Unconditional Love?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I had a great love with my soon to be ex husband. As time went on we were so happy except for his occasional outbursts of anger followed by tears and apologies.

As years went by these became more frequent, along with 2 episodes of physical harm.

He is a kind, generous loving man that I always dreamed of finding but began with all the other symptoms of BPD- too many to mention.  But he is also the type of man that would drop everything to be at my side in times of need.

One thing he always says is that he has always searched for unconditional love and thought he had found it in me but was wrong.

IS there such a thing? Is it overlooking his horrible behavior because he is so wonderful in so many other ways?

[Beacher]

I had a great love with my soon to be ex husband. As time went on we were so happy except for his occasional outbursts of anger followed by tears and apologies.

As years went by these became more frequent, along with 2 episodes of physical harm.

He is a kind, generous loving man that I always dreamed of finding but began with all the other symptoms of BPD- too many to mention.  But he is also the type of man that would drop everything to be at my side in times of need.

One thing he always says is that he has always searched for unconditional love and thought he had found it in me but was wrong.

IS there such a thing? Is it overlooking his horrible behavior because he is so wonderful in so many other ways?

[Turkish]

i had lunch with my Ex and the kids yesterday. Then I watched hem for a few hours on her day due to errands she had to run. We had decent conversation at lunch. When she came to pick up the kids, she said something invalidating. I ran it by a friend, and he said he would be angry if, as a father, it were said to him. I needed someone else to point out how I felt, and he was right. 3 hours with the kids, and I went back to WoE with her, despite a few hours before having a decent lunch, and wondering in the back of my mind why I let her go.

My T pointed out a long time ago that she was a dis-integrated personality. Not even looking up disintegration in regards to psycholgy (which I did later), that said a lot.

Turning the mirror around, I wondered about myself, and my views of her. Did I have a dis-integrated view of her as well?

Over two years out, and I still have trouble reconciling my views of her.

[blackbirdsong]

I had a great love with my soon to be ex husband. As time went on we were so happy except for his occasional outbursts of anger followed by tears and apologies.

As years went by these became more frequent, along with 2 episodes of physical harm.

He is a kind, generous loving man that I always dreamed of finding but began with all the other symptoms of BPD- too many to mention.  But he is also the type of man that would drop everything to be at my side in times of need.

One thing he always says is that he has always searched for unconditional love and thought he had found it in me but was wrong.

IS there such a thing? Is it overlooking his horrible behavior because he is so wonderful in so many other ways?

He was honest, but too optimistic. This is the essential part of the disorder. They seek unconditional love that they didn't feel during the childhood. And you cannot find unconditional love (how they see it) in romantic relationship. If you are lucky, you will find it in parental love.

[GreenEyedMonster]

To expand on what blackbirdsong said, there are basically two types of relationships in life -- unconditional relationships, and responsibility relationships.  Unconditional relationships are what children are *supposed* to have.  They are ideally relationships with parents, siblings, extended family, elementary teachers, caregivers, etc.  These are the relationships where, when the child messes up, the caregiver says, "It's okay to make mistakes, honey.  We still love you.  Now let's try that again another time and see if you can learn to do it."  These are the kinds of relationships that pwBPD were missing as kids.  They were never told that they were still loved and valuable when they messed up.

For adolescents, relationships begin to be based on responsibility.  This might include student roles, jobs, friendships, and romantic relationships.   These are the types of relationships that end when responsibilities aren't met.  If you fail to do your job, your boss doesn't say, "It's okay, Sweetie.  We'll let you try again.  We still love you."  That kind of second chance is earned only with an excellent reputation over time.  Romantic relationships end when you don't meet the other person's needs or expectations.  Friendships terminate if you are a "taker."  You fail classes when you don't do your work.  This is ADULT responsibility.  These are also the kinds of relationships that pwBPD had from early childhood.  Their own parents constantly threatened to "break up" with them if they failed. 

They never had that "unconditional" kind of relationship described above.  All of their relationships, from the beginning, were conditional, based on responsibility.  Giving children this kind of responsibility at a developmentally inappropriate age is abusive.  The result is that the child doesn't believe in unconditional love because he has never seen it.  A person who experienced this will spend his or her lifetime looking for that missing piece of love that they needed to grow into a complete self as a child.  Romantic relationships can NEVER provide this, because you can't promise your romantic partner that you will accept them whether they meet your needs or not.  When a pwBPD tries to get unconditional "parent love" from a romantic partner, it is bound to fail.

[heartandwhole]

IS there such a thing? Is it overlooking his horrible behavior because he is so wonderful in so many other ways?

