Is this denial? What am I missing?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi.   

I've been away for a while and I see lots of new names here so I will give a brief summary of my background.  I recently turned 50, am unmarried (which is fine with me), and the daughter of an uBPD mother and a ?PD father, both of who died in 1997 and 1998 respectively.  As a kid I was mostly split back but also was split white to the extreme so that even though the "white times" were rare, they really messed with my head.  I lived in my parents house until my late thirties only leaving for a few years for undergraduate and graduate school.  My mother was big into shame, mind games, projection, silent treatments that would last months, rages that scared me to the point of losing bladder control when I was little.  I spent a great part of my life in a state of mild dissociation, often observing myself and surroundings from outside of my body.  I was sexually abused by my mother until my mid to late 30's.  I was so caught up in the fog and convinced that there was something very very wrong with me and I deserved everything I got.  I was raised and groomed to put my mothers needs first and I was expected to stay single so I could care for my parents in their old age.  My father was aware of everything but was so scared of my mother that he really never tried to stop her with anything.  Instead he would beg me to be good, to make my mother happy and to keep the peace, all the while observing the things she did to me.  My mother alternated between encouraging me to be a stripper or a nun ... .not quite sure why but whatever.  I was called a whore, a liar, and was told I was violent so convincingly that I believed that I hit her on several occasions even though I had no memory of doing so (turns out those times never happened).  My mother kept a gun near by her to "protect herself from me" because she was scared of me and my rages.  The only rages I remember were in response to intolerable abuses and the deep hurt I experienced from her and the betrayal I had from both parents.

So yeah, I had a rough childhood that continued far into adulthood.  I get it.  I have issues of my own.  Was diagnosed with c-PTST and depression, have fear of intimacy and I tend to withdraw from people, or at least keep them at arms length.  I have improved greatly over the last 10 years or so though.  I filed for permanent disability back in 2013 and was finally approved in 2014 due to a very rare tumor syndrome, fistulas, type 1 diabetes, chronic pain and most recently, I was diagnosed with stage 4 liver disease (not related to alcohol or drugs).

So, back to the title of this thread.   A friend of mine who knows most of the health issues and only a small portion of the childhood issues has said on several occasions that I have bad luck, have a hard life and that she feels guilty because her life is so easy. (all her words and assessment, not mine).  She said it again when I told her about the stage 4 cirrhosis I have.  I always feel surprised when she makes these statements.  I understand that my life was not the norm and that I experienced quite a bit of trauma, but I have never compared myself to others and I have never really asked why the things that happened in my life happened.  I actually feel that I am very lucky in life.  Soo many things could have gone wrong in my life.  As a teen I was into drugs (pot and speed) but never the hard stuff and I was not an addict, I never stole, got in fights, I did not get pregnant and have 10 babies from 50 different baby daddies, I had a great education and a career that I love, I was never arrested, I never killed my mother even though I wanted to on several occasions, etc.  Even with the medical conditions, I think I am very lucky.  When it first started, I was told it was pancreatic cancer, then they said no it is adrenal cancer (even worse than pancreatic) I was told to get my affairs in order, etc.  By the time they figured out what it really was, it was a relief and while it has been a total pain in the butt, it is all doable.

So with everything, I am so grateful and I feel like I am very lucky.  so many times things get right down to the wire with total disaster just a nanosecond away, and everything turns out all right in the end.  I think part of my outlook is because I believe that I chose to be born into the family I had and that I chose to experience all of these things. 

On the other hand, I have started to pay attention to the reactions to others who are in my life as certain events happen.  It is not just one person who thinks I have had it rough either.  I am starting to question my outlook.  I am wondering if the gratitude I feel for the life I have had and the lessons I have learned is just a facade.  Is this denial?  lately I have been questioning a lot of things.  people say "you don't deserve this Harri", and I feel confused.  what does it mean to deserve something.  If something good happens, I deserve it but if something less pleasant happens then i do not deserve it.  I am confused because to me, the whole concept of deserving or not deserving somethings seems to be more in line with denial that what I am doing.

(I do not have many friends or people I share stuff with so when I say people I am talking about 2 or 3 friends who do not know the full story and a few doctors and nurses I see regularly.  I do not go around talking about this stuff... .well, except for here... .and sometimes I do whine about stuff here)

So am I missing something?  I have not wanted to ask my friends or doctors/nurses why they say such things because I am afraid I am going to get the "oh, poor you" crap and I have on occasion heard that... .it just makes me want to run so I prefer not to go there.  I also never want people to treat me differently with the health stuff or the childhood stuff.

Any comments?  Questions?

[Harri]

Hi.   

