The four day weekend update

[Scopikaz]

Well. We did go on the four day whirlwind weekend. We drove four plus hours to North Carolina. The drive was great. Conversation. Laughter.  Like old times.  She called me babe like she used to at one point then caught herself.  We checked into hotel. Ate dinner. Then retreated back to room.

I got a room with two double beds.  We wound up in same bed though but nothing happened. I just held her and we laid close together like we always did. We seemed to both enjoy it.

Friday we did a tour of the area attractions. Then drove four more hours to see her children the next morning (children she doesn't have custody of she lives 7 hours from them).

That night her and I stayed in a B and B, but this Time it was sexual both that night and the next morning.  She kept saying she didn't want to hurt me. That it doesn't mean we will get back together. Etc

We did quick shopping for her sons bday gifts.  Yes. She knew it was his bday, yet literally had to scramble to buy something at last minute which of course I paid for bulk of.  How sad is that?  Oh and when she gave him the gifts, she also had a gift for her daughter.  She gave both of them a smart talk phone I think. But said she couldn't afford to activate it but would when she could soon. Again. How sad is that? 

But we had a great day.  Sunday drove back home.  She became emotional over not having children. And Other things. Failed relationships. Etc.

Spent night in hotel near our destination.  Again it became sexual. 

So let's see. Had great time. Sex three times. Intimate night the first night.  Said she had a great time. Yet pains her to think about relationship. 

[vortex of confusion]

It is good that you had a great time. How are you feeling about all of this?

One of the patterns that I have seen in my stbx is that he wants all of the benefits and rewards but doesn't want to do the work involved in getting them. They see what other people have and want it but don't realize how much work is involved in making stuff happen. He sees my relationship with out kids and gets jealous and gets mad at how they interact with him yet he can't see that I spend a lot of time talking to them, checking in with them, and listening to them. I don't think it is possible for them to understand how much effort some people put into relationships, kids, etc.

[Scopikaz]

Good point.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Scopi-

So vortex asked:

How are you feeling about all of this?

and you haven't answered.  What's next for you?  Are you going to try and get back together, stop everything entirely, or somewhere in between?

[Scopikaz]

Well.  I neither want to be with her more or less than before the trip. Which is good I guess. I went with no expectations or illusions and even though a good weekend overall, it showed how selfish she can be.  As two examples it was her sons birthday.  We were to pick him

Up at one.  She didn't buy gifts until two hours before.  So she was frantically trying to find gifts. and of course I helped and both came up with ideas and helped to pay.

Second she didn't get to see her children at Christmas. And while she got most of the gifts to them. She forgot to give them two of the gifts.  A smart talk phone for them. She gave them each a phone but told them they aren't activated yet as she hasn't been able to activate yet because of money.

So in both cases how difficult to have made time to shop or save for her children's sake.  Talk

About poor priorities and choices. If she won't do better by her children who she clearly loves. How would she treat me? 

So anyhow. The direction. I know I need to end things. Right now we have two more things scheduled. I'll probably do those then back off totally

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

I think a reality check is in order here.  Sorry to be blunt but I simply cannot see how this weekend trip in any way assisted with your recovery from the chains of a toxic partner.

You say you know you need to end things - so why are you ignoring your own need?

[Rmbrworst]

Whether you realize it or not, you are carrying on a relationship with this person so it's not really an ex romantic partner at this point.  It's an active romantic partner.  

My concern is (and I'm almost 100% certain of this), is that your BPD is using you to fulfill her need to be attached to someone and be validated.  I've heard people with BPD (in their respective forums) state that they will literally use a person that they no longer have feelings for, to feel "whole".  

One of those people who made that statement was my exBPD.

My opinion is that if you continue to go on these excursions, then they will never end, and you'll end up caught up, used up, and devastated.  "I don't want to hurt you, this doesn't mean we will get back together."  Is her way of absolving herself from any responsibility if (when) a fallout occurs.

I would suggest you take this particular situation up on the "improving relationship" forum, but her statement shows ... .There's no true relationship to be had.  Just one of narcissistic use and abuse.

