Intentionally hurting us or not?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is to continue the discussion we had under one of my threads in case someone wants to add something. The beginning thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=291741.0 I made the last comment and then the thread was closed.

I was planning to reply to the people who had posted under my first thread but I am not sure they will see my replies now that the thread is closed. I will at least write your nicknames here though FannyB, jhkbuzz, C. Stein, jessedsickabou, JQ, steelwork, Woundedbibi, Caley, troisette and gotbushels and let you know I have read everything that you posted and I thank you for all your guidance.

Another thought that I just had was that while they most of the times know that their actions are hurting us, their intention is not to hurt us but it is rather to please themselves and their needs which ends up being hurtful. Their selves always come first and this is very obvious in all of their interactions. As I said in my last post, I couldn't hold my self any longer and responded by saying "I don't understand the intention of your messages. If we cannot be together because you messed everything up then why do I have to know that you are hurting? What am I supposed to do with this knowledge?" His reply was "I know it is me that destroyed everything and my punishment for this is that I will never forget you and I will never forgive my self for everything I have done. I am not asking you for anything more. It's enough for me if you could only allow me to tell you how I feel".

The thought that I am also hurting and that his messages hurt me more is obviously irrelevant... .

[Penelope35]

This is to continue the discussion we had under one of my threads in case someone wants to add something. The beginning thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=291741.0 I made the last comment and then the thread was closed.

I was planning to reply to the people who had posted under my first thread but I am not sure they will see my replies now that the thread is closed. I will at least write your nicknames here though FannyB, jhkbuzz, C. Stein, jessedsickabou, JQ, steelwork, Woundedbibi, Caley, troisette and gotbushels and let you know I have read everything that you posted and I thank you for all your guidance.

Another thought that I just had was that while they most of the times know that their actions are hurting us, their intention is not to hurt us but it is rather to please themselves and their needs which ends up being hurtful. Their selves always come first and this is very obvious in all of their interactions. As I said in my last post, I couldn't hold my self any longer and responded by saying "I don't understand the intention of your messages. If we cannot be together because you messed everything up then why do I have to know that you are hurting? What am I supposed to do with this knowledge?" His reply was "I know it is me that destroyed everything and my punishment for this is that I will never forget you and I will never forgive my self for everything I have done. I am not asking you for anything more. It's enough for me if you could only allow me to tell you how I feel".

The thought that I am also hurting and that his messages hurt me more is obviously irrelevant... .

[C.Stein]

The thought that I am also hurting and that his messages hurt me more is obviously irrelevant... .

Maybe if you try to think of it as giving him the closure he needs you are giving yourself closure as well? 

[Mutt]

His reply was "I know it is me that destroyed everything and my punishment for this is that I will never forget you and I will never forgive my self for everything I have done. I am not asking you for anything more. It's enough for me if you could only allow me to tell you how I feel".

Penelope35,

I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like he understand to a degree that he ends up sabotaging the relationship.

[Penelope35]

C. Stein how will I ever get closure if I continue to receive these messages?   :'(

Mutt he does yes. And blaims himself but ends up doing the same things over and over. Now he is not even asking for us to be back together. He only needs comfort... .

[Mutt]

He only needs comfort... .

He wants to be soothed. It helps to self protect ourselves with no contact, take really good care of ourselves and let our ex partners sooth their own feelings. It's not easy.

[Penelope35]

He wants to be soothed. It helps to self protect ourselves with no contact, take really good care of ourselves and let our ex partners sooth their own feelings. It's not easy.

He needs soothing and I unfortunately broke down and replied  after he send me a wish for my birthday. And now I am back to wanting answers from him which I know I am never going to get and I am only satisfying his need to talk to me...

[steelwork]

The thought that I am also hurting and that his messages hurt me more is obviously irrelevant... .

Yeah, this was what stung me the most: the total indifference to my feelings. But looking back, it was consistent with his behavior all along. He often talked with pride about times he'd been selfish about this or that--like, as an affirmation, because putting himself first was healthy. He told me I should be selfish, too.

