Dealing with the guilt now of having her gone from my place

[paperlung]

I made a thread here a few days ago saying how I needed my diagnosed ex-girlfriend to find somewhere else to go because she wanted to go out and hook up with random guys off Tinder and find a 'domdaddy' to have sex with. This wouldn't have been a problem for me if I didn't have feelings for her still, but I do. I love her. So watching her do this caused me a lot of stress, anxiety, and jealously. I felt it was best she went and lived elsewhere to do this. The tricky part was she didn't have anywhere else to go (in her words). She technically could've gone back to stay with her dad or sister, but she said she'd rather be homeless than do that again.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290812.0

Well, the following morning on the 25th, after her Tinder hook-up, I told her through text that she needed to come by my place to get all her things and go. She called me a bit later and guilt tripped me, thanking me for ruining her life and how she'll now be living out of a hotel trying to make money by adult camming in hopes of eventually finding her own place. Well, the guilt trip it worked. I sent her text shortly after our phone conversation saying not to come by my place to get her things just yet because I needed some time to think. She called back asking what I meant and I explained to her that I didn't want her to do THAT (live in a hotel and cam) so I said she can stay and that I'll chill out on her wanting to go out and have casual sex. She comes back to my place.

I tell her that night that things are going to have to change if she wants to stay here. She'd have to start doing more for herself because before I was doing everything for her. I'd have go out and get her take-out food if she was hungry, take her grocery shopping, clothes shopping, take her to appointments, pay for her therapy... .I also told her we could no longer be as intimate as we were the first week she came to stay because that's caused me to catch strong feelings for her again. She tells me, "Then what's the point of me staying here then? I might as well live on my own!"

The following morning she tells me how she hates her life, wants to do something with it. She was also frustrated that she hasn't been able to film any videos for her YouTube channel at my place because it's too noisy. So she thought it would be a good idea to spend $130 for one night at hotel so that she could make new content. I was a little unsure of the idea because it was a lot of money to spend to try and make money, but she wanted to, so... .

She tried to call and get a room using her credit card but it was declined, so she wanted me to call back and do it using my card. I would then have to drive her to the hotel and check her in. Before I was about to do this, she causally mentions how the guy she hooked up with the other night was going to come by later and spend the night with her in the hotel. This gets me mad and I tell her that he can come pick her up then from my place, drive her to the hotel, and check her in himself. She gets mad at me, says I'm being jealous and immature and to just take her there myself because he will be a while. I tell her no and then say some things that I'm not proud like "I'm going to make your life here [at my place] hell" in a desperate attempt to push her away from me.

Well, it worked. She took what I said pretty seriously. Told me she was tired of my emotional abuse and crazy behavior. She packed her things and left with him that Friday night.

The following day, I went to visit my grandparents who I am very close with. My ex sends me a text in the afternoon asking if we could please talk. I ignore it. I felt too ashamed and tired to talk to her in that moment. My phone then rings. I then turn my phone off for a few hours and relax.

Later that night I check my email and see she sent me one. She says she I knows I blocked her number (I didn't) and that she's now living in a hotel in the city (close to her new guy from she met off Tinder). This guy she just met is basically her support now. He apparently just got out of a 6-year relationship, so he's got his hands full now trying to help my ex. I not only her, but him luck as well. Maybe it's for the best she has someone help her who doesn't have a past with her like I do.

I don't regret feeling the way I did when she told me she wanted to go out and have sex with guys she doesn't even know or about this 'domdaddy' stuff. The fact of the matter is, I have feelings for her still. I worry about her. I care about her. I love her. I can't help that. I wish I was indifferent towards her because then she could've just stayed at my place and I could've helped her when she needed it, but alas... .

I do regret lashing out at her though. I don't think I'm actually crazy like she says, she even knows I was perfectly fine with her at my place until this 'domdaddy' stuff came to light. I don't know if I have a problem or if it's just a thing with my ex because I don't act that way AT ALL with anybody else.

She thinks she didn't lead me on while she was here, but no. No, no, no. She did. She told me she loved me three separate times, asked to date me again, and brought up marriage to me! The time we spent together felt like we were a couple again. The way she touched me in bed, kissed me... .There's just no way. Unless, of course, she felt it in those moments and then they just went away. That's defiantly plausible with her because she never knows what she wants. She's always changing her mind.

The whole thing was doomed to fail from the start. I had my BPD cheating ex-girlfriend living with me, and I still resent her for that a bit and have trouble trusting her, yet I still love her and wish things were different. I wanted to help her, but I let my feelings get in the way. I couldn't be indifferent. And now she hates me. I was the only person in her miserable, lonely life she thought she could trust and feel safe with and FAILED her.

[thisworld]

Paperlung hi

Thank you for sharing your feelings and opinions with candor, your feelings and story resonate with many people here. I, for one, had to ask my ex-boyfriend to leave the house a couple of days after he came out of a reanimation unit because of emotional cheating (we didn't have a "domdaddy" but an "online harem" ), he was totally dysfunctional at the time and didn't have anywhere else to live. His mother didn't want him around her house, but ultimately accepted her. Sure, he hates it but luckily he has a roof over his head. A lot of people asked their partners to leave under very difficult circumstances. Nobody likes it, we all feel guilt, but ultimately we all have to make the responsible choice for our own self-preservation through our boundaries. That's all we can control and if we go beyond that boundary, it usually doesn't help anyone.

