Looks Like Divorce, Part II Interesting Turn of Events

[Verbena]

I texted my husband this morning a reminder that we both had haircuts tonight.  No response.  A little while later I called him.  No response.  No call back. 

I don't call or text my husband very often during the day while he is working, but I can't remember a time when he has not responded at all--until yesterday and today.  (Yesterday I informed him of my new bank account via text and asked to talk about bills.  The whole thread is under "Looks Like Divorce"

When he got home today, I asked him if he received my text today and my text yesterday.  He said yes and walked away.  I could tell from the tone of his voice, he was mad.  I let it go. 

About an hour later, he walked in the room where I was,  sat down, and blurted out, "Why did you open your own account?"  His demeanor was VERY tense, slightly angry, and I could almost see the walls around him.  He wouldn't look at me. 

I told him I opened the account because I needed to do it for me.    No response. Then I asked him if we could talk soon about our bills and which ones I would pay from my new account.  No response. 

After a few minutes passed, I calmy asked him if he could see any change for the future regarding our marriage.  I would say a full minute went by.  He finally said, "No, I suppose not." 

That's when I said, "Then we need to face reality."

I then talked to him about possibly having the house evaluated by a realtor so we would have that information.  He immediately said that the house would need a lot of work.  I agreed but told him a realtor could tell us better what needed to be done.  We talked a little about the real estate market here currently.  I did most of the talking.  He said very little but he listened.  No arguing.  The tenseness, anger, and walls remained around him, however.  He looked away from me during the entire conversation.   

Finally the conversation sort of fizzled out.  He got up and went outside.  He came back in the house a short time later and as Formflier says, "Poof!"  He was entirely different.  He seemed relaxed, not angry, and immense relief was written all over his face. 

He sat down at the computer to look at the weather radar and then asked me about the maid service our daughter is sending over this week to our house.  I keep their 17-month old here daily, and she and her husband occasionally hire someone to help me around the house to show their appreciation. 

I went into the kitchen, fixed my husband a hamburger, and we sat at the bar and watched a Fixer Upper re-run.  Normal small talk.  No more mention of our previous conversation. 

Thoughts?

[Turkish]

Verbena,

I read through part 1. This stuck out:

I don't plan to even say the word divorce.  He has ignored my mentoning divorce several times now anyway, so what's the point.  I have taken this step because I think it was the right thing to do considering what I see for our future.

It sounds like you are going to be "alone" in this process. As my T said, however, "divorce is by definition adverserial."

Even of you can guide this to a point (being the non-BPD, and knowing him so well after 3 decades together), it will become more adverserial at some point.

He hasn't listened. Do you think that he is still in denial? It sounds like it to me.

[Verbena]

Turkish, I may have said I didn't plan to use the word divorce, but I did use it at least once when we talked tonight.  

This is my take on why he seemed like a burden had been lifted from his shoulders:  If we divorce, then he will never again be asked to go to counseling, never again have to tell me he doesn't remember the events in our marriage that I believe brought us to this point, never again have to deny that his behavior affected me for years.  He's off the hook forever now.  

[Notwendy]

Some men have grown up in FOO's where the only emotion a "man" expresses is anger. I didn't know my FIL that well, but he seemed to be like such a guy. He either didn't talk or he got mad. The family seemed to WOE around him and this is how my H learned to be a "man".  Talking about any issues between us seemed to be foreign to my H- when the only two ways to respond to being upset were either silence or anger. Sadly, I think there are many men raised in such homes who then don't know how to discuss issues with their spouses.

My impression of your H's response is that he is indeed upset. With the only two relationship tools he knows he has- that being silence or anger- he responds by doing what he knows to do. Learning new ways to relate isn't likely to come spontaneously from someone who has pretty much used the two tools that seem to have worked for him, but they may or may not come when he realizes that they don't work. Kind of like- if he has been using a hammer the whole time, and sees a screw, the first thing he would do is hammer at it until he realizes that maybe he needs to do something else.

My part in this is that these two responses were ways my parents punished me. I was terrified of my parent's anger and mom used the silent treatment. These two responses were triggering to me. I had to learn not to react to them by being upset/co-dependent/WOE.

How things proceed with your H is anyone's guess. He may be relieved and passively let this happen, or he may get very angry in which case you may need an escape plan. Or he may do nothing and let it happen just to maintain his position of "being right" or being in control through silence. Stonewalling is a means of control. Or he may come to the realization that his relationship is falling apart and show some investment in it.

While you are not looking to him for your direction, this is a moment where he also has a choice. Does he want to be married or not? If he does, then he needs to make it known in some way. But first, know that he only has two tools- silence and anger. He's going to use what he knows and possibly keep on using it until he realizes it isn't working for him.

