How do I start the process of leaving with a HCP type husband?

[sweetheart]

Hi all,

I want to leave my dBPDh, but I know that he is a high conflict personality, low functioning when in crisis, a blamer and a pathological liar. He will do and say anything when he feels psychologically threatened. I know what he is capable of, he is someone who believes he has nothing to loose. This is how the illness manifests itself in him. He has never been physically violent toward me or threatened it. He is more likely to accuse me of this. I would never rule it out though. He will have never been in this situation before. We have been together 10 years. I am his first long term relationship. He will see this as loosing everything.

He has in the past when dysregulated made a serious of false accusations about me that were treated seriously by his care team even though they were well aware of his clinical presentation and diagnosis. This scares me. He has always been able to mask the worst of his illness, including psychosis from his care team. Since his old psychiatrist retired, his care team have always dismissed my concerns. Even when he was at his most unwell.

Lately, because he is unhappy with his life again, the level of verbal abuse is increasing. This is new. He seems to know that I won't create a fuss because of our son. I am guilty of doing anything of late to protect my son from what is happening. Even though I immediately remove myself when he is abusive he will still continue an abusive monologue about me to an empty room. Sometimes he will whisper personal insults and just keep repeating them whenever I am near him.

I have sought legal advice in the past, but when it came to it my husband denied he had said anything when his care team wanted to involve Adult safeguarding services.

My reality is I don't know how to extricate myself from the relationship in a way that creates the least amount of chaos. I am terrified of my h saying something about me as a parent, he has before. It is my Achilles heel, I would put up with abuse for fear of this. We have an 8 year old son who has recently be diagnosed with Aspergers and generalised anxiety disorder because of his social and emotional difficulties. Any day to day changes cause him immense amounts of stress. I want to protect him at all costs. My h has been able to keep intact his relationship with our son, it remains the most positive aspect of his whole life. To the very best of his ability, whatever the reason he has managed to not taint this relationship with his illness. His role as a father, is also identified by his care team as a protective factor in his life. The loss of this for him scares me too.

I want my h to leave the house and for me and my son to stay.

Finances are easy to separate.

I'm not in a rush, but I want out.

Is there a way I can start to withdraw from him that will cause him to disengage from me over time?

I don't want to make this harder for him than it needs to be. I will be ok. He won't, and that matters to me. Not in a FOG way, but as a human being who still loves this man very much.

If I sound conflicted I don't mean to be, but I am at a loss as to how to get through this in a way that creates the least amount of conflict.

[WoundedBibi]

To be honest if I were you I would focus on protecting you and your son. And with accusations by him that you cannot prove are untrue you can't do that. Have you ever thought about putting cameras around the house to record what happens?

About getting him to disengage from you, you cannot get anyone to do anything they don't want themselves. So I don't see at this point what you can do that will make him 'go off' you. Other than behaving as a woman that would turn him off. Stand up, don't take his sh*t anymore, talk back without getting emotional. But that behaviour WILL make him go into conflict mode. Peace and make him loose interest? I don't see the two coming together. I can see peace afterwards but not during the process of getting him to loose interest.

Have you any ideas yet on how to get him out? Or would that be the logical result of him not being interested in you anymore?

I think asking advice from a lawyer and a therapist with good qualifications and experience with partners of pwBPD might be a good starting point.

[vortex of confusion]

I have a couple of thoughts. Do you actively work with his care team? If so, is there somebody there that you could talk to about your desire to leave?

Is there a way to put a team together to advocate on behalf of your son and your husband in order to get you and your son out of this situation?

If you want to keep the house and stay in it with your son, where would your husband live? Does he have a place to go? Who is the primary breadwinner? Who is the primary caregiver for your son?

I more or less kicked my husband out of the house at the beginning of March. I knew he had a place to go and I had talked to family and friends about possible work arounds for child care, etc. Before I ever did it, I made sure that his mom knew what was going on. I secretly made sure he had a support team. I don't want to be with him and I can't live with him but I sure as heck didn't want to see him hurting and homeless.

My suggestion is to start laying the groundwork with all of the care teams if something like that is even possible.

What are the divorce laws in your area? If you can do a no fault divorce, then focus on that. I have worked really hard to try to stay neutral when talking to people outside of my little circle of trust. I don't tell anybody about the abusive aspect of things. I know that what my husband has done is abusive. All I want is out. If I have to play nice and play up the fact that it is a matter of us being incompatible, that is fine. I don't care. I want him to be gone and stay gone.

This might also be a good question for the legal board.

I know when I was done but had no clue how to leave somebody on here told me to focus on being more boring. Give short responses. Don't engage him in conversation. Figure out ways to be more boring. Only respond when necessary. It was a grueling couple of years before I finally worked up the nerve to actually do it. I was so afraid to do it.