I've been away for a while and I see lots of new names here so I will give a brief summary of my background.  I recently turned 50, am unmarried (which is fine with me), and the daughter of an uBPD mother and a ?PD father, both of who died in 1997 and 1998 respectively.  As a kid I was mostly split back but also was split white to the extreme so that even though the "white times" were rare, they really messed with my head.  I lived in my parents house until my late thirties only leaving for a few years for undergraduate and graduate school.  My mother was big into shame, mind games, projection, silent treatments that would last months, rages that scared me to the point of losing bladder control when I was little.  I spent a great part of my life in a state of mild dissociation, often observing myself and surroundings from outside of my body.  I was sexually abused by my mother until my mid to late 30's.  I was so caught up in the fog and convinced that there was something very very wrong with me and I deserved everything I got.  I was raised and groomed to put my mothers needs first and I was expected to stay single so I could care for my parents in their old age.  My father was aware of everything but was so scared of my mother that he really never tried to stop her with anything.  Instead he would beg me to be good, to make my mother happy and to keep the peace, all the while observing the things she did to me.  My mother alternated between encouraging me to be a stripper or a nun ... .not quite sure why but whatever.  I was called a whore, a liar, and was told I was violent so convincingly that I believed that I hit her on several occasions even though I had no memory of doing so (turns out those times never happened).  My mother kept a gun near by her to "protect herself from me" because she was scared of me and my rages.  The only rages I remember were in response to intolerable abuses and the deep hurt I experienced from her and the betrayal I had from both parents.

So yeah, I had a rough childhood that continued far into adulthood.  I get it.  I have issues of my own.  Was diagnosed with c-PTST and depression, have fear of intimacy and I tend to withdraw from people, or at least keep them at arms length.  I have improved greatly over the last 10 years or so though.  I filed for permanent disability back in 2013 and was finally approved in 2014 due to a very rare tumor syndrome, fistulas, type 1 diabetes, chronic pain and most recently, I was diagnosed with stage 4 liver disease (not related to alcohol or drugs).

So, back to the title of this thread.   A friend of mine who knows most of the health issues and only a small portion of the childhood issues has said on several occasions that I have bad luck, have a hard life and that she feels guilty because her life is so easy. (all her words and assessment, not mine).  She said it again when I told her about the stage 4 cirrhosis I have.  I always feel surprised when she makes these statements.  I understand that my life was not the norm and that I experienced quite a bit of trauma, but I have never compared myself to others and I have never really asked why the things that happened in my life happened.  I actually feel that I am very lucky in life.  Soo many things could have gone wrong in my life.  As a teen I was into drugs (pot and speed) but never the hard stuff and I was not an addict, I never stole, got in fights, I did not get pregnant and have 10 babies from 50 different baby daddies, I had a great education and a career that I love, I was never arrested, I never killed my mother even though I wanted to on several occasions, etc.  Even with the medical conditions, I think I am very lucky.  When it first started, I was told it was pancreatic cancer, then they said no it is adrenal cancer (even worse than pancreatic) I was told to get my affairs in order, etc.  By the time they figured out what it really was, it was a relief and while it has been a total pain in the butt, it is all doable.

So with everything, I am so grateful and I feel like I am very lucky.  so many times things get right down to the wire with total disaster just a nanosecond away, and everything turns out all right in the end.  I think part of my outlook is because I believe that I chose to be born into the family I had and that I chose to experience all of these things. 

On the other hand, I have started to pay attention to the reactions to others who are in my life as certain events happen.  It is not just one person who thinks I have had it rough either.  I am starting to question my outlook.  I am wondering if the gratitude I feel for the life I have had and the lessons I have learned is just a facade.  Is this denial?  lately I have been questioning a lot of things.  people say "you don't deserve this Harri", and I feel confused.  what does it mean to deserve something.  If something good happens, I deserve it but if something less pleasant happens then i do not deserve it.  I am confused because to me, the whole concept of deserving or not deserving somethings seems to be more in line with denial that what I am doing.

(I do not have many friends or people I share stuff with so when I say people I am talking about 2 or 3 friends who do not know the full story and a few doctors and nurses I see regularly.  I do not go around talking about this stuff... .well, except for here... .and sometimes I do whine about stuff here)

So am I missing something?  I have not wanted to ask my friends or doctors/nurses why they say such things because I am afraid I am going to get the "oh, poor you" crap and I have on occasion heard that... .it just makes me want to run so I prefer not to go there.  I also never want people to treat me differently with the health stuff or the childhood stuff.

Any comments?  Questions?

[Kwamina]

Hi Harri

Great to hear from you again

I filed for permanent disability back in 2013 and was finally approved in 2014 due to a very rare tumor syndrome, fistulas, type 1 diabetes, chronic pain and most recently, I was diagnosed with stage 4 liver disease (not related to alcohol or drugs).

... .

Even with the medical conditions, I think I am very lucky.  When it first started, I was told it was pancreatic cancer, then they said no it is adrenal cancer (even worse than pancreatic) I was told to get my affairs in order, etc.  By the time they figured out what it really was, it was a relief and while it has been a total pain in the butt, it is all doable.

I knew about your health issues before. This new situation with the liver disease is quite challenging, yet considering what the doctors frist thought you might have, I can definitely see why you find yourself fortunate. It isn't easy at all to have to deal with health issues on top of the trauma inflicted by your parents. I hope this health situation will be manageable for you

So with everything, I am so grateful and I feel like I am very lucky.  so many times things get right down to the wire with total disaster just a nanosecond away, and everything turns out all right in the end.  I think part of my outlook is because I believe that I chose to be born into the family I had and that I chose to experience all of these things.  

I think I understand where you are coming from here and your perspective is very important for many children of BPD parents. Looking at life like this is one way to give meaning to our experiences and help us deal with what we've been through and are still going through. I think it also relates to the concept of radical acceptance presented by Dr. Marsha Linehan as she talks about accepting reality as it is, accepting that everything has a cause (we might not always know the cause but everything has a cause) and accepting that life can be worth living even with painful events in it.