Perhaps your task now is to not react to his reaction and not to make more of what it is. This is how he shows his emotions. He could be feeling a lot of different things. One thing I always did as a co-dependent was try to fix the feelings or react to them. While being sure you have a safety plan for any excessive anger, perhaps letting him be with his emotions and giving him time to think is a place to start- while continuing to follow the plan for you that you choose.

[Verbena]

Yes notwendy, anger and silence are what he knows.  From what I know of his parents, he learned that early on.  

Turkish, I may very well be alone in this process.  I've felt alone in this marriage for so long already. 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Verbena, These conversations are always hard, yet I think you handled it well.  I can't predict what your H will do next, but in many cases a pwBPD will often begin a barrage of F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt), in order to manipulate the Non.  Doesn't seem like that's happened to you yet, and maybe it won't happen, but I suggest you be prepared for it.  Forewarned is forearmed!  LuckyJim

[formflier]

After a few minutes passed, I calmy asked him if he could see any change for the future regarding our marriage.  I would say a full minute went by.  He finally said, "No, I suppose not." 

Do you have any idea what kinds of things he was considering for that minute?  You know him, what do you think he was thinking.  (I get it there is some guesswork here)

I think it is awesome that you confirmed with him that he got your text and had a relatively direct conversation about this. 

Can you give us context of how the "divorce" word was used in this conversation?

What is your plan if he does not give you any guidance with respect to how to split up bills?  Do you have enough visibility of the bills and finances to figure out a percentage that you were contributing before.

You will need to balance your value of being fair, with avoiding nagging or pestering him.

How do you feel about things?

FF

[flourdust]

The impression I have is that your husband has an avoidant style of coping with unpleasantness. Thinking about or dealing with divorce or marital conflict is unpleasant, so he avoids it by not responding to messages or to talking. He tries to distract himself instead.

The message about opening a separate account was unpleasant and he tried for quite a while to ignore it and pretend it wasn't happening. When it began to bother him enough that his usual distraction strategies weren't working, he confronted you. He then participated ... .to a point ... .in the conversation about issues surrounding your marital problems. It was unpleasant, but it also served as a bit of a relief valve for him.

He knows that the issues aren't resolved and more unpleasantness is on the horizon, but -- he let you talk to him! So the pressure of that looming confrontation is gone, and he can push off the day of reckoning some more and go back to procrastinating on facing reality. That's why he was so relaxed and friendly after the talk.

[Grey Kitty]

Geez... .dunno what to say other than keep walking away (emotionally, financially, and ultimately physically).

I'm guessing that this inability to consider changes or talk about anything is deeply unsatisfying to you, Verbena.

I'm not getting much reason to hope he will find anything else to offer you.

Anger and silence aren't his only tools. Numbness and denial are there for him too. Sigh.

One reason I asked you about how you felt about giving up the house was that I wasn't sure about getting him to move out--That is something he either has to do willingly by his own choice, which might drag out for a loong time, or when forced to by courts/law enforcement (which sounds unlikely).

If you choose to move out, he can't stop you or even slow you down much.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm pulling for you.  I feel sad reading this. I know your H must be in a lot of pain, or confusion, or denial.  I was once the one who took it all (the hurt, anger, and loss) and kept it in.  I was the one being railed on and emotionally abused, so the situation is a little different.  But, I identify with the reaction of stunned (or agonizing) silence.  In my case, I knew I had to stay utterly quiet so as to not do something bad in reaction.  I would have a feeling of overwhelming relief if my wife approached me with the proposition of divorce.  Nevertheless, I would feel the impending loss and hurt of separation. 

I might sympathize and suggest giving him some time to process, but, not let go of the topic altogether.  Giving him too much time will just play into denial, and leave him the "winner" in his mind.  But, some time to process may be in order.  Meanwhile take steady slow steps and build your independence.

This is hard work we do.

[Verbena]

Thank you all for your input.

Lucky Jim, I'm not too concerned that he can lay the FOG on me as I know I have dealt with this for far too long.  I'll keep this in mind, though. 

Sam... ., yes it is very sad.  He is a very slow processor, so that's why I didn't pursue any more conversation last night once he walked back inside and seemed so relieved.  I agree that letting it go too long, though, will feed the denial. 

Yes, Grey Kitty.  The fact that he won't talk and won't deal with anything is deeply unsatisfying to me.  I also agree that he is numb and in thick denial.  I admit that I am numb as well.  I distanced myself from him because of his behavior and lost all normal feeling for him in the process.