[teapay]

What you wish to do would be difficult even in the best circumstances with well balanced people.   In essence, you are throwing him out, but are hoping to do it in a nice way, so he will take it alright and not cause a stir.  You can try to do it slowly and possibly try to give him something to replace the loss (?), feeling him out as you go, but eventually you and he will have to confront it openly.  What are the chances of him ever leaving willingly?

You might be better off taking a legal action initiative against him first if he is being abusive and get him in a comprised situation.  You can possibly use that as leverage to separate on terms more favorable to you and your son and then afterward permit things for him.  You can be kinder to him from a position of strength than you can in weakness. If you let him get the initiative, he might make a meal of you and fighting for your rights from the defensive is a much harder fight.

[LingeringNoMore]

Is there a domestic violence agency in your area?  They can help you start preparing for departure - gathering important documents, stashing away money... .

I lived for 6+ years with my BPD exh.  I always thought I couldn't leave because he would do a big drama thing (with MUCH evidence to support that his response would be drama).  Then, one bad thing happened, I refused to stay silent to keep the peace and a way opened up for me to leave.  it is new, I am grieving still, processing so many losses but I have my life back... .I feel joy... .I wouldn't go back for anything!

Protect your baby but that anxiety has to be related to the high drama in the home, right? 

Courage and blessings to you,

LNM

[livednlearned]

Hi sweetheart,

I'm so sorry you're in this position. I know it well  :'(

I left my N/BPDx/bipolar husband 6 years ago when my son (mild special needs) was 9.

Like teapay and others mentioned, divorce is traumatic even in the best of situations. Yet, for those of us married to high-conflict personalities, divorce can often be the lesser of two evils, especially with kids involved. It's a deeply personal decision, and does require a burst of strength and determination to get over that initial rough spot when you separate.

In most high-conflict divorces, parents say bad things about each other. It goes with the territory. Your H has two very serious medical diagnoses, and if you have the right strategy, you may get a much more favorable outcome than you imagine. Court tends to dismiss he-said, she-said testimony and focuses instead on documentation and third-party testimonials. When you are in a long-term relationship with a lot of verbal abuse and threats, it can be hard to imagine how the rest of the world sees our situations. We tend to get dragged down to look at things from 4 inches above ground. Going through courts, it's about the 30,000 foot view with a lot of documentation in order to discredit the 4 inch view.

If I were in your shoes, I would start compiling evidence and documentation, and consult with several lawyers. I'm not sure how it works where you are, but in the US it can cost $250USD or more to consult for an hour or so. The law is not quite as iron-clad as I once thought. In family court, there are judges who do things completely by the book, based on technicalities, and then there are judges who shoot from the hip and can be very intuitive. What made a difference in my situation is that I started to focus on reasonable solutions. Judges and family courts tend to see a lot of people who cannot solve their own problems, so when someone shows up with a solution, it tends to stand out. I tried to think about my case like the judge might, and preempted some of the black/white rulings that I knew would not work for our family.

I also took a year to prepare for my departure. My ex fell apart in his own high-functioning way, and like everyone else who goes through a divorce, he did reassemble himself to a certain extent. He is no longer in our lives by his choice, and my son's anxiety is abating to some extent, although the pain of having a mentally ill father and divorce on top of it does take a toll.

Another board you might want to look at in addition to Family Law here on the site is the Coparenting board, especially Lesson 5 about Raising a Resilient Child When a Parent Has BPD. A lot of that material pushed me to think about what resilience really means, and how to model that for my son, special needs and all.

We're going a lot better. There is light on the other side. 

LnL

[LilMe]

  sweetheart! I am one week out and no Internet at my new house yet so bear with me typing this on my phone!

For me, the turning point came when I read Patricia Evans and a couple other books about abuse. What he is doing to you is abuse! And if your son hears it that is child abuse! I was given a pamphlet about domestic violence and the law in my state. Words or actions that are offensive or threatening to an adult is a misdemeanor and towards or in the presence of a child is a felony in my state.  I think we get so used to these behaviors that we minimize how awful they really are!

Once I realized the seriousness of these behaviors and the damage that was happening to my children, my mama bear instincts kind of took over. This is not about us, the disordered adults, but the innocent children that are stuck with us by no choice of their own! You must read Splitting by Bill Eddy. You must find a good lawyer who understands domestic violence, children, and the system. Start keeping a journal. Once you start reading back over your journal you realize how sick things have become!  Keep any texts, emals, phone messages that are dysregulated, threatening, or mean.  Record as much as you can. Again, if your son is present during episodes it is child abuse and hurting him!