But back to the general question: I am quite certain he lashed out because he felt threatened. I think his cruelty after he'd replaced to me was intentional in the sense that it was protecting him from feelings of guilt about moving on. Also, I suspect he thinks lashing out is healthy boundary-setting. See "selfish".

But "intentional" doesn't mean "sadistic"; that is, I don't get the sense he enjoyed seeing me hurt. I guess lashing out always feels good on some reptile-brain level, like releif, but I don't think that's the same thing as getting pleasure from someone else's pain.

[Penelope35]

I understand that everything is self satisfying. They don't get it. At least my ex doesn't. He never raged or anything like that but I came to realize that everything he did was draining me

[jhkbuzz]

If you can imagine that your ex has the emotional landscape of a 5 year old you'll understand what you're dealing with. Emotional immaturity with an excessive focus on the self is exactly what we expect from children - we don't expect them to meet our needs or have well-reasoned, adult conversations.

You will drive yourself mad trying to get answers. He may not even know the answers to your questions. Is this surprising to you? If you have an ex with BPD you are dealing with a person who has serious mental health issues, whose behavior is perplexing to himself. He is looking to soothe himself and avoid pain; there is nothing reasoned or well thought-out about about it. He met you. He liked you. Being with you felt good. Until it didn't. The end.

Amoral? Absolutely. Painfully crushing for you? Yes. For me, too. That's why I closed the door and nailed it shut.

I knew you picked up the Ding Dong, btw.  Maybe you will get what you need from this interaction with him, maybe you won't. But the wound in you will never heal if you allow him to keep picking at it. And I think you understand by now that he is only doing what you allow.

[Penelope35]

I just told him that the biggest problem in this situation is me who is still hoping that I can get answers from him. The ding doing has gone bad... .

[jhkbuzz]

I just told him that the biggest problem in this situation is me who is still hoping that I can get answers from him. The ding doing has gone bad... .

More wisdom from 2010:

"The aftermath of this goes in stages; the back and forth; and having it get worse - only to spiral down and crash.  Then when you’ve crashed, you really want the pain to go away, and the only thing that you know will take that pain away is the proof that you were really loved in spite of it all, (in spite of the disorder).  But this person can’t take away your pain when they are the cause of it and your uncertainty about that is sometimes outweighed by your hopefulness - and this is what needs to be addressed.

Hopefully, you know that you are very important. Your importance means that in the aftermath of this failed love - there is still love for yourself that has to be lit from within. If it isn’t, the need to hand it over to another person for safe keeping is too much responsibility, especially for someone who is unstable. You must have self-love despite the fact that another human being appears unable to carry your love. In all likelihood, both of you had great intentions for love, but the unstable belief system guaranteed an outcome that did not support trust and faith. This is a disorder. I’m very sorry and I know it hurts.

I know you feel down right now. This is completely appropriate given the circumstances, but I’m here to tell you – you will get through this. There is a resolve inside of you that will not be extinguished. It is a flame that exists in spite of your heartache and you will keep it alive, because there are many people out there who will love you - you just need to give them a chance. Day by day, every person you meet gives you the possibility for love. The despair you feel right now - it will pass, I promise. But first, we need closure on your spiritual wound. Your despair is about a lack of closure, and this back and forth just rips the scab off. So how do we suture you up? What is the best method of closure?

For most people, closure is an action word - you take action by closing the door to someone who has hurt you - especially someone who has hurt you multiple times. And for most people, this is very hard to do. You’ve held out hope for so long and the back and forth is keeping that hope alive, but it’s also spiritually draining.

No contact is saying that you don’t want to be hurt anymore and you want (or at least attempt) a better future. The hope is something you give yourself. That’s self-preservation and self-love and it’s the effort you make to keep that tiny flame alive inside of you despite the fact that another person has hurt you. You may fall off the wagon and break the no contact agreement, but it will eventually work its way through and the door will be closed. Then you must grieve.

The best you can hope for is that someday you will find peace from the aftermath (now known as an interaction rather than a relationship).  This interaction that was with someone who needed you for the wrong reasons, (not the right ones) which supported a disordered belief system where you were assigned a role to play. You’re going to have to accept that this wasn’t supposed to be a lifelong commitment and that’s a GOOD thing you realized this sooner rather than later.