I think there is such a thing, and as as others have said, I think the love that many parents feel toward their children (and vice versa) would fall into the idea of unconditional love. In my view, it's an acceptance of another person, wholly, as they are. It means a caring regard toward that person, no matter what.

BUT... .feeling that kind of love toward someone doesn't mean you will have a mutually satisfying relationship with them. In other words, that unconditional love has to include YOU. I don't know about "overlooking" pwBPD's behavior; I would say acceptance of his/her behavior is the best route to go, IF you feel you can experience the love, respect, and sharing (i.e., whatever your values around relationships are) that you want and need in your relationship.

I think true love as a concept is unconditional, but (adult) relationships are not. They have conditions that have to be met for both parties to remain connected in that form, regardless of how much they (unconditionally) love and accept each other.

heartandwhole

[pfeiffj1]

Sounds like this guy wants permission to be as absive as possible without you standing up for yourself.  This is typical borderline manipulation.  Do not feel guilty and fall for this !

[teapay]

My wife will also talk about being loved unconditionally.  Her view of unconditional love stems somewhat from her Christian beliefs and that God loves her unconditionally.  To love her unconditionally, others must love her the same way as God lover her.  To her this means no matter what she does she is forgiven and not condemned and her acts are completely forgotten, as if they never happened.  Therefore, there should be no consequences for actions. Otherwise it is conditional.  She also believes that the unconditional lover can not do any harm to her, meaning that the lover must do what she wants (instinctively) and not cause her distress in anyway, otherwise it is not love.  However, she also believes that unconditional love doesn't go both ways in a r/s and that it is unreasonable, not right and unfair for her to live and love that way.  Wouldn't that make her vulnerable to be hurt and that people will hurt her?  Wouldn't that mean she would have to do somethings she did not want to do? Wouldn't it ultimately mean overall less in life for her, that she would have to give up something and be cheated.  This is an example of how BPD can take a concept and distort it to meet the needs of the illness.

Nons can also fall prey to distortion and get immersed and stuck in the FOG.  The concept of unconditional love is a beautiful thing.  Only someone who is a complete jerk and a xxxx, and a complete yyyy too, would love conditionally.  Conditional love is just, so unloving, uncaring and unfeeling.  I've learned to leave the unconditional loving to God.

[anothercasualty]

  This is an example of how BPD can take a concept and distort it to meet the needs of the illness.

  I've learned to leave the unconditional loving to God.

Man! That is good stuff right there. No doubt that people will manipulate a concept and distort it to fit their needs.

Let me give an idea of unconditional love that is sustainable... .I had a relative who was in hospice for years. She was lucid sometimes, but not all the time. Her spouse would go see her everyday. Some days she knew him, some days she didn't. When she didn't, she would curse him and yell and be downright violent and ugly. That did not stop him from visiting. He would come back the next day and hope she was lucid that day. This went on for years. Eventually, she passed. After she passed, within two months, he passed. Our family respected that he felt his job was done. He had cared for her through a long dark time. I prayed for that kind of love that my sick relative received.

Some irony here, but I felt like I received the type of love that the spouse that visited got. I struggle with the feeling that by giving up I am not holding up to the standard that the spouse in the above story did. And that grieves me sometimes.

[thisworld]

Very interesting and beneficial topic Beacher, thank you for starting the thread.

From what I know, it is very common for some people who resort to physical violence and who are found emotionally abusive by their partners to mention "unconditional love" as a need or an expectation in the relationship. A lot of times, this is considered to be manipulative. For instance, in the example you give, 

("I thought I found it in you but I was wrong", the second part - "but I was wrong" can be as important as the stated need for unconditional love. Here, one partner does not simply state a need; does not verbally try to create a mutual space of love, acceptance and understanding where BOTH partners try to love each other as unconditionally as possible - within human limits and boundaries. On the contrary, he seems to be judging the quality of the love of another partner - so, his own love seems to be very conditional actually- and express some form of "disappointment


When this is communIMHO, in a sentence like 

[thisworld]

Sorry, there is a problem, so here I continue:

On the contrary, he seems to be judging the quality of the love of another partner - so, his own love seems to be very conditional actually- and express some form of "disappointment". When this happens, the other partner tries to "prove" their love and this is where it becomes manipulative regardless of the intention. Unconditional love is at best a feeling, a relationship is an area of action which is very conditional actually - emotional and physical safety being very important conditions as you say. Unconditional love does not require, mean or necessitate total submission or codependency on a partner. Also, we can love from afar. Psychology says that pwBPD have a need for unconditional love but is an adult relationship as we know nowadays the right space for this? (Partners who mention this are not usually unconditional lovers themselves.)   

