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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Remorse and Grief  (Read 645 times)
JaneStorm
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« on: January 26, 2016, 09:24:22 PM »

 Not sure which thread this belongs!

I have been listening to Arnold Bennett's Mental Efficiency on audio, found here for free download: https://librivox.org/mental-efficiency-and-other-hints-to-men-and-women-by-arnold-bennett/

Albeit rather "King's English", I found this particular section of Chapter 3, Breaking from the Past, very useful. I went online to grab sections of text that really spoke to me and I hope someone here finds value in it also. I had to look up some words so I put the definitions in! 

This part speaks of the excitement of Resolutions; which mean nothing without execution!

Excerpt
And at this hour, while the activity of the Resolution is yet in full blast, I would wish to insist on the truism, obvious perhaps, but apt to be overlooked, that a man cannot go forward and stand still at the same time. Just as

moralists have often animadverted upon the tendency to live in the future, so I would animadvert [pass criticism or censure on; speak out against] upon the

tendency to live in the past.

Because all around me I see men carefully tying them- selves with an unbreakable rope to an immovable post at the bottom of a hill and then struggling to climb the hill. If there is one Resolution more important than another it is the Resolution to break with the past. If life is not a continual denial of the past, then it is nothing.

This may seem a hard and callous doctrine, but you know there are aspects of common sense which decidedly are hard and callous. And one finds constantly in plain common-sense persons (O rare and select band!) a surprising quality of ruthlessness mingled with softer traits. Have you not noticed it? The past is absolutely intractable. One can't do anything with it. And an exaggerated attention to it is like an exaggerated attention to sepulchers [a small room or monument, cut in rock or built of stone, in which a dead person is laid or buried]-- a sign of barbarism. Moreover, the past is usually the enemy of cheerfulness, and cheerfulness is a most precious attainment.

This following goes along with my attitude towards "hope" ("Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man." - Friedrich Nietzsche).

Excerpt
Personally, I could even go so far as to exhibit hostility towards grief, and a marked hostility towards remorse -- two states of mind which feed on the past instead of on the present. Remorse, which is not the same thing as repentance, serves no purpose that I have ever been able to discover. What one has done, one has done, and there's an end of it. As a great prelate unforgettably said, "Things are what they are, and the consequences of them will be what they will be. Why, then, attempt to deceive ourselves"-- that remorse for wickedness is a useful and praiseworthy exercise? Much better to forget. As a matter of fact, people “indulge “in remorse; it is a somewhat vicious form of spiritual pleasure. Grief, of course, is different, and it must be handled with delicate consideration.

Nevertheless, when I see, as one does see, a man or a woman dedicating existence to sorrow for the loss of a beloved creature, and the world tacitly applauding, my feeling is certainly inimical [tending to obstruct or harm]. To my idea, that man or woman is not honouring, but dishonouring, the memory of the departed; society suffers, the individual suffers, and no earthly or heavenly good is achieved. Grief is of the past; it mars the present; it is a form of indulgence, and it ought to be bridled much more than it often is. The human heart is so large that mere remembrance should not be allowed to tyrannize over every part of it.

Finally, my favorite excerpt of this:

Excerpt
But cases of remorse and absorbing grief are comparatively rare. What is not rare is that misguided loyalty to the past which dominates the lives of so many of us. I do not speak of leading principles, which are not likely to incommode [inconvenience] us by changing; I speak of secondary yet still important things. We will not do so-and-so because we have never done it – as if that was a reason! Or we have always done so-and-so, therefore we must always do it – as if that was logic!

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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 12:06:54 AM »

Hi JaneStorm,

I think there are many of us who would like to let go of the past, or at least not have it affect our present so much, and approach new situations "fresh". 

This author seems to set timelines and rules on which emotions are acceptable and for how long.  I have not read the source site/article, so my opinion could be premature, but to me this sounds less like healthy emotional management, and more like repression.  Trauma-associated emotions arise for a reason, and in my view, accepting and allowing emotions is likelier to lead to the desired outcome (even if that seems backwards).