It's obvious from your post that you are a goodhearted person who wants to help his ex girlfriend - perhaps to his own emotional detriment. You are a generous person who seems to value solidarity Paperlung.  But you openly admit your feelings for her and they seem to be getting in the way. What you would like to provide seems to contradict with what you want or can tolerate at this point in your life. This is so understandable. But it seems that, when this happens, you are not proud of your own reactions. That also happens when we don't watch our boundaries (it's not only about stating them but owning them and honoring them with our actions). If we don't watch our boundaries (this is not just about what we expect from others), we slowly turn into someone we don't like. I experienced that for around 5 years in my twenties and it was not nice at all. When we own and honour our own boundaries, we stop disappointing ourselves and that's a good feeling.     

Some questions: Did you agree on your co-habiting conditions with your ex girlfriend beforehand, agree on mutual boundaries (they need to make both people safe) and then violated them mutually? Or did you discover what you could and could not handle on the way? 

In either case, how can you live so that your actions both satisfy your needs and make you happy with what you can or cannot offer to others? How can you balance your rescuing tendencies with your own emotional security? Or, if watching someone you still love have other relationships is causing you pain, how can you detach and protect your boundaries better in the future so other actions do not result in this again? As Driver says in the other thread, pwBPD are not good with boundaries in some senses and our wellbeing and emotional security are our responsibility anyway. And sometimes, unfortunately we learn that one little action is perceived as something that justifies asking for more.     

Without self-preservation we cannot help others no matter how much we want it.

The article below has helped me a lot at one point (maybe you have already seen it)

Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order

As for failing her, we all know how abandonment is triggered in pwBPD due to perceived or real acts. This is very unfortunate but is a part of the disorder. Still, yes, if we are clear in terms of what we do, we may do our best to avoid situations like this. You seem to have accepted a role of emotional and otherwise caretaking for your ex.

May I ask what you are expecting from this? And how long are you ready to do this for? For instance, if you have another relationship with a new person whom you love and who loves you, will you be still doing this caretaking at the cost of your future happiness? Would you like a potential girlfriend to be involved with their ex to this degree? I'm asking this because caretaking and rescuing are not bad things in themselves but they are demanding (you may have to radically accept your friend's sexual relations with others and you may have to give up on future happiness gor yourself - as many people do not like being involved with anyone else's caretaker.)

Unless we are ready to be fully committed for this role (and with radical acceptance), maybe it's better not to give anyone the feeling that we can do it. Also, we should not try doing it at the cost of our own emotional and otherwise safety because it doesn't help anybody. Sometimes, detaching lovingly is as helpful because it gives our loved ones a chance to grow and helps our self preservation.

Thank you for this very open and helpful post again. There are so many things here that resonate with so many of us. You have voiced so many feelings that most of us share and are questioning in ourselves. 

Looking forward to hearing your vision about your future.     

Stay strong!

[paperlung]

Thanks for the reply, thisworld. I see you can relate to my situation somewhat.

Some questions: Did you agree on your co-habiting conditions with your ex girlfriend beforehand, agree on mutual boundaries (they need to make both people safe) and then violated them mutually? Or did you discover what you could and could not handle on the way?

 

No, I did not set any ground rules before my ex came to live with me and my family. That was my mistake, but it all happened so fast.

After leaving her dad's place (which she has done countless times), my ex tried staying with her sister (who's pregnant) and her sister's boyfriend (who is actually crazy and dangerous) for a week and was sleeping on their couch. She eventually decided she couldn't take it anymore and opted to go back to her dad's place. I didn't want her to back for many different reasons. She just lets herself rot away at her dad's. She won't feed herself, she hardly sleeps, she takes off some nights to have unprotected sex with strangers, and sometimes self-harms. She pretty much told me she would go back to her dad's to eventually die/kill herself. I panicked and then I begged her to come stay with me and my family. The next day her sister dropped her off at my house with all her luggage.

Almost immediately her behavior improved. She was going to sleep and waking up at a normal time, she was eating, and most importantly, she was happier. She finally felt like she was living somewhere safe and with someone (me) who she could trust that was willing to help her out in any way possible.

The problem was, yeah, there were no boundaries. She was sleeping on my bedroom floor on a mattress, but most of the time she wanted to sleep in my single bed with me because she's "needy". So we'd end of cuddling in my bed together sometimes and do other intimate things. I was basically with her all the time if I wasn't at class.

I never really considered the fact that she would want to start up her Tinder again and find herself a 'domdaddy' to have sex with while living with me. One reason I thought she wouldn't was because before I even told her she could come stay with me, she mentioned how she deactivated her Tinder because "no good ever came from it" and that she was "too tired/exhausted" to deal with men anymore. I believed her. I mean, she had gone through 6 or 7 boyfriends in just the past year alone (not including her one-night-stands). I thought she had finally realized that this lifestyle wasn't healthy (she's going to be 25 this year!) and would just be detrimental/counterproductive to her getting better (I'm the one who was paying for her therapy and taking her to and from it, after all).

In either case, how can you live so that your actions both satisfy your needs and make you happy with what you can or cannot offer to others? How can you balance your rescuing tendencies with your own emotional security? Or, if watching someone you still love have other relationships is causing you pain, how can you detach and protect your boundaries better in the future so other actions do not result in this again? As Driver says in the other thread, pwBPD are not good with boundaries in some senses and our wellbeing and emotional security are our responsibility anyway. And sometimes, unfortunately we learn that one little action is perceived as something that justifies asking for more.      

