Buddhists please reply

[emergent]

I need some support, as a Buddhist in a failed relationship with a pwBPD. I am usually on the Leaving board, but this issue is more of a personal inventory/self-awareness one.

I went through a very difficult day today with my ex. I still live with her, for legal reasons. Today I got raged at for hours, in several bouts, and accused of all kinds of terrible things that are in fact her own current failures. It hasn't been this bad for a long time. It all came in response to the question of whether or not I could go out on my own for an evening, which is not ok with her for many reasons including that she can not accept me getting a babysitter for the kids. Note that she is not their biological mother (I am their biological mother - yes, you read that right). I expected resistance, and it was a real question, not a demand, but I was devastated to see it turn into a day of screaming, crying, cancelling classes I was supposed to give, and me fleeing to a friend's house for refuge, as it did.

I know that it is my ego taking a beating, and that any automatic responses I come up with (like, I'm right and you're wrong) are those of the ego. I also know that the ego is necessary for survival, not only physical but psychological. I am confident that my version of the truth about what I said when I asked if I could go out is correct, and therefore that my ego is correct. She is just as confident about her version of the truth, which evidently is that I am permanently evil and selfish.

I can't remember the last time I went out for an evening on my own. I have felt too much obligation and guilt, as if I were not allowed. BPDex has forbidden it, in her sneaky FOGgy ways, just as she has forbidden me to work. I feel fairly justified in my egocentric behaviour here. And I feel confident that another aspect of her version of the truth, that I am a control freak, is a projection of her own control issues. I am anything but controlling: I left it all up to her for 15 years.

I found and communicated what I needed today. By the end of the afternoon, I told her that even if she did not accept it, in order to avoid days like this happening often, we were going to have to set up a balanced schedule for who takes the kids when, especially since we will hopefully soon live separately. When it's not that person's day with the kids, that person is free. Holy, did she ever not like that idea. She feels that scheduling is my way of controlling, which is not true. Even as I tried to make it clear that I am no longer capable of withstanding days like today, she refused to schedule anything, so that her freedom of going out at a moment's notice would not be compromised. My approach was more one of asking a week in advance if it would be ok and offering to find places for the kids to go or even bringing them with me. I was willing to accommodate anything she wanted, even if she demanded that I stay at the house. I would rather give in to whatever she wants than have her rage at me (and I know that's wrong but I'm not strong enough). But in general, the scheduling thing would be more fair, or at least I feel it would. No, she won't have it.

She was so anti-cooperative and so demeaning today, and she so flatly and cruelly refused to alleviate the pain I feel when she rages (I know, she can't), that I threw a glass and it broke into a million pieces. This is the first time I have externalized my anger like this, I think ever in my life. The frustration builds and builds with all the unfounded accusations I receive without a chance to defend myself, the ego is more and more hurt, until it's got a gaping wound in it, too painful to describe. I've usually cowered in a corner and bawled my eyes out once BPDex has left the room, feeling like a million pieces of shattered glass. This time I had the same feeling, but with an empty water glass in my hands, I let it fly. BPDex was outside smoking (and fuming), and the kids were at school (I never would have done that with them around). It brought on a crying spell, then I cleaned it all up and felt better.

I used the phrase higher up: I feel justified in my egocentric behaviour here (demanding a schedule), and I do so because it is a survival tactic. I am one of the sentient beings who deserves compassion; it is not just all *other* sentient beings. I've come to understand that my well-being is also important. I also feel justified in finally externalizing my anger (I doubt it will happen again). Have you felt these things in your own situations with BPDs? The strange thing is, if I'd been answering this question myself 6 months ago, my codependent caretaker perfect-Buddhist answer would have been, it's never justifiable. I won't be hurt by your responses no matter what they are, so please be honest.

[eeks]

I'm not a Buddhist (I feel so impish responding anyway, heh) but I hope I can discuss your experience with you in a way that will help (while we wait for any members who are Buddhists to chime in)

I started a thread a while ago about anger, https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=283653.0;all because it is an important topic for survivors of abuse or neglect.  Families that are emotionally unhealthy often have rigid rules about anger (when it is allowed, about what, and who is allowed to express it, and in what way).  

