Worrying and Confusing News about my Ex

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello team detachers!

I was in a group setting on Saturday evening when I overheard news about my ex. In general I am avoiding any contact, including second-hand talk about him, but I was with a group that knows of him, and while we were all politely avoiding the subject, one woman who has some issues herself brought him up.

She said some stuff that really threw me for a loop. She said he was really struggling, that he wasn't able to function at all, he was in a total depression and that she had talked to him on the phone and was suggesting to him that he check himself into the hospital.

I felt guilty, confused, hurt and worried.

My ex has a history of going into a full-on, theatrical, narcissistic collapse every time he breaks up with me. He makes a big deal about how sad and hurt he is, painting himself as a victim. I've posted about how maudlin and over the top this tragic victim act gets. He's very much a male waif and wants to be rescued.

Of course once he gets rescued by recycling he turns into a bitter, angry person, but that is another story.

Now it sounds like he is 1) either really getting over the top in his depressed act or 2) truly is non-functioning and very depressed, because he realizes this is the end and I am detaching. I am guessing in a weird way maybe both are true.

Part of the reason I felt worried is my ex has been unemployed for several years. He is running out of money. He needs to sell his house. In fact he was going to be selling it when he broke up with me (again). So I know his collapse, if it is happening, is part of his further decline from success to disaster. I can't help but feel sad and heartache about it. I know this is probably codependency to even think about it.

I don't know what to make of this news. Frankly it feels manipulative, like my ex is deliberately making a big public spectacle of his victim act, almost like he is going to punish himself to punish me.

I'm having a hard time moving past it and telling myself not to worry or think about him. I know he made his own bed, but it's hard not to feel guilt and anger and worry. It's also hard not to feel like this is an effort to get me to reach out to him.

[HurtinNW]

Hello team detachers!

I was in a group setting on Saturday evening when I overheard news about my ex. In general I am avoiding any contact, including second-hand talk about him, but I was with a group that knows of him, and while we were all politely avoiding the subject, one woman who has some issues herself brought him up.

She said some stuff that really threw me for a loop. She said he was really struggling, that he wasn't able to function at all, he was in a total depression and that she had talked to him on the phone and was suggesting to him that he check himself into the hospital.

I felt guilty, confused, hurt and worried.

My ex has a history of going into a full-on, theatrical, narcissistic collapse every time he breaks up with me. He makes a big deal about how sad and hurt he is, painting himself as a victim. I've posted about how maudlin and over the top this tragic victim act gets. He's very much a male waif and wants to be rescued.

Of course once he gets rescued by recycling he turns into a bitter, angry person, but that is another story.

Now it sounds like he is 1) either really getting over the top in his depressed act or 2) truly is non-functioning and very depressed, because he realizes this is the end and I am detaching. I am guessing in a weird way maybe both are true.

Part of the reason I felt worried is my ex has been unemployed for several years. He is running out of money. He needs to sell his house. In fact he was going to be selling it when he broke up with me (again). So I know his collapse, if it is happening, is part of his further decline from success to disaster. I can't help but feel sad and heartache about it. I know this is probably codependency to even think about it.

I don't know what to make of this news. Frankly it feels manipulative, like my ex is deliberately making a big public spectacle of his victim act, almost like he is going to punish himself to punish me.

I'm having a hard time moving past it and telling myself not to worry or think about him. I know he made his own bed, but it's hard not to feel guilt and anger and worry. It's also hard not to feel like this is an effort to get me to reach out to him.

[tryingsome]

One of the things my ex who had BPD would say to me was I was controlling or overlording. Trying to make her feel in a way that she should feel.

And she was right. My capacity to care made her feel as I was trying to dictate that she is doing the grieving or anger the wrong way (or for no reason at all).

Those were her feelings.

Now look at your situation; these are her feelings and choices. There is nothing to get yourself muddled up in.

When a pwBPD wants something they will let you know. And if they don't then it is NOT your fault.

Let her be. Do not worry the reason or cause or the 'if she would listen one more time'

It's not your life. And that is all pwBPD want-- to know you accept them for the life they live.

[hope2727]

I am so sorry you are feeling like this. I felt it too.