On the other hand, I have started to pay attention to the reactions to others who are in my life as certain events happen.  It is not just one person who thinks I have had it rough either.  I am starting to question my outlook.  I am wondering if the gratitude I feel for the life I have had and the lessons I have learned is just a facade.  Is this denial?  lately I have been questioning a lot of things.  people say "you don't deserve this Harri", and I feel confused.  what does it mean to deserve something.  If something good happens, I deserve it but if something less pleasant happens then i do not deserve it.  I am confused because to me, the whole concept of deserving or not deserving somethings seems to be more in line with denial that what I am doing.

The point about deserving something is very important too. Dr. Marsha Linehan also talked about the very points you're making:

So when is acceptance hard?  Well, it's the hardest when you hate what's happening to you.  Or your really disapprove of it.  Or, it's causing you a lot of pain. So the bottom line is, the higher the pain, the harder the acceptance.

Let me give you an example.  You get married to a nice guy.  Then you discover this guy has lots of wonderful qualities that you had actually never noticed. He's completely different than you thought.  He's ten times more wonderful than you thought.  :)o you think that would be easy to accept or hard to accept?  Right!  Easy.

Well, let's take another case. You marry a guy, he's a nice enough guy. Now you're married.  You get to know him. And you discover he has lots of negative qualities.  In fact, he's got a lot of things about him that you had not known and you do not like. Easy or hard? Hard.

Now why do you think that is?  Why is it harder to accept really painful things? Generally, it's because secretly, somewhere inside us, we actually believe that if we refuse to accept something that we don't like, all we have to do is throw a tantrum or refuse to accept it.

People will generally find it way easier to accept or feel deserving of the good things in their lives. When good things happens it is very tempting not to even think about questioning 'everything has a cause' or 'why did this good thing happen to me?'.

It is natural for people to want to experience good things, yet can we really say we deserve good things to happen to us? Who decides what we deserve and who gets to experience the good things and who the bad things?

There is no denying that I too struggle with acceptance of the past, I however also clearly see that the things I've been through have in a way enriched me and given me the ability to empathize with others way more than I would have been able to do if I did not have those experiences. Also the tools I've learned to heal from the abuse and deal with disordered people, have proven to be invaluable life skills applicable to many different situations, not just situations with my disordered family-members. These tools in a way have given me a competitive edge and looking at them like this is also a way to give meaning to our experiences.

[Kwamina]

A somewhat belated happy 50th birthday to you Harri!    

We can host your birthday party online, drinks are on Turkish!

[Harri]

Hello there Parrot man!     Thanks for the well wishes, the birthday wishes and the drinks!    Since the drinks are virtual AND free (thanks Turkish!) you can count me in!  No real booze allowed here.  I think it is hysterical that I have craved beer and wine ever since the liver diagnosis!  Tell me I can't have something and right away I want it!  Sort of ties into radical acceptance (or lack of) doesn't it?

Looking at life like this is one way to give meaning to our experiences and help us deal with what we've been through and are still going through. I think it also relates to the concept of radical acceptance presented by Dr. Marsha Linehan as she talks about accepting reality as it is, accepting that everything has a cause (we might not always know the cause but everything has a cause) and accepting that life can be worth living even with painful events in it.

Thanks for relating this to radical acceptance as I can understand it better in that context and see it as a healthy coping skill.  I do get upset and I do stress out about the health stuff but it is what it is.  Not a darn thing I can do about any of it (well the binge eating is certainly a problem with the liver but... .I am a work in progress  ) so many of us have health issues and I know you too can relate.  Stress is such a huge factor in health issues.

Why is it harder to accept really painful things? Generally, it's because secretly, somewhere inside us, we actually believe that if we refuse to accept something that we don't like, all we have to do is throw a tantrum or refuse to accept it.

I've never seen this quote of Dr. Linehan.  Refusing to accept reality is certainly a set up that will lead to more pain. 

I worry about this a bit though.  Is it possible to use acceptance or what appears to be acceptance as a defense mechanism rather than a coping strategy?  am I over thinking things here?  Am I making sense?  My questions here tie into you next statement:

People will generally find it way easier to accept or feel deserving of the good things in their lives. When good things happens it is very tempting not to even think about questioning 'everything has a cause' or 'why did this good thing happen to me?'.

I have had a lifetime of thinking I deserved bad things, taking on a sort of martyr stance in life.  Sacrificing myself because others are more "deserving" or because I can handle consequences better, or because I am inherently flawed.  For example, two of my high school friends, sisters, were killed in a car accident.  I remember grieving their loss but also thinking that it should have been me because they were so good while I was not.  That is just one example of me thinking I deserved (there is that word again!) bad things.  So is my acceptance of my life events and what others think of as being bad and more just another way of thinking I am flawed and therefore deserve to experience all that I have?

I am confusing myself here ... .and giving myself a bit of a headache! 

Who decides what we deserve and who gets to experience the good things and who the bad things?