I say this with love.

[Visitor]

I may be playing devil’s advocate here but she is single, you are single. Whether she is using you for supply or not it sounds like she is being up front and honest about it. She doesn’t want to have a full on monogamous relationship but she wants to have a hug at night, somebody to have a trip out with and some good sex to top it off. Isn’t that a great scenario?

The chances are she will meet another guy for a relationship or maybe even a hook up but if you can detach yourself from that you could go on about your life and she will be back. No harsh words exchanged, no shouting or blaming. You can just say you are cool with that and if and when she wants to see you again you can have a great time together with some great sex once again.

If you think a bit more radically about your situation you have a good thing going. She is obviously torn between wanting to satisfy her own need and not wanting to lead you on so this is a great opportunity for you to set the parameters and assure her you aren’t looking for a repeat of the past.

You may not have her all to yourself but have some fun in the windows of opportunity the disorder provides.

[Infern0]

I might end up getting flamed for this, but I actually think you have/had a pretty solid chance of getting her back, but you maybe lacking in some seduction skill.

I mean if she's in bed having sex with you but saying "this doesn't mean we are getting back together" you should have just laughed and said "sure, sure" and laughed it off.

I kind of think you may be in your head too much, its clear you DO want her back despite what you are saying, and I think you are in a good position if you just relax, back off and don't give off sfuffocating vibes

just my 2 cents

[Visitor]

I might end up getting flamed for this, but I actually think you have/had a pretty solid chance of getting her back, but you maybe lacking in some seduction skill.

I mean if she's in bed having sex with you but saying "this doesn't mean we are getting back together" you should have just laughed and said "sure, sure" and laughed it off.

I kind of think you may be in your head too much, its clear you DO want her back despite what you are saying, and I think you are in a good position if you just relax, back off and don't give off sfuffocating vibes

just my 2 cents

I think what InfernO is saying is dont be needy. It's a turn off. The more you demoonstrate you do not need a person the more you will attract them.

This isnt about playing games. It must come from an authentic place within you.   

[Infern0]

I might end up getting flamed for this, but I actually think you have/had a pretty solid chance of getting her back, but you maybe lacking in some seduction skill.

I mean if she's in bed having sex with you but saying "this doesn't mean we are getting back together" you should have just laughed and said "sure, sure" and laughed it off.

I kind of think you may be in your head too much, its clear you DO want her back despite what you are saying, and I think you are in a good position if you just relax, back off and don't give off sfuffocating vibes

just my 2 cents

I think what InfernO is saying is dont be needy. It's a turn off. The more you demoonstrate you do not need a person the more you will attract them.

This isnt about playing games. It must come from an authentic place within you.   

yeah and it is easier said than done especially in codependent-BPD relationships., i've fallen prey to the neediness demon a few times and it helped send my relationship down the pan

easier said than done but you do get better results if you can cut that out

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

Unfortunately it is what it is.  You took her away - put her up in a nice hotel and bought her children gifts and provided some pleasure in the bed.  She has made it clear a relationship is not on the agenda.  You are now an orbiter for her to use as and when she pleases.  Time to look within, search deep and begin recovery. I am sorry but I think you need to heed this message otherwise there will be no freedom forthcoming.

[JaneStorm]

You are now an orbiter for her to use as and when she pleases. 

This is so interesting. I have seen this type of phrase throughout the boards. My BPDexbf would refer to his cadre of women as satellites orbiting... .I'll be damned.

[Scopikaz]

Yes. I do want her back.  I know it flies in the face of reason and logic.  But love and emotions and matters of the heart are never easy.  I realize it's probably not a good idea and I'm

Trying to play the tape out in my head - say she did come back.  It would likely end again. And it would likely involve more pain depending on how far it reached. 

I think I will still do the musical this Friday and concert next month. At least that's how I feel now.  And if she meets someone then it may all be a moot point anyhow. 