Maybe you'd like to say more about what it was about this approach that appeals to you?  You'd like to have more freedom from/mastery over certain emotions?

eeks



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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 07:56:21 AM »

Hey JS-

Yes, one way to get 'stuck' is to get stuck in a timeframe, past, present or future; healthier and more fulfilling to consider all of them concurrently.

One way to get stuck in the past is through unresolved emotion, something we keep banging up against but never feel all the way through, so are bound to repeat it.  Another way is change is scary, because it's different and many times it's outside our comfort zone; the past is attractive at times like that because it's familiar and there aren't any surprises.  It may suck, but it's familiar.

We can't change the past, but we can change what we make it mean, which is the gift really, and beyond that it's a focus shift.  First, what does the life of your dreams look like?  Sound like?  Feel like?  Who's in it?  Once we design that life of our dreams we can make it so compelling, so bright, that it pulls us towards it, and then take steps towards it, one step at a time, which builds momentum.  And as we take that journey, because life is a journey, we can look to the past for lessons and wisdom, that's where all the value in the past is, look to the future for direction, and live fully in the now: we know where we've been, we know where we are and we know where we're going, all at the same time.  Take care of you!
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 03:57:44 PM »

Excerpt
... .man cannot go forward and stand still at the same time.

For me, this means so much because I have seen in myself over the years that I have wanted my relationships with lovers or my mother to change but I didn't want to do anything different; sometimes due to ignorance, but sometimes fear.

Such as, in my r/s with the BPDex. I wanted him to just stop being a nut; however, I wanted to just keep being ME and doing what I have always done.

I had to make changes also, within myself. This of course, did not change him in any way, but it did give me the personal life I wanted.

It is not with him (this was the fear that held me).

Excerpt
... .men carefully tying them- selves with an unbreakable rope to an immovable post at the bottom of a hill and then struggling to climb the hill.

If there is one Resolution more important than another it is the Resolution to break with the past.

If life is not a continual denial of the past, then it is nothing.

I disengaged in the insane pursuit of trying to ‘change’, ‘educate’, and ‘love’ the crazy out of his head (or my mother's).

Once I untied the rope of futility (trying to change anyone but myself), the summit became a true thing to move toward; with less effort.

I strive to deny the past….I deny its hold on me. It can’t keep me trapped in a cycle any longer.

I recognize it, can’t change it, I am learning from it (learning to untie the ropes), and now I have to climb.

Excerpt
The past is absolutely intractable. One can't do anything with it.

With my history of various traumas over my life, this is powerful to ponder. I am taking the time to reconcile this fact not only in therapy but with EMDR.

There is nothing to be done but leave it where it is.

Life is now and if I am fortunate, I have the future ahead of me.

I can’t waste any more time ruminating over sour milk. This is why I am in T; I am learning to let it go.

Excerpt
Remorse, which is not the same thing as repentance, serves no purpose that I have ever been able to discover.

What one has done, one has done, and there's an end of it. As a great prelate unforgettably said, "Things are what they are, and the consequences of them will be what they will be. Why, then, attempt to deceive ourselves"-- that remorse for wickedness is a useful and praiseworthy exercise?

Much better to forget. As a matter of fact, people “indulge “in remorse; it is a somewhat vicious form of spiritual pleasure.

This helps me stop wanting to see ‘remorse’ from my BPDex or BPD mother, for that matter. Remorse, AKA ‘crocodile tears’ are useless.

It is used as a hook to keep a “Non” engaged in hope and continually perpetuates the pwBPD's self-victim mentality. What it does not do, however, is change the behavior.

How many times have we heard “I’m Sorry”, only for the pwBPD to double down?

Repentance on the other hand, “adds the implication of a resolve to change <repentance accompanied by a complete change of character>”

We don’t get that from pwBPD.