Excellent question.  I think we do choose our lives on some level so maybe 'deserve' has no part in this?  I also believe that the experiences we choose to have in life are to teach us necessary spiritual lessons.  So in that sense who defines what is good and what is bad?  (Haha!  What if I am taking this discussion to a place where I do not have to think about this nebulous "deserve" business?) 

There is no denying that I too struggle with acceptance of the past, I however also clearly see that the things I've been through have in a way enriched me and given me the ability to empathize with others way more than I would have been able to do if I did not have those experiences. Also the tools I've learned to heal from the abuse and deal with disordered people, have proven to be invaluable life skills applicable to many different situations, not just situations with my disordered family-members. These tools in a way have given me a competitive edge and looking at them like this is also a way to give meaning to our experiences.

I agree.  You certainly do seem to be very centered and strong and to have reached a hard-won place of relative peace.  I am grateful for the lessons you have learned and the compassion, empathy and wisdom that you have shared so generously with me. 

Thank you. 

[Kwamina]

Yes, only virtual 0% alcohol drinks here!

I've never seen this quote of Dr. Linehan.  Refusing to accept reality is certainly a set up that will lead to more pain.

It's from the full article on radical acceptance we have here which is actually a written transcript of one of her talks:

Radical Acceptance by Marsha Linehan, Ph.D.

I worry about this a bit though.  Is it possible to use acceptance or what appears to be acceptance as a defense mechanism rather than a coping strategy?  am I over thinking things here?  Am I making sense?  

You are making sense, well at least to me  I think what you are talking about is a form of acceptance that perhaps isn't totally radical acceptance. When radically accepting I think it is important to accept the reality of everything, also of our own negative feelings and thoughts. Considering what you've been through and are dealing with, I think it is natural to feel anger, frustration and sadness. Acknowledging and accepting what your parents did to you and your current health problems, while not also acknowledging any anger, frustration and sadness you feel, would basically only be a partial acceptance of reality. I sometimes use the word acknowledgement instead of acceptance. Radical Acknowledgement of reality also means radical acknowledgment of all your feelings and thoughts about the difficult things in your life. That can be quite hard though when you are dealing with topics such as abuse and significant health issues. It can be very hard acknowledging what we really feel and think about these things, also because we might be uncertain or scared that we won't be able to handle all our real thoughts and feelings. Do you feel like you are able to radically acknowledge the full spectrum of thoughts and emotions you have concerning the way your parents treated you and the health issues you are experiencing?

I have had a lifetime of thinking I deserved bad things, taking on a sort of martyr stance in life.  Sacrificing myself because others are more "deserving" or because I can handle consequences better, or because I am inherently flawed.  For example, two of my high school friends, sisters, were killed in a car accident.  I remember grieving their loss but also thinking that it should have been me because they were so good while I was not.  That is just one example of me thinking I deserved (there is that word again!) bad things.  So is my acceptance of my life events and what others think of as being bad and more just another way of thinking I am flawed and therefore deserve to experience all that I have?

Losing your friends like that is horrible and very traumatic. You have always been conveyed the message that there was supposedly something wrong with you. This was all a projection stemming from your mother's disordered mind. Yet since that reality was all you knew, you unfortunately internalized that negative message. Separating yourself from that negative projection can be very hard. When children have to deal with a negative projection like this from day 1, day in and day out, you could say you never even really get the chance to develop a real you separate from any projections. That makes it hard to distinguish the real you from the 'bad' projection. In a way almost like looking in a mirror and not being able to distinguish the reflection from reality. You think you are looking at a reflection of who you really are while in reality what is being mirrored to you is a projection, a distorted version of reality. Yet if you've never been able to see yourself without all those projections, you might not even really know what the real you looks like. When that happens even if you are becoming aware that the projection is a distortion of reality, you might still cling to the one thing you do know, the false projection of you being bad.

Do you feel like you've ever really been able to mourn the loss of your two friends who died in such a tragic way? How did your mother react when your two friends died, what did she say to you?

Excellent question.  I think we do choose our lives on some level so maybe 'deserve' has no part in this?  I also believe that the experiences we choose to have in life are to teach us necessary spiritual lessons.  So in that sense who defines what is good and what is bad?  (Haha!  What if I am taking this discussion to a place where I do not have to think about this nebulous "deserve" business?)

I agree, the word 'deserve' can best be taken out of the discussion. Whether something is good or bad, it is what it is. As is said in mindfulness practice: "Accept each moment, each event as a blanket spread out on the lawn accepts both rain and sun, each leaf that falls upon it. Acknowledge the helpful, the wholesome, but don't judge it. Acknowledge the harmful, the unwholesome, but don't judge it."

The most important thing is probably not whether we classify things as good or bad, but that we deal with them constructively and try to make the best of life while fully acknowledging reality as it is.

[eeks]

Why is it harder to accept really painful things? Generally, it's because secretly, somewhere inside us, we actually believe that if we refuse to accept something that we don't like, all we have to do is throw a tantrum or refuse to accept it.

I've never seen this quote of Dr. Linehan.  Refusing to accept reality is certainly a set up that will lead to more pain. 

I worry about this a bit though.  Is it possible to use acceptance or what appears to be acceptance as a defense mechanism rather than a coping strategy?  am I over thinking things here?  Am I making sense?

