you think?

So I have to deal with the fact that he thinks his feelings are facts even though he prides himself on his intellectual capacities?

Yup! You got it!   

Feelings = facts ... .is like some sort of hallmark of this PD stuff.  I have yet to see anyone here CHANGE that in a partner.  It MUST be RA! 

Please anyone correct me if they have an opposing experience with their SO.

Tough stuff here...  

[unicorn2014]

So what do I do with that? I didn't even know he was projecting until you mentioned it.

My sense is that if you also suspect that his core wound is 'mattering' than that helps you understand what may guide his motivations and behaviors often. 

If this is correct then... .

He likely feels good when he feels valued. 

He likely feels distraught when his ability to contribute is somehow limited or restricted.

Does that sound somewhat accurate?

I do  feel compelled to give him a way to contribute, so yes.

I also suspect this is an emerging thing that you are working on... .hence, even more excellent.  (Please correct me If I am not understanding)

It is, last Saturday I realized that if I called my partner when I was triggered that would go nowhere good.

Yet, if it is mostly true about his core wound, you may have unintentionally gave a pull at his heart strings by indicating a future with him that involves d15.

I never said he didn't have a future with me.

While I recognize it as certainly a positive movement to be quite conscientious of not triggering your SO, I also suspect you have 'moved a boundary' in regards to his involvement in your and your D15's life.  This may complicate and confuse matters.  While it may appear a positive thing today, as he may respond in a positive manner and it also may not appear to be a 'current' issue... .it may bite you and him later on in some (in)direct way... .As consistent boundaries are essential.

No, I didn't move a boundary, the boundary was around our romantic relationship and that is still intact. My partner is ok with being a coparent but not a romantic partner while he is waiting for his divorce to go through.

I in no way want want to appear 'ganging up on you,' however, it appears that so many whom are reading and following your posts are expressing that you appear to 'move boundaries.'

That's fine, like I said there was never a boundary around parenting, maybe other people were trying to get me to put one there but I didn't. I was actually able to redefine the relationship as a friend while my partner was filing for divorce and he was ok with that.

Do you think there is any validity to this?

I think that I have not stated clearly what I am doing so I will do so. I have drawn a boundary around the romantic relationship, that is offline until my partner files for divorce. I have communicated that to him and he is ok with it. We still function as friends and coparents.

I wonder if you think keeping a record of your just your values and boundaries will assist you in some way?  IDK really what would help reaffirm your values/boundaries... .what do you think?

I wasn't having a values/boundaries problem yesterday, I was having a feelings are facts problem which really frustrates me because it is such an old issue.

Feelings = facts ... .is like some sort of hallmark of this PD stuff.  I have yet to see anyone here CHANGE that in a partner.  It MUST be RA! 

Please anyone correct me if they have an opposing experience with their SO.

Tough stuff here...  

That is my problem and its a big one.

[Grey Kitty]

This one jumped out at me, as I think I've seen it before... .

We have a long standing issue in our relationship where my partner doesn't feel valued by me except for his contribution to my daughter, no matter what I tell him.

I've also seen you say a lot of things like this... .

P&C I don't have the energy to being holding boundaries for my pwBPD. His words effect me. I don't have the patience to be the unemotional one in the relationship. I wasn't even thinking about the divorce problem yesterday. This is a pure BPD problem. He believes his feelings are facts and there is nothing I can do to change that. Not only that he believes he has the right to tell me his feelings are facts no matter how much it hurts me.

[... .]

My partner is very much functioning as coparent.

Consider that your partner might be right that you only value him as a coparent.

You have said many times that he is a good coparent here.

You've expressed your fatigue, frustration, and exasperation at his other behavior here many times as well.

You might even want to ask yourself if that *IS* the only thing he can do well for you right now. Obviously, this would be an unpleasant and harsh truth... .but if it is either the real situation or how you really feel about the situation, don't pretend otherwise.

[thisagain]

The best advice I ever received here about building a r/ship with someone wBPD was don't tell him you love him--show him. Act like it.