Without self-preservation we cannot help others no matter how much we want it.

The article below has helped me a lot at one point (maybe you have already seen it)

Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order

She had been at my house for about a week already before I found out about this 'domdaddy' stuff. I tried to her how it affected me but she just didn't care. She called me controlling for not letting her go out and meet guys. Keep in mind, I NEVER said ANYTHING like, "You can't go out and do that! You have stay put in my house!" All I did was tell her that it made me feel uncomfortable and that it would probably be best if she went elsewhere to pursue her sexual fantasies. "But you know I have nowhere else to go! And you said I could stay here!" is what she would say. Technically, she could've gone back to her dad's, or to her sister's, or even to her ex-boyfriend's (although he's an alcoholic and they argue a lot apparently). So as you can see, I was in a really tough position.

I'll check out that article, thanks.

As for failing her, we all know how abandonment is triggered in pwBPD due to perceived or real acts. This is very unfortunate but is a part of the disorder. Still, yes, if we are clear in terms of what we do, we may do our best to avoid situations like this. You seem to have accepted a role of emotional and otherwise caretaking for your ex.

May I ask what you are expecting from this? And how long are you ready to do this for? For instance, if you have another relationship with a new person whom you love and who loves you, will you be still doing this caretaking at the cost of your future happiness? Would you like a potential girlfriend to be involved with their ex to this degree? I'm asking this because caretaking and rescuing are not bad things in themselves but they are demanding (you may have to radically accept your friend's sexual relations with others and you may have to give up on future happiness gor yourself - as many people do not like being involved with anyone else's caretaker.)

I don't really know myself what I was expecting from it. She needed a place to stay. A place where she could feel safe with someone who was willing to help her out. I didn't know how long it would be, and that did bother me bit. Yeah, she was getting therapy (thanks to me) but for how long was that going to be until she got "better"? Was I going to house her 3 months? 6 months? I had no idea. She definitely couldn't afford a place of her own. Her only source of income was YouTube and welfare, and unless her YouTube channel really exploded in popularity, there was no way she was ever going to make enough to support herself entirely. This is why I suggested to her that maybe she should apply for disability because she can't work a normal job. She just has too many different things wrong with her that prevent her from functioning like a normal adult.

I don't know what other women with BPD are like, by my ex acts like a child or a little girl. She identifies as a 'little' which is the other half of this 'daddy' thing. She basically WANTS to be looked after. She doesn't want to have responsibilities. Even when we dated she was like this, although she wasn't aware back then that she was a 'little'. But my God, when she was here I would have to get her everything. She'd lay in the bed and be like, "Paperlung, can we get me water. Paperlung, can you grab my purse and get my chapstick. Paperlung, can you grab my food? Paperlung, can you get my blanket? Paperlung, can you do this? Paperlung, can you do that?" It's ridiculous!

She said to me how she would be screwed without my help or would've probably killed herself by now without me. And I kid you not, she even told me that I wasn't allowed to get a girlfriend until she got better! A bit later she said she was just joking when I brought that statement up to her, but I don't know... .there was definitely some truth to that. She always does that. Says something to me like "I love you" or "Want to date again?" or "Let's get married one day" and then completely downplays later as if she wasn't being serious at all.

I guess my hope for her was that she would live with me and my family, I would support her, she would go to therapy weekly, and she would grow her YouTube channel until she was able to make enough money to afford a place of her own. I guess I was just too naive to think she wouldn't want to date/sleep around on the side. And as it turns out, I was bothered by that.

Unless we are ready to be fully committed for this role (and with radical acceptance), maybe it's better not to give anyone the feeling that we can do it. Also, we should not try doing it at the cost of our own emotional and otherwise safety because it doesn't help anybody. Sometimes, detaching lovingly is as helpful because it gives our loved ones a chance to grow and helps our self preservation.

As it stands now, she's living out of a hotel in the city nearby that guy she just met off Tinder. She uploaded a video on YouTube telling all her fans/subscribers that she's homeless at the moment. She got A LOT of donations from that video. She didn't ask for it, but she did. Pretty sure she's received at least a couple thousand dollars already, so financially... .she's OK for the time being.

[thisworld]

Paperlung hi

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Here is my two cents:

No, I did not set any ground rules before my ex came to live with me and my family. That was my mistake, but it all happened so fast.

It's good to accept our role and participation in what happens in our lives; in the end of the day, yes, that is our responsibility. I wouldn't see this as a huge mistake, either. It sounds more like a learning experience to me. I mean, when we try to build certain boundaries in advance, we do so from what we know in our own world. The stuff beyond that may not occur to us. Basically, we get to discover that certain things do happen in life when we get to see them from other people. So, it seems that certain things that did not occur to you happened to you. You didn't think a boundary like "No "domdaddy" while staying here would be needed. That happens a lot. With experience in life, we get to predict certain things that may happen, we stop projecting, and we also discover that no matter how you put very basic things into written contract with someone, they will find a way to break it in a very creative way! (Passive aggressive personalities are know for this.) If I happened to live together with my ex as a friend and if it were my house, this boundary would occur to me immediately because of the way he was in our relationship. You can look back on your relationship, evaluate whether this could be realistically expected or was a complete surprise. I think that would be a good experience of growth.

But what matters now is that now you know that this behaviour is there. What are you going to do with this knowledge to avoid heartbreak like this in the future (not only in terms of co-habiting but in general actually)?

