A problem I thought went "away"

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I need some help. I finally convinced my wife to go into MC. Our first session is next week. I didn’t convince by hounding.  I conveyed through letting her know how I saw things and where I saw our relationship heading.  She has told me that she knows the intimacy issues are her “fault”. I just listen. She thanked me for talking to her and not issuing an ultimatum.  I am afraid that this other issue is going to make us go backwards.

The issue is my wife using abnormal methods to get the approval of one my daughters. I can chose to “ignore” it and see where it goes or address it.

A little history… I will call my daughter Jane here.  Jane is 26 years old, married and ready to have a baby here in a few weeks. (bright spot in my life). Jane and her husband just moved out of state a couple of months ago.

There have been past tensions between my kids and my second wife. I wish I had time to explain the dynamics. I have 4 kids, S20, D27, D23, D26 . D23 is living at the house with us now.

For some reason my wife “needs” the acceptance of Jane D26.  Jane is cordial to my wife and friendly when around my wife but does not go out of her way to bring the relationship any closer than that.

Here is what happened. There is a young man I know that had gotten very sick close to death (my daughter Jane is friends with his family). He went into the hospital and they treated his illness and now he is in remission. He had posted videos on facebook that were inspiring. My wife had seen them on facebook and was very moved by what he had posted and she was showing me.  I have been off facebook for a while.

When he first went into the hospital my daughter Jane texted me to let me know what was going on. I had kept this young man in my prayers.

My daughter Jane sent me a text with a link to one of his videos where he was saying what God had done for him. I replied “that is awesome”

I picked up my phone last night to charge it and I noticed a text was sent to my daughter jane (but I didn’t send it)

My wife texted jane from my phone making it look like I sent it, it said.

(My wife’s name) has really been blessed by him. She has such a tender heart.

My daughter has not responded to that text. My wife is waiting for a response.

Let me say this my wife, was not being nasty.

How do I handle this? The text wasn’t mean or nasty. The problem I thought went away is my wife “using” me to say nice things about her to compel someone to see

the good in her

[byfaith]

I need some help. I finally convinced my wife to go into MC. Our first session is next week. I didn’t convince by hounding.  I conveyed through letting her know how I saw things and where I saw our relationship heading.  She has told me that she knows the intimacy issues are her “fault”. I just listen. She thanked me for talking to her and not issuing an ultimatum.  I am afraid that this other issue is going to make us go backwards.

The issue is my wife using abnormal methods to get the approval of one my daughters. I can chose to “ignore” it and see where it goes or address it.

A little history… I will call my daughter Jane here.  Jane is 26 years old, married and ready to have a baby here in a few weeks. (bright spot in my life). Jane and her husband just moved out of state a couple of months ago.

There have been past tensions between my kids and my second wife. I wish I had time to explain the dynamics. I have 4 kids, S20, D27, D23, D26 . D23 is living at the house with us now.

For some reason my wife “needs” the acceptance of Jane D26.  Jane is cordial to my wife and friendly when around my wife but does not go out of her way to bring the relationship any closer than that.

Here is what happened. There is a young man I know that had gotten very sick close to death (my daughter Jane is friends with his family). He went into the hospital and they treated his illness and now he is in remission. He had posted videos on facebook that were inspiring. My wife had seen them on facebook and was very moved by what he had posted and she was showing me.  I have been off facebook for a while.

When he first went into the hospital my daughter Jane texted me to let me know what was going on. I had kept this young man in my prayers.

My daughter Jane sent me a text with a link to one of his videos where he was saying what God had done for him. I replied “that is awesome”

I picked up my phone last night to charge it and I noticed a text was sent to my daughter jane (but I didn’t send it)

My wife texted jane from my phone making it look like I sent it, it said.

(My wife’s name) has really been blessed by him. She has such a tender heart.

My daughter has not responded to that text. My wife is waiting for a response.

Let me say this my wife, was not being nasty.

How do I handle this? The text wasn’t mean or nasty. The problem I thought went away is my wife “using” me to say nice things about her to compel someone to see

the good in her

[Notwendy]

If it is only this one line, I would let it go, because to call attention to it would make it bigger than it is. I don't think the most effective boundary is to speak to your wife, because, she knows she did it. I think the more effective one is to keep the phone locked so she can't.