I would say telling him you don't feel like talking after you made plans to talk and he re-arranges his schedule to do so--first, it's not acting loving. It's acting unpredictable and withholding and retaliatory ("I told him we'd talk but that was before I read his email".

Like Sunflower said, it seems to me you are actually unsure of your feelings for him. Understandable given the deception and lying. But I continue to have a hard time seeing much objectionable about his day to day dealings with you.

I didn't reply on your thread about boundaries because you'd quoted what I already wrote and I thought I'd let others comment next. But to go back to that topic: I think your inconsistency about boundaries is causing unnecessary discomfort and pain. You seem to shift daily what you're willing to do with him and what you're not depending on the smallest of perceived new transgressions. With pwBPD consistency is valuable; and others have written a lot about not managing your understandable resentment through withholding and punishment.

I recommend again that you try to answer the question "what kind of r/ship am I willing to have with a man who has deceived me about his marital status, is not yet divorced, and may not file for divorce?" I don't think you're clear on that yet. If you can answer that, then you can apply appropriate boundaries, be consistent, and I suspect stop being as bothered by the small daily blips, and also, stop hurting him by sudden zigs and zags in what you are willing to do.

P&C I don't have the energy to being holding boundaries for my pwBPD. His words effect me. I don't have the patience to be the unemotional one in the relationship. I wasn't even thinking about the divorce problem yesterday. This is a pure BPD problem. He believes his feelings are facts and there is nothing I can do to change that. Not only that he believes he has the right to tell me his feelings are facts no matter how much it hurts me.

I let the issue go for now because I have to take care of my daughter, but you're right, holding boundaries with him is hard.

I've read your posts about the boundary between partner and non partner.

My partner is very much functioning as coparent.

In fact I told him yesterday that once he is divorced we can look at him being a guardian for my child prior to us getting married.

I need a functional coparent. My daughter has having way too many issues for me to be parenting on my own and her father is definitely not a functional coparent. My partner is. My partner also seems to have a personality disorder.

I will write more about this later and respond to lonely child later  as right now my daughter is sick and I need to take care of her.

Hey Unicorn,

I agree with P&C's post quoted above and I'm worried about you... .If your partner is BPD or has BPD traits, you NEED to have the energy to hold boundaries for him. You NEED to be the "unemotional" one. Anything less will do significant harm to all three of you (including your daughter). His BPD behaviors are not going away.

Do you read other threads around here? Maybe some by the Staying veterans (no pun intended FF  ) like Formflier, Babyducks and Waverider? I'd like you to compare a few things... .the problems they describe versus the problems you describe with your pwBPD, their expectations of their pwBPD versus yours, and generally how much trouble they still have sometimes despite their impressive skill at boundaries and control of their own emotional reactions. That's a best case scenario BPD relationship.

Even if we could wave a magic wand and make him divorced tomorrow, I think you'd need to work a LOT on radical acceptance for this to work out. A pwBPD is NEVER going to listen when you say "you think your feelings are facts and they're not." But honestly I don't think many people would listen to that. It's hugely invalidating because even though no one's feelings are facts, they're still very real to that person. And in the context of an intimate relationship, feelings deserve to be heard, respected, and validated.

Not everyone is cut out to be the unemotional one who validates B.S. all day and receives little to no validation in return. I know I'm not (I think you read that link I posted a while ago about authenticity and how bad it feels to force or fake validation?). That said, I also agree with Patientandclear that I'm not seeing many problems in his day-to-day treatment of you. I'm seeing a LOT he's saying that is valid, and deserves for his partner to validate his feelings and adjust their behavior accordingly.

Also worried about your continuing to increase his involvement in your daughter's life, even though reading around here for a while should make it clear that pwBPD are not dependable people. They can't be your rock, or your daughter's rock. You have to be the rock. You often say that he's a great co-parent and you can depend on him to co-parent despite his BPD, but ... .that time your daughter ran away while you two were fighting? Probably would not have happened if he was not involved in her life (or acquainted with her to a degree that would generally be considered appropriate for a long-distance boyfriend). There's one example of his BPD, and/or your difficulty being "the unemotional one," harming your daughter. I'm sure there are more.

