Lack of empathy

[Depression = 72% of members]

We often say that BPD persons have lack of empathy. I doubt that this is the core problem.

I think they have empathy as we do, but they don't show it as often as non-PD persons.

Can you consider this situation - If you are in emergency room, with severe injury, in that moment - how empathetic are you towards other people in a waiting room?

I bet it is not as you are while with your friends in your living room. I hope that you see what I am trying to say. They are in a constant fight with inner-self and while this "war" is performing, they forget about their  surrounding.

I often see here that people think that BPD persons are bad/mean/psychopaths/... .I really think that this type of reasoning is not beneficial for our healing.

What do you think?

Also, my processing of our relationship and overall healing process shifts from one perspective to a different one. The more I realize that BPD is a serious disorder, that all those things aren't "deliberate and pure evil", my codependency issues are triggered, the savior complex is up and running. I know that this is unhealthy way of thinking, but it is a part of me. Anyone else experiencing something similar?

[blackbirdsong]

We often say that BPD persons have lack of empathy. I doubt that this is the core problem.

I think they have empathy as we do, but they don't show it as often as non-PD persons.

Can you consider this situation - If you are in emergency room, with severe injury, in that moment - how empathetic are you towards other people in a waiting room?

I bet it is not as you are while with your friends in your living room. I hope that you see what I am trying to say. They are in a constant fight with inner-self and while this "war" is performing, they forget about their  surrounding.

I often see here that people think that BPD persons are bad/mean/psychopaths/... .I really think that this type of reasoning is not beneficial for our healing.

What do you think?

Also, my processing of our relationship and overall healing process shifts from one perspective to a different one. The more I realize that BPD is a serious disorder, that all those things aren't "deliberate and pure evil", my codependency issues are triggered, the savior complex is up and running. I know that this is unhealthy way of thinking, but it is a part of me. Anyone else experiencing something similar?

[Daniell85]

It's a rollercoaster, yes. Back and forth for me. Acceptance he has a terrible disorder, there is nothing I can do, to rage at him for mistreating me. To feeling, oh it's all so awful, there must  be something I can do or say to help him.

Inside of me there is this little tiny flame of hope that can flare up, and die back down. I think it's part of a grieving process that is likely to leave most of us in a state of some form of acceptance in the end.

[Itstopsnow]

Blackbird song,

I can agree with your first part. It is actually a very good way to look at it. It helps to soften the hurt. It is Not fully intentionally done by these people. But with  that being said. They do have the ability to understand right from wrong. All people with BPD are not the same and do not do the same actions. But They have black and white thinking. Which means they can be very cruel, cold, and hostile at their loved ones for little to no reason. Sometimes they may treat you badly just because of a mood swing.  Sometimes they even enjoy the illusion this "power" brings them when they rant and rave. It makes them feel in control and gives them that rush of endorphins which they tend to run low on.     . Yes they are hurting inside. But that doesn't take away from the hurts they inflict on their family members and loved ones. . It is such a complex disorder and their motives might not even be fully known by them at all times. . So we can not always speculate what they are thinking or doing at any given time. But one thing is for certain! They look out for themselves and only themselves. And that is not the way I want to live and I don't believe it is  a healthy way for anyone to live.  I'm sure it is very hard for the ones that face their demons and try to get better. Especially when they have doctors and people and internet searches telling them all their behaviors and why.

