Complaining about the CE (again)

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Our CE started in July of 2014.

Here is the email thread last April where we submitted our final statement: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275633.0

Here is my last thread from June of last year where I was complaining about waiting: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278693.0

Here is the thread from last September where we updated the CE because the case was stale: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=282863.0

And here we are. February 2016. No report.

DH is trying to do the "right" thing by not bugging the CE but come on, this is ridiculous. I finally convinced him that he should give her a call and that was two weeks ago. She didn't return his call. He sent her an email last week. No reply to the email.

What the poop is going on?

[Thunderstruck]

Our CE started in July of 2014.

Here is the email thread last April where we submitted our final statement: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275633.0

Here is my last thread from June of last year where I was complaining about waiting: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278693.0

Here is the thread from last September where we updated the CE because the case was stale: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=282863.0

And here we are. February 2016. No report.

DH is trying to do the "right" thing by not bugging the CE but come on, this is ridiculous. I finally convinced him that he should give her a call and that was two weeks ago. She didn't return his call. He sent her an email last week. No reply to the email.

What the poop is going on?

[livednlearned]

Can you file a motion to compel?

[Nope]

Yeah there is a limit, and this had clearly crossed that limit, by anybody's standards. I agree with LnL that filing a motion at this point is the only way to go. The CE is being unresponsive and it's been well over a year. Meanwhile the toll this protracted process is taking on the family (including the child who must have met the CE and at least know some decision about her living arrangement must be in the works) is absolutely inexcusable.

We are past the whole "don't make the CE mad because they control your future" thing. This person has taken a bunch of your money and, since she won't even respond to requests for communication, she has run away with it. I'm not even sure why your L has let this go on this long without offering some potential solutions.

[Thunderstruck]

I'm sure the L hasn't pushed because we're out of money. He wants another retainer and we just don't have it right now.

This long drawn out process has cost us thousands, and literally nothing has been accomplished! Our L has racked up $3000 since August and has not filed a single thing in court. I'm not happy about that either.

Is the CE going to expect more money to appear in court to testify?

[Nope]

Is the CE going to expect more money to appear in court to testify?

Yes, time spent in court on your case for any reason is billable. But I don't know what excuse she could give a judge as to why a CE is taking so long. I'd like to think the the threat of an impending court date to explain herself would light a fire under her to get it done before that day actually comes.

There were also months where our L wasn't doing anything we requested where we got charged almost $1k for what came down to sorting through things and putting them in filing cabinets. That always aggravated me. Maybe you could look into filing your own motion to compel rather than paying an L to do it. It doesn't have the same heavy lifting as going up against BPDm's L because all it requires is a written request and a court date. Though you do have to give BPDm's L notice that you made the request since she has an interest in the matter.

I've found that Family Court is a lot like car repair. There are probably a whole bunch of small things we could fix ourselves without a professional if we educate ourselves and if we weren't so intimidated.

And I'll level with you: I don't think you'll be getting a report out of this CE at this point unless and until you become the loudest squeaky wheel. I highly doubt your report is the only one that's been on the back burner.

[Thunderstruck]

There were a lot of positive reviews of the CE, but I just found a negative one a few weeks ago. Someone commented "turn around of reports sinful" at the beginning of January. I don't know what this CE is doing. We checked her professional facebook page and she was testifying for a case in Alaska last month (note: we live in about as far from Alaska as you can get while still being in the US).

BPDmom is pro se, if that makes any difference. It's nice using the L to deal with her, because it's more professional and better documented. She begrudgingly responds (mostly, sometimes).

Can you file motions yourself if you have a L assigned? For some reason I thought that was a "no no".

[livednlearned]

Was the CE court-ordered? I wonder if there is a special motion/emergency hearing to withdraw her services and transfer to someone else. This would at least light a fire under her, and get the problem in front of the judge.

All of this costs so much money  :'(

I really feel your pain on that point, Thunderstruck.

[Nope]

Things are so different from state to state. If she is pro se I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take an action pro se. But it's best to at least check with an L about that. If it were me I'd call an L's office and say that I was thinking about going pro tem (getting help on the side from an L, but showing up by myself) and I wanted to know if it's possible to go with an L and then decide later to go pro tem or pro se for different actions in my case. "If I hire you, am I stuck without being able to continue my action during a period of time where I can no longer afford you?" seems like a pretty fair and straightforward question.

If you don't have a retainer with your L then that shouldn't mean your hands are legally tied until you do. But that's me saying that and I'm not an L and depending on where you live there may be rules set up just to keep the money flowing into the Family Law system.

[bravhart1]

Ok so you know I HAVE to chime in here

Last week we began our second CE with the same guy as last time. He will have our new report the second week of March according to him. So we will have done two complete CE's in less time than you got one. Whiskey, tango, foxtrot?