I believe it is possible to use the philosophy or idea of acceptance as a defense mechanism against painful trauma feelings (my guess is anger and grief).  My mother claims to practice acceptance but I see it more as a premature amputation of her desire and of efforts towards what she desires, more resignation than equanimity.  And last year I dated/was friends with a man who survived some trauma as a child (and his parents had unresolved trauma) and he would be telling me about something that happened, and suddenly his tone of voice would change, his speech get faster, and he would say something like "It wasn't that horrible".  And I would feel inexplicably angry (which, looking back on it, may have been me noticing the sudden cutoff of emotional intimacy, or feeling angry on behalf of the child he was, or... .I was picking up on his unexpressed anger.)

It seems I can pick up on the body language and vocal changes of defenses.  uBPD ex used to float right up out the top of his head.  (dissociation?)  So, if I could sit with you and talk about it, I could probably tell if you were using acceptance as a defense    

Since that's not possible, I guess all I can ask is, do you think you are using acceptance principles to avoid emotions?  You may not know directly, so let's try for what I think might be indirect signs... .do you experience peace, well-being and contentment in life at least some of the time?  :)o you get "triggered"?  :)o you feel as though you experience current life situations "fresh" observing what is happening now, rather than uncontrollably through the filters of the past?  How about self-sabotage?  Anxiety/fear and shame?  :)o you tend to polarize blame, either blaming others or yourself, or do you find that blame is not a huge part of your thinking?

If you don't experience those things, or you do and you're aware of them and working through them, then I'd tend to lean towards, no, you're not using acceptance as a defense.

So is my acceptance of my life events and what others think of as being bad and more just another way of thinking I am flawed and therefore deserve to experience all that I have?

It's possible, I suppose, but what comes to mind for me here is, nobody really knows how they would handle the circumstances that befall someone else unless/until it happens to them.

So when people say how horrible what happened to you is, you didn't "deserve it" (as though there was someone somewhere making sure everyone's deserving... .) is that saying you "should" feel as they do, or are they judging your experience through their filter of someone who has never experienced it?

Excellent question.  I think we do choose our lives on some level so maybe 'deserve' has no part in this?  I also believe that the experiences we choose to have in life are to teach us necessary spiritual lessons.  So in that sense who defines what is good and what is bad?  (Haha!  What if I am taking this discussion to a place where I do not have to think about this nebulous "deserve" business?) 

I am glad you brought this up.  It is an idea I would never push on someone else (that risks "spiritual bypassing", you know the "it's all perfect" "everything happens for a reason" "karma" crowd), however it seems I and others have genuine experiences of insight around this.  I used to get Network Chiropractic, and had some experiences at workshops I can only describe as "spiritual", and this is what I knew.  Not thought, knew... .not "everything happens for a reason but that the universe is like a big set of interconnecting gears.  

I find I have difficulty integrating this experience into my life and remembering it in the midst of difficulties.  However, the main point that seems to be emerging from this, at least for me, is that it is for each person to make sense of their own experience.  Others can help, others can provide suggestions, but the best we can do for one another is to provide relationships where there is space and support for each to make sense of their own experience.

[Turkish]

Harri,

So glad to see you back, at the very least checking in. 

Have you thought of tossing the ball into the other court and asking, "what do you mean?"

My boss, who's known me for almost 24 years when I was just a pup, recently talked about how he was amazed I had done so well given where I came from. I don't have the multiple health issues which you have been going though (personal aside: you're a tough cookie), but I do have a physical disability. Though having known him for so long, it still made me feel uncomfortable. I said that I know that I could have done much better (self-deprecation combined with truth as I see it). I can't stand people complimenting me, especially within the context of people knowing some things about where I came from. Is it something like, "they wouldn't view me as being that great if they didn't [pity me] know some things?" 

The questions I ask myself are: "do I value myself apart from what I do for others," and, "do I see myself as having value despite or apart from my suffering?" The former, people in my life have admired me for, especially given my mother most recently. The latter, it makes me cringe to write the word "suffer."

Do we have a right to acknowledge our suffering? Do we have a right to validate our pain? What is the core trigger which elicits the emotion of dismssal or denial?

p.s. The Martinelli's is on me 

p.p.s. did the Board Parrot just triangulate me?

[Kwamina]

p.s. The Martinelli's is on me 

p.p.s. did the Board Parrot just triangulate me?

I did indeed! But don't worry, there is good and bad triangulation and this absolutely was good triangulation

[Woolspinner2000]

Hey Harri!   

So nice to have you pop back in!   I'm sorry for the continued physical distress you are in, but it sounds like you are coping well. I read your post and all the answers with great interest. ":)eserve" is a word I have often poured over myself. Every once in a while someone will say, "You deserve that" about something positive I did or received. I mentally stop dead in my tracks. ":)eserve? I've never deserved something good," I tell myself. "Other people may deserve it, but I don't." I've struggled with that one a lot. Typically I feel as if I deserve/expect the bad treatment, but that comes from the things which Kwamina mentions:

You have always been conveyed the message that there was supposedly something wrong with you. This was all a projection stemming from your mother's disordered mind. Yet since that reality was all you knew, you unfortunately internalized that negative message. Separating yourself from that negative projection can be very hard. When children have to deal with a negative projection like this from day 1, day in and day out, you could say you never even really get the chance to develop a real you separate from any projections. That makes it hard to distinguish the real you from the 'bad' projection. In a way almost like looking in a mirror and not being able to distinguish the reflection from reality. You think you are looking at a reflection of who you really are while in reality what is being mirrored to you is a projection, a distorted version of reality. Yet if you've never been able to see yourself without all those projections, you might not even really know what the real you looks like. When that happens even if you are becoming aware that the projection is a distortion of reality, you might still cling to the one thing you do know, the false projection of you being bad.