But the ones that do not  see treatment and think they are  NOT in the wrong and think they are justified in cheating, or lying or raging, because they didn't like your tone of voice, or they what you said to them etc etc... . That is where it can become very toxic for all parties involved. They will never see their part in it. and they don't want to.  Because Then they would have to admit that there is something wrong in their brain chemistry. This is a disorder that is  very hard to treat because of their inability to see their part, their selfishness and their ego and pride get in the way.  Not to mention they love to act out. They love the rush and the impulsive behaviors give them that outlet. Although it makes them feel worse long term or ruins parts of their lives by doing such things. But again we are talking about people that have a very low emotional IQ. So they will act out selfishly like a spoiled little brat but with adult actions and consequences. You see this is all they have to themselves. ( they think that anyway) I wouldn't want to be in their shoes but I'm not giving them a pass on their behaviors. I'm not saying you are giving them a pass either. I'm just stating  We all have free will and they are not that mentally disordered that they do not have a clear enough state of mind to know that berating, abusing, manipulating, chronic lying,  using and cheating are very wrong things to do. They will walk away when the situation doesn't suit their needs anymore.  So their empathy is not at an adult level and if it comes down to being empathic for you or getting what they want . They will chose the latter. They want what they want when they want it. Their Character is faulty and yes it is the disorder that is causing them to view life this way and feel things the way they do. The best thing to do is try and make peace with what happened and detach. We will never fully get what and why they do things. It is good to have some compassion for them if you can . But not necessary... .Moving on is the best thing for us. It is time to think about ourselves and our needs. I am trying to do that for me. It is a process and I hope to fully be there soon

[MapleBob]

I think you're mostly right, but a more apt metaphor might be that of a teenager who screams "I hate you, mom! I hate this whole family!" and runs into their bedroom and slams the door. It's childish behavior, the words they say aren't even the whole truth, they're just lashing out in an immature, teenage angst kind of way.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Yes, I see both points.

Your analogy to an injured person in an emergency room is very apt.  I think that individuals with core traumas like the ones that cause BPD and NPD are permanently on alert for more trauma, in the sense of having a personality built on PTSD-like behavior.  When their brain's defense mechanisms are triggered, it almost becomes an automatic response, and their underlying values or beliefs have nothing to do with it.  It certainly is not personal, and any "replacement" will experience the exact same thing soon enough.  I was the "replacement" for a woman in Florida who is eerily like me.  He ditched her in the EXACT same way, with the EXACT same delusions afterwards, and the EXACT same regrets.  If that doesn't tell you that it's a programmed response in his brain, what will?  I do not take any of his behavior personally at all.

When my ex was calm and not triggered, his relationship philosophy was very similar to mine.  He could articulate what he thought a good boyfriend should do.  He was actually pretty supportive and understanding.  But the minute his core traumas were brought to the surface, all bets were off.  And it didn't take much to do that -- just looking at him wrong is plenty.

I get what you mean about feeling codependent because your ex is pitiful somewhere deep down.  But I like the post about the Frog and the Scorpion fable that someone posted.  Once someone has been traumatized over and over, the responses become part of their nature.  It takes a lot of motivation and therapy to change.  I know that I can't take a middle aged man who has been this way all his life and fix him, especially if he won't let me talk to him about ANY of the things that bother me.  I say the serenity prayer, and chalk this one up to something that is far, far beyond my control.  Also, if this individual won't change for themselves, they won't change for love of you.

[Ab123]

I haven't been willing/ready to share the last bit in my story since thinking that my ex and I were going to give it another go about two weeks ago. I've now been NC for 12 days, and really think it is over. But, this thread is directly on point.

Without going into it, the way closure came reinforces my theory that he is like a vampire, compelled to destroy what he loves and hating himself for it.  He feels empathy and hates that he hurts me, but his own fear and anxiety are incredibly powerful drivers of his compulsions/rage.  I really think he is letting me go on almost the same theory Edward abandons Bella in Twilight, although that seems almost overly dramatic. My ex is older and realized his pattern. He seems to understand that he is emotionally abusive, but believes he can't control it.

He actually said that giving me up and giving up the idea of sharing a life with someone is nothing compared to Christ's sacrifice, as a way to comfort himself. He views it as a moral necessity, making him worthy of gods love.

In other news, I know he is dating others again, but clearly on a very superficial/casual level, avoiding attachment/obligation. (We were very serious and planning a future).  I think he plans to limit his emotional entanglements to his biological family, at least for the foreseeable future.

[Fr4nz]

We often say that BPD persons have lack of empathy. I doubt that this is the core problem.

I think they have empathy as we do, but they don't show it as often as non-PD persons.

Can you consider this situation - If you are in emergency room, with severe injury, in that moment - how empathetic are you towards other people in a waiting room?

I bet it is not as you are while with your friends in your living room. I hope that you see what I am trying to say. They are in a constant fight with inner-self and while this "war" is performing, they forget about their  surrounding.