You will eventually accept that the closing of doors lead to the opening of others, and you will wistfully admire your commitment to try and love this person, while realizing the futility of your efforts and still ask yourself the hard questions about why you were willing to love in such a way that you were willing to turn against loving yourself.

It will get better. Day by day. Give it time. And please don’t ever give up. "

[JerryRG]

Beautiful words jhkbuzz, thank you so much

[lingering]

I like the post that says if you can understand that your ex has the emotional landscape of a 5 year old... .that resonates.

It is odd to be in such a one-sided relationship.  Penelope said something about the drain.  That is so it for me.  Completely robbed me of my life-song.  It is sweet freedom to be away and not have to talk to him.  Looking forward to next week when I get paid and can go get the last of my things... .I expect terrible sobs and high drama but, frankly, I don't care.  I have given my best, it was not enough. So be it. 

Seriously loving being single... .

Lingering NO MORE!

[JerryRG]

Hey lingering

Good for you!

One way relationship, so good to remember and thank goodness it isn't just me. This may be tmi but my exBPDgf was married before we got together. She cut her husband of one year off from her affections and proceeds to cheat on him.  

He now owns his own construction company and she still whines about her loss, idiot

Needless to say but his response was, divorce and torched all her belongings

Yep, they are beyond sick and bent on destroying themselves and those of us unfortunate enough to have crossed their paths.

My councelor has pounded this into my head to no avail.

"Jerry, we see a full grown tiger coming down the street to devour us, you see a fluffy kitten, um wake the f up before your slashed to pieces"

[Penelope35]

@jhkbuzz those words are valuable. I read your post twice and was thinking this person couldn't be more right. It's like they are in my shoes explaining to me exactly why I feel the way I feel and why i should keep on fighting the urge to reply to his messages.

@lingering it's nice to listen to you being so determined and so optimistic for the future. It gives me hope. Thanks.

@jerry your counselor was spot on. I hope I can soon see this relationship only for what it was. I hope we all will.

I think I tend to over-romanticise stuff. And I wasn't even so romantic ever! This person has restructured my brain!

[gotbushels]

Sorry if I have dissapointed you all

No worries. I wasn't disappointed.

I am just explaining what I came to realise about what was going on.

Both people bear responsibility for the way a relationship is (or was). This is regardless of the BPD diagnosis. That is a truth that many nons find difficult. It is not easy to grasp. I can see that you are seeing beyond the label of BPD.  I applaud you for the effort you have put into understanding.

You're investing your expectations into outcomes where the BP is involved.

If his story of being separated from his wife is true, or even if they are not separated but they are rather in a dead marriage, I would expect from a 40 year old man who claims he loves me to sit down with me and explain the situation, tell me his reasons of why he is still living with his wife and give me the opportunity to decide for my self  if I wanted to get involved in this or not.

Therefore you are creating an environment to be affected by what the BP does in the future. Also, "expect from a 40 year old man" = you are assuming a BP can function as an adult in that period of time. That will make very big problems for you in the future.

---

I'm highlighting this:

However, all evidence show that he is there everyday, I don't and will never know the kind of relationship he has with his wife

Example1:

Woman "X" dated a man "Y" for a year or so. She found out he was married. He told her he will break up with his wife. Woman X kicked and screamed (apparently) but in the end was okay with continuing to date. At some point woman X found out that he stayed together with his wife and ended up having a daughter.

Therefore, woman X ended up being the consenting third party. When I talked to her she was proud and unremorseful. I lost respect for her, even though she tried to "make me see" that she was misled. Sorry but a naive homewrecker is still a homewrecker. If you think you want to risk that of yourself, just be aware of what you're doing.

When you trust someone that shows they shouldn't be trusted, be ready to deal with the consequences of your choices.

Example 2:

I trusted my ex. She made excuses for everything even her massive lies. I decided to trust her (oh poor creature, poor thing, victim of xyz issue and boyfriend etc). She later started seeing another man behind my back.

I should be the one to deal with the consequences of trusting her.