I NEVER hear about mine anymore which is just as well. However he did end up in inpatient care after we broke up. I was so concerned but then realized it was the best place for him. At least he would get the care he needed.

I do know his house is now worth less then he paid for it. I don't know if he is still in it or not. I don't know if he has moved in with my replacement although I can't see him not by now. I don't know if he is still in his job or not. And no matter what none of that is my business, concern or problem. He is not in my life and as much as I love him I can't concern myself with his problems anymore.

He is an adult and has all the resources of other adults. This includes mental health care providers, real estate and investment advisors, financial planners and everything else. So if he is destitute living under a bridge as much as I am sorry for him I can't involve myself anymore. And in reality I know he isn't as he likes his creature comforts to much and will always find someone to cry the blues to and save him.

Like so many things they have to hit rock bottom. In the case of your person maybe this is his. Maybe not. Either way its not your responsibility any more.

Meanwhile I have a NNAB policy (no news about B) I simply walk away or interrupt and change the subject. Sad but true.

[HurtinNW]

This is all good advice, thank you! I think I need to develop a strategy to walk away/exit when people are talking about him. Or say something clean and simple, like "It's too painful for me to hear about him."

I saw my counselor this evening and talked about it. She said something interesting, which she often does. She said dealing with people with narcissism is hard because they are always changing the game on you. You think you are playing chess, but they turn it to backgammon. You adjust, and it is chutes and ladders. You spin around, confused, and they are now playing scrabble. She said this: "You will never, ever win against this person, because he will just change the rules."

The point is any way I respond to his maudlin victim act doesn't matter. Nothing gets inside. He hears what he wants to hear, orchestrates people to think what he wants them to think, and if it doesn't work it doesn't matter, he's off to a new game.

It was the first time I really got a sense of the madness inside NPD, how my ex can be making such a mess of his life and be completely immersed in the process... .and while pretending he is sad about it. It is like a series of mirrors. You can't get to the person behind them.

So completely, utterly sad.

[Suspicious1]

I think it's so difficult because it can feel like a sudden re-drawing of boundaries. You and he are the same people, regardless of whether or not you exist within the scope of a relationship, and you can't just cut off from the past. That means you can still have feelings and perhaps feel a certain amount of responsibility for a fellow human being that you've been close to and have helped in the past. For the record, I don't see this as co-dependency (I've come to despise that label) - it's healthy behaviour to offer assistance to those you love and are in a relationship with; where it becomes unhealthy is where it negatively affects either of you, or you are imposing your help, or offering it inappropriately.

On that point, I do think it becomes inappropriate to keep helping a person when you are in the process of detaching from them. That doesn't mean you're not going to feel that pull though, and the anxiety you get when someone you've been involved with is in trouble. Of course if you are asked for help, you might chose to signpost them to where they can obtain it rather than leaving them in the cold, but at some point you have to step away and let them work it out alone. And unless he is particularly vulnerable, I'm sure he *can*. Like hope2727 said, he has the same access to help as anyone else. Once he's been pointed in that direction, it's his responsibility.

I hear you though. My ex made a suicide attempt while we were together, and I treat mental health emergencies the same as I would physical emergencies. I had to access help for him in a life-or-death situation. Because of that, he discarded me the very next day, but I still had information that his health-care providers needed, and before I stepped away totally I saw it as my responsibility to pass it on so that they could care for him properly once I'd gone. As soon as I'd done that, I stepped away. I did, however, try to keep in contact with his family. I didn't know if he'd lived or died, and that was incredibly difficult to deal with. Co-dependent? No, just human. But after I knew I'd done what I could and he was in safe hands, I had to walk way for my own good. He was the one who cut me off, after all. But I knew that, if he died, I had done the right thing and could live knowing I had at least shown some integrity. That was important to me.

Like yours, my ex could play the victim. He'd put himself in all sorts of uncomfortable and dangerous situations in order to punish other people. The only way to deal with it is not feed it.

[patientandclear]

Hurt, for your consideration: he should be depressed and distressed. Dysfunctional coping mechanisms have shredded something really important and valuable, maybe the most precious aspect of his life--his r/ship with you.