I often see here that people think that BPD persons are bad/mean/psychopaths/... .I really think that this type of reasoning is not beneficial for our healing.

What do you think?

Also, my processing of our relationship and overall healing process shifts from one perspective to a different one. The more I realize that BPD is a serious disorder, that all those things aren't "deliberate and pure evil", my codependency issues are triggered, the savior complex is up and running. I know that this is unhealthy way of thinking, but it is a part of me. Anyone else experiencing something similar?

Youi nailed the point. I think the majority of BPDs feel empathy (perhaps taking out those that posses ASPD/NPD traits... .but it depends on specific cases); however, given that they are extremely focused on themselves, and they feel emotions in an incredibly strong way, they may completely supress empathy when they are caught in one of their emotional storms.

When this happens, they can inflict incredible emotional damages to their partners. Indeed, in many cases I think that their shame derives from the realization, a posteriori, of the emotional damage they inflicted on their SOs through their dysfunctional behaviours.

[anothercasualty]

Great thread!

I realize I am a newbie here and really don't have the experience of depth of knowledge and clarity that most folks posting here do. Having said that, I do feel that my pwBPD does understand the pain she causes. She vocalized that many times. But she didn't vocalize it to make me feel better, she vocalized it to express the deep self-shame she felt. She really could not forgive herself even though I had forgiven her. Even when apologizing, it was more about her than me, and she couldn't help it. It truly was how she was wired.

My stumbling block was thinking that when she realized her issues and began to work them, she would find healing at some point. It's been several months and it's worse now than at the first breakup. Her decisions change way faster now!

Keep this thread going so dumb guys like me can learn!

[Ash80]

I completely understand were your coming from and honestly empathise. I am four weeks out of a failed engagement with my ex who I have five month old son with. I have gone through nearly two years of emotional ups and downs. From the early stages I really thought I’d found my soul mate, beautiful, kind, loving and with all the same values.

Very quickly I noticed these teenage tantrums and I just couldn’t talk like an adult with her, storming off to bed, threating our relationship, telling me she hated and despised me then the next day telling me how much she loved me, even came back with a tattoo with my initials one day after a big fight in which she said id let myself go, made vile sexual references to other men on the TV, told me I was a terrible dad and had no bond with my son and that she wished our son was her ex partners and not mine.

Anyway, after all of this I still loved her and tried to understand, tried to get her the right help. It didn’t work though, she blamed me for discussing her past and said it was all my fault. I came home from work one day and the house was packed up and she said she was leaving me, I tried to calm her down and talk but she lost it and came at me with a glass.

I’m currently off work now on my own for three months as she completely severed the tendons in my hand. She took my son and cut all contact, no empathy, and no remorse. Two days later she putting selfies up online of herself out on a night out.

She’s completely destroyed me, financially and emotionally and left me having to rely on friends and family to help me do the basic things like opening a can or getting my coat on, again no empathy or nothing.

I still feel this massive sense of loss though, like never before. I feel like I want to find her and tell her I understand, tell her I will be there to support her and show her the empathy she couldn’t show me. I think about her day and night and I’m really struggling to let go. I just think the brutal nature of her behaviour and the terrible, hurtful things she could say stop me from ever going back. I feel that the only way I could ever heal and find peace, happiness and a stable relationship s to let her go forever.

[Fr4nz]

Hey Ash,

that's very intense what happened to you, wow!

Anyway yes, as sad as it can be... .you have to let her go. You cannot cure her demons... .

[Daniell85]

Ash, your ex retreated probably due to extreme shame.

That being said, I agree with the poster who made the analogy to the emergency room, and the BPD being so focused on their own pain that they tend to lack capacity to see anyone else around them is hurt, too.

Survival, huh?

Those who have BPD and realize there is really a problem with themselves, well honestly, many times I lack patience with someone who KNOWS they are the problem, but refuses to figure out a way ( after a certain point) to gain some insight and healing.

Problem for me with my ex wasn't so much that he had made some pretty ugly mistakes. I gave it up, because I saw very little sign that he was going to do anything else but wallow in the mess he has made of things, and continue abusing me with more of the same. I can forgive and deal with a person who at least attempts to progress, but I just end up stuck and being pulled down into a really bad place myself if I try to stick with him and endure the messed up situation. It destroys my life, too.