But when someone goes to a T and says their partner demands unconditional love, psychologists sometimes point at different types of love more suitable for adult relationships.

The way I see it, as far as I know there is no unconditional love anyway - except the way described in religions. Parental love is not unconditional in its purest, either. It is built on the condition that there is a bond between the person giving the child the "unconditional love" gaze or the feeling and the child. And that happens under certain conditions that have occurred - only the child is not aware of them.

[GreenEyedMonster]

The way I see it, as far as I know there is no unconditional love anyway - except the way described in religions. Parental love is not unconditional in its purest, either. It is built on the condition that there is a bond between the person giving the child the "unconditional love" gaze or the feeling and the child. And that happens under certain conditions that have occurred - only the child is not aware of them.

I think that when pw disordered personalities say this, they are looking for the love that a parent or family should provide, but they don't realize what it is.  The double standard you describe is typical of parent relationships.  Children are free to reject their parents, criticize them, berate them, scorn and judge them.  But it is the parents' job to steadfastly love the child and not reject them through all this. 

My ex embodied this idea perfectly.  For example, we broke up when he went on a vacation without me.  He didn't feel the slightest obligation to find out if I wanted to come with him -- I was just supposed to be happy that he was happy and having fun with his friends.  I was supposed to act like a parent, whose only stake in the matter was his personal fulfillment, and as long as that was happening, wear a smile straight through it.  I was supposed to be like a mother sending her boy off to summer camp, happy to see the pictures and hear the stories at the end, and fund the whole thing, but missing out on the real experience.

As another poster mentioned, romantic partner relationships are NOT the proper venue for "unconditional" love.  That is someone asking you to stick around and deal whether your partner chooses to meet your needs or not. 

[thisworld]

I so agree with GEM about the parents' job to steadfastly love the child without changing this depending on the child's behaviour. However, isn't even this love conditional in the sense that it is between a parent and a child - or figures resembling these? Likewise, in my opinion, practicing unconditional love in relationships would require two people at least. And to me, that requirement on its own has inevitable implications about boundaries - neither should cease to exist so that the pair is there. And that existence also has so many implications.

I also agree with you that pw disordered personalities say this looking for a different kind of love that should have been provided. But I have had experiences with a cerebral narcissist who said this simply to control my reactions as well. With my BPD ex it was a bit different. He and I had truly heartfelt conversations sometimes, I believe he was genuine in them as well. We talked about the fear of abandonment, the feeling of feeling like a fake, compassion, forgiveness and many other things; and not from a point of view that was pathologizing him, either - actually my ex is very aware that he has a problem other than addiction. However, this didn't mean that these would not be used to control a situation when he felt under stress. Just like the taking some time out strategy we decided to practice when conversation was a bit heated. At first he was very happy with this. Very quickly, he started saying "time out" and things like that as soon as I opened my mouth. "Being loving" was my duty and actually, I was loving to him to the best of my power. Problems started when I was being loving to myself as well. That's why I believe that unconditional love demanded this way sometimes has the covert expectation or the condition that the giver should unconditionally love one person only - the outside receiver. Would adults demanding this love from others this way be satisfied with unconditional love if the giver also loved themselves unconditionally and acted accordingly or would they see it as a conflict of interest? My guess, the latter would happen - angry reactions to my personal boundaries shows this to me.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I so agree with GEM about the parents' job to steadfastly love the child without changing this depending on the child's behaviour. However, isn't even this love conditional in the sense that it is between a parent and a child - or figures resembling these? Likewise, in my opinion, practicing unconditional love in relationships would require two people at least. And to me, that requirement on its own has inevitable implications about boundaries - neither should cease to exist so that the pair is there. And that existence also has so many implications.

Yes, it's true that the preexisting relationship IS the reason for love.  But for a child, this isn't something they have to think about, because they will never cease to be the child of their parents, no matter what else happens.  But this is exactly the kind of thing my ex presupposed.  "You are my girlfriend, therefore you will always love me."  The relationship was a given, something taken entirely for granted.  The idea that I could stop being his girlfriend of my own free will seemed strangely absent from his calculations about the situation.  This was by far THE oddest thing about the relationship.  It is what gave me the feeling that something was really wrong.  He regarded me exactly as a child would regard his mother -- as a relationship that he did not create or maintain, but something that just happened and that he could ignore.  Most boyfriends would think, "If I go on this vacation without GEM, is she going to break up with me?"  But my ex didn't seem to consider situations this way.  He certainly didn't want to be shamed by me over his choice, but he felt absolutely NO sense of obligation to change his path so that he could preserve our relationship.  I was supposed to love him no matter what he did, or the relationship didn't interest him.