Questions: have you paid this person in full your part?

                Has BPDm? Are you sure?

What if you sent her an email or certified letter better yet, requesting your money back? You paid for a report you never got.

It is TOO LATE for any of the interviews, documents, or tests to be valid any longer. I'm sure of that.

Call the licensing board in your county and ask to speak to someone who monitors therapeutic licensure. File a report and formal request into your refund. This CE can not possibly think this is appropriate in any way to take this long.

I would not consult BPDm about any of this, but I would begin looking into finding a new CE with your lawyer. I get it money runs out, but they can't leave you high and dry in the middle of a CE, your attorney has a ethics board too

I'm also so sorry you are still dealing with this, but get proactive. If I was your judge I would be looking at you and DH and saying "why did you wait so long to bring this up? We assumed things had gotten better, etc."

The CE in our case did NOT testify, he gives a report and that gets given to the judge and that gets worked out what he will put in, leave out, with your and BPDms approval, judge works as tie breaker. They mostly go with report. Only reason for CE to testify is if BPDm says CE is a liar and/or got it all wrong, she can request a trial to cross examine CE to show judge the holes/errors in report, ( just like our BPDm did, but judge right on the spot said, do you have $50,000 for a trial, she said no and he said then figure out how to make this work.)

Do not be afraid to rock the boat, you are 100% in the right to do all these things. Your CE is not performing ethically or responsibly, she has left a family in crisis in a custody dispute holding the bag for over a year. HOW COULD  ANYONE SEE THAT ANY OTHER WAY? It's unconscionable.

[Nope]

... .TOO LATE for any of the interviews, documents, or tests to be valid any longer. I'm sure of that... .

The CE in our case did NOT testify, he gives a report and that gets given to the judge and that gets worked out what he will put in, leave out, with your and BPDms approval, judge works as tie breaker. They mostly go with report. Only reason for CE to testify is if BPDm says CE is a liar and/or got it all wrong, she can request a trial to cross examine CE to show judge the holes/errors in report, ( just like our BPDm did, but judge right on the spot said, do you have $50,000 for a trial, she said no and he said then figure out how to make this work.)

I think it depends on the CE's relationship with the judges if the judge will agree it's too late for the interviews, etc to be considered current and actionable. If the judge said they were not then that would absolutely be throwing the CE under the bus. That would be saying the report you paid for that you just got was useless and so you had paid all that money for a useless report. Putting that in writing could lead to some very big problems for the CE.

In our case we had a court date set (though it did have to be moved once because the GAL wasn't finished with her investigation) and so there was a hard deadline for when we were going to court if BPDm was unwilling to agree to the GAL's recommendations. BPDm doesn't have to come to the negotiating table. Even with a completed CE in hand she can simply do nothing until the court date.

I like the idea of a certified letter asking for a refund since the work was not completed. It's at least a food first step before filing with the court. It shows another attempt to work the situation out prior to bringing it to the court's attention. It doesn't have to be threatening. Just matter-of-fact.

[Thunderstruck]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot indeed!

We asked for the CE and we had to pay for it all. I think it was an initial $10k retainer, a ~$5k replenishment, and I think around this time last year we gave another $3k for her to finish the report.

We used to get monthly statements from the CE and it would show what work had been done and how much money was spent. We haven't received a statement in about a year.

Do not be afraid to rock the boat, you are 100% in the right to do all these things. Your CE is not performing ethically or responsibly, she has left a family in crisis in a custody dispute holding the bag for over a year. HOW COULD  ANYONE SEE THAT ANY OTHER WAY? It's unconscionable.

This is what makes me nervous. Does she not think we're a family in crisis here? Does she just think everything is going along swell? Is she thinking "Oh, I have 'real' abuse cases to worry about, not these squabblers"?

You can bet that she's getting a bad yelp review.  

[bravhart1]

In his book Conducting Child Custody Evaluations, Philip Stahl makes a very good case for why any time frame that lapses over six to nine months should be grounds for a re-investigations into behaviours  and current events. A lot can happen in child custody cases, especially with borderlines. Kids go through different phases, and developments heck even thunder wasn't even pregnant yet when this started, adding a whole new person to the family is a major change that needs to be factored in.

How can she submit a recomendation to the court without almost two years of history included?

When we did our last CE, BPDm was trying delay tactics, and the CE and our attorney both officially informed her ( after only six weeks) that if she did not finish her testing and interviews that she would need to be financially responsible for the retesting and reinterviews of everyone involved as they would be getting outdated.