---

As I said before, I don't consider my ex to have any cognitive impairment nor do I consider any of your exs as being cognitively challenged. On the contrary most of them sound like very intelligent people.

Penelope, you've defined cognitive impairment as opposite to highly intelligent. For clarity, I agree that some BPs are highly intelligent. There is a wide variety of intelligence. But I highlight to you that the conditions of BPD cause them to dysregulate. It's known that dysregulation causes decision making that is impaired. Remember that wise mind = emotional mind + logical mind.

TOOLS: Triggering, Mindfulness, and the Wise Mind

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

BPD causes a person to be prone to be imbalanced. This is commonly due to dysregulation. When emotions are highly charged like that, it causes people to sometimes act on urges without regard to consequences. Therefore, BPs that have significantly dysregulated at a given time, have a tendency to act regardless of what right and wrong would logically tell us.

Because of what I've explained above, I disagree with statements like this:

They know right from wrong and of course they know that lying and deceiving are bad and hurtful for the person on the opposite end.

---


Now that you know all these things, and about his long-term behaviour, do you still want to maintain any relationship with him (friendships included)?

Bear in mind that this is a BP that you have dated that has signalled, amongst other things, (1) an intention to remain intimate with you regardless of how you feel about it; and (2) he has provided evidence that he consistently lies to get what he wants.

[troisette]

Hi Penelope - I don't think people with BPD intentionally set out to hurt us, I think the emotional landscape of a five year old, and their internal pain, causes them to be self absorbed and unwilling or unable to comprehend the damage they cause.

However... .if he also has co-morbid narcissism then yes, he is capable of deliberately causing pain. And getting pleasure from doing so.

[Concerns]

I'll throw in. I know for a fact that in some cases this may certainly be true. My own wife is a perfect example. Whenever I've tried to have discussions with her on whatever pain she has caused me in a given situation and there have been numerous, she gets this little smile on her face and this shady look as she looks at you from the corner of her eyes. I feel the pleasure she gains from my hurt. On some level, she likes the pain she causes. My wife is a sado-masochist. On the flip side, she enjoys hurting herself. I feel part of this is emphasized in the fact that she self harms and will do nothing or makes no effort to get help. So on some level she enjoys the pain she causes herself and others.

[C.Stein]

C. Stein how will I ever get closure if I continue to receive these messages?   :'(

The hope, and I stress hope, is once he has had his say he will stop contacting you.  The important part is that you do not respond in a way that gives him any hope of reconciliation.  You say what you need to in a respectful but non-engaging way.

That said, you must do what you feel is right for you.  If a short term LC can work and help you move forward that is OK.  If strict NC is what you need then that is OK too, however you should probably take steps to avoid getting/seeing anything from your ex at all if NC is your choice.

Either way you know you can always come here for support.   

[troisette]

I never tried to discuss past hurts but I did notice that covert, sly glance as he cut me out of a group conversation, or refilled everyone's glass but mine, or work a room overtly flirting with any female... .blah blah...

But he has definite narcissistic tendencies and I think this makes a difference. I could tell he was doing it deliberately and his glances were to check on the effect upon me. This hurt like hell.

I don't think the actions that I remember as typical BPD were intended to hurt, he seemed like an unaware child, not realising that his comments were inappropriate,  sometimes like a child acting as he thought a grown-up would act.

[FannyB]

Sometimes they do intend to hurt - but usually in reaction to the perception that we have hurt them. Their inner narrative tends to think that they loved us so much and we let them down - hence the emotional turmoil they find themselves in. When in this state of flux they can hit out physically or verbally at the source of their inner pain - whilst neglecting to process that the pain in question was present before we met them.

Fanny

[Daniell85]

Mine told me a number of times that his actions were not intended to hurt me. He had another reason for why he did something. The other reason was his goal.

For example when he cheated on me and got the OW pregnant, his intention was NOT to hurt me and NOT to get OW pregnant. So he was very angry at me for "blaming" him for hurting me. His goal, he admitted, "was not smart" ( to enjoy a side relationship with OW, enjoy sex with her) but he NEVER intended to hurt me, so if I was hurt IT WAS NOT HIS FAULT!

