Is this assumption about people with BPD true?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

It's been a little over half a year since I broke up with my BPD wife. It's been a crazy rollercoaster and since the break-up I've done lots of research about BPD. To try and understand it as best as I can, I would like to ask if the following is true.

1. Parents are able to have unconditional love for their children. There is no really such thing as unconditional love for a romantic partner, because there are conditions to such a (healthy) relationship.

2. People with BPD usually had a troubled/broken relationship with one, or both of their parents and thus did not receive that unconditional love.

3. Because the BPD person missed the unconditional love in their childhood they have a big void inside themselves. They try to fill that void, cause by a lack of unconditional love, with a romantic partner, who can only really give them conditional love.

4. During the relationship, the BPD person usually will put their partner through a rollercoaster (in my case: crazy accusations, lying, painting me black, cheating, etc.)



5. (This is what I'm most curious about): Consciously or unconsciously, the reason they behave like this is to continuously check if the love of their partner for them really is unconditional. This is what they have always missed, this is the huge void that finally seems filled. It's like a neverending hunger for confirmation that the love of their partner is unconditional. The fear of losing this is so big that keep testing it and also increase the severity of their methods.

6. This ironically leads to actually losing their partner (be it by their partner leaving or convincing themselves to leave themselves) and making their own biggest fear a reality.

So step 5-6 is just me logically trying to tie some ends together... .but I have no idea if this is really true. If someone can shed some light on this, I would appreciate it.

[Musicmaker1]

It's been a little over half a year since I broke up with my BPD wife. It's been a crazy rollercoaster and since the break-up I've done lots of research about BPD. To try and understand it as best as I can, I would like to ask if the following is true.

1. Parents are able to have unconditional love for their children. There is no really such thing as unconditional love for a romantic partner, because there are conditions to such a (healthy) relationship.

2. People with BPD usually had a troubled/broken relationship with one, or both of their parents and thus did not receive that unconditional love.

3. Because the BPD person missed the unconditional love in their childhood they have a big void inside themselves. They try to fill that void, cause by a lack of unconditional love, with a romantic partner, who can only really give them conditional love.

4. During the relationship, the BPD person usually will put their partner through a rollercoaster (in my case: crazy accusations, lying, painting me black, cheating, etc.)



5. (This is what I'm most curious about): Consciously or unconsciously, the reason they behave like this is to continuously check if the love of their partner for them really is unconditional. This is what they have always missed, this is the huge void that finally seems filled. It's like a neverending hunger for confirmation that the love of their partner is unconditional. The fear of losing this is so big that keep testing it and also increase the severity of their methods.

6. This ironically leads to actually losing their partner (be it by their partner leaving or convincing themselves to leave themselves) and making their own biggest fear a reality.

So step 5-6 is just me logically trying to tie some ends together... .but I have no idea if this is really true. If someone can shed some light on this, I would appreciate it.

[Infern0]

Its a reasonable summery, yes.

[bunny4523]

Hi Musicmaker1,

1- Are you referring to parents that have BPD or parents of a child with BPD?  My exBPD partner had children and although he had alot of love for his children it followed the same idealize and devalue pattern as he did with me.  It troubled me at first when I didn't understand what was going on.  I also saw it with his relationship with his siblings and mother.

2 - I read that BPD could be caused by lack of early childhood needs being met.  

Have you checked out the videos on this site under the tab personality disorders?  If you watch them it isn't so much a testing thing they do.  It's more of a way they process emotions.  Emotions over rule blatant facts.  If they feel it, it is true. PERIOD.  That's why the next day or hour their feelings can be completely opposite because it is about what they feel right then... . 

One minute, "Let's stay friends." the next he is changing the locks on me because he can't trust me.  Completely impulsive... .it's nuts.  Just try and remember they process differently so don't try too hard to get in their heads.

Bunny

   

[WoundedBibi]

It's been a little over half a year since I broke up with my BPD wife. It's been a crazy rollercoaster and since the break-up I've done lots of research about BPD. To try and understand it as best as I can, I would like to ask if the following is true.

1. Parents are able to have unconditional love for their children. There is no really such thing as unconditional love for a romantic partner, because there are conditions to such a (healthy) relationship.

2. People with BPD usually had a troubled/broken relationship with one, or both of their parents and thus did not receive that unconditional love.