[Thunderstruck]

In his book Conducting Child Custody Evaluations, Philip Stahl makes a very good case for why any time frame that lapses over six to nine months should be grounds for a re-investigations into behaviours  and current events. A lot can happen in child custody cases, especially with borderlines. Kids go through different phases, and developments heck even thunder wasn't even pregnant yet when this started, adding a whole new person to the family is a major change that needs to be factored in.

How can she submit a recomendation to the court without almost two years of history included?

When we did our last CE, BPDm was trying delay tactics, and the CE and our attorney both officially informed her ( after only six weeks) that if she did not finish her testing and interviews that she would need to be financially responsible for the retesting and reinterviews of everyone involved as they would be getting outdated.

DH and I weren't even married yet when the order for the CE was granted.   So in all this time we got married, got a temp CO, became pregnant, had the baby, uBPDbm moved, now we're moving, and I think BPDmom has burned through three jobs. Yeah, BIG changes.

We've updated the CE as we've gone along. She has always said we could submit more but it "probably wouldn't change her recommendation". I mean... .if there is a person with a long-standing pattern of BPD behavior, then submitting more examples of BPD behavior probably won't really make much of a difference.

uBPDbm delayed with the CE too. That was part of the initial delay. But everything past a year ago (when CE had all the information and our final statements) is on her (the CE).

I asked DH to call the CE again today and if they say "Oh she'll call you back" then I said set up an appointment with her to talk. I mean, if this were my evaluation, I probably would have gone down to her office in person to talk to her and waited there until I did. DH is much more passive.

We have deadlines but the CE has blown past them several times. We've gone to the court three times to extend the deadlines. The last time was last April, and the CE was supposed to have been completed within 60 days.

I really want this all wrapped up before SD goes to middle school in August. It's time for us to be able to just live our lives.

Once we get the report the deadlines say we have 30 days to file a parenting plan, 45 days to finish discovery, 80 days to complete mediation, 90 days to attend a pre-trial meeting, and 100 days to submit pre-trial statements. So if we got the report tomorrow, it looks like 3 months until trial. Ugh.

[Thunderstruck]

One thing we would want to review and update, though, is our parenting plan. We submitted our proposed PP to the CE in ~Aug 2014 before the 50/50 temp CO and have found some areas that could definitely use improving.

uBPDbm submitted a PP that detailed each day that SD would be with her and with us, but it only went from August 2014 until May 2015.    The schedule was erratic, and before we had a temp CO uBPDbm wouldn't even follow it. 

[ForeverDad]

I've read here of year-long evaluations and 100+ page CE reports.  It shouldn't take that long and probably doesn't need to be a book either.

My experience... .Our CE was a child psychologist (my lawyer suggested and her lawyer deferred) and my lawyer warned me about him, that he could recommend against me, saying court viewed him like god and never contested his reports.  I said, Proceed.  The court allotted 4 months but it took 5 months, my ex was a certified medical|legal interpreter but insisted on answering the tests in the other language forcing the CE to ask for another month and find an interpreter.

The report was just over 10 pages.  The summary was so concise but spot on:  "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother should immediately lose her temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails then Father should get custody."

Well, court did nothing but schedule the next step.  Upon arrival at court on Trial Day stbEx finally declared she was ready to settle after 21 months of obstruction and delays in the divorce case.  So we tried Shared Parenting with me as Residential Parent (by my insistence, both lawyers claimed it didn't mean anything) but the entitlement and control continued.  A year and a half later I filed for custody and the court ruled the prior CE, previously sealed unused, was too old (legal term was stale) and could not be used.

[livednlearned]

Since she has a lot of power here, it might also be worth contact the professional association, or talking to another CE and ask them how best to proceed.

My PC swung the case with three sentences in less than 10 seconds.

I would not want to piss off someone who has that kind of power, even if she is so badly loafing here it makes me mad and it's not even my case.

If the court finds her at fault of bungling things so badly, I would also worry that the judge says "do another CE."

What a mess. I'm so sorry.

[ForeverDad]

If you do end up with more delays for whichever reason, try to get another interim order expanding on the prior one, patching any loopholes she found and addressing the school/residency issue.  "Your honor, in planning for the upcoming school year DH asks to be declared Residential Parent.  Mother moved outside the school/district on or about (date).  If Residential Parent, DH is prepared to move to her current school/district or to a better school/district."

[Thunderstruck]

DH and I weren't even married yet when the order for the CE was granted.   So in all this time we got married, got a temp CO, became pregnant, had the baby, uBPDbm moved, now we're moving, and I think BPDmom has burned through three jobs. Yeah, BIG changes.

uBPDbm just got fired (again). Now she's on to the fourth job since this CE started. 

(we also found out she was giving alcohol to a 17 year old that she used to work with. UGH!).

DH called the CEs office last week. They said she wasn't in the office yet. He asked to set an appointment. They said they would call him back. No call.