At times, when my mother ( with BPD) has felt I was critical of her, she would get people to contact me to tell me how wonderful she is. I would out of the blue, get an e mail from her FOO saying they ran into her and she was just wonderful. These are people who do not contact me on a regular basis. Or someone would call me up just to make the point that my mother did something they thought was fantastic. The language in these contacts is also odd. Using adjectives like amazing, wonderful, fantastic, for things that are good, but regular things.

While my mother may not have written or said these things, I can tell from the wording what this is about. I would be willing to bet your D has figured it out. If your D has picked up on the fact that your wife is a bit "off", that is a blessing, it means she has boundaries. I wouldn't mess with my kids' ability to detect that something isn't right. I wish my parents had fostered that for us kids instead of training us to accept my mother's behavior. Remember it is you that chose your wife, and you care about her. Your D doesn't have to.

I have been tempted to address my mother's behavior of having these kinds of messages sent, but IMHO, to address it makes it bigger. She isn't going to stop. Those who buy into it are so connected to her, that I would have no influence on them. Those who are not, see these messages with eye rolling. They know what they are about.

Oh and thank goodness for the wonderful news about that young man's return to health.

[byfaith]

let me ask this without being so wordy

what is the best approach to letting my uBPDw that she is putting me in a very disturbing position using me to make herself appear good, when actually she can be a very caring person.  I want to validate how she feels because I can understand feeling rejected but I cannot control my daughters feelings for my wife nor can I control the method of communication my wife decides to use to try to gain validation from my daughter.

I have suggested in the past, why don't you just call my daughter on the phone to check on her and ask how she is doing? do this every now and then and see how it goes. But no the BPD in her decides to go the way of " do it the best method to protect my feelings" if it does not get the hoped for results

[byfaith]

I would be willing to bet your D has figured it out. If your D has picked up on the fact that your wife is a bit "off", that is a blessing, it means she has boundaries. I wouldn't mess with my kids' ability to detect that something isn't right. I wish my parents had fostered that for us kids instead of training us to accept my mother's behavior. Remember it is you that chose your wife, and you care about her. Your D doesn't have to.

I have been tempted to address my mother's behavior of having these kinds of messages sent, but IMHO, to address it makes it bigger. She isn't going to stop. Those who buy into it are so connected to her, that I would have no influence on them. Those who are not, see these messages with eye rolling. They know what they are about.

Oh and thank goodness for the wonderful news about that young man's return to health.

Dead on... .I believe my daughter knows. I even pictured her rolling her eyes

As I think about this situation toady I may have some more questions. Thank you for your great insight

[Notwendy]

I don't know if you can make her change, because this is how she acts in order to protect herself from the potential rejection of your D. I think that protecting your phone and computer is the better boundary.

Your wife is going to do what she does because this is how she feels safe doing it.

I use my mother as an example because she has IMHO, severe BPD and does so many things that people with BPD do, and I have known her my whole life. I know that if one of her behaviors irritates me that talking to her does very little. The only thing I can do is have boundaries.

My mother talks about my personal things constantly. When she does, she portrays the idea that we are just so close, that I tell her everything. Asking her to stop doing this is asking her to stop doing something that she thinks makes her look good. She isn't going to stop, so if I want something to be confidential, my boundary is to not tell her.

This doesn't stop her. She snoops, pesters, questions to no end. If she visits, she snoops all over the house. Our only defense is to lock up personal things like bank statements, tax info, bills, because she looks.

I think this is what you wish, and it was a wish that my father had: that somehow the relationship between me and my mother was better, that maybe I would see the light and see her the way she saw her, that somehow, she and I would be different. But we are who we are. I don't dislike her. I am just not in love with her, like he was. I can see her good qualities, and I can be respectful of her- "honor your mother", but I know that she has a disorder, and make my own choices about that. Now, my mother didn't like it ( hence the " she is wonderful " messages). My father didn't like it either as he wanted me to feel differently about her. But I am me. Your D is who she is.

[Notwendy]

As an aside, I see my mother's perspective. Her FOO is enmeshed, and the relatives that are her age, know every little detail about their children/grandchildren. When they get together, they share this with each other. The boundaries are loose. However, I want to encourage my kids to have boundaries. I think I am a hands on parent with the big things, but teens have their own private lives too. They are not obligated to tell grandma if they have a crush on someone, or something like that. I do tell my mother general things like if their team wins a game, but she wants more. This is normal to her in the context of her FOO. I understand that she has a poor sense of self to begin with, and wants the rest of her FOO to think that she is a good mother/grandma, and so she seeks out information. I feel sorry for her, but I have to choose to uphold privacy boundaries instead of breaking them to help her with her feelings.


