Violation of sexual values/boundaries

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello Thisworld

Thank you for your bravery in starting this thread. I can sense your sadness and regret.  Questioning your core values and self-worth.

"I have also noticed something that's interesting. Whenever he experienced low self-worth (for instance a request to a friend was rejected or he fell out with someone etc) he would immediately want to have sex. It was systematic. And of course, there is no intimacy in this."

Rape, or near-rape, is linked with control and power, using sex as the means.

I have not experienced sex being used in this way; I have, many years ago, experienced violence from my ex-husband (not BPD but definitely something amiss) - it was usually after he'd had a bad day at work, or if I'd been successful in my career. He needed to diminish me.

It sounds as if something like this was going on in your relationship. It's evident that you are a successful woman and that his life and career are not flourishing.

I also wonder if this is linked to childhood conditioning regarding your relationship with your mother?

Whatever the reason, it's obvious from your posts that you are an intelligent, insightful and empathic woman. Please be kind to yourself when examining this part of your life. You were vulnerable, neither shame or guilt are attributable to you.  

[troisette]

Hello Thisworld

Thank you for your bravery in starting this thread. I can sense your sadness and regret.  Questioning your core values and self-worth.

"I have also noticed something that's interesting. Whenever he experienced low self-worth (for instance a request to a friend was rejected or he fell out with someone etc) he would immediately want to have sex. It was systematic. And of course, there is no intimacy in this."

Rape, or near-rape, is linked with control and power, using sex as the means.

I have not experienced sex being used in this way; I have, many years ago, experienced violence from my ex-husband (not BPD but definitely something amiss) - it was usually after he'd had a bad day at work, or if I'd been successful in my career. He needed to diminish me.

It sounds as if something like this was going on in your relationship. It's evident that you are a successful woman and that his life and career are not flourishing.

I also wonder if this is linked to childhood conditioning regarding your relationship with your mother?

Whatever the reason, it's obvious from your posts that you are an intelligent, insightful and empathic woman. Please be kind to yourself when examining this part of your life. You were vulnerable, neither shame or guilt are attributable to you.  

[thisworld]

Hello All,

I don't have any examples of my own to relate here, I am truly sorry that each of you went through this with another human being. In reading these responses, to me anyway, there seems to be a consistent theme linking them all together. thisworld called it: intimacy issues, which, for a pwBPD, can quickly translate into engulfment issues. Some of the words used to describe the various acts spoken of in this thread---sadistic, controlling, rape, avoidant, demeaning, acts that caused shame, guilt, and/or embarrassment, etc.---are just the opposite of words that would be employed in describing a loving, close, intimate relationship. Just a thought.

Thank you for your encouraging words Apollotech. And what you say is so true. No matter what the diagnoses or our ex people are, our own words show us that we did not find this behaviour "loving." Looking at our own wounds just tells us what was going on and it's good to remember that - as we tend to forget I reckon. And yes, this isn't intimacy. To me, it is kind of less heart-breaking when I take it out of that context. A bit of externalization also helps although I'm usually a great believer in looking at my role in things.

Again, thank you for your kind words.

[thisworld]

So maybe this sexual stuff and not fighting strongly actually felt less harmful than emotional abuse - in the end, he wasn't a stranger so probably this was easier to take. What do you think of this?   

I think that gets at part of the reason that I did some of the things that I did. One, I wanted to save the marriage at all costs. We have 4 kids and had been together 15 years when the blatant violations began. For me, it was easier to give into the sexual stuff than it was to risk him being upset or frustrated. I knew that if I took care of him on a regular basis he would be easier to live with in the long run. He would be nicer to me and the kids.

He wasn't a stranger. I made vows to him in front of our friends and family in a church. I felt that it was my duty to be a good wife and take care of his physical needs. (Forget the fact that my physical needs were forgotten and/or ignored.) So, it all became about him so that I could keep the peace the easiest way I knew how. My stbx is not in your face abusive. What he does is more subtle and more crazy making. I have a hard time putting up with the nagging and pouting and subtle stuff.

When I would try to set boundaries like telling him I didn't want to talk about anything that I did with anybody else, he would get mad and throw a fit. I was able to keep that boundary. The boundary that it took me the longest to set was to cut him off. Being with my stbx in a physical manner was like doing the dishes. I have a couple of friends that I told about it and it became a bit of a joke between us because I had to zone out to take care of his physical needs. It was like doing the dishes. There was no emotion and no connection. It was soo much easier to do that than it was to try to say no.