I didn't want her to back for many different reasons. She just lets herself rot away at her dad's. She won't feed herself, she hardly sleeps, she takes off some nights to have unprotected sex with strangers, and sometimes self-harms. She pretty much told me she would go back to her dad's to eventually die/kill herself. I panicked and then I begged her to come stay with me and my family. The next day her sister dropped her off at my house with all her luggage.

I can understand how you feel. It sure does pain us when a person we love does not live up to their potential (as we believe it to be) or does not live in accord with what we think is a good life. But again, where are the boundaries as what you are talking about is very basic self-care. If a person cannot do it on their own, they need to learn it basically. IMHO, if we think, as exes-now-friends, it's our duty to feed someone, tuck them in bed, ensure that they use a condom with strangers (ultimately, we have no say on their sex life), that is enabling the lack of growth. It is treating them like someone incapable and that hinders growth. Plus, realistically, what can you do about the last one? It seems to me that you need to accept the fact that your ex-girlfriend-now-friend may not share the same lifestyle as you do. One question: Why do you think she shares her unsafe sexual encounters with you?     

Almost immediately her behavior improved. She was going to sleep and waking up at a normal time, she was eating, and most importantly, she was happier. She finally felt like she was living somewhere safe and with someone (me) who she could trust that was willing to help her out in any way possible.

My ex immediately gets happier when he isn't living with his mother. He starts living a more orderly life than before. (In our case, this is about the immediate need for acceptance and the identity he projects for a while, but it's not sustainable.) In our example, this is also more about what he "likes" and "doesn't like" rather than being safe and unsafe. I don't know about the particulars of your situation. When people we like are unsafe, it's very normal to want to help them. But if this turns into something that is detrimental to our emotional safety and life (look at the shift from this life in a house to sending you to grocery shopping, to this and that in your house) then we need to find solutions that are outside our safe place, don't we? I mean imagine having two friends in dire need, having both in your house and then trying to look after them this way. In the awareness forum, we once discussed the difference between caring for someone, caring about someone and taking care of someone. Thinking about those helped me a lot.

The problem was, yeah, there were no boundaries. She was sleeping on my bedroom floor on a mattress, but most of the time she wanted to sleep in my single bed with me because she's "needy". So we'd end of cuddling in my bed together sometimes and do other intimate things. I was basically with her all the time if I wasn't at class.

When you loo back on this. What did this serve in the end? How did the result affect you? Especially in relation with the "domdaddy" thing? Can you read this in terms of boundaries, identities (friend, ex etc) and the effect on your feelings?

I never really considered the fact that she would want to start up her Tinder again and find herself a 'domdaddy' to have sex with while living with me. One reason I thought she wouldn't was because before I even told her she could come stay with me, she mentioned how she deactivated her Tinder because "no good ever came from it" and that she was "too tired/exhausted" to deal with men anymore. I believed her. I mean, she had gone through 6 or 7 boyfriends in just the past year alone (not including her one-night-stands). I thought she had finally realized that this lifestyle wasn't healthy (she's going to be 25 this year!) and would just be detrimental/counterproductive to her getting better (I'm the one who was paying for her therapy and taking her to and from it, after all).

Oh, this is my soft spot! This is exactly what causes my demise in some relationships. People tell something, you explain the meaning in your head without asking them what they actually mean. You believe your own explanation without confirming. For instance, someone else (obviously not me:)) may ask, "but you were doing so and so last year" and really listen to their gut. Do you remember how your gut felt at that time?

And OK. Now you have learnt it. Your ex girlfriend is able to get tired/exhausted of men but then start looking for a "domdaddy". Can you accept this reality? How do you feel in terms of accepting it? 

She had been at my house for about a week already before I found out about this 'domdaddy' stuff. I tried to her how it affected me but she just didn't care. She called me controlling for not letting her go out and meet guys. Keep in mind, I NEVER said ANYTHING like, "You can't go out and do that! You have stay put in my house!" All I did was tell her that it made me feel uncomfortable and that it would probably be best if she went elsewhere to pursue her sexual fantasies. "But you know I have nowhere else to go! And you said I could stay here!" is what she would say. Technically, she could've gone back to her dad's, or to her sister's, or even to her ex-boyfriend's (although he's an alcoholic and they argue a lot apparently). So as you can see, I was in a really tough position.

So, in this post, you are both saving her from her dad's place and saying that going back to that place is a solution. Is that a bad place when you think you may have something close with her or when you can become "the rescuer" and a relatively OK good place when you don't want to rescue anymore because of different expectations in terms of intimate things? You need to clarify your boundaries, your own stand in this. The rest is again, yes, blurry. From her perspective, it seems that she could do intimate things with you but didn't feel accountable to you. Perhaps your understanding was different? 

My experience with my BPD ex was like this (when we were still partners): He perceived living together with me as me rescuing him, I perceived it as we were co-habiting. When he was happy, basically he was happy like a child/teenager rather than an adult and I felt like I was being treated like a "mommy" rather than an adult partner. What does your happy teenager do? He goes on the internet and chats with girls naughtily:)) There you go, that's what happened to me:))


I don't really know myself what I was expecting from it. She needed a place to stay. A place where she could feel safe with someone who was willing to help her out. I didn't know how long it would be, and that did bother me bit. Yeah, she was getting therapy (thanks to me) but for how long was that going to be until she got "better"? Was I going to house her 3 months? 6 months? I had no idea. She definitely couldn't afford a place of her own. Her only source of income was YouTube and welfare, and unless her YouTube channel really exploded in popularity, there was no way she was ever going to make enough to support herself entirely. This is why I suggested to her that maybe she should apply for disability because she can't work a normal job. She just has too many different things wrong with her that prevent her from functioning like a normal adult.