I hope you can see that your wife is doing this from a place of need. She wants your D to think highly of her, but your D has her own thoughts and ideas.

[Lucky Jim]

I hope you can see that your wife is doing this from a place of need. She wants your D to think highly of her, but your D has her own thoughts and ideas.

Hey by faith, agree w/NotWendy (above).  Why don't you just tell your D that you didn't send the message?  Concerning your W, I view this as a boundary issue and suggest you put a PassCode on your phone.

LuckyJim

[byfaith]

I hope you can see that your wife is doing this from a place of need. She wants your D to think highly of her, but your D has her own thoughts and ideas.

I do, that is why I was needing some direction here. I don't want to invalidate my wife feelings.

I hope you can see that your wife is doing this from a place of need. She wants your D to think highly of her, but your D has her own thoughts and ideas.

Hey by faith, agree w/NotWendy (above).  Why don't you just tell your D that you didn't send the message?  Concerning your W, I view this as a boundary issue and suggest you put a PassCode on your phone.

I know most would probably disagree here but I won't passcode my phone. I have nothing to hide. It also would raise questions with my wife that would cause further issues. My ex passcoded her phone which I never went on anyway but it made me feel weird and raised questions. My wife doesn't hide anything from me (that I know of) she may have something hidden from me like I get on these boards that she has no clue or idea about.

I understand though the thought process of locking the phone

[Lucky Jim]

Hey by faith, I hear what you are saying, though I would suggest that boundaries are not about "hiding" something.  Rather, they are about fostering interdependence and maintaining your sense of self.  Your boundaries define who you are, in my view.  I learned the hard way, after my BPDxW trampled my boundaries for years, while I allowed myself to be treated like a doormat.

LuckyJim

[Ceruleanblue]

"People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing". That is sort of my theory. I don't keep secrets from BPDh, and I get why you don't want to pass code your phone. BPDh has his pass coded, but I know the pass code. I've handed my phone over to him before to read my texts, because he was suspicious, without needing to be.

I'd be delighted with the relationship your wife has with your kids. BPDh has four grown kids too, and the three girls hate me, and won't even let BPDh see his grandkids. When he walked out on me, they all flocked right back, but when we reconciled, they withdrew and became very angry. I'm sure he didn't paint me in a good light either. They seem to know that both their parents struggle with some form of PD(they just call it "toxic", but they fail to see how they behave, and that they are passing the cycle along to their kids.

I'd give a lot to have step kids that are even cordial, and for them to stop punishing their Dad for his choice of wife. I'm not the first, nor last healthy person they've painted black, I'm sure.

What sort of relationship is your wife looking for with your daughter? Could she maybe be threatened by your relationship with this daughter?

[byfaith]

What sort of relationship is your wife looking for with your daughter? Could she maybe be threatened by your relationship with this daughter?

this is just a theory... .I believe my wife "admires" my daughters qualities and she just wants to accepted as more than the woman married to my dad. There is some history which I may post later which my wife caused a lot of it. This daughter just does not want to get close to my wife because of my wife's different behaviors. My daughter is making a choice to not be close. I think she goes out of her way to ignore my wife when my wife sends her a nice text etc. I think that's why it hurts my wife.

My wife wants to be part of the grand baby coming here in a few weeks. When my wife tries to attempt to connect, my daughter doesn't. My wife's FOO was messed up bad, bad, bad. I think my wife sees my kids as a hopeful connection to having a normal family in her life, but in the beginning of our relationship things were bad and my wife showed some very upsetting behavior to a few of my kids and I think this daughter has decided to keep her distance but remains nice when necessary. does that make sense? I can't share my thoughts with my wife on this nor do I ask my daughter.

[Notwendy]

Your D may also wish to protect that grandbaby, and I think this is something to respect.

I can identify with your D. I think my mother also saw being a grandmother as an opportunity to recreate herself in a new role, in addition to the typical wishes a grandparent can have - to have a relationship with their grandchild. However, your wife is not the biological or spiritual mother to your D, and your D has no relationship to consider with your wife, other than that she is attached to you. Your D is connected to you, so to some extent, she has to tolerate your relationship, but she has no other reason to even have any relationship with your wife.