In other words, if I wasn't going to be his girlfriend no matter what he did, like a mother would be his mother no matter what he did, the relationship didn't matter to him, and seemed "abusive."

I also agree with you that pw disordered personalities say this looking for a different kind of love that should have been provided. But I have had experiences with a cerebral narcissist who said this simply to control my reactions as well. With my BPD ex it was a bit different. He and I had truly heartfelt conversations sometimes, I believe he was genuine in them as well. We talked about the fear of abandonment, the feeling of feeling like a fake, compassion, forgiveness and many other things; and not from a point of view that was pathologizing him, either - actually my ex is very aware that he has a problem other than addiction. However, this didn't mean that these would not be used to control a situation when he felt under stress. Just like the taking some time out strategy we decided to practice when conversation was a bit heated. At first he was very happy with this. Very quickly, he started saying "time out" and things like that as soon as I opened my mouth. "Being loving" was my duty and actually, I was loving to him to the best of my power. Problems started when I was being loving to myself as well. That's why I believe that unconditional love demanded this way sometimes has the covert expectation or the condition that the giver should unconditionally love one person only - the outside receiver. Would adults demanding this love from others this way be satisfied with unconditional love if the giver also loved themselves unconditionally and acted accordingly or would they see it as a conflict of interest? My guess, the latter would happen - angry reactions to my personal boundaries shows this to me.

I think for pwBPD (and NPD, for that matter), most of the emotions are "about" themselves.  Caring for yourself implies that you have power in a situation, and choices, and that is what terrifies people with abandonment fears.  If I fear being abandoned, for example, my ex going on vacation with a group of single women and crashing on the floor next to them at a secluded house is going to trigger that . . . because all the sudden he has choices other than me, and some of those choices might look good.  The underlying belief is that if he has choices, he will not choose me.  Somewhere deep down, pwBPD and NPD probably believe that we are only with them out of desperation or lack of other options.  So if you care for yourself unconditionally, this might become a trigger, reminding the pwBPD that you can judge and evaluate them and decide if they are "good enough" for you.  The only reassuring feeling is if you have low self-worth yourself, and feel *lucky* to be with that person.

[mrwigand]

I had a great love with my soon to be ex husband. As time went on we were so happy except for his occasional outbursts of anger followed by tears and apologies.

As years went by these became more frequent, along with 2 episodes of physical harm.

He is a kind, generous loving man that I always dreamed of finding but began with all the other symptoms of BPD- too many to mention.  But he is also the type of man that would drop everything to be at my side in times of need.

One thing he always says is that he has always searched for unconditional love and thought he had found it in me but was wrong.

IS there such a thing? Is it overlooking his horrible behavior because he is so wonderful in so many other ways?

Yes, there is such a thing, but that's the love a parent has for their child. Love between romantic partners is different and should be different. It sounds like your husband hasn't taken responsibility for his actions and behavior. His statement on unconditional love, which I would say is unnecessarily hurtful in any case, almost sounds like him saying, "the problem isn't me, she just couldn't love me properly." That's not a healthy or fair way to look at it.

[steelwork]

I just remembered something my ex said to me very early on. We had spent two days together in a cabin. It was the beginning of our sexual relationship. After the weekend was over, he wrote me a letter recounting in as much detail as possible what had happened. What it was like each time we made love, and in between. (He had a panic attack after our first time but didn't tell me it was happening at the time.)

And he said (I'm paraphrasing) that love was changable. It needed to be protected so it would survive. The opposite, really, of unconditional love. It scared me when he said that. I didn't know why. I think now it was because I knew he was putting me on notice.

Maybe he'd blown hot and cold so many times before that he thought it was normal, and he was already mourning the end of his idealization of me--which, he knew, would be the end of us.

Wow. I just put all that together.

[GreenEyedMonster]

"I'll love you unconditionally if you love me unconditionally first."   

[steelwork]

"I'll love you unconditionally if you love me unconditionally first."   

Wow, yeah, I guess that sums it up.

[hope2727]

My therapist told me that I love unconditionally. He said that it is ok to do so. I thought about this thread a lot lately. I guess for me, yes I do love him unconditionally. I don't like his choices of behaviour. I don't plan to stick my neck out to be kicked in the teeth again. But I do and likely always will love him.

Perhaps unconditional love, as I perceive it, comes with radical acceptance. I radically accept that he is who he is. I do not accept being treated like poop and then blamed for it. I love him as he is. I do not like him or accept his treatment of me. ITs a weird dichotomy but I accept it. I can't be other than myself and I know I love him despite it all.