I also feel justified in finally externalizing my anger (I doubt it will happen again). Have you felt these things in your own situations with BPDs? The strange thing is, if I'd been answering this question myself 6 months ago, my codependent caretaker perfect-Buddhist answer would have been, it's never justifiable.

This is interesting to me.  If I understand right, you are saying that your codependent traits latched on to some aspects of Buddhism, like the teachings about anger?  My mother has said on numerous occasions that her beliefs are like Buddhist acceptance and equanimity... .but I think they are more like resignation.  Not the same thing.

so, a few questions for inquiry... .

1) What is the difference between feeling anger, and taking action based on anger?

2) What would happen if you accepted feelings of anger and just observed them?  Noticing the attributes of the sensations... .thoughts or storylines that they are connected to... .what do you observe?

3) You described the thoughts and feelings building up in you prior to breaking the glass on the floor, and you feel some unease around the fact that you "externalized" anger.  You say you felt better afterwards, though.  Is there more to observe/explore there?  

Was anyone harmed by your actions?  How would you feel about the possible perspective that breaking the glass was the minimal harm that could be done in the situation based on your strong feelings?

Is externalizing anger always the most harmful course of action?

Do you think there might be some situations where it is best to contain anger and be mindful about it, and others where expression of anger might be more beneficial?

eeks

[ArleighBurke]

I'm almost a Buddhist. A few years back I was researching my beliefs, and found the Buddhist beliefs matched my own, and so I started identifying as one. I have read a fair amount, but am still really a newbie.

I believe the Buddhist philosophy is to lose your ego, to accept life as is, and therefore you feel you should not get angry? Getting angry is a result of attachment which you shouldn't have?

Do you think the Buddah himself would have remained calm if he had a BPD wife threatening his kids?

I think emotion has a purpose. Your anger is probably a combination of the love for your children, the desire to do right by them, the desire to do right by yourself, and the sheer stupidity of your partner. Everyone has their limits. I think you are justified in feeling anger. See your anger as a measure of your love for your children. Perhaps your methods of expressing it need refinement, but i can imagine the size of your anger. Meditation and mindfullness can only go so far.

You are justified in seeking time for yourself. That is not selfish - that is taking care of yourself. Just like you could donate all your money to charity, or use it to take care of yourself. Taking care of yourself is an OK thing. You could even argue that it is required - to ensure you are healthy enough to care for your kids.

As for the care arrangements, if your partner is unwilling to commit to a schedule, then I would be saying:

   - I will go out X nights per week.

   - I would prefer if <partner> was able to care for the kids on those nights

   - if not, I will employ a sitter

   - this is part of you looking after yourself.

You have stated your boundary (the activity), and allowed your partner to decide what role she will play. Her choice will not impact your decision.

[Eyeamme]

Anger is usually fear and hurt. You are also human. Be kind to the frightened you.

[emergent]

I didn't mean to say "non-Buddhists do not reply." I appreciate all feedback, and these are very helpful responses. Too busy to reply properly today, but I will soon. Thanks to you all.

[JaneStorm]

I can't say I am Buddhist, but I do enjoy the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh (Thay). I have also attended a few retreats with the Monastics over the years, and will again.

What I came to realize (I need to be constantly reminded and the Universe has a sneaky way of doing so... .) is I need to stop sacrificing mySelf and my happiness for others. It isn’t healthy. Doing something out of love, to be helpful, is different from doing it out of fear or need, because you want validation. There is no extra credit for martyrdom.

In other words, I need to check my motives on a regular basis.

With the addictive relationship that I had with my exBPDbf, I had to go through some checklists to finally muscle through the inevitable behaviors he would have, once I felt at peace with wanting to care for mySelf, as I would my adult children. I would never accept their going through a futile and tumultuous relationship as I have!