My dilemma was that this is my mother, and my child's grandmother, and I wanted my kids to have a relationship with my father. In addition, I feel a spiritual obligation to "honor my parents" to the extent that I can. My parents' wishes were for me to indulge my mother's wishes. I could not honor that if it meant putting my kids at risk.

One solution was that my mother was not ever alone with them, and I didn't leave the kids with them as "babysitters". I didn't worry she would overtly harm them, but I didn't trust her to respect their emotional boundaries.

The point I was trying to make is that, I was motivated to facilitate a relationship between my kids and my mother if possible. However, your D has no obligation to do this, even if your wish is that she would.

This was a breaking point for me and my family. My mother wanted more access to the kids. This is understandable as her peers and FOO were spending time alone, doing fun things with their grandkids and babysitting them while the parents had time to themselves. But I will not leave my kids with someone I do not trust. Neither will your D.

I said no. My parents got angry at me. When this happens, typically my mother would paint me black, put my dad in the position to choose her over me. He did. But when I was put in the position of having to choose my children's welfare over my parents' happiness ( ie doing whatever mom wanted me to do), I chose my children. It was a painful choice, but the only one that I felt was best for them.

Your D is  in a similar position that I was in. I love my dad, and I wanted my kids to know him. But I didn't entirely trust my mother. My parents didn't consider my feelings. They wanted what they wanted, ( like your wife). However, consider that, if your D is willing to have you be a part of the baby's life, it is because of her love for you but her boundaries with your wife are there in part, because of her wish to protect her child. It is gracious on her part to include a person she doesn't even like. Trying to push her for more than this could push her into a corner where she feels she has to choose.

[Notwendy]

I know that relationships are different, and people make choices between them, but I also wanted to comment on the "people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing" statement. This is an ideal, something we all would wish for, but in some circumstances, we may need stronger boundaries.

There are people who break boundaries, and we can take measures on that. Pretending to be someone else on their phone is a violation of a boundary. Ideally, we wouldn't have locks on our homes. We don't need a lock to keep our friends and neighbors out. We need locks to keep people who violate boundaries out. Ideally, I wouldn't need to hide personal things in my house from my mother, but since she violates personal boundaries, the only solution is to lock them up. Not because there is something sneaky or something to be hidden, but because I value our privacy.

The only way to insure that your wife won't text as you, is to lock the phone. You can choose not to do this, but then, there is always that possibility as your wife will choose to do what she wishes.

[formflier]

 

Hey, maybe I missed it.

How often does your wife pretend to be you and text?

If it has happened once, then maybe let it go.


Or perhaps mention it to clarify who sent the text.

I lock my phone, my wife sends all kinds of stuff from my account (when she gets access) it is what she does.  I'm not going to talk her out of it.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

I agree, Notwendy.  In an ideal world, maybe there would be no reason to employ boundaries, but those w/BPD don't respect boundaries due to their disorder, so in my view one has to take extra measures when a pwBPD is involved.  For example, my BPDxW didn't believe in taking medication, with the result that she once flushed my Rx down the toilet, which was unacceptable to me.  I need my Rx, prescribed by my doctor, for a specific medical condition.  As a result, I had to "hide" my Rx by keeping it in my desk at my office.  I view that as an example of a necessary boundary and don't consider it "hiding" anything.  Same goes for my phone and laptop, and my need for a PassCode.

I have a new friend who respects my boundaries and would never consider using my cell phone.  Nevertheless, I keep a passcode on it as a boundary that protects me.

LuckyJim

[Notwendy]

My H and I both have passcodes. I didn't even question it. We use the phones for personal and for work. Even though we are married, we are each individuals with our own activities. Sure, we have met each others co-workers but don't think it is necessary or appropriate to be privvy to each conversation.

I have a passcode because, it is part of my boundary between what is "me" and what is "not me". I am married, but I am "me" and my H is "him" not me. It's not for hiding anything. Honestly, if it was at that point, the passcode would not be the main problem or deterrent. One can buy any number of phones and keep them private.

[Lucky Jim]

Totally agree, Notwendy.  I think it's easy to let boundaries slip in a BPD r/s, with the result that a "blurring of the lines" occurs between what is oneself and what is one's BPD SO.  Like you, I think it's important to keep straight what is "me" and what is "not me."  It actually makes life easier, in my view.