Excerpt
Grief, of course, is different, and it must be handled with delicate consideration.

Grief is of the past; it mars the present; it is a form of indulgence, and it ought to be bridled much more than it often is. The human heart is so large that mere remembrance should not be allowed to tyrannize over every part of it.

This is good for me. I preface this with the fact that I am lucky to not have had a child die, like three of my friends have, so I can apply this in a less gut-wrenching manner for myself.

Grieving a lost childhood, lost relationships, lost dreams, lost parent, lost pets…... I have worked and continue to do so, to leave it in the past so I can live my life fully.

Everyone in their time, but for me, I lean towards the Stoics on this one. The other option is just too debilitating for me and it becomes WHO I am. I won’t allow that anymore.

I give it the time I feel it deserves (depending on the loss) and then I forge ahead.

Again, I say this works for me because I have not had to endure the death of one of my children.

Excerpt
What is not rare is that misguided loyalty to the past which dominates the lives of so many of us.

I am working on this. It goes way back to my traumatic childhood; the caregiver, the codependent child of an alcoholic/BPD parent, being programmed at an early age that others’ happiness depends on me and what I can do for them, and the associated guilt if I am doing/feeling well and they are not.

Feeling responsible for others has been my downfall and I think it will be the biggest challenge of my life to let go of such loyalty to the past.

I do live in my head and overthink things   ^^obviously^^  , but I will not let others' sickness define me. I do not want to be an old woman full of regret and lost opportunities at happiness because I chose to cloak myself in an unfortunate cluster of bad past experiences. I grew up seeing my mother do this and it is not for me.

I have no idea if I made sense to the question posed to me, eeks!
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 06:16:26 PM »

I have no idea if I made sense to the question posed to me, eeks!

A lot of sense, actually.

My original concern I think may have been based on rationalizations that I have heard from my mother (a survivor of emotional and sexual abuse) over the years.  She will say that an emotion like anger "doesn't do her any good" and rather than the healthy principles of acceptance and equanimity, her response is more one of resignation ("sigh, oh well, I guess I'll never get what I need" and dissociation (put the feelings and needs away where she can't see them, pretend they're not there).

However you are saying that these words lead you towards acceptance and insight, including accepting that your mother will never be able to give you something that she doesn't have.

I suspect that there will be a difference here, on whether people tend to be "thinkers" or "feelers", what paths and words will resonate with them.

Thanks for your response. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2016, 06:29:17 PM »

Thanks for that, eeks. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2016, 04:35:40 PM »

Thank you for this very interesting thread JaneStorm. It has made me think of so many things at once, and also I thought of how many different (and sometimes contradictory) healing methods I have been through in my life. They all worked in different ways and I think, like everyone else (probably), I have come up with my own mixed bag of things. Actually, I believe this is the reality of our age in a way, with information flowing from everyone, with things sticking with us. And then we all heal partly through methods and partly organically, even through contradictory things. I think, at least in my life, these never work in very strictly planned ways. Within this mix, I find Bennet's ideas a good reminder of power/empowerment/control. Like my Al-Anon worked started with accepting helplessness but moved toward more conscious decisions of letting go. I find both possible, at the same time even though they seem like opposites.

My definition of grieving and healing mostly comes from Freud's classical theory of mourning and melancholia - not that I have chosen it, it's just more popular than some other things. And then yes, there is Elizabeth Kubler Ross's stages of grief which certainly helps. As far as I know, Freud's theory and similar approaches rely on integrating sadness, resolving feelings. Nowadays we tend to do this by working on our emotions consciously I suppose. But this is relatively new in human history, even the idea of an unconscious is so new. So, I'm wondering, did people not grieve and resolve their feelings before they had access to our modern methods? And yes, they certainly did. Many native cultures have rituals, religions have certain practices and even observances that have time-frames. I think if you believe them, they help. If you don't they don't.