I also don't think he's okay with being a coparent but not a romantic partner while the divorce is pending. That contradicts what he's said about only feeling valued when you're talking about your daughter. Maybe he says he's okay with it because he's fearing abandonment and wants to keep some connection with you, but he's clearly not okay with it.

You seem to focus a lot on reading lessons, following steps, reading books, and making the next thread to address the next issue-of-the-day... .None of that is a substitute for in-depth personal reflection on the big picture. In fact I will promise you, the next book you read is NOT going to have the answer. Neither is the book after that. Reading the books and lessons helps, but only if you take the time to think critically about how they apply to your situation.

[unicorn2014]

You might even want to ask yourself if that *IS* the only thing he can do well for you right now. Obviously, this would be an unpleasant and harsh truth... .but if it is either the real situation or how you really feel about the situation, don't pretend otherwise.

No its not, I appreciate his insight into other things.

I think right now the whole relationship feels tainted to me because of the circumstances under which it was founded. I don't trust him right now because of everything that has happened before this, but that doesn't mean he isn't a valuable person.

He is a very deep, insightful and spiritual person. I am hoping that when he shows me he has filed for divorce, which is supposed to happen at the end of this week, I can let a lot of my bad feelings go. If he is able to file for and obtain a divorce, then I am willing to try and build a relationship with him from there.

[unicorn2014]

Even if we could wave a magic wand and make him divorced tomorrow, I think you'd need to work a LOT on radical acceptance for this to work out. A pwBPD is NEVER going to listen when you say "you think your feelings are facts and they're not." But honestly I don't think many people would listen to that. It's hugely invalidating because even though no one's feelings are facts, they're still very real to that person. And in the context of an intimate relationship, feelings deserve to be heard, respected, and validated.

I hear what you are saying and I know I need to work on my own attachment issues. I had my first session with my new therapist last week and I asked her if we could look at my attachment style , which may be dismissive, according to an internet test I took. I'm securely attached to my partner, fearfully avoidant of my parents and dismissive of everyone else. I know my partner has frequently complained about me being dismissive and devaluing in the past and I am willing to work on those issues if he indeed does follow through on filing and obtaining a divorce.

Not everyone is cut out to be the unemotional one who validates B.S. all day and receives little to no validation in return. I know I'm not (I think you read that link I posted a while ago about authenticity and how bad it feels to force or fake validation?). That said, I also agree with Patientandclear that I'm not seeing many problems in his day-to-day treatment of you. I'm seeing a LOT he's saying that is valid, and deserves for his partner to validate his feelings and adjust their behavior accordingly.

I'm not complaining about his day to day behavior. That is fine. What I am processing is that I had a three year relationship that was built on deceit. That is what is troubling and upsetting to me and that is what I'm going to have to let go of if this man files for and obtains divorce.

Also worried about your continuing to increase his involvement in your daughter's life, even though reading around here for a while should make it clear that pwBPD are not dependable people. They can't be your rock, or your daughter's rock. You have to be the rock. You often say that he's a great co-parent and you can depend on him to co-parent despite his BPD, but ... .that time your daughter ran away while you two were fighting? Probably would not have happened if he was not involved in her life (or acquainted with her to a degree that would generally be considered appropriate for a long-distance boyfriend). There's one example of his BPD, and/or your difficulty being "the unemotional one," harming your daughter. I'm sure there are more.

I disagree. My d15 running away had nothing to do with my argument with my partner. She has her own issues, and has had them since she was in kindergarten, and that is from both the divorce, and her temperament.

I am not increasing the involvement in my d15 life. She is the one who called him to ask him to call in her absence to school. He actually is the most dependable person I know when it comes to my d15. She and he have a lot in common actually. It is quite possible my d15 may have some traits herself. They are definitely more temperamentally alike then she and I. He's not the problem in my relationship with my daughter.

I also don't think he's okay with being a coparent but not a romantic partner while the divorce is pending. That contradicts what he's said about only feeling valued when you're talking about your daughter. Maybe he says he's okay with it because he's fearing abandonment and wants to keep some connection with you, but he's clearly not okay with it.