How would you like to act in the future?

I don't know what other women with BPD are like, by my ex acts like a child or a little girl. She identifies as a 'little' which is the other half of this 'daddy' thing. She basically WANTS to be looked after. She doesn't want to have responsibilities. Even when we dated she was like this, although she wasn't aware back then that she was a 'little'. But my God, when she was here I would have to get her everything. She'd lay in the bed and be like, "Paperlung, can we get me water. Paperlung, can you grab my purse and get my chapstick. Paperlung, can you grab my food? Paperlung, can you get my blanket? Paperlung, can you do this? Paperlung, can you do that?" It's ridiculous!

It is ridiculous. What did you do when someone was asking for ridiculous things?

She said to me how she would be screwed without my help or would've probably killed herself by now without me. And I kid you not, she even told me that I wasn't allowed to get a girlfriend until she got better! A bit later she said she was just joking when I brought that statement up to her, but I don't know... .there was definitely some truth to that. She always does that. Says something to me like "I love you" or "Want to date again?" or "Let's get married one day" and then completely downplays later as if she wasn't being serious at all.

A lot of people here have experienced this. How do you interpret this in the framework of BPD? Which part of this, do you have a bigger problem with?

I guess my hope for her was that she would live with me and my family, I would support her, she would go to therapy weekly, and she would grow her YouTube channel until she was able to make enough money to afford a place of her own. I guess I was just too naive to think she wouldn't want to date/sleep around on the side. And as it turns out, I was bothered by that.

A lot of people would be bothered by that under your circumstances.

As it stands now, she's living out of a hotel in the city nearby that guy she just met off Tinder. She uploaded a video on YouTube telling all her fans/subscribers that she's homeless at the moment. She got A LOT of donations from that video. She didn't ask for it, but she did. Pretty sure she's received at least a couple thousand dollars already, so financially... .she's OK for the time being.

You seem to mention her financial situation a couple of times. Again, how about you? Where do you see yourself in life? What are your plans for yourself?

Best,

TW

[paperlung]

Paperlung hi

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Here is my two cents:

No, I did not set any ground rules before my ex came to live with me and my family. That was my mistake, but it all happened so fast.

It's good to accept our role and participation in what happens in our lives; in the end of the day, yes, that is our responsibility. I wouldn't see this as a huge mistake, either. It sounds more like a learning experience to me. I mean, when we try to build certain boundaries in advance, we do so from what we know in our own world. The stuff beyond that may not occur to us. Basically, we get to discover that certain things do happen in life when we get to see them from other people. So, it seems that certain things that did not occur to you happened to you. You didn't think a boundary like "No "domdaddy" while staying here would be needed. That happens a lot. With experience in life, we get to predict certain things that may happen, we stop projecting, and we also discover that no matter how you put very basic things into written contract with someone, they will find a way to break it in a very creative way! (Passive aggressive personalities are know for this.) If I happened to live together with my ex as a friend and if it were my house, this boundary would occur to me immediately because of the way he was in our relationship. You can look back on your relationship, evaluate whether this could be realistically expected or was a complete surprise. I think that would be a good experience of growth.

But what matters now is that now you know that this behaviour is there. What are you going to do with this knowledge to avoid heartbreak like this in the future (not only in terms of co-habiting but in general actually)?

Well, she's out of my life now... .again. The fist time was after we broke up (didn't speak to her for an entire year), and the second time was last year when she moved out of her dad's place thinking it was a good idea when it wasn't (didn't speak to her for over a month). This time feels different, though. I feel like after what's happened recently, I've really soured on her. I don't expect to hear from her again for a long time, and I'm OK with that. Hopefully if/when she contacts me again, I'll be too occupied to care. Doubtful, though.

I was of the belief that she was finally past her promiscuous escapades and monthly relationships because she had spent all of 2015 doing that and it got her nowhere. The only good thing she did for herself was finally getting diagnosed with BPD last Summer after years of denial, thanks to my help; I was able to get her a family doctor and psychiatrist to see. So yeah, I guess you could say I was a little surprised. Guess she's just not ready to give up that lifestyle yet.

I didn't want her to back for many different reasons. She just lets herself rot away at her dad's. She won't feed herself, she hardly sleeps, she takes off some nights to have unprotected sex with strangers, and sometimes self-harms. She pretty much told me she would go back to her dad's to eventually die/kill herself. I panicked and then I begged her to come stay with me and my family. The next day her sister dropped her off at my house with all her luggage.

I can understand how you feel. It sure does pain us when a person we love does not live up to their potential (as we believe it to be) or does not live in accord with what we think is a good life. But again, where are the boundaries as what you are talking about is very basic self-care. If a person cannot do it on their own, they need to learn it basically. IMHO, if we think, as exes-now-friends, it's our duty to feed someone, tuck them in bed, ensure that they use a condom with strangers (ultimately, we have no say on their sex life), that is enabling the lack of growth. It is treating them like someone incapable and that hinders growth. Plus, realistically, what can you do about the last one? It seems to me that you need to accept the fact that your ex-girlfriend-now-friend may not share the same lifestyle as you do. One question: Why do you think she shares her unsafe sexual encounters with you?