The word 'acceptance' can be easily substituted, and it does change the focus a bit for me, taking it away from the aspect of "I'm either good enough or not good enough." That's a positive step. If one would then say something about I should accept the good thing, you know, I'd still struggle because I struggle with being able to accept it, and it loops back around to the "I don't deserve this good thing." What a vicious cycle. I like what Turkish said,

The questions I ask myself are: "do I value myself apart from what I do for others," and, "do I see myself as having value despite or apart from my suffering?"

Do we have a right to acknowledge our suffering? Do we have a right to validate our pain? What is the core trigger which elicits the emotion of dismssal or denial?

I can so relate to these questions. Good food for thought. I am starting to learn though that I do for sure have value.

Wools

[HappyChappy]

On the other hand, I have started to pay attention to the reactions to others who are in my life as certain events happen.  It is not just one person who thinks I have had it rough either.  I am starting to question my outlook.  I am wondering if the gratitude I feel for the life I have had and the lessons I have learned is just a facade.  Is this denial?  lately I have been questioning a lot of things.  people say "you don't deserve this Harri", and I feel confused.  what does it mean to deserve something... .I am confused because to me, the whole concept of deserving or not deserving somethings seems to be more in line with denial that what I am doing.

So am I missing something?  I have not wanted to ask my friends or doctors/nurses why they say such things because I am afraid... .

Any comments?  Questions?

Hi Harri,

Great to have you back on the forum, I’ve missed your philosophical posts and your ability to put a positive shine on just about anything.

Also happy birthday.

We can host your birthday party online, drinks are on Turkish!

I guess that’s why the call it the hair of the dog.

Being dyslexic I read you first post and then  hid behind the sofa when I saw how much was said after that. So forgive me if I repeat other answers. But your point about others feeling guilty about your situation is a massive compliment, in my view. They sound like the have heaps of empathy, and we aren’t use to that from a BPD, so of course is sounds odd, but I would imagine it’s hart felt. Nursing and other caring professions logically attracts people with a great deal of empathy. So could they be saying these things to make you feel better ? Just that.

Also the point about deserving, isn't this how we kids of BPD are programmed, yet a BPD thinks along the lines of entitlement. But your point about denial is also interesting. I believe Freud stated some denial is healthy and some not, meaning that most human emotions have a use or they would have not evolved. So possibly its more a way of learning to use them in the right way. So you wonder if your positive spin is denial – so what if it is, question is does it serve a useful purpose ? Maybe it's more down to the fact that as kids were weren't enconraged to develop certain emotions, so when we see others who are, it doesn't seam real ? What do you think Harri ?

Didn’t know if comedy is you thing, but the follow sketch (you birthday present) demonstrates denial in the opposite direction. Monty Pythan enjoying  a “who had it worst” competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo



Happy Chappy

[steelwork]

Hi Harri,

I read your post and thought less about "deserve" or "accept" than "minimize".

Minimizing is a behavior associated with c-ptsd, right? My own background is way less extreme than what you describe (and no, I'm not minimizing when I say that  ), but I have a long history of making light of or jokes about some things that happened to me that everyone else, it seems, thought were pretty sad. At some point in my young adulthood I noticed I wasn't getting the laughs I expected from telling these stories. Well, I chalked it up to my family's exceptionalism (as I saw it). Because part of what made me feel my family was special was the fact that we were tough and had a crazy sense of humor... .and guess what: those beliefs were custom-built to mask my real feelings of hurt and anger.

I think the truth is a synthesis. I am proud of my toughness and ability to laugh off hardships, but I'm also growing more aware of how those qualities constitute something of a false self. The catch being that I like aspects of the false self.

So my question to you is: were there beliefs you grew up with that might get in the way of feeling the full force of your hurt and anger?

I feel that you would not have asked the question if there weren't something in you that says, yes, this is a defense.

That is my gut feeling.

[Harri]

Hi Kwamina, Turkish, Happy C, steelwork, Wools and eeks!  Thanks so much for responding.

I've been turning this round and round in my head.  Sorry for the delay in response.  It seems to be a pattern of mine with posts lately... .I start all gung-ho and then I just lose concentration.  My thoughts get all jumbly and I can't focus.  I can't tell if it is dissociation, fatigue or the fact that I have lost my marbles.  Happy C, you said you went and hid behind the sofa and I can relate.  I hid too... .and I am still hiding a bit.  I'm so glad you decided to come out and respond.  thanks.

I am going to respond as things pop into my head.  I apologize if I miss key points you think are important.  I can't go back and read right now, so feel free to direct me to key points you think I should focus on.