And if Bennet's method speaks to an individual in a special sense, then one can heal through it. There is something that gives power to the individual in Bennet's work and if an individual needs that power to break a certain cycle, then it works even if it's against the grain of Freud's formation of us as entities under the control of this thing called the unconscious. I need that sometimes, a decision to let go, believing that I can let go (even if it's a false belief butt I don't believe it's false) has helped me during very critical times in my life. I experienced this with CBT actually. At one point in my life I came down with thought OCD, CBT helped me. I haven't had paralyzing thoughts for a long time now, I can just cope without medication and feel good - despite some life crises like an unexpected divorce. But I have read research that says CBT actually doesn't help with OCD, there you go:)) Likewise, the psychoanalytical approach says there is a trauma at the core of OCD. When I was down with it, there was no way I could do probing work like that - as that was my very illness:)) CBT helped by empowering me: whatever the cause, whatever this is, you can change it. Now, I feel empowered and balanced enough to do probing work if I feel like it. The conscious decision of Bennett reminds me of these. I think it's empowering. So, thank you for sharing it.

I also thought about my particular relationship with a psychiatrist. I had a strong therapeutic bond with him, again in the OCD context. Once he just said, "you don't have to dwell on this you know." It felt like an invisible responsibility, an obligation was lifted off my shoulders. I was liberated by that very simple statement coming from someone trusted. A particular obsession stopped:))

So I believe there is something in us that cannot be summed up by just one theory; different theories help uncover different things but our meaning comes from so many sources as well. And that feeling of control, that feeling of power over traumatic incidents is just what we need sometimes when trauma signals helplessness all the time.

Thank you for reminding this with Bennet's work - albeit in King's English

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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2016, 12:55:08 AM »

thisworld, You have made my day reading your response from your perspective.   

I agree; different times in our lives command different styles, that may seem to an outsider, to be contradictory.

I have been on a journey all of my life; consciously, since my mid to late 20s. To tell you the various paths would take so very much time and space here.

None of it matters in this discussion, as the only thing that does is the NOW.

I am here, now.

I will be there, then.

I have so much gratitude to have found this support system, during this awakening.

I hope to never need it in the future, but to share with those that do.


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You were the love of my life
This time we know, we know
It's over..."
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2016, 08:02:13 AM »

Lin Yutang says “Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials.” I guess, sometimes when we choose to leave certain things undone, this is also a declaration that we are done with them, we got them done by not doing anything about them anymore. They are not essentials for us. In a sense, we have reclaimed ourselves even though we may still feel something negative sometimes. But then who doesn't?

And my favourite from Lin Yutang:

“When Small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.”

Let's all look at the rising sun.

To the now and the rising sun! 
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 02:07:02 PM »

Lin Yutang says “Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials.” I guess, sometimes when we choose to leave certain things undone, this is also a declaration that we are done with them, we got them done by not doing anything about them anymore. They are not essentials for us. In a sense, we have reclaimed ourselves even though we may still feel something negative sometimes. But then who doesn't?

And my favourite from Lin Yutang:

“When Small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.”

Let's all look at the rising sun.

To the now and the rising sun! 

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"You are the love of my life
You are the love of my life
You were the love of my life
This time we know, we know
It's over..."
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2016, 08:12:54 PM »

Thank you JaneStorm, most entertaining and relevant read to my status of recovery.

I feel compelled, for personal reasons, to point out that people with unresolved PTSD, that are stuck in the past and know not how to escape it, may find it painful to read these quotes. 

I mention this for anyone that may feel helpless to escape the gravity of the past - I know there were many years I received sound sage advice and was unable to action it for reasons unknown to me at that time... .

Cheers
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2016, 08:44:32 PM »

Thank you JaneStorm, most entertaining and relevant read to my status of recovery.