3. Because the BPD person missed the unconditional love in their childhood they have a big void inside themselves. They try to fill that void, cause by a lack of unconditional love, with a romantic partner, who can only really give them conditional love.

4. During the relationship, the BPD person usually will put their partner through a rollercoaster (in my case: crazy accusations, lying, painting me black, cheating, etc.)



5. (This is what I'm most curious about): Consciously or unconsciously, the reason they behave like this is to continuously check if the love of their partner for them really is unconditional. This is what they have always missed, this is the huge void that finally seems filled. It's like a neverending hunger for confirmation that the love of their partner is unconditional. The fear of losing this is so big that keep testing it and also increase the severity of their methods.

6. This ironically leads to actually losing their partner (be it by their partner leaving or convincing themselves to leave themselves) and making their own biggest fear a reality.

So step 5-6 is just me logically trying to tie some ends together... .but I have no idea if this is really true. If someone can shed some light on this, I would appreciate it.

I wrote a lengthy answer and then the system logged me off 

Part of what I wanted to say I wrote in the thread "why do they break up". If you go read that, I'll get back to you later 

[Stripey77]

That is a brilliant summary.

Although, of course, without knowing the intimate details of our ex's childhood, we can't presume to know the exact reasons why they are the way they are; i.e. what made them like that. But if not exactly that, it's almost certainly something like it.

The 'being put to the test' thing resonates with me most of all. I remember commenting to friends or my parents that I was beginning to feel that I was being tested... .over and again. And every time I 'passed' a test, there was of course another one to fail... .which you will undoubtedly do. You are always set up to fail. I didn't read his mind and work out that he wanted to go home on a night out when he asked me if I'd like to go for one last drink. I bought him a beer that he didn't ask for - so it was my fault that he drank it and hence was over the drink-drive limit. (Oh, that story I'm saving for a rainy day)  I passed the test in which I was frog marched, without warning, up the beach to meet his female best friend when I thought we were out on a day trip together, just the two of us. I passed because I didn't complain or throw an attitude about it even though I was absolutely fuming inside. I passed that test, the poor unfortunate before me did not, and that's what sealed her fate and ended their relationship.  There is always a test.

And because of this, the list of bad behaviours we are supposed to overlook and let go, grows and grows and grows. This is often referred to as 'walking on eggshells'... .we allow thing to take place we wouldn't allow, normally, in an effort to keep the peace. It's done surreptitiously and slowly, as a form of control, woven tightly together as it is with lots of love, adoration, fun, great sex... .etc. etc. So you overlook the tests and give, as you, say, unconditional love. They take more and more, and we never say no and attach conditions, because at the time, the pros seem to so massively outweigh the cons. We, the nons, don't want to lose a good thing, so we let those things slide. And hey presto, we are giving our love away without the proper conditions attached. 

[vortex of confusion]

1. Parents are able to have unconditional love for their children. There is no really such thing as unconditional love for a romantic partner, because there are conditions to such a (healthy) relationship.

How do you define unconditional love? I think it is important to make a few distinctions. I think a lot of people mistake unconditional love for letting somebody get away with anything and everything. If my child were to commit a heinous crime, I would love them but I would not and could not support them or make excuses for their behavior. I am not sure how to articulate what my thinking is. I still love  my stbx. I don't think that will ever change. Having love for him does not mean that I should allow him to treat me in ways that are disrespectful. I can have love for him without wanting to live with him or be in a relationship with him. Love is something that can't just be turned on and off like a water spigot. I think all relationships should have some sort of conditions, even if it is a parent/child relationship.

2. People with BPD usually had a troubled/broken relationship with one, or both of their parents and thus did not receive that unconditional love.

I really wonder about that. My stbx didn't have a troubled or broken relationship with his parents. From the outside, they looked like the perfect family. How many parents are on the forum with kids that have BPD? I bet every last one of them would say that they love their child unconditionally. I think there is more too it than just having a trouble or broken relationship with a parent. I read somewhere on this site that having a mismatch between parent and child personalities could also contribute to the development of BPD. The parent tries like crazy but does not "get" the child the way he/she needs to be gotten. There was all sorts of unconditional love. The child was not able to see it or feel it. 