When you say it is worrying--I would say it would be more worrying if he were not depressed and falling apart.

If indeed that is his reaction (and I understand why you may suspect a layer of manipulation or self-rationalization in it) ... .well, that is a natural, appropriate reaction to what has happened. Maybe, if true, it is actually relatively good news.

When my ex wBPD first left me, though he did not communicate it at the time, he later explained how miserable and conflicted he then felt in the ensuring weeks and months. He called it an "ordeal that permanently and profoundly changed" him. (Then he took up with his ex so, maybe not so permanently.) Anyway, the pain that comes when you sabotage something good in your life is valuable. Maybe he will use it. In my case, it was not enough for my ex to make profound changes. But I don't think it was bad that he agonized--and I don't mean that in a vindictive way, I mean it is potentially constructive.

[WoundedBibi]

This is all good advice, thank you! I think I need to develop a strategy to walk away/exit when people are talking about him. Or say something clean and simple, like "It's too painful for me to hear about him."

I saw my counselor this evening and talked about it. She said something interesting, which she often does. She said dealing with people with narcissism is hard because they are always changing the game on you. You think you are playing chess, but they turn it to backgammon. You adjust, and it is chutes and ladders. You spin around, confused, and they are now playing scrabble. She said this: "You will never, ever win against this person, because he will just change the rules."

The point is any way I respond to his maudlin victim act doesn't matter. Nothing gets inside. He hears what he wants to hear, orchestrates people to think what he wants them to think, and if it doesn't work it doesn't matter, he's off to a new game.

It was the first time I really got a sense of the madness inside NPD, how my ex can be making such a mess of his life and be completely immersed in the process... .and while pretending he is sad about it. It is like a series of mirrors. You can't get to the person behind them.

So completely, utterly sad.

Very interesting insight from your counselor. And from you. I'll juggle it around in my mind for a bit see if I can use it in my situation.

The advice from the others to you is valuable though; he should be depressed about loosing someone important, even if it doesn't help him make profound changes, and he is an adult and does have access to everything else any other adult does. And the fact you no longer are in a relationship doesn't mean on a human level you wouldn't give a rat's *ss. If this woman would have told you this about someone you didn't know you would have thought "poor man, tough life". That is a human reaction. Doesn't mean you're not entitled to protect your heart from him or stay far far away from him and his games.

[HurtinNW]

I'm confused about some of your replies... .

It would make sense to be depressed after losing a relationship. However, he doesn't take accountability or recognize the role his dysfunction played, so how can be be depressed about something he won't admit? If we were to recycle (NOT going to happen) he would be back to furious and blaming within a week. So I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that this is natural or genuine.

I know he is falling apart and has been for years, with or without me. When we were together he still didn't look for work, still engaged in the deflection, minimizing and blame that is ruining his life. So this free-fall would seem to be about me but in many ways I suspect it isn't. I don't know. It's confusing.

Also I don't see how becoming non-functioning is normal either. I've been distraught and in pain about the loss of the relationship, but I can still function (um, mostly... .). I am working hard and trying to learn from the experience.

I guess I don't see how his reaction is possibly healthy or positive. It seems like a further descent into the self-destruction of his life. If he was in real pain, or real acknowledgement, it would have some aspect of taking responsibility, wouldn't it?

[Notwendy]

It would make sense to be depressed after losing a relationship. However, he doesn't take accountability or recognize the role his dysfunction played, so how can be be depressed about something he won't admit?


Hurtin, it may help to remember that this not looking inward, not taking accountability is a common behavior of people who tend to project and blame others for their bad feelings. Believing that other people are doing something to them negates them being accountable. The payoff of victim role is not having responsibility for what happened to them and for having no choice. There are unfortunate example of a victim- a child or elderly person who can not defend themselves from abuse is a victim. Your ex may be facing misfortune but he has not been helpless. 

Unemployment can be a misfortune but people can still make efforts to be employed. A grown man who is capable of making an effort and does not, is not a victim, but taking on this perspective is a way to avoid looking too closely at his own contribution.

People who have this way of thinking can do this at any time- good times or bad times. Ironically, if they see you as being able to make them feel good, they can see you as being able to make them feel bad. Surely your ex is feeling badly right now. That is expected for anyone. However, expecting him to consider his part in this may be like asking him to think in a different way.