1. How do I feel in his presence: drained or alive? drained

2. Does he always have my best interests in mind? Often? EVER? I am going to say hardly ever, if ever. He does not check his own motives

3. Does he belittle me when I share your feelings? Attack when I am vulnerable? of course!

4. Does he make promises and never follow up? is water wet?

I went through my anger towards him. Releasing all that I had stuffed down so he would not act out and corrode the relationship; he did anyway. There was nothing I could have said or done to prevent it. That is who HE is. I felt the anger, which served as a tool towards positive action. Was I really angry at him, or at mySelf for insisting on being where I did not belong? I pondered that and it was me that I was angry at. I finally forgave myself because I know I had to learn a few things during that season. (The next time I am thinking of being with someone, I will ask him, not how many times he has been married or anything as topical as that; I will ask, "what have you learned in retrospect, from your past relationships... .) I can then see if he has retrospect! If not, May the Force Be With You... .bye.

It is not easy to let go of the past (hopes, dreams, anger... .), but when the pain of holding on is far greater than the pain of letting go, I am ready. The unknown becomes less scary than the known. Off of the cliff I jump, into the abyss with the calm and confidence that I am on a journey and I will find mySelf where I am. I always have. I have arrived. I am home.

This quote is good for me:

“I am leaving you for me.

Whether I am incomplete or you are incomplete is irrelevant.

Relationships can only be built with two wholes.

I am leaving you to continue to explore mySelf: the steep, winding paths in my soul, the red, pulsing chambers of my heart.

I hope you will do the same.

Thank you for all the light and laughter that we have shared.

I wish you a profound encounter with yourself.” ~ Peter Schaller

You were right, emergent, when you said you should have the love and compassion afforded to all things. Spot on. Nobody can give that to you, but You. It is not that you are entitled - it is that you deserve that kindness.

I agree with William; get a well-vetted sitter (you are not a bad mother for taking care of your needs), and do what you need to do in order to Self-nurture. You need no permission.

Anyway, that's my 2-cents!

[emergent]

I'm not too sure about the quote function here. I hope this is clear.

If I understand right, you are saying that your codependent traits latched on to some aspects of Buddhism, like the teachings about anger?  My mother has said on numerous occasions that her beliefs are like Buddhist acceptance and equanimity... .but I think they are more like resignation.  Not the same thing.

No, they are not the same thing at all. They are closer to opposites than they are similar. I made the same mistakes as your mother, confusing the two.

1) What is the difference between feeling anger, and taking action based on anger?

The answer is rather obvious: that feeling it is just a feeling, and taking action is an action. The difficulty lies in distinguishing the two. I have not let myself feel anger very much for a long time now, except in the past 6 months or so. I have never had a vendetta against my anger, though; it just kind of happened that I repressed it. My ex has zero tolerance for my emotions, and I couldn't handle hers, so I tucked mine away so as not to aggravate her. I'm not anti-anger, though. I grew up with a psychologist mother, became a psychologist myself, and always knew the importance (at least for others) of anger. It's the difference between knowing it intellectually and feeling it that has been my major problem. That psychologist mother of mine had a very low threshold for anger tolerance, too, and unlike me, she married a very passive (repressive) person, my father. I did not learn conflict management or ways to deal with anger as a child, at least not through experience. I don't really know how to take action based on anger, now that I can feel it.

2) What would happen if you accepted feelings of anger and just observed them?  Noticing the attributes of the sensations... .thoughts or storylines that they are connected to... .what do you observe?

I have been trying to do this through my meditation practice for close to 20 years. It has only recently (in guided antar mauna meditations) brought some truth to my mind. Anger never surfaced before, and now it does. At first, it was impossible just to observe, as the sensations were so intense they became physical. I very nearly vomited, I passed out once, I regularly had some incredibly unpleasant physical manifestations of my reactions to this feeling. I got through that phase, and have moved to a more neutral view of my anger, most of the time. It is there, it is neither positive nor negative, and I notice how it's just my mind giving it these valences. If I give it the time and space, it ends up appearing empty, really. There's no substance there.

3) You described the thoughts and feelings building up in you prior to breaking the glass on the floor, and you feel some unease around the fact that you "externalized" anger.  You say you felt better afterwards, though.  Is there more to observe/explore there?  

I don't actually feel uneasy about it. What makes me uneasy is that my ex, who was just outside when I broke the glass, is now (and I should have expected it) wielding the weapon of "who knows what you could do to the kids." But aside from that particular consequence, I am pretty satisfied with the glass breaking, especially in hindsight. I was not so sure a few minutes after the incident. Now, it's all good.