Okay.  I am not okay.  Not at all.  I am not accepting everything.  Somethings, yes, mostly.  The childhood stuff is mostly accepted.  What is still not accepted, though it is acknowledged, is that I have lost about 40 years of my life.  I keep reminding myself that I was caught in the craziness of my family until 12 years ago.  Not just involved with them, but actually still living with them, having my mother invade my boundaries, search my room, manipulate me, etc.  No friends, no support system, etc.  So I feel like I am more like in my early to mid 20's, yet I am 50.  That makes me sad and I feel overwhelmed.  I cringe away from that truth.  Yes, I still believe I chose this life and there were/are lessons I need to learn, but I think/hope there is more to come in my life.  I want more out of life.  

I have not accepted my health issues, at least not the latest with the stage 4 liver disease.  I am scared.  So far I have not had a follow-up with the liver specialist.  I am supposed to see him again in april.  My home nurses and the doctor and nurse I see at the wound clinic keep asking me if I am on the transplant list... .and I am like What the heck?  So confused, scared and a bit overwhelmed.  I don't think I am that bad yet or if I ever will be that bad.  I've been doing some reading but I have to take it slow.  I get so scared when I read about how toxins can build up and affect brain function.  I live alone.  I won't know if I am losing my marbles because I will have lost my marbles!  :P  So no, I am not accepting this and I can't even say I am acknowledging it (thank you for that distinction Kwamina!).  I keep alternating between fear and numbness.  I hear a voice whispering in my head "this is not fair".  So I remind myself that life is not and never has been fair.  

I've been thinking about my friends who were killed in a car accident.  someone asked what my mother said to me.  The only thing I remember is her sitting at the kitchen table with me.  She did not say much other than to nod her head in agreement when I told her that it should have been me that was killed.  I hear that voice again, telling me she is wrong.

See, I had forgotten about the voice in my head.  It was a mans voice that I heard all the time when I was a little kid:  Harri, she should not be doing this to you.  Harri, she should not say those things to you.  Harri she is wrong about that.  Harri you do not deserve that (that dang word again!)  Harri, you are good.  I have no idea who he was/is, but he is one of the things that saved me.  I can't believe I forgot about him.  I'd like to believe he was my angel.  He certainly helped me.

I heard again that voice in my head saying "this is not fair" when there was a short lived fear of another kind of tumor in my head.  The voice was not whispering this time.  It was loud and clear and I felt despair at the thought of yet another health issue.  Thankfully, it was nothing but all I could think was "are you kidding me?"   Something has to give somewhere.    

I am not okay with this.  I am not accepting.  I am not fully acknowledging.  I think I have reached my limit for now.  As lucky and as fortunate as I still think I am, I am tired and weary and I am angry right now.  I know this will pass.  I just don't want it to pass without me processing things through this time around.  

I don't deserve anything.  Not good things AND not bad things.  And no, life is not always fair.    

So yeah, I am in denial for some things.  I am minimizing my hurt and fear.  I am making myself be okay with things.    Well, things are not okay.  

I don't know how to express all of this either.  Like Turkish said, I cringe away from words like suffer, trauma, and heck I can't even think of other words right now.   You know... .those words.  The ones that I avoid at all costs.  Their use causes suffering for crying out loud.  No way no how!

I am woman hear me whimper.  Turkish, can we have some more of that fancy juice please?

(I know i missed responding to a lot.  I want to say I will get to it all, but I won't say it.  I just hope I do it because you all wrote some very good things)

[Turkish]

Oh, here is some: www.jackwills.blob.core.windows.net/wp-uploads/2015/06/Bubblesemoj.jpg

It's sparkling cider, liver safe  

You're going through life threatening stuff, Harri. You've got so much to deal with, and the past has its claws in you, too, causing stress enough that (it seems to me) you have trouble focusing on the physical issues. Is there a rule that requires you to heal the mind while your body is betraying you? If you don't want to accept, then don't. Hit pause for now on that aspect.

Aside from all that you are dealing with, maybe that's one reason why you take a break from here. You want to pause.

Personally, I hope that you do stay so we can support you as best that we can.  

Ultimately, you get to decide what's best for you, your worth. Not the ghost of an abusive mother, the voice of an enabling father, nor anyone else.

I don't deserve anything.  Not good things AND not bad things.  And no, life is not always fair.

This reminds me of what Clint Eastwood said in The Unforgiven, ":)eserving's got nothing to do with it."

I still really don't know what that means, but it sounds like it means something.

[Woolspinner2000]

Harri,

I'm sitting with my morning cup of tea, reading the BPD board posts and watching the birds eat their breakfast outside my window. I hear what you are saying, and I am okay with where you are, this tough place, and it's okay, really. I think that you've grown from youngster all the way into your 20s, so instead of focusing on how far you have to go, I see how far you've come!  I'm not walking in your shoes but boy, it sounds real tough.

As I read your post, I thought of something which has often encouraged me and I've frequently shared it with my kids. We are body (physical), mind and  soul/spirit. When one is affected, so are the other two. For example, when I have a head cold, it drains my physical body, causes me to feel depressed (the mental/mind part of me) and then I begin to doubt myself and wonder what is wrong with me in all these 'other' area in which I'm struggling (such as what is connected to my dysfunctional childhood). I'm not a psychologist but hopefully you'll get what I'm trying to say. When a portion of me is affected, then ALL of me is affected. No wonder you are struggling! Anyone in your shoes or similar shoes would be struggling too.