3. Because the BPD person missed the unconditional love in their childhood they have a big void inside themselves. They try to fill that void, cause by a lack of unconditional love, with a romantic partner, who can only really give them conditional love.

I think they have a big void inside themselves. I don't know that it is necessarily caused by unconditional love in their childhood. I have also read that a traumatic event that was never addressed or dealt with could lead to that big void. I think a lot of my stbx's void came from the fact that his grandma (who really got him and encouraged him in a way that he felt) passed away at a critical age of his development. He never dealt with that trauma so it stunted his emotional growth. No amount of love from his parents could erase that trauma or fill that void.

5. (This is what I'm most curious about):[/b] Consciously or unconsciously, the reason they behave like this is to continuously check if the love of their partner for them really is unconditional. This is what they have always missed, this is the huge void that finally seems filled. It's like a neverending hunger for confirmation that the love of their partner is unconditional. The fear of losing this is so big that keep testing it and also increase the severity of their methods.

I think it is less about the partner and more about them. I say this because I don't feel like my stbx was testing me at all. I feel like he was clueless and was doing things to help him regulate himself. It was all about filling the void through whatever means he could whether it was sex addiction, video games, reading, or something else. I don't think he cared about love. I don't think he cared about whether or not my love was unconditional. It was all about him. None of it was about me at all. He didn't even realize that some of the stuff that he was doing to me was hurtful. He lacked empathy and could not see outside of himself at all. He still can't see how some of the things that he did were wrong or hurtful to me.

6. This ironically leads to actually losing their partner (be it by their partner leaving or convincing themselves to leave themselves) and making their own biggest fear a reality.

I don't think my stbx ever feared losing me at all. He treated me as an extension of himself and therefore could not consider the possibility of me leaving. Even now, he doesn't seem to comprehend that I am done. I have moved on and am seeing somebody else. If I hadn't stood up for myself and asked him to leave, he would still be doing the same things because he didn't even consider the possibility that there might be conditions. When he got bored with me, instead of doing the work involved in maintaining the relationship, he solution was "let's see other people". That was after being married for 15 years and having 4 kids together. He cannot comprehend that I am not okay with him telling me that he wants to be with me while chasing after other women. He is so self centered and clueless that none of that even occurs to him or makes sense to him.

So step 5-6 is just me logically trying to tie some ends together... .but I have no idea if this is really true. If someone can shed some light on this, I would appreciate it.

I don't think there is any logic to any of it. The more I tried to understand it, the more dizzy I felt. I tried to figure out my role in things or what it was that was going on with him so that maybe I could fix things. The bottom line is that it is impossible because he lives in his own little fantasy world that I am not allowed in unless I buy into whatever impulsive thing it is that he wants. He wants what he wants without regard to anyone else. It is like being around a toddler that doesn't see him/herself as separate from the parent and does not comprehend how the world operates. That is a bit of a crude description but I think it kind of captures the fact that a person with BPD has emotional growth that has been stunted for some reason. It is like they are stuck in a perpetual state of childhood.

[fromheeltoheal]

5. (This is what I'm most curious about): Consciously or unconsciously, the reason they behave like this is to continuously check if the love of their partner for them really is unconditional. This is what they have always missed, this is the huge void that finally seems filled. It's like a neverending hunger for confirmation that the love of their partner is unconditional. The fear of losing this is so big that keep testing it and also increase the severity of their methods.

Think attachments with borderlines.  Not having a fully formed self of their own, a borderline looks for folks to attach to, a replaying of that earliest bond with their primary caregiver that they never successfully detached from.  An attachment is not a partnership of two autonomous individuals, it's an unhealthy fusing of psyches to create a 'whole' person, and it's unstable, with the borderline constantly fearing both abandonment and engulfment and trying to straddle the fence between those two opposing fears, which causes the push/pull behavior we're familiar with.

This ironically leads to actually losing their partner (be it by their partner leaving or convincing themselves to leave themselves) and making their own biggest fear a reality.

Yep.  Borderlines can be convinced that everyone will abandon them eventually, and add the rising intensity of emotional dysregulation triggered by intimacy, and the behaviors used to deal with those like the lying and cheating you mention, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, one way or the other.