Was anyone harmed by your actions?  How would you feel about the possible perspective that breaking the glass was the minimal harm that could be done in the situation based on your strong feelings?

No one was harmed, but there was this consequence of my ex's reaction. She now lords it over me and asserts her right to protect the kids from me.

Is externalizing anger always the most harmful course of action?

No. So much has been turned inward that I know how harmful that can be.

Do you think there might be some situations where it is best to contain anger and be mindful about it, and others where expression of anger might be more beneficial?

Yes. Thank you for this.

[eeks]

I'm not too sure about the quote function here. I hope this is clear.

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[Grey Kitty]

When it comes to religion, I don't tend to claim one most of the time, but Buddhism is the most likely one for me to mention if I did. I find that Buddhist practice has always been very valuable to me when I actually DO it. My teachings have mostly been oral from a Theravada tradition out of Burma. Anyhow, I'm happy to comment on Buddhism as I see it applying here.

First off, yes, compassion applies to yourself as much as it does to anybody else.

When I think of the five precepts, not killing / not harming others comes to mind.

That doesn't mean being a doormat or an emotional punching bag, even if the other claims that they are hurt/harmed should you stop doing this!

Also on the Buddhist practice side of things, wanting to "be a perfect Buddhist" isn't actually good practice... .for example, getting angry at your ex over the child care crap she's throwing at you... .

My understanding of the practice would be that you should accept and notice that you have these feelings toward your ex at this time. (Be they anger or shame or whatever.)

Believing that if you were properly enlightened, you wouldn't have these feelings, and then going through a bunch of other crazy feelings, aimed at yourself (like more guilt or shame) for not being a proper Buddhist is not the right path.

I would say that becoming aware and mindful that you DID go down that rabbit hole of beating yourself up for not being a proper Buddhist when you got angry would sound like good practice, though... .if that makes sense.



On the relationship side of things, and since you are living with her and sharing child care with her, you ARE in a relationship, regardless of how broken up you are otherwise, I've got a bunch more practical suggestions, perhaps more suited to the staying board, but here is a $.02 to get started, and I would note that what we call Radical Acceptance on these forums is very much like Buddhist practice... .

1. Accept that your ex is going to be petty and manipulative about childcare, and use it to control you in any way that you cannot simply take her out of the equation. Especially the first times you try things.

For example, if you want to go out, expect her to come up with a way to refuse to care for the kids, or make a stink about things. Consider hiring a baby sitter for that time. (If you can structure it so that the baby sitter doesn't have to be in the house with your ex and the kids together. Otherwise, it will still get blown up somehow. Unless the baby sitter has amazing boundaries and knows exactly how to deal with pwBPD. Maybe even then.)

2. When your ex gets emotionally/verbally abusive, immediately remove yourself and your children from her presence. Every time.

Actually that should be your first priority--because any time you try to assert yourself for anything, she will immediately escalate to that kind of verbal/emotional abuse aimed at you... .if you can't cope with it well, she's going to pull it out every time and get you to cave in again.

[emergent]

I believe the Buddhist philosophy is to lose your ego, to accept life as is, and therefore you feel you should not get angry? Getting angry is a result of attachment which you shouldn't have?

I think it is fairly common among Western Buddhists to make the same mistake I have made, which is to equate acceptance of life as it is in the present moment with acceptance of all kinds of hardship that could be avoided for the future if we just took action. Another major mistake of mine (and I believe many Buddhists) is to confuse compassion with self-denial. It is very clear in all of the teachings that true compassion includes and indeed begins with oneself.

Do you think the Buddah himself would have remained calm if he had a BPD wife threatening his kids?

Lol! Maybe he did. He left them very shortly after his son was born.

You are justified in seeking time for yourself. That is not selfish - that is taking care of yourself. Just like you could donate all your money to charity, or use it to take care of yourself.

I like this analogy; it makes lots of sense. What person in their right mind gives away their last pennies?

As for the care arrangements, if your partner is unwilling to commit to a schedule, then I would be saying:

   - I will go out X nights per week.