I feel compelled, for personal reasons, to point out that people with unresolved PTSD, that are stuck in the past and know not how to escape it, may find it painful to read these quotes. 

I mention this for anyone that may feel helpless to escape the gravity of the past - I know there were many years I received sound sage advice and was unable to action it for reasons unknown to me at that time... .

Cheers

I understand this. I hope this can serve as the lighthouse in the storm for those that are not ready. All of us have seeds planted in us (I speak of the healthy ones), that can sprout months or even years later. I put this out there; not only because I am close to being ready to absorb this but also because I remember all of the times that my wiser contacts tried to impart some of this on me, when I was not ready. It was ok because it was a seed that has germinated and now I can see the sprouts.

Man and His Symbols; Viktor Frankel. Smiling (click to insert in post) Inspired me.
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 12:43:43 PM »

I feel compelled, for personal reasons, to point out that people with unresolved PTSD, that are stuck in the past and know not how to escape it, may find it painful to read these quotes. 

I mention this for anyone that may feel helpless to escape the gravity of the past - I know there were many years I received sound sage advice and was unable to action it for reasons unknown to me at that time... .

Joe, if I had to guess what those reasons were, why you could not take action on the advice, I would say that it is because trauma is a physiological phenomenon.  This link explains it in the context of sexual abuse and assault, but seems relevant to me for trauma generally.  It explains how trauma causes a person not to be able to "assign events to the past", and although it doesn't go into detail, explains that therapy can increase a survivor's "window of tolerance".

www.ninaburrowes.com/books/the-courage-to-be-me/chapter-2/

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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2016, 06:48:16 AM »

I feel compelled, for personal reasons, to point out that people with unresolved PTSD, that are stuck in the past and know not how to escape it, may find it painful to read these quotes. 

I mention this for anyone that may feel helpless to escape the gravity of the past - I know there were many years I received sound sage advice and was unable to action it for reasons unknown to me at that time... .

Joe, if I had to guess what those reasons were, why you could not take action on the advice, I would say that it is because trauma is a physiological phenomenon.  This link explains it in the context of sexual abuse and assault, but seems relevant to me for trauma generally.  It explains how trauma causes a person not to be able to "assign events to the past", and although it doesn't go into detail, explains that therapy can increase a survivor's "window of tolerance".

www.ninaburrowes.com/books/the-courage-to-be-me/chapter-2/

Eeks

That is a really awesome link.  Nice to see trauma broken down in a way that makes it easier to understand.  Yes, your point about it being physiological is spot on!  That was what I was (indirectly) trying to get at.  My response was as much for me as perhaps others, who for too many years of their adulthood, could understand the content but feel broken about placing it in a context - due to undeveloped/underdeveloped/disconnected neural pathways. 

After further reflection, I suppose the real reason for my response to this post is born of my own experience and is somewhat trauma-based.  Repeated traumas were always presented in such a disorienting context of normalcy.  It made it so I could not distinguish where I was normal or abnormal; 'there is nothing wrong with you, why don't you simply move on - you are so gifted'.  This left me questioning why I could not "get it" and took me to reading and trying to understand philosophy; Nietzsche was one of those that I used to read.  Many-many years went by trying to incorporate ideas that, while sound, could not be integrated.  This seemed to match my broken sense of 'what is wrong with me'. 

Perhaps my response is a flashback to that time in my life and was intended as an open statement affirming my internal experiences and was also truly intended to be a message to others that may be reading it thinking; if only I could simply follow along - what's wrong with me - the answers are so clear... .etc.

So I think my response is out of tune with the spirit of the post - which is a very good post.  I just felt a sadness come over me.

Sorry to have digressed so far off the topic.  The depth of the human-web is quite deep indeed and frequently seems incongruent when one has been impacted.  Hopefully the context of my reply is clear now.

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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2016, 08:47:19 AM »

I love the direction this is going.  I love the link also. Reading what Joe and eeks wrote leads me to see how DBT was born.