After my ex returned the following day from her Tinder hookup and I told her she could stay, I did disclose some new boundaries with her. I told her that I would no longer run out every time she wanted take-out because she hadn't fed herself. I also told her she would have to start walking up to the grocery store and clinic herself sometimes. Also, she would have to start paying for her own therapy unless she had absolutely no money. And you know what she said to me, "What's the point of me even staying here then? I might as well live on my own! Even my friend [the Tinder guy she had just met and only once] said that if you're not going to help me, I shouldn't stay."

I don't think my ex wants to be an adult. She associates herself as a 'little' now for a reason. She likes being taken care. I also think she isn't very good at doing it herself. When she moved out of her dad's place a year ago, I went to visit her a month after she moved in and had her nervous breakdown, and her place... .well, she never even unpacked anything! All her boxes were full of stuff, still sitting in the kitchen.

As for why she shares her sexual encounters with me... .I honestly don't know. She's just very open about it.

The problem was, yeah, there were no boundaries. She was sleeping on my bedroom floor on a mattress, but most of the time she wanted to sleep in my single bed with me because she's "needy". So we'd end of cuddling in my bed together sometimes and do other intimate things. I was basically with her all the time if I wasn't at class.

When you loo back on this. What did this serve in the end? How did the result affect you? Especially in relation with the "domdaddy" thing? Can you read this in terms of boundaries, identities (friend, ex etc) and the effect on your feelings?

It served to remind me that I still love her and care about her deeply, even though I did have a tendency to blurt out some mean things when I was feeling angry/anxious/jealous/frustrated that she wasn't being what I wanted her to be. When her BPD isn't pronounced, she is lovely to be around. Everything was going well until I found out about the 'domdaddy' stuff, after all. She claims that she has been searching for one for a long time, but it was news to me.

[paperlung]

I never really considered the fact that she would want to start up her Tinder again and find herself a 'domdaddy' to have sex with while living with me. One reason I thought she wouldn't was because before I even told her she could come stay with me, she mentioned how she deactivated her Tinder because "no good ever came from it" and that she was "too tired/exhausted" to deal with men anymore. I believed her. I mean, she had gone through 6 or 7 boyfriends in just the past year alone (not including her one-night-stands). I thought she had finally realized that this lifestyle wasn't healthy (she's going to be 25 this year!) and would just be detrimental/counterproductive to her getting better (I'm the one who was paying for her therapy and taking her to and from it, after all).

And OK. Now you have learnt it. Your ex girlfriend is able to get tired/exhausted of men but then start looking for a "domdaddy". Can you accept this reality? How do you feel in terms of accepting it?

Her excuse as to why she gets bored easily is because they aren't real 'domdaddies' and cannot fulfill her desires both in and outside of the bedroom. I can totally accept this reality. I am not a 'domdaddy' nor do I want to be one, therefore she and I are incompatible. She's acknowledged my nurturing and caretaking as good 'daddy' traits, but I don't want to be with someone who associates as a 'little'. I want a mature, give-and-take relationship with a woman who doesn't see herself as inferior to me and is capable of being an independent adult. Helping my ex does bring me pleasure/happiness, though. I just wish she was more a little more independent. I'm starting to truly believe now she just doesn't want to be, so why even bother.

She had been at my house for about a week already before I found out about this 'domdaddy' stuff. I tried to her how it affected me but she just didn't care. She called me controlling for not letting her go out and meet guys. Keep in mind, I NEVER said ANYTHING like, "You can't go out and do that! You have stay put in my house!" All I did was tell her that it made me feel uncomfortable and that it would probably be best if she went elsewhere to pursue her sexual fantasies. "But you know I have nowhere else to go! And you said I could stay here!" is what she would say. Technically, she could've gone back to her dad's, or to her sister's, or even to her ex-boyfriend's (although he's an alcoholic and they argue a lot apparently). So as you can see, I was in a really tough position.

So, in this post, you are both saving her from her dad's place and saying that going back to that place is a solution. Is that a bad place when you think you may have something close with her or when you can become "the rescuer" and a relatively OK good place when you don't want to rescue anymore because of different expectations in terms of intimate things? You need to clarify your boundaries, your own stand in this. The rest is again, yes, blurry. From her perspective, it seems that she could do intimate things with you but didn't feel accountable to you. Perhaps your understanding was different?

That was the problem. She didn't want to go back to her dad's place, she didn't want to go back to her sister's place, and she didn't want to go back to her other ex-boyfriend's place either. But this 'domdaddy' and random Tinder hookup stuff was too much for me to bare while she was living with me because of the simple fact that I had feelings for her. How was I supposed to cope with guys parking in front of my place to pick her up? Or literally face her the next day after knowing she had a wild night? I couldn't. I just couldn't do it.

I don't really know myself what I was expecting from it. She needed a place to stay. A place where she could feel safe with someone who was willing to help her out. I didn't know how long it would be, and that did bother me bit. Yeah, she was getting therapy (thanks to me) but for how long was that going to be until she got "better"? Was I going to house her 3 months? 6 months? I had no idea. She definitely couldn't afford a place of her own. Her only source of income was YouTube and welfare, and unless her YouTube channel really exploded in popularity, there was no way she was ever going to make enough to support herself entirely. This is why I suggested to her that maybe she should apply for disability because she can't work a normal job. She just has too many different things wrong with her that prevent her from functioning like a normal adult.