   - I would prefer if <partner> was able to care for the kids on those nights

   - if not, I will employ a sitter

   - this is part of you looking after yourself.

It so happens that I am leaving her, and this is her house. She doesn't want a sitter here. It's a very frustrating situation. I'm far away from my family, but there are two homes I know I can bring the kids to if needed, where they are in good hands. I am also not big on going out, except for these days, since "home" is not much fun! But since I wrote here on Wednesday, I have managed to assert that we will now alternate weekends and whether she likes it or not, I will consider myself free every other weekend to go out if I choose to. Either she takes care of the kids or I bring them to a friend/babysitter's.  

[Grey Kitty]

I believe the Buddhist philosophy is to lose your ego, to accept life as is, and therefore you feel you should not get angry? Getting angry is a result of attachment which you shouldn't have?

I think it is fairly common among Western Buddhists to make the same mistake I have made, which is to equate acceptance of life as it is in the present moment with acceptance of all kinds of hardship that could be avoided for the future if we just took action. Another major mistake of mine (and I believe many Buddhists) is to confuse compassion with self-denial. It is very clear in all of the teachings that true compassion includes and indeed begins with oneself.

Indeed. I would say that this kind of thing actually is being attached to the idea of non-attachment, and then getting angry about it!  (And I find that when I laugh at myself for doing things like this, it usually bodes well for my practice!)

[emergent]

Anger is usually fear and hurt. You are also human. Be kind to the frightened you.

You are absolutely right. When I threw that glass, I was so angry, and beneath my anger was a whole lotta pain. Perhaps fear, too, but this is an emotion I have not yet come to fully feel.

[Eyeamme]

It is scary dealing with my true emotions. Maybe the same is true for you. I have had to be numb (even to the point of disassociation) to get through many circumstances with my 34 yo uBPD daughter. It takes work and a safe environment to work through this stuff.

[Grey Kitty]

Anger is usually fear and hurt. You are also human. Be kind to the frightened you.

You are absolutely right. When I threw that glass, I was so angry, and beneath my anger was a whole lotta pain. Perhaps fear, too, but this is an emotion I have not yet come to fully feel.

All this sounds very much like the path my teacher described herself going on. First she had horrible issues with being sleepy while meditating. After months, or perhaps years, she started finding anger. After spending some time with the anger, she found other emotions like hurt or fear underneath it.

And she said that the sleepyness was her way of protecting herself--she wasn't ready to face the anger, so by drifting off, she didn't have to experience it and face it. And later, the anger protected her from experiencing the hurt... .until she was ready to face that.

She also repeated that the biggest thing you have to do in mindfulness meditation practice is just show up and sit. Even if you do find yourself nodding off or getting lost in anger, instead of staying mindful as you intend to. The practice works. And I believe it--I don't quite understand how, but my experience is the same--when I do the practice, good things come of it. Even if I can't explain why they do.

[emergent]

1. How do I feel in his presence: drained or alive? drained

I spend as little time with my exBPDw as possible nowadays, and I have found an incredible renewed energy in myself. When I'm in her presence, the answer is clearly drained.

2. Does he always have my best interests in mind? Often? EVER? I am going to say hardly ever, if ever. He does not check his own motives

No, not always. Not often, either. But sometimes, she really does try. In these cases, she begins with rage and all the reasons she's against my "best interests," then hours or days later all of a sudden I will be granted "my way," even though I had accepted not getting it. It is crazy-making, but I know there is some good intention there.

3. Does he belittle me when I share your feelings? Attack when I am vulnerable? of course!

Oh, yes. Feelings are not ok if they're mine. Attacks are heightened when I'm already feeling hurt.

4. Does he make promises and never follow up? is water wet?

All the time. I'm not sure I can even say she ever has followed up on a promise of her own accord. Actually, there are fewer promises now, which may be thanks to her therapy.

Was I really angry at him, or at mySelf for insisting on being where I did not belong? I pondered that and it was me that I was angry at.

I feel angry at exBPDw. She has caused me an unbelievable amount of pain.

when the pain of holding on is far greater than the pain of letting go, I am ready.

I am ready, too. I am stuck in this house, and I wrote why in another thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289172.0 but if I could, I would so be outta here.