Unfortunately for him, I hold him 100% responsible for all of it.

Also there is a legal term " depraved indifference" that gives an answer to such twisted reasoning on his part.

And yes, he often has done things to deliberately hurt me. Some of them really shocked me. He continues to refuse accountability, instead projecting onto me, blaming me for his actions, giving me ST, rubbing things in my face and insisting I ruined the relationship with my upset responses to being stolen from, lied to, cheated on. He says I cannot be trusted as a result, and I am a wonderful woman, except "You cannot control your reactions."

It's true, I have a very hard time controlling my reactions to those kinds of things, so I removed myself from the situation at this point so he does not have to suffer them.

Pretty mad and hurt today.

[HurtinNW]

My ex did try to deliberately hurt me during his rages. He would say things he knew would devastate me. From his perspective he had been "backed into a corner" and justified in "fighting back." Unfortunately everything made him feel backed into a corner. The mildest comment could make him feel blamed. He was not able to recognize that everything I said was heard through that filter. So any effort for me to talk about anything of substance was heard as an attack—and gave him permission to take the gloves off. I remember once he flew into a rage because I disagreed with him about a celebrity.

Daniel85, he also said that since he didn't intend to hurt me I really shouldn't be hurt. He got angry with me for being hurt after he attacked, and saw that as further efforts to blame him. A horrible, awful sad cycle.

I think my ex had this belief that as long as he didn't plan on hurting me it didn't count. But of course it counted. Just as much as if he planned it. That way of thinking is how an immature person makes their actions someone else's responsibility. "Not my fault" "you made me" is not only childish, it is a very low level of conscience development. 

My ex also would cloak his abuse in faux praise, saying I am the most amazing woman ever except for (insert laundry list of my alleged crimes and faults). He used to tell me how he would tell his friends how I am so incredibly difficult, but magnificent. He thought this was being generous. It was just part of the defusing accountability, as you say.

What I am coming terms with is he will never take responsibility, that he is probably incapable of it. I am turning the focus on to me. Why was I involved with this person? What can I do to heal and make better choices in the future?

[WoundedBibi]

My ex did try to deliberately hurt me during his rages. He would say things he knew would devastate me. From his perspective he had been "backed into a corner" and justified in "fighting back." Unfortunately everything made him feel backed into a corner. The mildest comment could make him feel blamed. He was not able to recognize that everything I said was heard through that filter. So any effort for me to talk about anything of substance was heard as an attack—and gave him permission to take the gloves off. I remember once he flew into a rage because I disagreed with him about a celebrity.

Daniel85, he also said that since he didn't intend to hurt me I really shouldn't be hurt. He got angry with me for being hurt after he attacked, and saw that as further efforts to blame him. A horrible, awful sad cycle.

I think my ex had this belief that as long as he didn't plan on hurting me it didn't count. But of course it counted. Just as much as if he planned it. That way of thinking is how an immature person makes their actions someone else's responsibility. "Not my fault" "you made me" is not only childish, it is a very low level of conscience development.

I so recognize the negative filter... Anything, how ever innocent, could be heard differently by my ex and then trigger him. There is no talking to or reasoning with someone who has such a filter. It's crazy making...

Because trying to reverse the tables "I didn't intend to hurt you either by saying xyz but you felt hurt nonetheless. So that then shouldn't count either... " doesn't work. Because no matter what you say or do, the pwBPD just knows you have said/done it on purpose.

... .am I glad I don't have to justify my every word or action anymore... .

[jhkbuzz]

C. Stein how will I ever get closure if I continue to receive these messages?

Closure is something you have to give yourself. I did this in three parts: by making sense of what I had been through (with my therapist); by acknowledging that I loved someone who had mental health issues that precluded the possibility of a healthy r/s; and by recognizing that a continued r/s on any level (romantic or friendship) would cause me a great deal of pain. Working through all this took time. But it was time well spent; if I had put the "power" of closure in her hands, I would still be waiting.

I've noticed a pattern in your posts - you give your power away, even though you know better.



"... .the fact that he is now sending me messages while I asked him not to... ."