[GreenEyedMonster]

My therapist told me that I love unconditionally. He said that it is ok to do so. I thought about this thread a lot lately. I guess for me, yes I do love him unconditionally. I don't like his choices of behaviour. I don't plan to stick my neck out to be kicked in the teeth again. But I do and likely always will love him.

Perhaps unconditional love, as I perceive it, comes with radical acceptance. I radically accept that he is who he is. I do not accept being treated like poop and then blamed for it. I love him as he is. I do not like him or accept his treatment of me. ITs a weird dichotomy but I accept it. I can't be other than myself and I know I love him despite it all.

I completely understand what you mean.  I feel a definite sense of human compassion for my ex.  He's had a difficult life, and is likely to continue to have a difficult life.  But I no longer feel the need to personally insert myself into the situation to mitigate his problems.  If he were to call me or see me, I would be kind to him or ignore him or whatever I felt would make him most comfortable.  He can't be something other than what he is, and he isn't responsible for the abuse that happened to him as a child.  So I love him in the sense of empathetic compassion.

I think there IS such thing as unconditional love in relationships, but it doesn't always lead to a marriage/commitment/romance scenario.  One of my other exes, with whom I spent a large chunk of my life, and I still love each other.  We say it sometimes.  But we're still debating whether or not this would work as a marriage scenario.

I feel like the quote I posted above sums up my ex's view of the world, though.  He wanted a guarantee that I would be there and provide for the needs of his fragile ego, or he felt like *he* was being abused.  As long as I met my "obligations," he was willing to meet his, but otherwise the deal was off.  This was part of his so-called "sense of justice."  Since I didn't love him even when he left me behind, hurt me, ignored me, and acted like I was a general pain, I am now a fair target for all of his revenge fantasies and smear campaigns.  It is funny how I went from a stranger to someone who "owes" him so quickly.

For my part, I have always been painfully aware that romantic love tends to be a conditional situation, hence my abandonment fears.  When I was bending over backwards to meet his needs to avoid my own rejection, I was acting exactly the way he wanted.  It was an unfair, imbalanced relationship.  I want to be loved in a way that someone understands and accepts my flaws, and gives me the benefit of the doubt . . . and that is the closest thing to unconditional love I can hope for from a partner, I think.

I think this is where his sense of entitlement comes from, too.  He wants a relationship that provides for his needs with no input on his part, like a child would.  He doesn't understand reciprocity as a basic concept.

[AwakenedOne]

I think that according to most wedding vows that are spoken we are vowing to have an unconditional love untill death do us part. I believe that this still doesn't mean anything goes and will be acceptable in the marriage. Real love means care and accountability with the one who we have entered into the life union with. If our spouse is not accountable then they violate the vows and when they abandon the marriage the vows are trashed. Seems most people who get married care more about the wedding dress design, the ring, the cake or some other ultimate nonsense type of thing than the vows.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think that according to most wedding vows that are spoken we are vowing to have an unconditional love untill death do us part. I believe that this still doesn't mean anything goes and will be acceptable in the marriage. Real love means care and accountability with the one who we have entered into the life union with. If our spouse is not accountable then they violate the vows and when they abandon the marriage the vows are trashed. Seems most people who get married care more about the wedding dress design, the ring, the cake or some other ultimate nonsense type of thing than the vows.

Part of the way a wedding works is that you both take the same vows at the same time, in public for all to see.  You don't get to wait and see if your spouse will take the vows before you decide to take them, too.

One could also argue that an unconditional commitment and unconditional love aren't the same thing 

[Beacher]

Wow thank you all for your input. I've taken away so many good things.

I always thought back on our vows' in sickness and in health'. I think unconditional love ( if there is such a thing in romantic relationships) also includes forgiveness. And boy I have forgiven so many cruel, terrible things that he has done. Trying to be loving and accept who he is. Yet when he found out I had been lying about smoking, there was no forgiveness. It was brought up time and time again. No amount of apologizing or trying to make it up was ever enough.

I also believe that children and parents share unconditional love. Especially babies. And for sure our loving pets. They run to the door so happy to see us no matter what.

Thank you all again my friends ❤️

[lala42]

I understand what you mean. I´m not a parent, but I think that good and self-respecting parents would love and respect their children, but also teach the children to respect them. Real parent love isn´t always being nice to children, but also being firm at times and point out if what they do is wrong. So, from that perspective, one should also require respect from the borderline and not let them manipulate you with the "unconditional love" bull___. Mistreatment is not acceptable.