[emergent]

It is scary dealing with my true emotions. Maybe the same is true for you. I have had to be numb (even to the point of disassociation) to get through many circumstances with my 34 yo uBPD daughter. It takes work and a safe environment to work through this stuff.

Yes, I believe that. I have some safe environments I can go to, but no home base. I wonder if I will be fearful when I have the space to feel fear... .I've never been particularly anxious, but they say fear is underneath all expressions of anger. These days I am quite angry. I am very attuned to all the pain behind the anger, but I really do wonder about fear. Have I repressed that? I guess I'll see.

[emergent]

All this sounds very much like the path my teacher described herself going on. First she had horrible issues with being sleepy while meditating. After months, or perhaps years, she started finding anger. After spending some time with the anger, she found other emotions like hurt or fear underneath it.

No, my path has been very different. To begin with, I had the opposite tendency: an agitated (yet not anxious) mind that never once fell asleep in 15 years of almost-daily sitting or even more recently, lying-down meditation (yoga nidra). Now, in the past 5 years or so, I have found a happy medium between agitation and sleepiness, one that allows me to be mentally very peaceful but the peace is infused with a vibrant kind of energy. Also, I have never been detached from emotional pain. It's just fear that I have not really found. Of course, I've had moments of anxiety in my life, but nothing remarkable.

The practice works. And I believe it--I don't quite understand how, but my experience is the same--when I do the practice, good things come of it. Even if I can't explain why they do.

The practice works, absolutely. For me, it's more the difference between a regular, disciplined practice and a once-in-a-while activity. For me, it works only when I am disciplined about keeping it up daily. It's a mental habit of noticing and being aware, and if I let the practice on the cushion slide, the application of it off the cushion slides, too.

[Grey Kitty]

The part I was comparing was how your mind does things to protect you from emotions you aren't ready to face yet, by distracting you with something else... .not the specific things that my teacher experienced which kept her from facing her anger initially.

When you said you weren't able to feel or experience anger, and described the powerful physical reaction you had to it while meditating, and your experience of breaking the glass out of anger. It sounds like you went to numbness instead.

And I do agree about the importance of consistent practice. I've had one or two times I did regular daily practice, and that helped me a lot. Most of my progress came during long retreats (Two 10-day vippassana retreats, and a couple shorter ones)

It is good to be reminded about daily practice again. I've been out of it for a while.

[Suzn]

My best friend is Buddhist and we both tend to follow the same philosophy, I would identify as a Taoist if pressed.  

As you know, Buddhism is centered around mindfulness, compassion and forgiveness. In my experience, therapy and recovery is as well.

In the Buddhist philosophy we can't be compassionate with others if we can't be compassionate towards ourselves first. We have to acknowledge we are human and have a full range of emotions that are ours to experience. They are all gifts and have a purpose. In the Buddhist philosophy allowing yourself to feel and explore anger is absolutely ok, as you and GK have suggested it's what you do with that anger that's in question. I know my best friend well and if I posed the question of "was it my ego that caused me to throw a glass?" Her response would likely be "can you forgive yourself?" Being "perfect" in exercising our beliefs, in our recovery or in anything else is ego.

So I'll ask you, can you forgive yourself for throwing a glass? Can you extend compassion to yourself?

My therapist on the other hand would remind me "Suzn, you are not perfect and you never will be". If I had a nickel for every time she's said this I'd have a couple dollars in change.  

My therapist would also recognize that I had repressed my anger and hurt to the point that the result was throwing a glass. She would remind me that we all have our limits. That my cup was empty (that I was emotionally depleted) at this point and I need to find ways to take care of myself in order to "refill" my cup. So how do we take care of ourselves?

Reading through this workshop has been very helpful to me. It talks about our feelings of fear, obligation and guilt.

PERSPECTIVES: What does it mean to take care of yourself?

but I really do wonder about fear. Have I repressed that? I guess I'll see.

A good exercise to explore this question in your situation might be to ask yourself if you would feel fear if you made the decision to spend the day away from home without explanation to your exgf? For example, if you were to only say "I'll be out for the day tomorrow with the children. I'll see you back at home tonight" with no further explanation. What feelings would this bring up in you?

