how to navigate this opening

[kc sunshine]

Hi all,

So my ex BPDgf has invited me over a few times over the past couple of week to her house to talk and hang out. It feels like an opening back to being together but so far we've gotten a bit stuck. It's taken a similar course each time, where she is very physically affectionate with me, but then stops and says that she loves me but all the issues of why she broke up with me are still too present for her. I totally understand and respect her position, but I bet there is something better I could do to help us get over this block.

What I do hasn't been working at all: try to convince her that I could change, etc. That is just a dead end, and puts us right back in the old fights (though it is much less charged as a conflict now that we are broken up). What happens then is that we end up having a pretty good conversation but she basically says "too little too late" (or too much too late) and then I leave.

I think from what I learned from these boards so far, a much better approach would be to validate. I'm not quite sure how to do it in this situation (I have so much to learn). Would it be something like this? Validating her confusion? Say something like "It must be tough to be so torn... .how does it feel?" And then listen to her feelings about it? That sounds like something I could try (if I get another chance). Any other ideas about things I could say or do?

Thanks for any thoughts or ideas!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[tryingsome]

My suggestion, don't validate out of the blue.

Don't start talking about her feelings or how tough it must be for her.

Don't say any of this unless she brings it up.

and even then, validate once and move on.

What I think you should do is just be light and easy.

Yak about the things she likes.

Be confident in the things you like.

Brush off the comments about too little too late.

Make light of it. Make it fun. More like too big too fun.

don't leave on a low note. Leave on a high note.

Be confident. Take charge. 

Remember only validate when she iniates first.

Do not talk about the relationship unless she mentions it first.

Pretend it is a first date.

[kc sunshine]

Yes, this is what I've been trying to do, but she brings up the break up (or rather, the reasons for the break up). She is in the middle of kissing me, then stops and talks about it. So maybe I just make light of it then? Brush it off with a light "yeah there were so many good things as well as tough things-- hard to know what to do in that situation, but no matter what we did have lots of fun!" How's that sound? 

My suggestion, don't validate out of the blue.

Don't start talking about her feelings or how tough it must be for her.

Don't say any of this unless she brings it up.

and even then, validate once and move on.

What I think you should do is just be light and easy.

Yak about the things she likes.

Be confident in the things you like.

Brush off the comments about too little too late.

Make light of it. Make it fun. More like too big too fun.

don't leave on a low note. Leave on a high note.

Be confident. Take charge. 

Remember only validate when she iniates first.

Do not talk about the relationship unless she mentions it first.

Pretend it is a first date.

[tryingsome]

I would be even more lighthearted

'Tough sh*t doesn't bother me. I kick a**'

my ex enjoyed confidence spewing from a man.

you don't have to say that but be strong and assertive.

every pwBPD is different though.

or in your statement the first part is fine. second part saying something like, but I am not any guy I know how to handle anything.

also on a side note I thought you were on the detaching board.

going to give it another go around?

[tryingsome]

I also want to say be honest with yourself. don't say things that are not you.

but display confidence and show that you can handle anything.

[kc sunshine]

I am on the detaching board too-- it's a pull push situation. I'd like to be with her but when she pushes I have to detach. So confusing!

also on a side note I thought you were on the detaching board.

going to give it another go around?

[Grey Kitty]

Validation is good.

You don't have to save it for really tough things when you try to validate.  Things like "she loves me but all the issues of why she broke up with me are still too present for her" are HARD to validate. Not impossible, but hard.

If she just looks tired/worn out, validating that is safe and easy, and builds up trust. (Maybe offering to rub her shoulders to help her relax would go well after that... .)

BTW, convincing her that you can/will change is probably INvalidating. She's afraid you won't change... .so you are invalidating her fear, instead of reassuring her. It is VERY natural to try to talk somebody out of negative emotions ("You don't have to be afraid because ... .<very real fear> is irrational and unlikely" and doubly so when they are aimed at you.

If you want to validate her concerns about everything that led you to break up coming back... .can you elaborate on what that is? That would give us better context to suggest something you could validate in it.

[kc sunshine]

That is super helpful-- I hadn't thought of it in that way. I thought I was validating her observations by thinking about ways to change!

The things she broke up with me about were:

1) her always having to bring up the issues in our relationship

2) me likely moving to another city in 6 months

3) me not telling my kids about her and I yet (I wanted to go slowly on this)

4) me being not so open in general

5) my exes

All very good reasons! But all things I can try to change .

Let me think about validating the potential move question (I think that is our biggest problem). How are some of these questions?

Me: How does the potential of me moving make you feel?

Her: Her answer

Me: Yeah, I can see that.

Then what? Thanks!