LuckyJim

[byfaith]

I understand what you both are saying. I am really thinking about it. Right now other issues have come up which involve me enforcing a boundary and she is kicking bad. I am trying to hold my crap together.

It has to do with me walking away from a situation last night that was escalating and taking a drive for about 15 minutes. I am paying the price today but not caving to her demands.

as of right now she is going to bail out on our first MC session wed.

[KateCat]

Greetings, by faith.

I think you are getting excellent counsel on this thread. Reading through a few of your earlier posts, I am struck by the fact that you are a man of Christian faith and that your wife has been married five times before her marriage with you.

So, you will really, really need a good grasp of boundaries  , and there's an excellent counseling duo of Townsend and Cloud who deliver this method in a practical, no-nonsense, and mainstream Christian format. Though not a member of your faith myself, I highly recommend any of their works. Here's a discussion of one:

www.faithgateway.com/boundaries-when-to-say-yes-say-no/#.VtSawDbSmbg

[formflier]

as of right now she is going to bail out on our first MC session wed.

Let her bail.  You don't control her, you only control you.

YOU go to the MC session and plan on keep going for a few times.  You make your choices, she makes her choices.

I advise that you wear her anger like a "badge of honor".  She is bumping up against your boundaries and doesn't like it.  From what I am reading, I think you are doing it right, so hold fast.

Can you tell us more details about you deciding to take a drive?  Just want to make sure.

Hang in there man!

FF

[byfaith]

FF,

on the MC I cancelled the wed appointment because she said she wasn't going. What she did was gave me an ultimatum yesterday via text,

her: I won't go to counseling with you while you are treating me this way, so address this NOW with me or go alone and I'll leave for alabama sooner. ( she was planning to visit her mom)

I was walking down a busy road on my lunch break when I got the text. I texted back 16 minute later and said "I will call you in a little bit"

Her: now or forget it.

I did not respond because I was walking to my destination and she sent this "Ok then. have it your way."

at that point I decided I wasn't going to try to change her mind.

when I got home that night I asked her if she was going to go so I could cancel or keep the appointment, that is the only reason I need to know. She said "I left that decision up to you"

I just said in a calm voice " you gave me an ultimatum"

she said " and I know how you don't like to be told what to do"

I said, "no I just don't like being backed into a corner"

this was all said in a calm from here and me.

anyway I cancelled but then after reading your reply I decided to reschedule. His first opening is on friday so I took it but now she is going to be out of town. When I told her this morning I rescheduled it for friday she asked me why and I told her because she didn't want to go to our first appointment. It was left at that but she acted like she was being left out     

[formflier]

In my experience, my wife has threatened not to go to many appointments.  I tried to validate, listen and all that.

But I didn't debate it. 

Let her know she has a choice and you have a choice.  You are making a choice to work on your side of the marriage dynamic and will be there.

Now, we have cancelled and rescheduled many appointments, but those were for "legitimate" reasons, sickness, "real" emergencies.

I have also experienced my wife quitting therapy.  It was very different than the threats. 

Unfortunately it is likely you will get lots of experience with this, you will learn to tell the difference.

OK, on the make the decision right now thing.  I stated that I had just heard of the problem and that I needed time to process it and had a different point of view than my wife has.  Usually I would try to get info from her about how long she has known about something, then tell her something like "you have been thinking about this for 3 days, I have known about this for 3 minutes, please have consideration for my need for time to process this." 

Hope this helps.

FF

[byfaith]

FF,

Your opinion... .would it be best for me to keep my Friday MC appointment without her?  Even if she had a change of heart she would not be able to go Friday because she will not be here.

Maybe I should get to the point where I ask her to schedule the next one to see if she is serious? I think I have my limit of 3 at the most by myself.


I will be posting a new topic on boundaries... .I am struggling to understand them totally, can we set boundaries that go too far?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey bf, I suggest that you go to the MC appointment without her.  If she's serious about participating, she can attend the next session.  In the meantime, I think it will be worthwhile for you to "get the ball rolling."  You may catch hell for doing it, but so what?  She's the one who said that she wouldn't go, while at the same time giving you an ultimatum as a means to manipulate your behavior.  You handled it well, I have to say, because it's hard to think straight when you're under the gun, so-to-speak.

LuckyJim