[emergent]

I am actually starting to do this (leave the house with the kids with no explanation). I think I was probably very afraid of doing it for a long time, though.

There is also a question of respect for the human being that is my ex-wife (btw I need to call her my ex for my own sake, even though no official procedures have begun in our separation). She is very scared of losing the kids, as she has no legal claim to them, and as someone with very high anxiety and BPD she expects the worst. They truly are hers, in the realities of daily life and our family history. But she most likely (we don't talk much anymore so I can't confirm) thinks that I am going to bring the kids to another country and never let her see them again. Maybe obviously, my sense of obligation here is really huge.

[emergent]

I have accepted and appreciated the glass-throwing side of me. 

[Suzn]

There is also a question of respect for the human being that is my ex-wife (btw I need to call her my ex for my own sake, even though no official procedures have begun in our separation). She is very scared of losing the kids, as she has no legal claim to them, and as someone with very high anxiety and BPD she expects the worst.

Absolutely. This says a lot about you. My suggestion was only a thought exercise in exploring your feelings. I suspect you actually doing this might help ease the anxiety when and if you do separate. However, if you chose to stay, wouldn't this be helpful in building a little interdependence for both of you? It sounds like your fear on this front have diminished a bit. Could this work in other areas?

I have accepted and appreciated the glass-throwing side of me. 

namaste   

[emergent]

I suspect you actually doing this might help ease the anxiety when and if you do separate. However, if you chose to stay, wouldn't this be helpful in building a little interdependence for both of you?

Do you mean independence? I'm not sure I understand. But I am leaving her, and that is my final decision, as final as final can be.

It sounds like your fear on this front have diminished a bit. Could this work in other areas?

I don't really feel fearful. I am excited for when I can build a new life far away from BPD, even if I know it will be really difficult in several ways. Is that fear? It doesn't feel like it. There is no dread whatsoever.

Hmm, but do I fear my ex BPDw? I worry about how she will react to things, yes. I organise what I say and do to avoid certain reactions. Less now, but it's still necessary. She is capable of turning anything against me or the kids, and holding it against us with a vengeance. I still need to tread carefully to protect myself and my children. The worst part is that I have to make the kids tread carefully, too. No, actually, the worst part is that to some degree they have learned to do it all by themselves. They are 8 and 6. I guess this is fear, even if I don't feel scared per se.

Can I work on making this fear diminish? I don't know. It's a question of protection. It's kind of like my kids and I are being chased by a tiger (actually it's almost exactly like that), and if we have no fear, we have no reason to run, or climb a tree, or whatever needs doing to get away from a hungry tiger. Maybe I have fear. Maybe I want to hold on to it.

[emergent]

My daughter (8), who to my knowledge was fully unaware of the glass-breaking incident, had a wonderful dream last night (her own words). We'd gotten a machine that turns broken glass, which is sharp and threatening, into something new and beautiful. It's so much like what happened to me, without the machine, that I can't help but feel how connected she is to me. In the dream, she was joyfully breaking things made of coloured glass in order to see the beautiful coloured things that would come out of the machine. I haven't taken the real-life situation that far - I'm not planning to break anything else - but there's some kind of transformation happening here, and it's beautiful.

[Grey Kitty]

Can I work on making this fear diminish? I don't know. It's a question of protection. It's kind of like my kids and I are being chased by a tiger (actually it's almost exactly like that), and if we have no fear, we have no reason to run, or climb a tree, or whatever needs doing to get away from a hungry tiger. Maybe I have fear. Maybe I want to hold on to it.

For me, fear went away as I realized that I could protect myself from most of the bad behavior and survive the rest of it. And the more often and the sooner I exited abusive situations, the more my emotional feeling self lost the fear. That was behind intellectually knowing the same things.

That works for you, but not the kids.

I know you are speaking metaphorically here, but the idea of your children being chased by a tiger hit me in a bad way.

You have an obligation to protect those children from abusive behavior, and that is more important than maintaining a relationship between them and your ex. Your desire to do both is excellent, but I hope you are clear on which one you will drop for the other.