"... .how will I ever get closure if I continue to receive these messages? ... ."

You know that you can block his messages - but you don't. You are looking for words from him that will "magically" soothe the pain you're feeling - or will give you enough reason to summon up the anger that will blunt your pain (e.g. if he is in a "regular" marriage).

I understand how difficult this is. For a while, I blocked my ex on my phone - I grew exhausted wondering if every text was from her. I unfriended her on FB - and I can still vividly remember hovering over the "unfriend" button (and how intensely painful the decision was). I ended up blocking her on FB soon after because we have mutual FB friends - and I would be triggered by seeing her responses to other people. Each step took monumental effort. Each step broke my heart. But they were all steps towards self-care and self-love.

Your unwillingness to block communication with him is akin to you torturing yourself. He's not doing anything to you at this point; you're doing this to yourself.

I read a quote a few months ago that really resonated with me:

"I should have loved myself with the love I gave to you."

Your healing process will begin when you decide that self-love includes protecting yourself from those who would batter your tender heart.

[WoundedBibi]

Closure is something you have to give yourself. I did this in three parts: by making sense of what I had been through (with my therapist); by acknowledging that I loved someone who had mental health issues that precluded the possibility of a healthy r/s; and by recognizing that a continued r/s on any level (romantic or friendship) would cause me a great deal of pain. Working through all this took time. But it was time well spent; if I had put the "power" of closure in her hands, I would still be waiting.

I've noticed a pattern in your posts - you give your power away, even though you know better.



"... .the fact that he is now sending me messages while I asked him not to... ."

"... .how will I ever get closure if I continue to receive these messages? ... ."

You know that you can block his messages - but you don't. You are looking for words from him that will "magically" soothe the pain you're feeling - or will give you enough reason to summon up the anger that will blunt your pain (e.g. if he is in a "regular" marriage).

I understand how difficult this is. For a while, I blocked my ex on my phone - I grew exhausted wondering if every text was from her. I unfriended her on FB - and I can still vividly remember hovering over the "unfriend" button (and how intensely painful the decision was). I ended up blocking her on FB soon after because we have mutual FB friends - and I would be terribly triggered by seeing her responses to other people. Each stop took monumental effort. Each step broke my heart. But they were all steps towards self-care and self-love.

Your unwillingness to block communication with him is akin to you torturing yourself. He's not doing anything to you at this point; you're doing this to yourself.

I read a quote a few months ago that really resonated with me:

"I should have loved myself with the love I gave to you."

Your healing process will begin when you decide that self-love includes protecting yourself from those who would batter your tender heart.

Love your post.

[Daniell85]

You don't have to stop loving someone or wishing things had been different.

I agree it is paramount that the self love is there enough to realize you can't put yourself there to be damaged more.

I may have sounded like I don't care about my ex. I love him. I stayed way longer than I should have, I let him get away with a ton of things I would never have allowed anyone else to do. I thought if I stayed, eventually he would work through his issues and we would come out on the other side.

I am doubtful he can be close to anyone at this point without causing injury to them.

Protect yourself. You can revisit things later to see if your ex has sorted themselves to a more stable place. Or you can just keep walking. We all have a lot of injuries we need to heal from, and processing and understanding to gain.

[gotbushels]

[... .]

Love your post.

Ditto. Great post jhk.

[Penelope35]

Hey gotbushels. Thank you very much for your reply. I can't figure out how to quote your answers only so I will do it like this.

Therefore you are creating an environment to be affected by what the BP does in the future. Also, "expect from a 40 year old man" = you are assuming a BP can function as an adult in that period of time. That will make very big problems for you in the future.





I was actually referring to an adult with no BP traits. I am not thinking that a person with BP can ever fuction as a mature adult without the appropriate help.

---

I said: However, all evidence show that he is there everyday, but I don't and will never know the kind of relationship he has with his wife.

and you said:



Example1:

Woman "X" dated a man "Y" for a year or so. She found out he was married. He told her he will break up with his wife. Woman X kicked and screamed (apparently) but in the end was okay with continuing to date. At some point woman X found out that he stayed together with his wife and ended up having a daughter.