BTW, convincing her that you can/will change is probably INvalidating. She's afraid you won't change... .so you are invalidating her fear, instead of reassuring her. It is VERY natural to try to talk somebody out of negative emotions ("You don't have to be afraid because ... .<very real fear> is irrational and unlikely" and doubly so when they are aimed at you.

If you want to validate her concerns about everything that led you to break up coming back... .can you elaborate on what that is? That would give us better context to suggest something you could validate in it.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, you are getting it! I probably wouldn't suggest the conversation you proposed... .hang with me for a bit longer here.

The best and deepest validation is about her feelings, not the issues that bring up the feelings.

1) her always having to bring up the issues in our relationship

I'd probably NOT bring that one up, as there isn't much you can validate in there besides her frustration... .and I'm pretty sure you avoid bringing these things up because you know she's going to blow up at you if you do, which isn't quite the validating conversation you want to have with her!

My general policy is to avoid bringing up topics of contention, especially things that she says during a dysregulation/verbal abuse attack on me. If they are bugging her at a specific time, I can try to validate, but she may not be thinking of it, so why wake the bear, so to speak?

2) me likely moving to another city in 6 months

3) me not telling my kids about her and I yet (I wanted to go slowly on this)

4) me being not so open in general

5) my exes

These all sound like they have a specific fear at the root of them.

She is afraid of losing you.

Some of them are more in the category of she is afraid you are keeping her at a distance so you can leave more easily (3,4) but those are about the fear of losing you.

I'm assuming that she is afraid you will dump her for an ex, or cheat on you with an ex.

In any of these cases, what she says isn't quite that she is afraid, but that is probably what is driving it. (She may sound angry. Anger is a secondary emotion, usually on top of hurt or fear)

So validation here would be validating how scary it is to risk losing your lover.

And once again, telling her you would never leave her, while it should be reassuring, is also invalidating her fear, so if you can start by acknowledging that her fear is real and even understandable, you have a better chance of getting to a place where she will believe you when you tell her you are committed to her and won't leave.

Does that make sense? This kind of validation is very subtle stuff, and you really have to put yourself in her shoes to get there.

[C.Stein]

Yes, this is what I've been trying to do, but she brings up the break up (or rather, the reasons for the break up). She is in the middle of kissing me, then stops and talks about it.

This says to me that the kissing, an act of emotional intimacy, scares her.  She wants to feel emotionally safe with you and right now she doesn't.  IMO words and validation aren't going to fix this, actions will.  She needs to see through your actions that she is emotionally safe with you.  Words alone will not provide that sense of safety within her.

[livednlearned]

These are some validating questions that have helped me in the past:

What's wrong?

Did that hurt your feelings?

What does that mean?

What would you like me to do?

Is there anything I can do to help you?

Would it help if I (name something you can do)?

I also like this explanation from a psychologist who describes how "breaches" in relationships are inevitable, it's the ability to repair and recover where we tend to have trouble. It describes validation in a way that gave me a  moment about what are sometimes happening in these conversations.

[kc sunshine]

Oh this is so so helpful-- thank you! I'll keep working on it!

Yes, you are getting it! I probably wouldn't suggest the conversation you proposed... .hang with me for a bit longer here.

The best and deepest validation is about her feelings, not the issues that bring up the feelings.

1) her always having to bring up the issues in our relationship

I'd probably NOT bring that one up, as there isn't much you can validate in there besides her frustration... .and I'm pretty sure you avoid bringing these things up because you know she's going to blow up at you if you do, which isn't quite the validating conversation you want to have with her!

My general policy is to avoid bringing up topics of contention, especially things that she says during a dysregulation/verbal abuse attack on me. If they are bugging her at a specific time, I can try to validate, but she may not be thinking of it, so why wake the bear, so to speak?

2) me likely moving to another city in 6 months

3) me not telling my kids about her and I yet (I wanted to go slowly on this)

4) me being not so open in general

5) my exes

These all sound like they have a specific fear at the root of them.

She is afraid of losing you.

Some of them are more in the category of she is afraid you are keeping her at a distance so you can leave more easily (3,4) but those are about the fear of losing you.

I'm assuming that she is afraid you will dump her for an ex, or cheat on you with an ex.

In any of these cases, what she says isn't quite that she is afraid, but that is probably what is driving it. (She may sound angry. Anger is a secondary emotion, usually on top of hurt or fear)

So validation here would be validating how scary it is to risk losing your lover.

And once again, telling her you would never leave her, while it should be reassuring, is also invalidating her fear, so if you can start by acknowledging that her fear is real and even understandable, you have a better chance of getting to a place where she will believe you when you tell her you are committed to her and won't leave.

Does that make sense? This kind of validation is very subtle stuff, and you really have to put yourself in her shoes to get there.