To add another layer to what made it difficult for me to keep within my values and boundaries. . .when I had the inappropriate online conversation, I didn't have a job outside the house. All of my days were spent at home with kids. I had a difficult time even getting out of the house to go grocery shopping. I went on a mom's night out one time and he made a big deal about me being home on time, blah, blah, blah. When I made plans to see somebody else, he would go so far as to take off work so he could make sure that I didn't have to worry about anything. I wanted out. I wanted attention. I wanted to feel valued. He valued me when I did that. He wanted me when I did that stuff. If I didn't do that stuff, he didn't want me. He would go right back to ignoring me. He would argue all of this with me. Because all of this was kept so quiet and so secret, it is his word against mine.

When I finally did work up the nerve to stop doing the dishes, it was difficult. I knew I had to do it because I couldn't live with myself if I continued to try to have a relationship with two different people. That whole thing stopped working for me. I couldn't do the dishes any more. As long as I did whatever my stbx wanted, then I was free to pursue other men. Turns out, I only want ONE man and that is the man that gave me back my power. I will be forever grateful to him. He told me that he could see the fear and disgust and sadness in my eyes. In that moment, he saw everything that I had been hiding. My stbx was there so it wasn't like either of us could say anything out loud. In that moment, he looked into my eyes and told me with just his eyes and body language that it was okay to say no. I proceeded to get up. My stbx didn't even notice. It was the other guy that noticed and stopped and checked on me.

I don't know if that answers your question or not. I went off on a bit of a tangent because I still struggle to make sense out of of all of this. In his mind, my stbx wasn't violating anything. I said yes. I went along with it all. In some cases, I even suggested some stuff. I don't understand it. I am so glad that you started this thread.

VortexofConfusion hi

Thanks again for sharing this and offering this perspective. It helps a lot. Saying no being difficult because of consequences resonates so much with me. The entire relationship was so energy-draining, it was physically very exhausting for me. So, I have learnt this about myself: I'm not as vigilant about my sexual boundaries as I think I would be in relationships that drain me. This is improvement for me because it is more positive than my initial overall anger, disappontment and shame with myself. This thread also helps me to move from shame to guilt and that's kind of lessening as well - though it may live with me for a bit:))

I think there is something in these relationships that cause us to acclimatize. I mean, everything was so out of the ordinary that it even didn't feel like these violations were coming from a healthy person, though it sure doesn't make it acceptable. Perhaps, just a bit more bearable, but that only sometimes.   

Thanks again for sharing. 

[thisworld]

Troisette hi

And thank you for your kind words. And everything rings so true.

Rape, or near-rape, is linked with control and power, using sex as the means.

This is how I look at it, too. Actually, as of now, I think in my ex's case, this may not even always be about controlling me. I mean, he had a habit of approaching me for sex during any experience of self-worth so who knows what was going on in his mind. Luckily, I feel that I don't need to learn that to feel better. Working on myself is empowering enough.

I have not experienced sex being used in this way; I have, many years ago, experienced violence from my ex-husband (not BPD but definitely something amiss) - it was usually after he'd had a bad day at work, or if I'd been successful in my career. He needed to diminish me.

I'm so sorry that you had to go through this.

It sounds as if something like this was going on in your relationship. It's evident that you are a successful woman and that his life and career are not flourishing.

Very interesting point. He used my career as a prize from a narcissistic perspective. He praised it a lot around other people - I personally didn't enjoy it much (I have been working on receiving complements better for a decade now:)) but I liked the fact that he recognized my work. Then my ideas about this changed.

After our relationship, I had a chance to see so much envy and hatred coming from him that I was shocked. At one point, he seemed to be obsessed with the fact that I own a house and he was shouting at me, insulting me for this - this, right after an attack from my NPD mother on the phone when I wasn't particularly strong felt so bad. I mean I didn't exactly expect empathy from him but it just made me think "Who are these people in my life?" At another point, my language skills became a subject of attack as I happened to have some pleasant conversation with an American woman. Basically, anything, anything that could be deemed slightly positive got mentioned in a negative way. I think my body image suffered from this and sex or emotional cheating became an area of control or power fight. I'm kind of immune to this sort of stuff thanks to my mother but feel bad when someone is trying to do this to me. Something inner is triggered and a little girl says "Why, oh why." This is from my childhood and luckily, I'm able to recognize it now. But this causes me to detach very quickly - and that's not actually bad, is it:))

Please be kind to yourself when examining this part of your life. You were vulnerable, neither shame or guilt are attributable to you.  love

Thank you so much Troisette.  I'll remember this