Yet his feeling badly is not your responsibility. It is his. If you were to step in to help him manage his feelings it would be rescuing.

[WoundedBibi]

I'm confused about some of your replies... .

It would make sense to be depressed after losing a relationship. However, he doesn't take accountability or recognize the role his dysfunction played, so how can be be depressed about something he won't admit? If we were to recycle (NOT going to happen) he would be back to furious and blaming within a week. So I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that this is natural or genuine.

A little boy has lost his only playmate. He thinks she has run out the door. In actual fact he pushed her out the window and she is lying 3 floors down with 2 broken legs. He doesn't remember and realise that. All he knows is he has no one to play with and he feels depressed because of it.

You don't have to admit to something to be able to feel depressed. I was very depressed as a child. The reasons why had nothing to do with me so there was nothing for me to admit to. I just felt there was no one that heard me or understood. No one listen or cared. I might as well not have been there. That was depressing.

I know he is falling apart and has been for years, with or without me. When we were together he still didn't look for work, still engaged in the deflection, minimizing and blame that is ruining his life. So this free-fall would seem to be about me but in many ways I suspect it isn't. I don't know. It's confusing.

The falling apart was always there. As my ex was always in trouble before knowing me but me walking out made things worse for a while. Made him drink even more, made him fight authority more, made him react more depressed, made him see more conspiracies that weren't there. This probably contributed to him losing another job. Which he then blamed me for. Another convenient conspiracy.

So the relationship ending probably made your ex react worse than before. At least for now.

Also I don't see how becoming non-functioning is normal either. I've been distraught and in pain about the loss of the relationship, but I can still function (um, mostly... .). I am working hard and trying to learn from the experience.

When you are severely depressed you can no longer function. Non-functioning is normal in severe depression.

I guess I don't see how his reaction is possibly healthy or positive. It seems like a further descent into the self-destruction of his life. If he was in real pain, or real acknowledgement, it would have some aspect of taking responsibility, wouldn't it?

A severe depression is real pain, believe me. Not taking responsibility for this situation does not mean his depression is not real. My ex is very often very depressed, and does not take any responsibility for anything that goes wrong in his life. It doesn't make his depression any less real or deep. It makes him blaming the world for the mess he is in unfair. But depression is not blaming others. Depression is feeling everything is black and will always be black and there is no point to living because there will never ever be any joy for you. BPD and depression often go together but they are not the same thing.

[HurtinNW]

Oh, I'm not planning on rescuing him!

I just don't see how this could end up being constructive. It's like of like swimming deeper in order to avoid drowning. He's going deeper into the morass that has held him down for so long.

I think my own hurt and anger is keeping me from feeling too much compassion for him right now. It all just feels... .fake. It feels self-aggrandizing on his part, and to me that feels like public grandstanding. I realize that is me passing judgement, and I shouldn't do that. It just reeks of insincerity. But that is based on me watching him do this for four years. I've seen him turn on a dime, one minute acting woe is me, the next partying with his friends. I think it depends on what will give him narcissistic supply.

At the same time I worry about him. He's clearly making a big mess of his life, and that is really sad. There has to be some part of him that is aware of the crisis he has created for himself. My therapist suggested he is in narcissistic collapse, which is the flip side of narcissistic rage, which both happen when the supply is denied.

I guess part of me is angry that, once again, he makes everything all about himself, when he was the one who was abusive to me, and broke up with so many times.

[HurtinNW]

I'm confused about some of your replies... .

It would make sense to be depressed after losing a relationship. However, he doesn't take accountability or recognize the role his dysfunction played, so how can be be depressed about something he won't admit? If we were to recycle (NOT going to happen) he would be back to furious and blaming within a week. So I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that this is natural or genuine.

A little boy has lost his only playmate. He thinks she has run out the door. In actual fact he pushed her out the window and she is lying 3 floors down with 2 broken legs. He doesn't remember and realise that. All he knows is he has no one to play with and he feels depressed because of it.