Keep holding on and pause and rest whenever you need to. You need a lot of energy for your physical body right now, and mental energy added to that may be more than you can handle. That's okay.

Thank you for staying in touch and sharing your life and struggles with us. 

Wools

[Kwamina]

Hello Harri,

You get a double hug today   ok one more

Okay.  I am not okay.  Not at all.  I am not accepting everything.  Somethings, yes, mostly.  The childhood stuff is mostly accepted.  What is still not accepted, though it is acknowledged, is that I have lost about 40 years of my life.  I keep reminding myself that I was caught in the craziness of my family until 12 years ago.  Not just involved with them, but actually still living with them, having my mother invade my boundaries, search my room, manipulate me, etc.  No friends, no support system, etc.  So I feel like I am more like in my early to mid 20's, yet I am 50.  That makes me sad and I feel overwhelmed.  I cringe away from that truth.  Yes, I still believe I chose this life and there were/are lessons I need to learn, but I think/hope there is more to come in my life.  I want more out of life.

Though it isn't pleasant feeling this way, I find it very important that you do acknowledge the fact that you are not feeling okay and are struggling with accepting certain things. This is how you feel and I am glad you are not denying it. Acceptance of the past and particularly acceptance of the passage of time, is very hard when the time that has passed was filled with so much abuse and negativity. You managed to survive and are still fighting today. Another member bethanny talked in her recent thread about how important this fighting spirit is. I think her words are also very relevant to you and that's why I'm quoting her here:

Crying jags are not fun, but I feel they are like the stinging sensation recovering from frostbite. It is the numbness that is the long-term danger, the grieving and sadness is fighting the de-pression, and honestly facing down the dis-ease!  Coming back to life, real inner life.  My inner child banging on the pipes wanting the ego-driven shame-based over adapted adult me to stop and feel and get grounded and honest.  To  let myself feel the hurt, the toxicity, the threat from outside I am enabling rather than fighting and/or detaching from.

I am glad hope is still alive in you. Sometimes it might seem that hope is all we have. Yet as long as we have hope, we still have something inside of us to drive and motivate us and keep us fighting.

I have not accepted my health issues, at least not the latest with the stage 4 liver disease.  I am scared.  So far I have not had a follow-up with the liver specialist.  I am supposed to see him again in april.  My home nurses and the doctor and nurse I see at the wound clinic keep asking me if I am on the transplant list... .and I am like What the heck?  So confused, scared and a bit overwhelmed.  I don't think I am that bad yet or if I ever will be that bad.  I've been doing some reading but I have to take it slow.  I get so scared when I read about how toxins can build up and affect brain function.  I live alone.  I won't know if I am losing my marbles because I will have lost my marbles!  :P  So no, I am not accepting this and I can't even say I am acknowledging it (thank you for that distinction Kwamina!).  I keep alternating between fear and numbness.  I hear a voice whispering in my head "this is not fair".  So I remind myself that life is not and never has been fair.

I think your fear is quite understandable considering the seriousness of your health issues. Yet since you don't know for certain how things will turn out, perhaps it's best to try and focus on the things you can control and also try not to focus too much on the most negative scenarios that could play out. It is of course important to be realistic, yet being realistic also means recognizing that we do not know what will happen in the future. What you do know is the present reality and perhaps it is best to take it one day at a time. This is easier said than done of course, I realize that.

I've been thinking about my friends who were killed in a car accident.  someone asked what my mother said to me.  The only thing I remember is her sitting at the kitchen table with me.  She did not say much other than to nod her head in agreement when I told her that it should have been me that was killed.  I hear that voice again, telling me she is wrong.

I would like to reinforce what that voice said to you, your mother was indeed wrong. Nobody should have or should not have died that day. Nobody deserved to die or live that day. Your mother was wrong about that but also for not comforting you her daughter and instead nodding in agreement when you said it should have been you. Your mother was wrong, its is what it is now, but she was wrong. She was also disordered and her being wrong undoubtedly stemmed from that disorder. This unfortunately doesn't change the reality that the way she acted was hurtful and seriously affected you.

See, I had forgotten about the voice in my head.  It was a mans voice that I heard all the time when I was a little kid:  Harri, she should not be doing this to you.  Harri, she should not say those things to you.  Harri she is wrong about that.  Harri you do not deserve that (that dang word again!)  Harri, you are good.  I have no idea who he was/is, but he is one of the things that saved me.  I can't believe I forgot about him.  I'd like to believe he was my angel.  He certainly helped me.

Perhaps that inner voice you heard was indeed your guardian angel. Perhaps it was your inner voice of hope that made it possible for you to survive. In the words of the poet Emily Dickinson, I measure every grief I meet with analytic eyes. Though we cannot take your pain away or change your current or past reality, I do want to let you know that I recognize your pain and the struggles you've been through and are still going through:

"TO fight aloud is very brave,

But gallanter, I know,

Who charge within the bosom,

The cavalry of woe."

Though we cannot change the reality of your current struggles, we can sit with you in our online community so you don't have to go through this all alone. A big part of acceptance is just sitting with your feelings and allowing yourself to truly feel and also express what you truly feel. Though we cannot solve all our problems, we can be there for each other and support each other during trying times like this.