How would you like to act in the future?

With her? Well, we're not talking right now... .But in the future, if she were to contact me, I would like to politely tell her to leave me alone. The problem is, if she contacts me, it'll probably be during a crisis, and she's so freaking good at making me feel sorry for her.

I don't know what other women with BPD are like, by my ex acts like a child or a little girl. She identifies as a 'little' which is the other half of this 'daddy' thing. She basically WANTS to be looked after. She doesn't want to have responsibilities. Even when we dated she was like this, although she wasn't aware back then that she was a 'little'. But my God, when she was here I would have to get her everything. She'd lay in the bed and be like, "Paperlung, can we get me water. Paperlung, can you grab my purse and get my chapstick. Paperlung, can you grab my food? Paperlung, can you get my blanket? Paperlung, can you do this? Paperlung, can you do that?" It's ridiculous!

It is ridiculous. What did you do when someone was asking for ridiculous things?

You mean someone else besides me ex? I'd call them out on their laziness. I'd call my ex out on it too when she was here, but she would always have an excuse. "But I'm tired. My head hurts. I have cramps. I'm PMSing. I'm on my period."

She said to me how she would be screwed without my help or would've probably killed herself by now without me. And I kid you not, she even told me that I wasn't allowed to get a girlfriend until she got better! A bit later she said she was just joking when I brought that statement up to her, but I don't know... .there was definitely some truth to that. She always does that. Says something to me like "I love you" or "Want to date again?" or "Let's get married one day" and then completely downplays later as if she wasn't being serious at all.

A lot of people here have experienced this. How do you interpret this in the framework of BPD? Which part of this, do you have a bigger problem with?

I like to believe that what she says is genuine in the moment, but that can quickly change. Like, I think when she told me she loved me to my face while we were sitting on my couch and when we were talking and cuddling in my bed, she sincerely meant it. I just don't think it lasts with her.

I guess my hope for her was that she would live with me and my family, I would support her, she would go to therapy weekly, and she would grow her YouTube channel until she was able to make enough money to afford a place of her own. I guess I was just too naive to think she wouldn't want to date/sleep around on the side. And as it turns out, I was bothered by that.

A lot of people would be bothered by that under your circumstances.

And then I was labeled controlling by her because I told her to take it elsewhere.

As it stands now, she's living out of a hotel in the city nearby that guy she just met off Tinder. She uploaded a video on YouTube telling all her fans/subscribers that she's homeless at the moment. She got A LOT of donations from that video. She didn't ask for it, but she did. Pretty sure she's received at least a couple thousand dollars already, so financially... .she's OK for the time being.

You seem to mention her financial situation a couple of times. Again, how about you? Where do you see yourself in life? What are your plans for yourself?

I'm still in school, which I'm a little ashamed to admit. I'm 26 and haven't finished my bachelor's degree yet. I still live at home and also work part-time. Where do I see myself in life? Realistically, working as a physiotherapist in my thirties.

[paperlung]

One other thing I would like to add.

One day (after I discovered her pursuit for a 'domdaddy' but before she met with anyone) she asked me if I was OK with her going to visit her alcoholic ex-boyfriend (he's not abusive). I said sure, and shortly after he picked her up and they went back to his place, she sent me a text, "I already want to leave ". I ask her why and she said, "Just doesn't feel right. I need to go to therapy." She basically went there to fool around and realized that what she was doing wasn't all that good. So he drops her back off at my place and she gives me a big hug. We then head out to the grocery store together and she holds on to my arm. In that moment, I felt that she realized that she was where she needed to be, and that was with me.

[JoD]

This sounds almost identical to my ex-girlfriend, who I let move back in with me for a time after our relationship.  The 'I need to stay with you, I have nowhere else to go.'  The 'if I stay at home, I'll end up killing myself.'  The dependence, and taking care of most things for her - taking her shopping, getting her around town, finding job opportunities for her, etc., etc.  I wanted to 'help' her, so they were just things I did, even if it annoyed me to no end to have to do them.  The dependency drove me nuts, but I put up with it because who else is she going to turn to?

The more I'm here, and the more time passes, the more I realize how much of a sucker I was (not saying you are, just that I feel that way about myself).  When I'm reading what you're saying, and how similar it is to my situation, I wish could slap my past self in the face and knock myself out of it.  I think we 'helpers' are/were essentially saying to our pwBPD, 'please take advantage of me in any way you can imagine.'  Of course, they have no problem doing exactly that, and when it becomes their expectation, any time we don't comply, it starts an episode (or at least it did in my case).

What's funny is the girl with 'nowhere else to go,' found a fantastic place to stay within two days of me kicking her out.  The girl who could never find a job while she was staying at my place lined up six interviews in a single day after moving out.  Once I stopped taking care of her, she had no choice but to do it herself.  And so she did.  Everyone is different, of course, but I don't think you need to be as worried about her as you seem to be (or is that in the past now?).  She'll get by without you taking care of her every whim.