I naturally started pulling back. Not responding to his crazy. Staying calm and taking the children away from dysregulation every chance I got. Enforcing my boundaries no matter how badly he reacted. Generally separating emotionally. He noticed and escalated, but I managed to stay calm. My uBPD is blind and depends on me a lot. But I realized my children depend on me more and he will survive. He was suicidal for a couple days, but seems to be better now. I am almost completely out of the fog now!

It is hard to get your mind and body disentangled from the fog and dysfunction of this type of relationship. Hard! But let me tell you, even at only one week out, lots of unknowns (finances, custody, etc), I have real hope for a peaceful life for me and my children for the first time in the 10 years I was with my uBPD. I think the months gathering info to leave were the hardest in my life! But it is already soo worth it!

Be strong, do what your mama bear heart tells you, and you will make it out into the light!

[sweetheart]

Hi all,

I feel incapacitated by fear of loosing my son, it has me well and truly stuck. I didn't realise just how much the slow continuous verbal put downs about me being a bad mother are affecting me.  I am very much doubting myself here. He's saying I have Muchausens by Proxy because our son had to be assessed by an educational psychologist, and that I'm really a psychopath causing my sons problems like I have his.

He's in the kitchen with his mental health nurse now for the last hour lying about me, saying that I am abusing him by causing constant conflict in our home. I can hear him saying I am a threat to his safety and he feels vulnerable and at risk from me and now I am doing the same thing with our son. NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING!

I had to come write a post to stop myself running into the kitchen JADEing. I feel completely defenceless, but I am hoping his mental health team might offer to house him temporarily. This is crazy crazy making stuff, I keep thinking am I doing any of the things he is saying. My mind feels really befuddled, as though I might be inadvertently doing something to cause this. The thought that they believe him creates just so much anxiety.

I'm going to document events, I used to do it but I stopped. There is a mental health lawyer I have used before, if he can't work with me then I'm sure he will be able to recommend someone who can. Initial advice is free.

Sorry I haven't replied to comments, I will, but I just needed to calm myself down by posting so I wouldn't react to the situation in the kitchen

Do you know the awful thing about this now, is I feel crazy, how did that happen?

[livednlearned]

I'm glad you centered yourself and came here to post instead of JADE-ing.  His reality must be very distorted that he requires a mental health nurse to do in-home visits.

Do you know the awful thing about this now, is I feel crazy, how did that happen?

We're so hard-wired to bond with close others. When those close others are mentally ill, it affects us, deeply.

One of the reasons why false accusations/allegations stick is because it hits right in the bulls-eye of our greatest uncertainties and fears. You feel vulnerable about your son's well-being and care, and like many mothers, you wonder if you are doing enough, if you are doing your best, if you are making things worse. It is much easier to exploit those fears because they are the most tender.

You are also in a situation where two strong biological imperatives are competing. One is to stay bonded to your son's father, and the other is to protect your son. Being in a mentally ill marriage means having to choose one imperative over the other, and that is a difficult intersection for us to navigate emotionally and psychologically.

And at the same time, you probably have very little experience with family law and courts, and the power that they have to threaten your son's well-being (in light of your ex's mentally ill accusations) escalates anxiety to the max.

Getting a educational psychologist to test your school-age child is a very ordinary, caring parental thing to do. I did the same with my son, and my ex made the exact same accusations yours did, and then some.

I won't go through the details, only to say that it can be very centering to ask an L if your ex's accusations have any traction. Every single thing my ex accused me of was simply brushed away, either by my L or if things were raised in court, by the judge.

Munchausen's is a very difficult thing to prove and your H would have to be mentally competent to a degree it sounds like he is not in order to levy a case that could stand up in court.

He is rattling your cage because he can, and that is all.

If I could relive my experience again, I would allow myself to see that court was not my enemy, but my ally.

[Concerns]

I had to come write a post to stop myself running into the kitchen JADEing. I feel completely defenseless, but I am hoping his mental health team might offer to house him temporarily. This is crazy crazy making stuff, I keep thinking am I doing any of the things he is saying. My mind feels really befuddled, as though I might be inadvertently doing something to cause this. The thought that they believe him creates just so much anxiety.

I know you said he has been able to paint this picture to his care team and they have given little support to you. I feel this is another form of BPD isolation that they take advantage of in a system that is protective of a single person seeking therapy. I feel this has to be adjusted in cases involving BPD. It has to be a collaborative effort with affected family members.

In addition, I don't feel that you would be JADE'ing at all in this circumstance.  You have a right, as a sane person, to not allow lies to be generated in your presence. You do not have to be complicit when he is lying to someone of authority as to the state of your alleged "abuse". I feel it would be JADE'ing if you were trying to interact with the ill person specifically. It's a boundary. You can set it. I feel if someone is verbally abusing you to someone else then it's still abuse.