[Stripey77]

 Vortex... .I'm no expert but I've done an awful lot of reading    Some of the behaviours of your ex that you describe sound more like those of a narcissist than BPD... .or am I misunderstanding something? Being treated as an extension of himself... .not caring about love... .not empathetic. Those are NPD traits aren't they?  I have a best friend who had a NPD husband so I have heard a fair amount about it. I wouldn't necessarily attribute those traits to BPD. To the best of my understanding, they care very much about love... .

Also, the unconditional love thing. That's just it - that's exactly what unconditional love is.  That, in spite of what a person has said or done, you still love them. Even if your child has committed a crime, you said yourself, you would still love them. That's not the same thing as supporting it or justifying the crime, it means that the blood tie, the parent/child bond, the love, is stronger.  I agree, unconditional love is NOT letting someone getting away with anything. It is still loving someone, whatever they have done or whoever they turn out to be. In the case of a parent/child relationship, the assumption is that the love is there, for life, because you brought that child into the world and they are part of you.

People who say to romantic partners "I love you unconditionally" are kidding themselves and aren't really examining the meaning behind those words. Of course there are conditions attached; for example - don't cheat on me, don't hit me, don't get blind drunk every night, don't betray me, don't give me the silent treatment for 3 weeks... .and so on. In a healthy relationship, if these basic conditions are not met, then we leave. People as a whole, don't tend to leave a parent/child relationship, it is for life, whatever has happened. And the love - not necessarily the like- is still there. That's what makes it unconditional.

[GoingBack2OC]

Vortex... .I'm no expert but I've done an awful lot of reading    Some of the behaviours of your ex that you describe sound more like those of a narcissist than BPD... .or am I misunderstanding something? Being treated as an extension of himself... .not caring about love... .not empathetic. Those are NPD traits aren't they?  I have a best friend who had a NPD husband so I have heard a fair amount about it. I wouldn't necessarily attribute those traits to BPD. To the best of my understanding, they care very much about love... .

Also, the unconditional love thing. That's just it - that's exactly what unconditional love is.  That, in spite of what a person has said or done, you still love them. Even if your child has committed a crime, you said yourself, you would still love them. That's not the same thing as supporting it or justifying the crime, it means that the blood tie, the parent/child bond, the love, is stronger.  I agree, unconditional love is NOT letting someone getting away with anything. It is still loving someone, whatever they have done or whoever they turn out to be. In the case of a parent/child relationship, the assumption is that the love is there, for life, because you brought that child into the world and they are part of you.

People who say to romantic partners "I love you unconditionally" are kidding themselves and aren't really examining the meaning behind those words. Of course there are conditions attached; for example - don't cheat on me, don't hit me, don't get blind drunk every night, don't betray me, don't give me the silent treatment for 3 weeks... .and so on. In a healthy relationship, if these basic conditions are not met, then we leave. People as a whole, don't tend to leave a parent/child relationship, it is for life, whatever has happened. And the love - not necessarily the like- is still there. That's what makes it unconditional.

Good points Stripey.  I'd have to add however, that my exGF, while I feel in many ways used me, was the utter definition of unflexible, judging, and believed basically in "punishment"-- ie: do anything wrong and I will teach you a lesson. Silent Treatment Time.  She would never of course say this. She would dish out silent treatment, and claim she wasnt ignoring me at all, her phone got lost, she had been busy, and so on. If she believes I actually believed all that- and that helps her get through life, I guess OK.

Of course I can and could walk away, and I did at one point.

But I think despite all the terrible things she did, said, and the things she brought out in me, I do in some ways love her unconditionally, as I will always care for her. I honestly, hurt for her in some ways. I wonder why, what really happened, to make this beautiful girl I loved, and still love, so much, act this way, be this way.

No one chooses to be the way she was. She's not happy. She ended up finally discarding me after I basically laid out that I see right to her core. I listed it out, this is what you do... .

Once she was aware I basically saw right through the smoke and mirrors, she literally tossed me in the trash. After 5 years. Her last words were Shut Up.

What healthy person would end 5 years like that? I asked her to at least just say good bye. I wrote a very nice goodbye to her. Never a response. It hurts. I don't hate her.

All it says to me is:  Inside, she is very angry. Her heart is filled with hate and she cannot forgive. Why is she like that. I feel incredibly bad for her. I really do.