I too struggle with the obvious logic and the negative self-messages.  I tend to baffle not only my friends,  but my T at how I can simultaneously spout a Stoic philosophy,  yet not quite absorb it all, myself.

I'm a complicated woman,  trying to simplify!
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You were the love of my life
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2016, 11:04:32 AM »

 
After further reflection, I suppose the real reason for my response to this post is born of my own experience and is somewhat trauma-based.  Repeated traumas were always presented in such a disorienting context of normalcy.  It made it so I could not distinguish where I was normal or abnormal; 'there is nothing wrong with you, why don't you simply move on - you are so gifted'.  This left me questioning why I could not "get it" and took me to reading and trying to understand philosophy; Nietzsche was one of those that I used to read.  Many-many years went by trying to incorporate ideas that, while sound, could not be integrated.  This seemed to match my broken sense of 'what is wrong with me'. 

Fascinating observation, I too have noticed this kind of thing in myself and others, that we are drawn to ideas/people/approaches that reinforce our already existing sense of self.  I believe it to be not very common that a person actually leaves their comfort zone to create new patterns (rather than just redecorating the comfort zone, but honestly believing they are healing, doing the work, etc.). 

I too struggle with the obvious logic and the negative self-messages.  I tend to baffle not only my friends,  but my T at how I can simultaneously spout a Stoic philosophy,  yet not quite absorb it all, myself.

My mother is kind of like this.  I believe for her it is a trauma defense.  She was not allowed to express feelings hardly at all growing up (according to her parents there was always too much work to be done to worry about silly things like feelings).  She escaped into books (which of course prompted her mother to say "put that book down and go do something useful" and she, too, was drawn to philosophy from an early age (she read Lao Tzu in grade 9.  Grade 9!)   

And so often when I was in distress as a child or teenager, she would come out with these one-liners that many, many years later I can see had some truth to them, but were bordering on impossible for me to implement in the form that she gave them to me at the level of maturity I had at the time.  I believe my response (which was often confusion, and feeling worse than when I started) is because she was not emotionally attuned to what was really happening for me, so could not join me where I was, could only stick a disembodied answer on it, one that she herself had not lived out. 

For her, because feelings were dangerous to have, she retreated into thoughts.  This, however, can create a schism between thoughts and lived experience (emotional, somatic).  She believes that feelings are a poor basis on which to make a decision because they are unreliable.  Which is hugely ironic (I probably used that word wrong; don't care) because I can look at her life and see that nearly everything she does is based on FEAR!   

I re-read what you wrote about your mother, and I agree that it is an exercise in futility and frustration to expect a disordered parent to validate you or meet your needs.  They cannot give what they don't have, period.  So, grieving seems to be in order.  I have rationally understood this concept as well yet don't seem to be able to get through the grief process, and now that I am reading Pete Walker's complex PTSD book I am wondering if that is because I have not had as good a relationship with grief's "sidekick", anger?

I read something in the book about how traumatizing parents disable the child's natural fight response (this would be the instinctive response to violation, and setting boundaries self-protective type anger, the healthy kind) and I had a parental message pop up, "You don't get angry at people who love you".  What, wait a minute, why not? 

My mother says "anger never did me any good", and yet, my father used to get explosively angry at the smallest things (he's mellowed out as he's gotten older, although only somewhat) and I have just been realizing how much of the apparent peace of my childhood was because my mother was walking on eggshells around my father and trained me and my sister to do the same?

So JaneStorm, I'm curious, what is your relationship with anger like?

Excerpt
I'm a complicated woman,  trying to simplify!

For me, simplicity is found in attention to emotions and sensations in the moment.  This is not my natural tendency though, and I have to point out that people will do just about anything to avoid strong feelings, when those feelings would have been perceived as a threat to the parental bond in childhood.  Survival trumps fulfillment.  So, we need to somehow get in there and unfreeze these feelings. 
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