[Nope]

He'll need to call again. Most likely she sets her own appointments.

[Thunderstruck]

We got an email from the L on Friday. They finally got ahold of the CE. She said she was out with a family emergency, would work on it over the weekend, and we should see something this week.

I won't hold my breath, but it would be really cool if the report finally came. 

[Nope]

We got an email from the L on Friday. They finally got ahold of the CE. She said she was out with a family emergency, would work on it over the weekend, and we should see something this week.

I won't hold my breath, but it would be really cool if the report finally came. 

Wasn't the excuse six months ago "personal issues" or something? This woman is a walking disaster.

I hope get something this week. But remember nothing will happen with whatever you get until you go to court with it. I really don't think she'll settle and even if she does she'll drag it out as long as she can first.

[bravhart1]

So I don't suppose you've heard anything about a custody evaluation?

You may have forgotten about it,  I know it's been a few years since you started it... .

BH

[Thunderstruck]

So I don't suppose you've heard anything about a custody evaluation?

You may have forgotten about it,  I know it's been a few years since you started it... .

BH

Le Sigh... .

Good thing I didn't hold my breath, I would be VERY purple by now.

I sent another note to the L this morning "reminding" them that we were supposed to have the report two weeks ago. Let's see what the newest lie from the CE will be.

[livednlearned]

Do you think your L needs to step up more?

My L would've been all over this, trying to help me figure out how to make it work in my favor if at all possible.

I don't mean to add any stress to your situation by implying your L is not acting professionally, only that it seems like the problems are systemic here.

It seems like any conclusion drawn up by this CE would be suspect after so much time has passed, causing you (most likely) to incur more costs, whereas the CE has no repercussions at all, and same with your L.

I'm so, so sorry you're going through this. I feel ticked off on your behalf.

[bravhart1]

^^ I have to say, I agree. This report is so overdue its professionally useless. I suppose if it's good for you then try to use it, but jeez, she has put you in a very precarious position. If BPDm doesn't like it, ( which is bound to happen) then she has plenty of reasons to get it thrown out and ask for another. The kids might be adults by then

I think your attorney should file something with the court to ask for a different evaluator and ask for your money back. Jmho

You know I am completely in support of you and all you do no matter what.

[Thunderstruck]

Hey, guess what I just found out!

Our CE is in the middle of a divorce!

She filed in July 2015. They're working out a temp timesharing right now.

::grumble grumble grumble:: 

[bravhart1]

Sounds like her personal problems are becoming yours. I believe that's a no-no in therapy?

Can you get your attorney to request another CE? I mean what's the actual date your CE was begun?

[Nope]

*grumble*

Somebody aught to ask her how she would feel if a CE was holding up an evaluation for her kids like this.

If you do decide to see if you can get your money back and a new CE assigned I'd ask that the CE pay the full cost of asking the court for this, since she had a professional obligation to make sure this situation didn't happen. At any time she could have filed a motion and gone in front of the judge herself to say she couldn't carry out her duties. Instead she kept taking your money and gave nothing in return.

[livednlearned]

Thunderstruck,

Are you feeling like this justifies the long wait? And if she's going through a divorce, are you assuming that means you'll get the CE report when she's done... .divorcing?

[Thunderstruck]

Thunderstruck,

Are you feeling like this justifies the long wait? And if she's going through a divorce, are you assuming that means you'll get the CE report when she's done... .divorcing?

No way! If I told my boss "Sorry, I didn't do this analysis because of our custody case" I would have been fired! We received the court order appointing her in mid-July 2014 (the week we got married) and we paid her initial retainer as soon as we got back. It's been 20 months. I'll forgive the first ~8 months or so because uBPDbm was being difficult and wouldn't schedule appointments, but the rest is on the CE. She told us last April that she had everything she needed and it would take her 40 hours in 2 weeks to write the report.

I am BEYOND angry right now. My blood is absolutely boiling. I told DH that he should be the one to talk to the L because otherwise I'm gonna rage out BPDbm-style.    How could the CE not even come and talk to us? How could she let SD be in a poopy situation for so long and not at least try to work with us to improve it a little? I understand that your personal life falling apart sucks hard, because HELLO we've been living it for the past few years, but there's no need to drag everyone else down with you!

Plus we have spent THOUSANDS in fees to the L to extend due dates and in constant status update calls and emails. Ugh, it makes me nauseous.  

The stale-ness of the report I can pretty much overlook, because uBPDbm's pattern of unstable destructive behavior hasn't changed in however many years. But now I'm questioning whether a woman going through a divorce (and letting that divorce affect her professional obligations) can remain unbiased towards a dad seeking full custody.

We've just had it. We're done. We are fed up with the "you should have something in a few days" lies. We're going to tell the L to look at other options.