[Ash80]

Hey Fr4nz, Daniell85

It’s a terrible situation and I truly feel for anyone who has lived with a partner with this condition. I think your right Daniell85, the lack of empathy is maybe just the inability to get passed their own issues which prevent them seeing how those around them suffer. I’m sorry to hear you have been on the receiving end of this destructive path, my family and I feel like a bomb has literally gone off in our lives.

My eldest son from a previous relationship called her step-mum and was so pleased to finally have a sibling, she walked away any never asked a thing about him. I think one of the hardest things for me is trying to come to terms with the pain she has caused me.

When I first met her she told me she was sexual abused for years as a child by her grandad then raped as a teenager. Her grandad was still alive and she was letting him collect and look after her own 7 year old daughter at the time. I put an immediate stop to it and told her I would have to do something if I knew this was going to continue. She put in a position where I had to sit across the table from this man playing happy families as she wouldn’t let say anything because it would break up her family.

Instead I got her and her daughter out, moved them to a new area and used all my savings to but her a car, build a nice home and give her a fresh start. All I got in return was terrible verbal abuse, put downs and manipulative behaviour. She has left me with nothing, a broken man paying off all the things I tried to do to make her happy, engagement ring, family holiday and car. I nearly lost my job as a result of the assault.

I spoke to a therapist recently who questioned if her abuse stories could actually be lies to emphasis her vulnerability and need as she could be very clingy at times, like a child in need of constant love and attention. This experience has left me scarred emotionally and physically. I think then only way anyone can find peace in these situations is to walk away. I know that sounds harsh but unless a person is willing to accept BPD and get help the cycle will continue and continue. It left me feeling suicidal and I have never ever been that kind of man. 

[Fr4nz]

You're absolutely right Ash.

Also, I was wondering too if her abuse stories were true... .it can be, but the fact that she allowed her abusive parent to stay in contact with her and your children sounds very strange to me... .

[Ash80]

I'm starting to question it myself. It caused so many fights as i refused to have anything to do with the man or let our children be with him. She just kept saying people will ask questions and you will cause trouble. I really struggled, i have lost track of the amount of fights in which i have tried to sit her down and say, this man is a danger to children, i wont put them in that position. All i got was blame and abuse. I always thought id odd that out of the many relationships she has had i was the only one who she told.

I found out not long ago that when i first met her she had only been out of a relationship for four weeks in which she was engaged and due to but a house and get married, she also walked away from her ex partners family and his daughter without any remorse.

I wonder if these types of stories are attention based, to get people to feel sorry for them or give them more time and support. My head is a mess with it all, i really struggle to understand how someone could say something like that if it wasnt actually true. 

[steelwork]

Maybe this is a good place to bring up something that confuses me. It's said over and over that BPD is often comorbid with NPD. pwNPD, they say, lack empathy--that is the hallmark trait. pwBPD can at times be very empathetic indeed. So if a pwBPD also has NPD traits, does that mean they lack empathy or not? Do they sometimes lack empathy--i.e. when their NPD traits are triggered? How does that work?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Maybe this is a good place to bring up something that confuses me. It's said over and over that BPD is often comorbid with NPD. pwNPD, they say, lack empathy--that is the hallmark trait. pwBPD can at times be very empathetic indeed. So if a pwBPD also has NPD traits, does that mean they lack empathy or not? Do they sometimes lack empathy--i.e. when their NPD traits are triggered? How does that work?

I've wondered the same thing myself.  My ex was very attuned to other people's feelings and could readily guess if I were upset, sad, etc.  I think this was mostly to protect himself, though, as he had little interest in making my feelings his problem.  I think he was mostly NPD.  In his case, he would act on protecting my feelings and comforting me when it benefited him, but otherwise had little interest.