You don't have to admit to something to be able to feel depressed. I was very depressed as a child. The reasons why had nothing to do with me so there was nothing for me to admit to. I just felt there was no one that heard me or understood. No one listen or cared. I might as well not have been there. That was depressing.

I know he is falling apart and has been for years, with or without me. When we were together he still didn't look for work, still engaged in the deflection, minimizing and blame that is ruining his life. So this free-fall would seem to be about me but in many ways I suspect it isn't. I don't know. It's confusing.

The falling apart was always there. As my ex was always in trouble before knowing me but me walking out made things worse for a while. Made him drink even more, made him fight authority more, made him react more depressed, made him see more conspiracies that weren't there. This probably contributed to him losing another job. Which he then blamed me for. Another convenient conspiracy.

So the relationship ending probably made your ex react worse than before. At least for now.

Also I don't see how becoming non-functioning is normal either. I've been distraught and in pain about the loss of the relationship, but I can still function (um, mostly... .). I am working hard and trying to learn from the experience.

When you are severely depressed you can no longer function. Non-functioning is normal in severe depression.

I guess I don't see how his reaction is possibly healthy or positive. It seems like a further descent into the self-destruction of his life. If he was in real pain, or real acknowledgement, it would have some aspect of taking responsibility, wouldn't it?

A severe depression is real pain, believe me. Not taking responsibility for this situation does not mean his depression is not real. My ex is very often very depressed, and does not take any responsibility for anything that goes wrong in his life. It doesn't make his depression any less real or deep. It makes him blaming the world for the mess he is in unfair. But depression is not blaming others. Depression is feeling everything is black and will always be black and there is no point to living because there will never ever be any joy for you. BPD and depression often go together but they are not the same thing.

WoundedBibi, those are very good points, thank you. I tend to react to sorrow with anxiety and movement, so depression is hard for me to understand. There are also some FOO issues here. My brother had clinical depression and committed suicide. It was really painful to feel so helpless in the face of his pain.

My brother's depression was not at all public, he tried to hide it. I could always see it in his eyes. He made his world very small, and eventually committed suicide. So depression frightens me.

I know my ex thinks he has depression. That's been the dx he received in the past. Personally I suspect it is something else, or a combination of depression and NPD/BPD.

Whatever it is, I feel worried and guilty and helpless and angry hearing about it, because it feels like he created the situation, and now I am being made to feel responsible. I know no one is making me responsible, that is inside me, but it feels that way. Just owning it.

[WoundedBibi]

Oh, I'm not planning on rescuing him!

I just don't see how this could end up being constructive. It's like of like swimming deeper in order to avoid drowning. He's going deeper into the morass that has held him down for so long.

I think my own hurt and anger is keeping me from feeling too much compassion for him right now. It all just feels... .fake. It feels self-aggrandizing on his part, and to me that feels like public grandstanding. I realize that is me passing judgement, and I shouldn't do that. It just reeks of insincerity. But that is based on me watching him do this for four years. I've seen him turn on a dime, one minute acting woe is me, the next partying with his friends. I think it depends on what will give him narcissistic supply.

At the same time I worry about him. He's clearly making a big mess of his life, and that is really sad. There has to be some part of him that is aware of the crisis he has created for himself. My therapist suggested he is in narcissistic collapse, which is the flip side of narcissistic rage, which both happen when the supply is denied.

I guess part of me is angry that, once again, he makes everything all about himself, when he was the one who was abusive to me, and broke up with so many times.

I honestly think he doesn't realise the crisis he has created for himself. The very miniscule part of him that might is instantly strangled when it pops up; it's too painful to acknowledge.

I understand both your worry and your anger. I was worried very recently and am angry (and afraid) right now. My ex was in a narcisstic rage after I walked away and even more so when I went NC. He became vengeful and used his flying monkeys to make my life difficult. He enjoyed hurting me. I temporarily exited the scene. He got fired through his own actions (probably another girl) and went into a narcissist collapse as he lost a lot if not all supply. I recently saw pictures of him during the collapse and instantly I worried about him. He looked like crap. For the first time in months I felt any urge to reach out. I talked myself out of it as it would lead to pain and misery. Somehow he got himself out of the collapse and now I'm back to angry for what he did, for landing a job he doesn't deserve (totally contradictory with the worrying me) and afraid because I still expect him to either lash out more or reach out or both. His life is all about him, it will always be all about him. The compassion I had I still have to a degree but right now the anger prevails.