[Suzn]

I suspect you actually doing this might help ease the anxiety when and if you do separate. However, if you chose to stay, wouldn't this be helpful in building a little interdependence for both of you?

Do you mean independence? I'm not sure I understand. But I am leaving her, and that is my final decision, as final as final can be.

Yes. Interdependence is healthy in a relationship, it's respecting there is a you (and your life), a me (and my life) and an us (our shared life, one that compliments each other).

It sounds like your fear on this front have diminished a bit. Could this work in other areas?

I don't really feel fearful. I am excited for when I can build a new life far away from BPD, even if I know it will be really difficult in several ways. Is that fear? It doesn't feel like it. There is no dread whatsoever.

You had mentioned that you did fear spending a day away without explanation in the past and that has lessened. 

Hmm, but do I fear my ex BPDw? I worry about how she will react to things, yes. I organise what I say and do to avoid certain reactions. Less now, but it's still necessary. She is capable of turning anything against me or the kids, and holding it against us with a vengeance. I still need to tread carefully to protect myself and my children. The worst part is that I have to make the kids tread carefully, too. No, actually, the worst part is that to some degree they have learned to do it all by themselves.

This is concerning. Have you been practicing communication skills found here on the Improving board? You plan to allow visitation so you will be in contact on a regular basis even after the split so these will still be necessary. It sounds like you and your children have been walking on eggshells, how have you and your children coping with this? Are you working on ways to counter this?

[emergent]

You have an obligation to protect those children from abusive behavior, and that is more important than maintaining a relationship between them and your ex. Your desire to do both is excellent, but I hope you are clear on which one you will drop for the other.

I hope so, too.

BPDex is verbally and emotionally abusive to me sometimes, but she is far less so with the kids. I worry about where her anger will be directed when I am gone, yes (hey, there's some fear there) but I am pretty sure it will never be thrown at the kids like it is sometimes at me. I have seen her dysregulate in the general direction of her mother several times, one of her sisters once, and our kids maybe a half dozen times. It was all for me daily for about two years until I made the decision to leave.  :'(

It may sound like excuses, but those kids love her to death, and she does her very best for them.

[emergent]

This is concerning. Have you been practicing communication skills found here on the Improving board? You plan to allow visitation so you will be in contact on a regular basis even after the split so these will still be necessary.

Yes, I do my very best to practice good communication using all the tools I have amassed over the years. I am trained in nonviolent communication, and have learned a lot about right speech from my Buddhist studies and practices. Thank goodness I have these external sources of wisdom. I can't imagine what life with a BPD would be like if I had no such tools. I'm not perfect, though; it's very hard work validating and empathizing with someone who is communicating so violently and causing me so much pain, and I'm not successful every day.

It sounds like you and your children have been walking on eggshells, how have you and your children coping with this? Are you working on ways to counter this?

It became a way of life for me even before the children came along. It only intensified as time went on, until about a year ago, when many things came together to make me take stock and come to terms with everything that was wrong with my relationship. Yes, I am working on it. I feel I have already come a long way, but I know there's still lots of work to be done. As for the kids, they have their different personalities and deal with their other mother in different ways. During episodes, one of them tends to try her best to protect and comfort me, and the other tends to run away to his room and escape into his books. But thinking about it now, I don't think they really walk on eggshells around her themselves, especially my daughter.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm relieved to hear that she is a good mom, and especially far far better than she is/was as a partner.

And I'm glad to hear they don't walk on eggshells too much around her. This, BTW, is one more reason to really work on doing better that way yourself--they are learning how to be an adult and be in a relationship by watching the two of you. And they will learn both what to do and what they want to avoid doing this way.

They have seen plenty of abusive behavior already. They will see more. You cannot stop your partner from doing this.

You do, however, have an excellent opportunity to model how to respond to such behavior for them. Do it right!

I don't know if you post on the Improving/Staying board. If not, I recommend it--as support to work on your boundaries with her while you are living under the same roof with her. You don't have to stay in your romantic relationship to be there, and you will find that the senior folks there can help you a lot.

[emergent]

Thank you GreyKitty. I haven't been there for a while. You're right, though, it would probably be the right place to be at this time, even if I'm not staying much longer with BPD ex.