But some here have suggested down the road if I lie low she may or will try to come back.  I find that so hard to believe. She's beautiful and I'm surprised she hasn't met someone yet. But when she does I think they too will fall in love and so it will likely last a long time for them too.

I see one of two paths for her.  She's hanging out in bars now.  With new friends on Facebook. Men and women honestly who look like players or bar flies. So I think she will either spiral out of control.  DUI. Unwanted pregnancy.  In need of financial help.  Etc. 

Or she will meet someone either at bar or maybe someone half way decent through where she works.  And she will be married in six months to a year. 

Not sure which is more likely.

[Scopikaz]

And why do some here think she will try to get back. When right now she is totally opposed to it. To the point she says she can't even come to my house

[JaneStorm]

And why do some here think she will try to get back. When right now she is totally opposed to it. To the point she says she can't even come to my house

Imagine a way in your life's path, without her in it. What do you see?

[Infern0]

Yes. I do want her back.  I know it flies in the face of reason and logic.  But love and emotions and matters of the heart are never easy.  I realize it's probably not a good idea and I'm

Trying to play the tape out in my head - say she did come back.  It would likely end again. And it would likely involve more pain depending on how far it reached. 

I think I will still do the musical this Friday and concert next month. At least that's how I feel now.  And if she meets someone then it may all be a moot point anyhow. 

But some here have suggested down the road if I lie low she may or will try to come back.  I find that so hard to believe. She's beautiful and I'm surprised she hasn't met someone yet. But when she does I think they too will fall in love and so it will likely last a long time for them too.

I see one of two paths for her.  She's hanging out in bars now.  With new friends on Facebook. Men and women honestly who look like players or bar flies. So I think she will either spiral out of control.  DUI. Unwanted pregnancy.  In need of financial help.  Etc. 

Or she will meet someone either at bar or maybe someone half way decent through where she works.  And she will be married in six months to a year. 

Not sure which is more likely.

Good.

You have to start being honest with yourself.

As for what might happen, you have no control over that, the sooner you accept that the only person you can control is you, the better it will be.

[cosmonaut]

Do you think she may have been feeling obligated to have sex with you?  I can't know either way, but it's setting off major red flags for me.  You were paying for the trip.  You arranged to stay in the same room.  She has BPD.  pwBPD often feel obligated to please people, especially by offering themselves up sexually.  It's just a concern I have reading this story.  It's possible she may have seen this in a very different light than you have.  I suspect there will be deep resentment about this.  That's my gut feeling.

What was your goal in all this, Scopikaz?  What are you looking for here?  I'm having trouble seeing that.

[apollotech]

But some here have suggested down the road if I lie low she may or will try to come back.

Scopikaz,

Her coming back is not the problem. Keeping her from leaving again will be the problem and/or you being able to tolerate her behavior. Why do you think the relationship would go any differently this time around? You say that you love her, I get that, but that didn't make any difference the first time around. If your ex is afflicted with BPD, that will come back with her as well.

[Caley]

And why do some here think she will try to get back. When right now she is totally opposed to it. To the point she says she can't even come to my house

If you don't mind me adding to the mix Scopikaz ... I think you are giving far too much credence to what she 'says' and not enough attention to what she 'does'.

I can answer your question, as to why so many people here say she'll come back, with an analogy.

Think of you as being a mine ... and she as a miner. Can you do that?

OK, good. She has stumbled across this mine with rich and thick veins of goodies. There is quite a lot of unconditional love, affection and acceptance. There's money too ... and when things go wrong for her there is this magic fixer upper there to fix things ... !

Miners do not like to expend too much energy extracting juicy minerals (TNT ... works well but it is costly and could backfire). So, how much energy does she need to expend to extract these things from you?

Not much ... why? Because you've taught her well ... how best to extract the things she wants from you using the principles you have taught her.

She does know that sex with you works ... but this doesn't require too much effort and, hey, she gets to enjoy that too.

A sob story here, a sob story there and Mr. Fixer reaches for his toolbox, fires up his drill and begins mining for her and on her behalf. Wow ... ! This is effortless ... so easy ... yum yum ... !