He is perfectly okay with it. I was very clear with him that I was not comfortable calling him my partner while he was still married. He totally understands where I'm coming from. Our relationship is a lot more comfortable to me now. What i have to do now is process past upset.

You seem to focus a lot on reading lessons, following steps, reading books, and making the next thread to address the next issue-of-the-day... .None of that is a substitute for in-depth personal reflection on the big picture. In fact I will promise you, the next book you read is NOT going to have the answer. Neither is the book after that. Reading the books and lessons helps, but only if you take the time to think critically about how they apply to your situation.

That's not what I am doing at all. While I am waiting for him to file and divorce one of the things I am doing with my free time is reading. I am a little bit uncomfortable with your certainty that I seem to be doing things wrong. Forgive me if I have misread you.

[unicorn2014]

Do you read other threads around here? Maybe some by the Staying veterans (no pun intended FF  ) like Formflier, Babyducks and Waverider? I'd like you to compare a few things... .the problems they describe versus the problems you describe with your pwBPD, their expectations of their pwBPD versus yours, and generally how much trouble they still have sometimes despite their impressive skill at boundaries and control of their own emotional reactions. That's a best case scenario BPD relationship.

I could not modify my post so I will say that I have been reading Formflier, baby ducks and waverider, but I will pay even closer attention. I actually read a lot more threads then I post in. Thank you for pointing them out to me. I am waiting until my partner files and divorces before moving back over to the staying board.

[Grey Kitty]

You might even want to ask yourself if that *IS* the only thing he can do well for you right now. Obviously, this would be an unpleasant and harsh truth... .but if it is either the real situation or how you really feel about the situation, don't pretend otherwise.

No its not, I appreciate his insight into other things.

I think right now the whole relationship feels tainted to me because of the circumstances under which it was founded. I don't trust him right now because of everything that has happened before this, but that doesn't mean he isn't a valuable person.

I didn't say he was worthless otherwise, or that you thought so. I don't think I was as clear as I meant to be--I was talking about how you feel about him, not about a more reasoned intellectual assessment of his abilities.

YOUR feelings may be strong enough in the hurt/betrayed/frustrated/angry/etc. realm that you cannot appreciate anything else from him. You can recognize that he is a valuable person... .and be so !@#$!@# pissed that you still don't want anything to do with him, and that anything he does or says will end up wrong and just leaving you pissed off.

Please try not to defend yourself against this--feelings exist, they cannot be wrong. Yours are real, and yours are valid, and are worth listening to and paying attention to. Maybe your feelings are different than what I'm suggesting... .this is a question for you; I don't live in your head and feel your feelings!

Feelings changer, and come and go. Perhaps tomorrow you will feel less strongly about this. Certainly you will feel differently when he's divorced. (Perhaps not how you expect to feel, but differently!)

[unicorn2014]

I didn't say he was worthless otherwise, or that you thought so. I don't think I was as clear as I meant to be--I was talking about how you feel about him, not about a more reasoned intellectual assessment of his abilities.

Right now I'm pretty disgusted with the whole situation. I had a relationship for 3 years that was built on a lie.

YOUR feelings may be strong enough in the hurt/betrayed/frustrated/angry/etc. realm that you cannot appreciate anything else from him. You can recognize that he is a valuable person... .and be so !@#$!@# pissed that you still don't want anything to do with him, and that anything he does or says will end up wrong and just leaving you pissed off.

I'm not angry though, betrayed yes, disgusted yes, but angry no. I'm past the anger now. It probably helped that I casually brought it up to him that I noticed that you have to be separated for 12 months before you file for divorce. His reaction to that helped me let go of the anger.

I'm not ok with the fact that I was in a relationship with a man for 3 years who misled me. Now I don't think he did it deliberately, with conscious intent, I think it was more sloppy on his part. Of course if I point that out to him he will get offended so I won't.

He tells me he will be filing by the end of the week, he's dealing with intellectual property rights that deal with another person besides his wife. I do believe now that he is making an effort to get divorced however that doesn't change the fact that he had a relationship with me for 3 years without showing me any proof of divorce at all. Unfortunately I didn't think to ask for it until 3 years after he told me he was divorcing, I had taken him at his word for that long.