[thisworld]

Paperlung,

Thank you for replying with such candor. Your post is so full of insight as to how these relationships evolve once we are in the friend zone.  So much in your experience resonates with me. My ex sees me as a distant rescuer nowadays, a fallback. He contacts me when there is crisis (and his life is full of it really) but he is also getting used to the fact that I actually have other boundaries now. It evolves in strange ways sometimes. A couple days ago I supported him emotionally because his best friend is dying, one day later he talked to me about his depression and apathy (I suggested sports, he likes sports) and the next thing is he is asking for my spare bicycle and is telling me that I can send it through postal services (we live 300 miles apart, I guess I'm lucky that he didn't suggest I cycle all the way up there and then return on foot ) 

Another thing we have in common is the entrance of unusual concepts into our relationship style (for lack of a better word, English is not my mother tongue). I mean we put boundaries etc but the way these discussions evolve brings so many new things into our life and relationship vocabulary. Like, no matter what your values are, conceptually you had something like a "domdaddy" in your life. My ex brought something like "21-year-olds." (We are at the end of our thirties.) I mean, is it even necessary, helpful, constructive to have these concepts, ideas in our lives? Simply talking to my ex brought certain things into my life that I feel I can do without. Personally, to me (but this doesn't have to be the same for everyone, this is just me) having to discuss anything that involves "21-year-old" is a direct decrease in the quality of how I experience my emotional relationships. This is not about competing with "21-year-olds", it has more to do with having to have this conversation where someone is categorizing people like that and as a category, they are in my world now. To me, this also begs the question "Who am I then, what is my category?"

Obviously a rescuer in his eyes. Like, during the mirroring phase, I was an "angel" which I don't believe represents me at all.

But apparently rescuer I am and rescuer I shall be - unless split black.

Rescuing is not bad in itself and I think you have done a great job helping someone access therapy. But I genuinely believe that anything beyond this will be an action in the FOG, that is something that stems from fear, obligation or guilt - as the title of this thread suggests. When our actions result from one of these, we are still in the fog.

The article below has been very helpful to me in terms of understanding what is going on, especially when I'm contacted by my ex during a crisis, so I'd like to share it with you, too (in case you haven't come across it.)

Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG)

Best,

[paperlung]

This sounds almost identical to my ex-girlfriend, who I let move back in with me for a time after our relationship.  The 'I need to stay with you, I have nowhere else to go.'  The 'if I stay at home, I'll end up killing myself.'  The dependence, and taking care of most things for her - taking her shopping, getting her around town, finding job opportunities for her, etc., etc.  I wanted to 'help' her, so they were just things I did, even if it annoyed me to no end to have to do them.  The dependency drove me nuts, but I put up with it because who else is she going to turn to?

The more I'm here, and the more time passes, the more I realize how much of a sucker I was (not saying you are, just that I feel that way about myself).  When I'm reading what you're saying, and how similar it is to my situation, I wish could slap my past self in the face and knock myself out of it.  I think we 'helpers' are/were essentially saying to our pwBPD, 'please take advantage of me in any way you can imagine.'  Of course, they have no problem doing exactly that, and when it becomes their expectation, any time we don't comply, it starts an episode (or at least it did in my case).

What's funny is the girl with 'nowhere else to go,' found a fantastic place to stay within two days of me kicking her out.  The girl who could never find a job while she was staying at my place lined up six interviews in a single day after moving out.  Once I stopped taking care of her, she had no choice but to do it herself.  And so she did.  Everyone is different, of course, but I don't think you need to be as worried about her as you seem to be (or is that in the past now?).  She'll get by without you taking care of her every whim.

Wow, yeah, I see a lot of parallels. May I ask what prompted you to kick her out?

I felt like a sucker too even though I willingly took on the role of helper/caretaker. You know the phrase, "Have your cake and eat it too"? My ex wanted the best of both worlds at my house. She wanted a 'safe place' to stay where I would take care of her but also be able to roam around with 'daddies' and other men. What man in their right mind would be OK with that if there were feelings involved?

Take for instance the last quarrel we had at my place. She wanted me to call a hotel, give them my credit card information, and then drive her to the hotel so that she could film some videos for her YouTube channel over night. Right before I was about to do all this, she tells me that the guy she hooked up with off Tinder the other night was going to spend the night with her there in the hotel. Right then and there, I felt like a sucker. And it wasn't so much that he was going to spend the night with her (again) that bothered me, it was me having to be her chauffeur for this. So, I told her I wouldn't take her and that since he was going to meet her there anyway, he could come pick her up himself, and then they could go check in together. Of course, she got mad at me for suggesting that. I was labeled immature, a pussy, ect.

I don't have to worry about my ex anymore for the time being. Haven't talked to her in a week, actually. Pretty sure she's found herself a place of her own by now. Whether or not it's sustainable is another question. She's living off a lump sum of donations right now and doesn't make nearly enough money off of YouTube to support herself. But in the mean time, her degenerate behavior will be in full swing. Someone else has filled my shoes as the helper now, and I'm totally fine with that.

[paperlung]

Remember last night when I said wouldn't have to worry about hearing from my ex for a while? Well, she called me last night. I missed the call, but the message she left... .oh boy. She was crying hysterically. She said the guy she met last week was verbally abusing her; said he was going to kick her out of the truck, and throw all her stuff in the river.

So I texted her and asked what was up and she explained to me that they were in a u-haul together. Yes, she and him are now living together as roommates. She met this guy for the first time a little over a week ago. Apparently, my ex got mad at him for dropping off his dresser in front of her dad's place or something and he just lost it. She said she has never been more afraid of man before in her entire life... .that says something. She says they almost got into an accident while driving too. She also told me he has told her a lot about himself and that he has "mental problems" but so does she and that she thought they could help each other. They're not BF/GF, but I can already sense more drama from her in the near future.