The same could be said (and I hope I don't get bashed for saying this), but a serial killer.  Many people would say send them to the electric chair. Gas them. But I always have been one to try to step inside and look at a situation from all angles. To me, the serial killer did horrible things. He must be dealt with. But I also feel in some ways bad for them, because no one would "choose" to be that. I mean, if, before we were born, we were given options of what we would "be", no one would chose that.

Whether its genetics, environment, things that happened, neglect, abuse, the way their brain is wired... .they got dealt a crappy hand, a really crappy hand.

Perhaps I am too empathetic. 

[HurtinNW]

I don't think my ex was testing me. These are disorders of emotionally immaturity. Think toddler level. When a toddler has a major tantrum in a store because mommy won't buy him candy, it's because he is angry. He's screaming because he's mad, and in the moment that is all that matters. When he screams, "I hate you!" at his mother, he isn't thinking about how mommy feels or the consequences of his actions.

Ideally in childhood we learn to control the behaviors around anger even as we recognize the feeling. The toddler learns that screaming is not okay, even if he is mad. He develops a conscience and empathy. He feels guilty at the hurt expression on his mother's face. Later he wants to made amends, and says sorry to mommy, and she gives him a hug and promises next time will go better. Every little exchange like that are ways we learn not just to control our behaviors but that we are human beings with feelings, that we can make mistakes, that other people matter. We learn to self-reflect.

There is really wonderful work in the field of child welfare on how children learn empathy. Stanley Greenspan was one doctor who showed children learn everything through attachment. In fact, there are many studies that show it is better for children to be abused than neglected, because at least abuse involves an (unhealthy) attachment. Neglect, including be raised by cold parents, has profound negative impact on children. They do not learn how to exist in connectivity. This means they lack a sense of "self" because in the end, our sense of self is a sense of humanity. It is the reflection we see in the eyes of others, to deep internal knowledge that we exist as separate entities who are both connected and apart.

I believe many BPD/NPD people never developed this sense of self. They are stuck at infancy or toddler ages of not being able to separate out their feelings from others, impulse and consequence, where they end and others begin. In the case of my ex other people are like objects to him. He cannot empathize and so therefore the only one who counts is him, screaming in the store. It's truly heartbreaking.

I know my ex did want love. What I am realizing now is he had no idea what that was, how it felt or what it meant. It terrified him and angered him. So when he raged over something he wasn't testing me at all. He was simply voicing the reality of the only person who could matter to him in the moment: himself. Deep under there I could see the hurt, confused children, so wanting direction and support and acceptance. Unfortunately, as an adult he had developed the intellectual capacity to justify why it was all my fault.

Many of our partners broke up with us. I think for my ex it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Again like the toddler, screaming at mommy in the store, only this toddler is capable of getting into his car, hurling some nasty insults, and speeding away. But I don't think they experience abandonment like we assume they will. For my ex it is a sophistic depression. He wallows in blame and justification. It is sophistic in the sense it seems like a depression but is fallacious and self-serving. Under that maudlin shell, however, is a person who must be in such pain that he cannot even recognize it.

As far as the NPD or BPD question, I think a lot of partners share traits of both.

[hergestridge]

My xwife used to give me the silent treatment and subject me to these awful trial-like "we have to talk"-sessions. After these one of those sessions she was always full of regret and say she didn't know what got into he. Once I told her that if she didn't treat me good I will eventually leave her because I can't cope with it. I was really afraid to tell her, but I had to.

She was devastated. She brought it up time and time again, that I once threatened to leave her. I told her that unless she gives me a hard time, I won't leave. But that was it. She realized my love was conditioned. She realized I was human, that I had boundaries. I had failed her.

I was raised to believe in unconditional love. I was raised to believe that people are essentially good and that relationships don't have to end unless the participants really, really f*ck up. I never understood that I can't let people cross my boundaries. I let people cross my boundaries and imagined I would be paid in loyalty or in karma.

I'm not a very religious person, but I think that the idea of a god is a construct that lets us differentiate between inhuman and extra-human capabilities. Conditional love is the way people do (and should) relate to the people they care about. Unconditional love is divine and forgets and forgives in a way that would be unnatural and unhealthy for man.