Now that I look back on it, when he told me he was filing for bankruptcy that's the point at which I needed to have established the boundary I have established now, but at that point in time I didn't have BPD family and I didn't know any better. I was very upset when he told me he was "withdrawing the divorce" and filing for bankruptcy instead, upset enough to want to distance myself from him, but I didn't know how. The FOG was thick back then.

[LonelyChild]

Lonely child,

Not getting anything from back from my SO is not my problem.

My SO is working aca with a sponsor and has had some therapy.

In terms of the divorce , he is working on it. That's not what I was upset about. Lying and raging aren't problems at this point.

I will post the two sentence email.

unicorn2014,

You write; "in terms of the divorce, he is working on it." As I understand it, this has been an issue for many, many months now. With your best in mind: Perhaps you should figure out whether you are co-dependent.

Or put in layman's terms: He's treating you like ___, what are you getting out of this deal?

[thisagain]

That's not what I am doing at all. While I am waiting for him to file and divorce one of the things I am doing with my free time is reading. I am a little bit uncomfortable with your certainty that I seem to be doing things wrong. Forgive me if I have misread you.

Hey Unicorn,

I'm sorry for giving you that impression. I know very little about you or your relationship, so it's not my place at all to tell you you're "doing things wrong." The observation that upset you was something I've been noticing for a while, and other members have also pointed out the jumping between the issue-of-the-day while these big underlying questions are left unresolved (and continue to erode away at the relationship). It's good to see you working more on radical acceptance of the big issues. I know it's hard. You're in a tough spot and should be doing whatever brings you some comfort and clarity. I'm very glad that you've been feeling more comfortable about your relationship and hope that continues.

[unicorn2014]

Lonely child wrote

You write; "in terms of the divorce, he is working on it." As I understand it, this has been an issue for many, many months now. With your best in mind: Perhaps you should figure out whether you are co-dependent.

Or put in layman's terms: He's treating you like | please read |, what are you getting out of this deal?

I know I am codependent and I've been working on that off and on for over two decades.

What am I getting out of it?

Well things are complicated because my daughter is reaching out to him as a parental figure, so I suppose I'm getting a partner as a parent.

In terms of the other things I'm getting I have to figure out a way to say it without sounding narcissistic or leaving myself open to attack. I can say these are things I think are assets, that others have noticed.

He is a very smart man.

He's psychologically complicated.

He's good looking.

He's mature.

He's experienced.

He's responsible.

He cares about me.

He cares about my d15.

He seems to be motivated to want to get better.

--------

That being said his marital status is now totally unacceptable to me.

-----

That list of assets were all things said about him when I was under the belief that he had filed for divorce.

[unicorn2014]

This again wrote

Hey Unicorn,

I'm sorry for giving you that impression. I know very little about you or your relationship, so it's not my place at all to tell you you're "doing things wrong." The observation that upset you was something I've been noticing for a while, and other members have also pointed out the jumping between the issue-of-the-day while these big underlying questions are left unresolved (and continue to erode away at the relationship). It's good to see you working more on radical acceptance of the big issues. I know it's hard. You're in a tough spot and should be doing whatever brings you some comfort and clarity. I'm very glad that you've been feeling more comfortable about your relationship and hope that continues.

This thread isn't about the issue of the day. This thread is about how I feel now that is very clear to me he had been deceiving me for 3 years about his marital status. I don't think he was doing it with malevolent intent or even deliberately. I initially did bend my boundaries as I thought he had filed and so I consented to the relationship. I'm no longer willing to bend my boundaries so now I'm feeling pretty disgusted with the whole situation .

I am definitely not feeling more comfortable about my relationship however since I have taken a step back I have become less reactive.

I'm definitely not happy with him right now, however I find it very ironic that the thing that originally drew me to him, his intellectual gifts, is now causing the most problems, intellectual property rights.

I've never been involved with a person who has achieved as much as he has.

My first husband was a very simple man.

My current partner is not.

He seems to be even more complicated then I am.