'This doesn't mean I want to get back together ... !' Well, Scopikaz ... she's in bed with you and having sex with you ... my scorecard says that that is being together. But only when it suits her.

If you want her ... and I believe it is quite evident that you do. Then, give her what she's asking for. What is she asking for? No relationship ... so give her no relationship. No relationship, no sex, nadda.

That is the acid test. If, somewhere in her cold, dark and clammy heart, she really does have sincere feelings for you ... she'll change her tune and start to invest in the mine instead of raping it of all its riches.

If she's using you she'll ramp up her effort for a while to see if that pays off but quickly resort to least effort for return. If this is the case, eventually, you'll see the truth and go in search for an investor, now all the more experienced in how to spot a miner.

Best regards.

PS. Do you want a date? Just kidding ... <Grin>.

[fromheeltoheal]

Nice analogy Caley, that rocks!  Pun intended... .

And why do some here think she will try to get back. When right now she is totally opposed to it. To the point she says she can't even come to my house

Speaking BPD, borderlines are impulsive, a response to emotions that are too strong and no way to deal, so do something to make them feel better, right now.  Plus a borderline hates to lose an attachment, any attachment, a replaying of that earliest bond with their mother.  So if she gets a feeling that what she once had with you is gone, and she's having current emotions she can't soothe, you may show up on her radar as a possible soother, if nothing else the soothing of knowing an emotional attachment is still in place with you.  So she may try, and you'll either bite or you won't, and you probably aren't the only old attachment in that same boat, so she can spread it around.

There's another piece too: I was like you in that I wanted the real deal with my ex and knew she just couldn't go there, didn't have the skills, but I was denying it.  And her impulsivity would show up as having sex with random strangers, which she would then feel ashamed about, and being with me, just looking at me, would trigger that shame, and that would drive her away from me, none of that communicated BTW, and it wasn't until I'd left and got some distance that it became clear what was going on.  Obviously, there was nothing for me there, and accepting was the biggest and really only challenge.

So what do you want?  Her aside, if you were living the life of your dreams, what would that look like?  What would you be doing, who would you be with, who would you be becoming?  Does she have any place in that vision?  I don't mean some idealized fantasy version of her, I mean the real her, is she going to be a positive addition to your life exactly the way she is?  Act accordingly.

[Scopikaz]

Honestly could I see a future with her. Yes I could. Do I want one with her. Yes I do.  Could it be good?  I think knowing more about her emotional issues than I did. Yes it's possible. I don't know why I feel I still love her and want a life with her. It's crazy I know. But actually I wrote this last night and need to try to remember it :

God. I've seen her true colors now I think. She loves her children yet lost them. She loves her children yet won't move closer to them.  She loves her children yet has done nothing towards trying to get them back.  She loves her children yet won't be stable for them. She loves her children yet loves hanging out at Bars more than saving money to buy Noah gifts and go see him for his birthday.  She loves her children yet bought gifts that I mostly paid for only an hour before going to see them.  She loves her children yet doesn't set a good example for them. She loves her children yet doesn't take them to church when they are here or teach them more about God. She loves her children yet loves herself and her partying more.

And if that's how she is with her children. How would she be with me. 

But the heart wants what the heart wants.

[Caley]

Honestly could I see a future with her. Yes I could. Do I want one with her. Yes I do.  Could it be good?  I think knowing more about her emotional issues than I did. Yes it's possible. I don't know why I feel I still love her and want a life with her. It's crazy I know. But actually I wrote this last night and need to try to remember it :

God. I've seen her true colors now I think. She loves her children yet lost them. She loves her children yet won't move closer to them.  She loves her children yet has done nothing towards trying to get them back.  She loves her children yet won't be stable for them. She loves her children yet loves hanging out at Bars more than saving money to buy Noah gifts and go see him for his birthday.  She loves her children yet bought gifts that I mostly paid for only an hour before going to see them.  She loves her children yet doesn't set a good example for them. She loves her children yet doesn't take them to church when they are here or teach them more about God. She loves her children yet loves herself and her partying more.