Therefore, woman X ended up being the consenting third party. When I talked to her she was proud and unremorseful. I lost respect for her, even though she tried to "make me see" that she was misled. Sorry but a naive homewrecker is still a homewrecker. If you think you want to risk that of yourself, just be aware of what you're doing.

When you trust someone that shows they shouldn't be trusted, be ready to deal with the consequences of your choices.

Example 2:

I trusted my ex. She made excuses for everything even her massive lies. I decided to trust her (oh poor creature, poor thing, victim of xyz issue and boyfriend etc). She later started seeing another man behind my back.

I should be the one to deal with the consequences of trusting her.

[/i]

Here I want to say that no matter what the situation is with his wife, there is NO WAY I would be with this man in a relationship again. I mean, I would LOVE to be with him if he was the person I met in the beginning and if I could have those emotions back but after everything that has happened I wouldn't consider being with him again. I do still feel like I love him a lot and I am struggling to detach from him emotionally but I wouldn't be with him even if I had found out that he is actually separated because I would never be able to trust him again. Nine months of lying is too much. The reason I think I am dying to find out what his family situation is to know the level of the deceit towards myself. If he is in a regular marriage and knew all along that he could never have all those things he was so passionately dreaming of with me then this to me is a total and pure deceit. Actually the fact that he is married and lied about that all along is what has stopped me from thinking that if i do this and if i do that maybe we can be together again. However, I recognize that i shouldn't have needed that to realise that there is no future with him. I had many many reasons to have stopped this relationship long before I knew anyting about all these.

On a side note, I don't believe that the third party can always be considered a homewrecker. To me most of the times the homewrecker is either the person inside the home who has started the affair or the home was already wrecked.  

---

Penelope, you've defined cognitive impairment as opposite to highly intelligent. For clarity, I agree that some BPs are highly intelligent. There is a wide variety of intelligence. But I highlight to you that the conditions of BPD cause them to dysregulate. It's known that dysregulation causes decision making that is impaired. Remember that wise mind = emotional mind + logical mind.

TOOLS: Triggering, Mindfulness, and the Wise Mind

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

BPD causes a person to be prone to be imbalanced. This is commonly due to dysregulation. When emotions are highly charged like that, it causes people to sometimes act on urges without regard to consequences. Therefore, BPs that have significantly dysregulated at a given time, have a tendency to act regardless of what right and wrong would logically tell us.



What I mean is that they rationally know what's right and what is not. If a friend of his asked him for his opinion about whether or not he should talk to a woman he is interested in about his marital situation I am sure he would tell him he has to.

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Now that you know all these things, and about his long-term behaviour, do you still want to maintain any relationship with him (friendships included)?

Bear in mind that this is a BP that you have dated that has signalled, amongst other things, (1) an intention to remain intimate with you regardless of how you feel about it; and (2) he has provided evidence that he consistently lies to get what he wants.



I will answer honestly. I CAN'T maintain a relationship with him and I WILL NOT. But I still can't say I don't WANT to be in a relationship with him. I think I'm still not ready to use the word "want". I want my heart to get in touch with my brain.

[Penelope35]

Hi Penelope - I don't think people with BPD intentionally set out to hurt us, I think the emotional landscape of a five year old, and their internal pain, causes them to be self absorbed and unwilling or unable to comprehend the damage they cause.

However... .if he also has co-morbid narcissism then yes, he is capable of deliberately causing pain. And getting pleasure from doing so.

I'll throw in. I know for a fact that in some cases this may certainly be true. My own wife is a perfect example. Whenever I've tried to have discussions with her on whatever pain she has caused me in a given situation and there have been numerous, she gets this little smile on her face and this shady look as she looks at you from the corner of her eyes. I feel the pleasure she gains from my hurt. On some level, she likes the pain she causes. My wife is a sado-masochist. On the flip side, she enjoys hurting herself. I feel part of this is emphasized in the fact that she self harms and will do nothing or makes no effort to get help. So on some level she enjoys the pain she causes herself and others.