Most likely the life of your ex will not go towards anything constructive. It appears the life of my ex is. But I know him. I know it only appears to be that way. I'm giving it a year and a half before he gets fired again. Over authority issues, a girl, or both. So basically they are both in the morass. It's called BPD. It looks like they are never getting out of it. And there is nothing we can do about it. For now we're hovering around in a boat called anger. At some point we'll paddle away in a boat called resignation.

[WoundedBibi]

I'm confused about some of your replies... .

It would make sense to be depressed after losing a relationship. However, he doesn't take accountability or recognize the role his dysfunction played, so how can be be depressed about something he won't admit? If we were to recycle (NOT going to happen) he would be back to furious and blaming within a week. So I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that this is natural or genuine.

A little boy has lost his only playmate. He thinks she has run out the door. In actual fact he pushed her out the window and she is lying 3 floors down with 2 broken legs. He doesn't remember and realise that. All he knows is he has no one to play with and he feels depressed because of it.

You don't have to admit to something to be able to feel depressed. I was very depressed as a child. The reasons why had nothing to do with me so there was nothing for me to admit to. I just felt there was no one that heard me or understood. No one listen or cared. I might as well not have been there. That was depressing.

I know he is falling apart and has been for years, with or without me. When we were together he still didn't look for work, still engaged in the deflection, minimizing and blame that is ruining his life. So this free-fall would seem to be about me but in many ways I suspect it isn't. I don't know. It's confusing.

The falling apart was always there. As my ex was always in trouble before knowing me but me walking out made things worse for a while. Made him drink even more, made him fight authority more, made him react more depressed, made him see more conspiracies that weren't there. This probably contributed to him losing another job. Which he then blamed me for. Another convenient conspiracy.

So the relationship ending probably made your ex react worse than before. At least for now.

Also I don't see how becoming non-functioning is normal either. I've been distraught and in pain about the loss of the relationship, but I can still function (um, mostly... .). I am working hard and trying to learn from the experience.

When you are severely depressed you can no longer function. Non-functioning is normal in severe depression.

I guess I don't see how his reaction is possibly healthy or positive. It seems like a further descent into the self-destruction of his life. If he was in real pain, or real acknowledgement, it would have some aspect of taking responsibility, wouldn't it?

A severe depression is real pain, believe me. Not taking responsibility for this situation does not mean his depression is not real. My ex is very often very depressed, and does not take any responsibility for anything that goes wrong in his life. It doesn't make his depression any less real or deep. It makes him blaming the world for the mess he is in unfair. But depression is not blaming others. Depression is feeling everything is black and will always be black and there is no point to living because there will never ever be any joy for you. BPD and depression often go together but they are not the same thing.

WoundedBibi, those are very good points, thank you. I tend to react to sorrow with anxiety and movement, so depression is hard for me to understand. There are also some FOO issues here. My brother had clinical depression and committed suicide. It was really painful to feel so helpless in the face of his pain.

My brother's depression was not at all public, he tried to hide it. I could always see it in his eyes. He made his world very small, and eventually committed suicide. So depression frightens me.

I know my ex thinks he has depression. That's been the dx he received in the past. Personally I suspect it is something else, or a combination of depression and NPD/BPD.

Whatever it is, I feel worried and guilty and helpless and angry hearing about it, because it feels like he created the situation, and now I am being made to feel responsible. I know no one is making me responsible, that is inside me, but it feels that way. Just owning it.

That must hurt. I'm sorry 

I think perhaps losing your brother, which was beyond your control, makes you feel responsible for your ex. Trying to control it this time. Getting a different outcome. Making him feel better where you couldn't with your brother.

[Lifewriter16]

My 2 cents on this (and it's only 2 cents worth): I think that even pwBPD know somewhere deep inside that they've messed up even as they deny it to others and to themselves on another level. I don't think denial is lack of knowledge, I think it's unwillingness to face what we know because it hurts too much.

Lifewriter x