And if that's how she is with her children. How would she be with me. 

But the heart wants what the heart wants.

Then enter knowingly ... at your own risk ... and accept all that is coming knowing that you have chosen this. You must accept full responsibility ... she's been pretty up front, honest and has shown you what you're getting if you go any further ...

I wish you well my friend but I wouldn't want to spend one minute in your shoes.

[Scopikaz]

Except there's no entering into anything. She's been clear. We have these last two things planned and after that I don't plan on asking her to anything else and she won't ever contact me. She will meet someone or hopefully I will.   And if she does she's attractive. Funny. Charming. So she will either be married or in seroious relationship quickly.  Or she will spiral down hill.  I just don't see any possibility of ever getting back together. So I think it's a non issue.

[fromheeltoheal]

She loves her children yet won't be stable for them.

You state that as if she's got a choice.  BPD is a mental illness, traits of which include unstable and chaotic interpersonal relationships and impulsivity; she experiences those things because of that incurable illness and couldn't stop it if she tried.  Speaking standard borderline here, apply as applicable.

But the heart wants what the heart wants.

Yes, and sometimes the heart and head disagree as to what's best, they do in your case, so there's an opportunity to follow your head, even though your heart protests, and eventually your heart will align with your head, a much more holistic place where peace and contentment can be found.  Or not, up to you, but you do sound like you know what you'd be signing up for with her.  You might visit the Staying, Undecided and Saving boards too for some insight into how folks are dealing with ongoing relationships with borderlines.

[Visitor]

We have these last two things planned and after that I don't plan on asking her to anything else and she won't ever contact me

Good. It sounds like its all sorted then  

End of topic.

[Caley]

Hahahaha ... .!

Visitor,

Whoever you are ... I love you.

Fabulous way to put an end to a circular conversation. You are a star.

[apollotech]

She loves her children yet won't be stable for them.

You state that as if she's got a choice.  BPD is a mental illness, traits of which include unstable and chaotic interpersonal relationships and impulsivity; she experiences those things because of that incurable illness and couldn't stop it if she tried.

Scopikaz,

I think this is a lot of your problem with the whole heart/head thing: You never disengaged from this woman in order to get a clear, cognizant undetstanding of what you're actually dealing with, a person with a mental illness. Simply put, the FOG never cleared for you. Your statement quoted above, at least to me, is a clear indication of that fact. Echoing FHTH, she cannot turn her mental illness on and off like a light switch. She doesn't control it; it controls her.

As other posters have stated, and as I stated earlier, her coming back is not the problem---she is back. I think you have very unrealistic expectations of what a relationship with her is actually going to be. There won't be a magical moment in which afterwards everything will be peachy. She's never going to just snap out of it and be the person that you expect her to be. That's not going to happen.

I don't advise people to go or stay. We're all adults here and we all make our own decisions. Unfortunately, many of us don't want to accept the consequences of our decisions. I think that's where you're at. You want her back, but under your terms, which, IMO, are unrealistic.

I left the relationship that I had with my BPDexgf after eight months and two recycles. Were there consequences to my decision, absolutely. I very much loved her. It hurt to walk away. My decision turned my world on its head for a while. I missed her. I missed her in my life, good or bad. On top of that, I knew I would be dissolving a very old and long friendship with her. My emotional self did not want me to go; my rational self told me that there was no other choice but to go or stay and accept the relationship as it was---not how I wanted it to be. Simply put, be honest with yourself and have realistic expectations of what you'll be getting into if you stay or leave. Accept the consequences of either decision.

[cosmonaut]

Fabulous way to put an end to a circular conversation. You are a star.

We are all working on healing and sometimes that is not a linear path.  If you'd prefer to not be a part of that process, then perhaps you could find another thread?  Criticisms like you are making aren't helping anyone.

[Caley]

Sounds like a public put down Cosmonaut?

Validate the invalid.