I never tried to discuss past hurts but I did notice that covert, sly glance as he cut me out of a group conversation, or refilled everyone's glass but mine, or work a room overtly flirting with any female... .blah blah...

But he has definite narcissistic tendencies and I think this makes a difference. I could tell he was doing it deliberately and his glances were to check on the effect upon me. This hurt like hell.

I don't think the actions that I remember as typical BPD were intended to hurt, he seemed like an unaware child, not realising that his comments were inappropriate,  sometimes like a child acting as he thought a grown-up would act.

Sometimes they do intend to hurt - but usually in reaction to the perception that we have hurt them. Their inner narrative tends to think that they loved us so much and we let them down - hence the emotional turmoil they find themselves in. When in this state of flux they can hit out physically or verbally at the source of their inner pain - whilst neglecting to process that the pain in question was present before we met them.

Fanny

Mine told me a number of times that his actions were not intended to hurt me. He had another reason for why he did something. The other reason was his goal.

For example when he cheated on me and got the OW pregnant, his intention was NOT to hurt me and NOT to get OW pregnant. So he was very angry at me for "blaming" him for hurting me. His goal, he admitted, "was not smart" ( to enjoy a side relationship with OW, enjoy sex with her) but he NEVER intended to hurt me, so if I was hurt IT WAS NOT HIS FAULT!

Unfortunately for him, I hold him 100% responsible for all of it.

Also there is a legal term " depraved indifference" that gives an answer to such twisted reasoning on his part.

And yes, he often has done things to deliberately hurt me. Some of them really shocked me. He continues to refuse accountability, instead projecting onto me, blaming me for his actions, giving me ST, rubbing things in my face and insisting I ruined the relationship with my upset responses to being stolen from, lied to, cheated on. He says I cannot be trusted as a result, and I am a wonderful woman, except "You cannot control your reactions."

It's true, I have a very hard time controlling my reactions to those kinds of things, so I removed myself from the situation at this point so he does not have to suffer them.

Pretty mad and hurt today.

My ex did try to deliberately hurt me during his rages. He would say things he knew would devastate me. From his perspective he had been "backed into a corner" and justified in "fighting back." Unfortunately everything made him feel backed into a corner. The mildest comment could make him feel blamed. He was not able to recognize that everything I said was heard through that filter. So any effort for me to talk about anything of substance was heard as an attack—and gave him permission to take the gloves off. I remember once he flew into a rage because I disagreed with him about a celebrity.

Daniel85, he also said that since he didn't intend to hurt me I really shouldn't be hurt. He got angry with me for being hurt after he attacked, and saw that as further efforts to blame him. A horrible, awful sad cycle.

I think my ex had this belief that as long as he didn't plan on hurting me it didn't count. But of course it counted. Just as much as if he planned it. That way of thinking is how an immature person makes their actions someone else's responsibility. "Not my fault" "you made me" is not only childish, it is a very low level of conscience development. 

My ex also would cloak his abuse in faux praise, saying I am the most amazing woman ever except for (insert laundry list of my alleged crimes and faults). He used to tell me how he would tell his friends how I am so incredibly difficult, but magnificent. He thought this was being generous. It was just part of the defusing accountability, as you say.

What I am coming terms with is he will never take responsibility, that he is probably incapable of it. I am turning the focus on to me. Why was I involved with this person? What can I do to heal and make better choices in the future?

I so recognize the negative filter... Anything, how ever innocent, could be heard differently by my ex and then trigger him. There is no talking to or reasoning with someone who has such a filter. It's crazy making...

Because trying to reverse the tables "I didn't intend to hurt you either by saying xyz but you felt hurt nonetheless. So that then shouldn't count either... " doesn't work. Because no matter what you say or do, the pwBPD just knows you have said/done it on purpose.

... .am I glad I don't have to justify my every word or action anymore... .

I don't know what to say... .I really feel for everybody who is in these kinds of situations... .I am having a really hard time comprehending how someone can be so hurtful towards a person they love. I mean, I do understand that the driving force is always to feed theirselves either with pleasure, confirmation and all but still... .I hope we can all look back to these relationships in the future and laugh with ourselves for even trying to find logic in all of this.