His lack of empathy really manifested itself most as what he called a "sense of justice."  Most people would probably describe it as more of an eye-for-an-eye desire for revenge.  It took a lot of effort for him to understand that other people were not maliciously causing him harm.  For example, if someone turned in front of him at a blind intersection, he struggled to realize that the other person probably legitimately couldn't see that he was coming.  He would honk his horn at them in really brazen displays of road rage.  I told him next time, drive through the intersection the other way, and he'd realize the other person couldn't see him.

In relationships, he sees those who violate his sense of worth as being essentially bad people who deserve to be punished.  He used to say that his other ex-girlfriend was sub-human and as such, had no human rights.  He could justify doing ANYTHING to her as revenge, then.  His attitude was, overall, very self-referential and self-righteous.  The idea that other people could make honest mistakes or have flaws that we can't help simply escaped him.

[Mels]

We often say that BPD persons have lack of empathy. I doubt that this is the core problem.

I think they have empathy as we do, but they don't show it as often as non-PD persons.

Can you consider this situation - If you are in emergency room, with severe injury, in that moment - how empathetic are you towards other people in a waiting room?

I bet it is not as you are while with your friends in your living room. I hope that you see what I am trying to say. They are in a constant fight with inner-self and while this "war" is performing, they forget about their  surrounding.

I often see here that people think that BPD persons are bad/mean/psychopaths/... .I really think that this type of reasoning is not beneficial for our healing.

What do you think?

Also, my processing of our relationship and overall healing process shifts from one perspective to a different one. The more I realize that BPD is a serious disorder, that all those things aren't "deliberate and pure evil", my codependency issues are triggered, the savior complex is up and running. I know that this is unhealthy way of thinking, but it is a part of me. Anyone else experiencing something similar?

I can definitely relate to this.

This is a very healthy way of dealing with the situation. Healing. I'm not there yet. I'm angry at him. It's been a little over a month. We were married for 5 years. I know I'm better off but it's how HE dealt with me, our marriage, how he's dealing with the separation (already on Tinder and lying to me about it, etc.)

[anothercasualty]

Also, my processing of our relationship and overall healing process shifts from one perspective to a different one. The more I realize that BPD is a serious disorder, that all those things aren't "deliberate and pure evil", my codependency issues are triggered, the savior complex is up and running. I know that this is unhealthy way of thinking, but it is a part of me. Anyone else experiencing something similar?

YES! I think I have it more because most of my life I had been told I was very selfish. About 10 years ago I divorced and during that time I chose to change and be more about others than myself. I am hyper-sensitive to being perceived as selfish. Prior to the relationship with my pwBPD, I thought I had found balance. I loved me but cared for others too. This relationship swung the pendulum way far to the taking care of others side. I had heard the term codependent but never understood much less think I was one. Well... .Here I am.

Hi, my name is <AnotherCasualty> and I am a codependent. I am here to change that and heal into a semi-normal dude once again, albeit one with a bit more experience under his 40+ year old belt.

[steelwork]

I'm really trying to puzzle out the nature of D's empathy. He is very interested in other people, that's for sure, but he's more caught up in his theories about them--the fun of analyzing what makes them tick, riffing on their traits, having fun with ideas of them--than them as individuals. I'm not sure how empathetic he is, really.

He often took my part--like, was way more angry on my behalf when someone screwed me over or something than I was myself. But, again, it wasn't exactly what I would call empathy.

Once I told him a story about something very painful that an old boyfriend had done to me, and he was definitely moved to sympathy, but what he kept saying was, "How could anyone not love you? That's what I don't understand." He didn't seem to be that focused on what my feelings had been.

Is that empathy?

A side note: after we had broken up but were in low contact, I wrote him something about my mother, how I was starting to see her as an odd kind of narcissist. He wrote back that maybe she was a covert narcissist--that he'd been looking into that when he was getting divorced, because he learned that narcissists get with other narcissists. I assume he meant that his ex wife was a narcissist (though he also told me she'd been diagnosed with BPD), so was he suspecting that HE was a covert narcissist? He'd already said things to me like that he "lacked internal objects" and that he had "abandonment issues." I think he was exploring the possibility that he had SOME kind of personality disorder, though he didn't come out and say it.

Well, one thing's for sure: he didn't show much compunction about squashing my heart like a bug once he'd replaced me. So I guess that's what actually matters to me.