[LilMe]

I know how hard it is, Sweetheart!  My BPD also constantly tells me what a horrible mother I am.  Now that I am out and have proof that he is actually the parent damaging the children, it is easier to deal with.  Now I can see how crazy and wrong it actually is!  Please do not believe the lies!  :)o start journaling again.  :)o record the outbursts and dysregulations.  It will empower you!

There is nothing wrong with having your child evaluated.  My BPD also belittled my decision to get my children into counseling, but I do not want them to repeat the dysfunctional relationships that I have had in my life.  They deserve better.

You are brave and strong.  Courage is inside of you wanting to come out.  Your gut knows what is the right thing to do.  Have you practiced mindfulness?  If not, it is something really helpful to try.  Learning to calm yourself and clear your mind so that you can hear what your gut or wise mind is telling you.  Look online or maybe check your library for information on DBT or mindfulness.  Your voice is in there, trying to be heard, but it is drowned out by the 'recordings' of your husband in your mind.  You can learn to turn them off!

Keep posting - you will get through this and come out into the light!

[sweetheart]

Thank you all.

What was so weird was that I felt as though I was trapped inside his distorted reality hearing him talk about me. Our porch and kitchen are at the front of our house, and our lounge runs off our kitchen. I thought at the time I felt physically trapped when what was actually happening is that I was emotionally trapped, experiencing just how unwell he is.

When I eventually left the house those feelings left me immediately and I was my rational, focused self again. It was a very powerful thing which helped me shift something inside me and I could understand what has been happening for me emotionally in response to my husbands illness these last few months.

What came to mind immediately as I sat in my car was projective identification, my understanding of this was as a psychological concept only, but I now realise that I have at times been experiencing it. These last few months have felt like I was going mad, I have felt anxious, fearful, guilty, confused, crazy. My thoughts have been muddled, lacking clarity. It's like his illness has exerted a kind of covert emotional control over me and I lost the ability to separate out what belonged to who.

I have always understood completely that part of my relationship was holding some of the projected 'bad bits' for my husband, but I knew they belonged to him not me. It's like for a while there his madness took up residence in me. It is worth saying he is much more unwell of late, like he is only the illness.

I have been wrong footed lately because he changed his projections and blaming from full on dysregulated behaviour to an insidious stream of whispered insults about my capabilities as a mother. I was the only one who could hear them. I remember one evening a couple of weeks ago I asked him if he wanted me to write his appointments on the calendar. He started whispering the word 'c... .t' over and over again, I walked into the kitchen I said 'I want you stop calling me names' and he whispered 'You're a crazy effing b... ch, I'm not saying anything, you should be locked up not me.'

Guess what though a few days later I found myself wondering whether he really said it.

Like you said livednlearnedso much of the new insults hit right at my emotional centre as a mother. Ironically because of my husbands mental illness it has caused me to question on so many occasions whether I was being a good enough mother, and before my son was diagnosed with special needs I thought how he was was my fault.

Concerns you are of course right in what you say about putting my truth to his mental health nurse. The problem was in that moment I would not have been coherent, just a crazy emotional harridan. Everything he was saying I was! There are however other ways to address this issue with his care team, and VOC suggested talking with them. I will think about it some and post my ideas here first.

LilmeI feel as though I have been caught in something so powerful these last few months, until today I was not aware of what was happening. This stuff snuck up on me. I haven't been physically very well since the beginning of the year, so you're right I am usually strong, resilient and really quite focused, but I have felt weak and as we all know this is when this illness can consume us. Mindfulness is a great suggestion, and I have some techniques I can draw upon again to centre myself again.

[teapay]

SH,

I know some have already recommended you check the legal board, so I don't want to belabor it, but it is very helpful especially if you dig back through the archives.

But more than the boards and the lawyers, I suggest you hook up with a good friend locally who is clear thinking and very tough to help you through the times were you own thinking and will falter and fear sets in.  Don't know if you have someone like that, but if not find one.

[LilMe]

Ugh!  I can totally relate to the whispered abuse.  I actually recorded some of it too.  You can barely hear it on the recording, but you can hear it and it is really creepy to listen to.  It totally freaked my lawyer out.

Even now that I am out and trying to be NC as much as possible, my BPD has been leaving multiple phone messages each day.  He keeps saying that we yelled at each other.  I actually started to second guess myself and asked my children if I yelled at their father.  They looked at me like I was crazy and said no.  Well duh, I have multiple recordings of him yelling at me while I was quiet or quietly asked him to calm down and stop in front of the children.  It is crazy how they can affect our memories and sanity!

[LingeringNoMore]

Do you know the awful thing about this now, is I feel crazy, how did that happen?

That is EXACTLY why I logged in tonight!  Stay strong, document everything (what a great plan!)  Protect your child. 

Much Love,

LMN