I might feel that I love my current partner unconditionally, but that is just a feeling. Part of the reason I love her is because she loves me. Our love deepened when we started having sex, spending more time together and showing each other affection openly. If she would refuse to be physical with me and reducing our meetings to a couple of hours every third month, I'm quite sure I wouldn't love her as much. Love is something we make each other feel and it's something we active keep alive.

Unconditional love is a beautiful thought but not grounded in reality. It's a high ideal and an interesting thought.

[Stripey77]

Hergestridge -

Perfectly put.   

[GreenEyedMonster]

1. Parents are able to have unconditional love for their children. There is no really such thing as unconditional love for a romantic partner, because there are conditions to such a (healthy) relationship.

How do you define unconditional love? I think it is important to make a few distinctions. I think a lot of people mistake unconditional love for letting somebody get away with anything and everything. If my child were to commit a heinous crime, I would love them but I would not and could not support them or make excuses for their behavior. I am not sure how to articulate what my thinking is. I still love  my stbx. I don't think that will ever change. Having love for him does not mean that I should allow him to treat me in ways that are disrespectful. I can have love for him without wanting to live with him or be in a relationship with him. Love is something that can't just be turned on and off like a water spigot. I think all relationships should have some sort of conditions, even if it is a parent/child relationship.

You may be angry at a child who messes up, but you do not threaten to cease being their parent and drop them off at the adoption agency to be rid of them forever.  THAT is the key difference here.  The bond still exists and you are still there for that person.  For a pwBPD, abandonment is always imminent in their minds.  If you set boundaries with them in a way that uses abandonment as a constant threat, e.g., "I just don't know if I'm happy in this relationship because you keep doing X," you bring up a spectre of their childhood abuse each time.

Imagine, for example, the feeling of a gay person coming out to very religious parents who will disagree with the life choice, or a teenage girl telling her parents she's pregnant.  That feeling that your parents might not want you after they find out the truth.

By the way, I work with teens, and when we talk about healthy relationships, the counselors and experts teach the kids that it is not a good relationship if your partner is constantly threatening to leave you in order to get what they want from you.  Turning issues into ultimatums doesn't show love and consideration for your partner.  For someone with abandonment fears especially, they feel that they literally have no choice to do what you want -- the alternative is reliving abuse and going through serious trauma.  It's sort of an unspoken thing in a romantic relationship that you have that leverage, and that you can set conditions of being in the relationship.  Constantly reminding someone of that is abusive.

My grandfather -- who is almost 100 years old -- just got out of an abusive relationship.  Not kidding.  His stb-ex wife kept showing up at the nursing home and telling him that if he couldn't learn to act more "dignified" and "manly" in spite of his illness that she was leaving him.  She has already decided to leave and move away and she keeps showing up and telling him that if he does x, y, and z, she will love him again.  It's heartbreaking.  He keeps wanting to see her because he loves her.  (I wish she'd go away so that he can begin his recovery.)  He tries and tries to meet her demands . . . then she comes up with something else.  Sad.

What I'm talking about here is beyond setting your personal boundaries in a relationship.  It's when your boundaries become laws that the other person has to follow, and you can't sit down and talk.

[WoundedBibi]

You may be angry at a child who messes up, but you do not threaten to cease being their parent and drop them off at the adoption agency to be rid of them forever.

Well... .actually my mum did.

[GreenEyedMonster]

You may be angry at a child who messes up, but you do not threaten to cease being their parent and drop them off at the adoption agency to be rid of them forever.

Well... .actually my mum did.

Sorry to hear that  :'(

[hergestridge]

You may be angry at a child who messes up, but you do not threaten to cease being their parent and drop them off at the adoption agency to be rid of them forever.

Well... .actually my mum did.

My mom didn't threaten to do that. She just did it.

[JerryRG]

I'm sorry to hear this and how hurtful

My parents would fight into the early morning when my dad would get drunk. They would wake my twin sister and I up and ask us who we were going with because they were divorcing. Of course my sister always wanted mother so I had no choice, I was to live with my father. By this age my mother had convinced me my dad was a raving insane man who would eventually kill us all in our sleep.

She hid his guns and she would hide his knives to protect us. I know these things happen and no parent is The Brady Bunch but it does leave scars for small children of 7 or 8.

I vowed to love my children and never behave like my parents but I made plenty of mistakes, my children are pretty well adjusted and happy and none are drug addicts or alcoholics and owe thanks to God for them.