As far as the house goes, I am not prepared to just leave it right now.  For one thing, I would need the money from it to buy something else.  I'm starting to think he might be the one to leave.  Just a feeling I got last night.  We'll see. 

Flourdust, he most definitely has an avoidant coping style.  I have to admit that in many ways, I have  done the same thing.  I knew MANY years ago that he was very troubled, that our marriage was not good and I avoided dealing with him because it was just so frustrating.  I ALLOWED a lot to happen (or not happen) in this marriage for a lot of years. 

Formflier, this is what I believe he was thinking during that minute before he told me that he didn't see our marriage improving. 

"If I say yes, that I see it changing, she will ask me again to go to counseling.  I'm not doing that.  If I say yes, she will want to talk about our issues.  I'm not doing that either.  If I say no, she will drop it and I won't have to ever again deal with her talking to me about our marriage."

I could be wrong, but that's what I believe went through his mind. 

Context of the word divorce as it was used last night:  After he told me he did not see the situation ever improving, I said we should be realistic about our future.  I mentioned having the house evaluated by a realtor IF we stayed "on this current path."  I mentioned that divorce lawyers get rich while couples argue and won't come to an agreement. I said that IF we got divorced, we would be better off coming up with our own plan instead of getting lawyers too heavily involved.   

[Verbena]

Tonight I told my husband that I have a realtor lined up to take a look at the house and give us some information.  He muttered what I'm pretty sure was "Alright" and  that was it. 

I really anticipated that he was going to dig in his heels, refuse to discuss anything, refuse to leave, refuse to sell the house.  I'm so glad that didn't happen. 

[Turkish]

Tonight I told my husband that I have a realtor lined up to take a look at the house and give us some information.  He muttered what I'm pretty sure was "Alright" and  that was it. 

I really anticipated that he was going to dig in his heels, refuse to discuss anything, refuse to leave, refuse to sell the house.  I'm so glad that didn't happen. 

We were only together 6 years, but my Ex s 11 years my junior. Our r/s was very much Parent-Child. Without shaming her, I was able to use that to my advantage to work out a fair custody agreement. I think that she just didn't want to deal with it. She seemed terrified, almost, of ending up in court. I used this to my advantage, in conjunction with the validation tools here when needed.  Do you feel like a parent? If so, do you think that you can use this to your advantage? Not to punish him, but to do what you need to do.

[formflier]

Would you want to stay in the house if he leaves? 

Is house a good place to care for your grandchild?

Would you rather pick a place for "just you" that has never been his?

You need to go see a mortgage person?  Check to see what you can afford based on just your income.

With low rates you may want to preserve some capital for other things rather than  buying another place free and clear.

FF

[Verbena]

Would you want to stay in the house if he leaves? 

Is house a good place to care for your grandchild?

Would you rather pick a place for "just you" that has never been his?

You need to go see a mortgage person?  Check to see what you can afford based on just your income.

With low rates you may want to preserve some capital for other things rather than  buying another place free and clear.

FF

The house is paid for and yes it is a wonderful place for our grandson.  He has his own room here that I designed and decorated for him before he was born.  We have a big yard that our grandson loves.   It's a beautiful home and it's paid for.  It would be much simpler if I could stay here.  However, I would have to pay my husband for half the home if I stayed.  That would mean me taking out a loan, paying my husband, and then paying the loan back. 


Part of me would like to just start over somewhere else with my half of the proceeds from the house, but I'm almost certain that I cannot find anything comparable to what I have now that I could afford on my own. It's going to come down to the numbers and what makes the most sense AND how just how much less of a house I'm okay with.  This house and yard here are a LOT of work.  I do about 98 percent of the yardwork and virtually 100 percent of the housework.  I also keep my grandson here for at least a few hours every day and do my design work which has dramatically increased lately. I'm also in the process of starting a decorating blog.  I have a lot on my plate to say the least. 

I need to talk to my realtor (also a friend), a mortgage person, and a lawyer.  We have needed to trade my car in for some time, but my husband would not discuss it with me.  This morning I called him and told him I was going to talk to my brother about trading it (brother is in car business and very knowledge) and H did not object. 

Also, in the last 24 hours I have talked to my younger sister, my mother, and my brother about my situation.  None of them had any idea the way I have lived all these years; all were shocked to different degrees. All are supportive of me. I feel a huge sense of relief at being able to be honest with them.    My older sister knows everything and has for a very long time. 

[Grey Kitty]

It is worth examining if it would be feasible for you to buy him out of his half of the house and take a mortgage out for it... .and if you want to do that.

Depending on how that works, he might have to help a bit in some way, perhaps letting you live there and partially or fully pay off his share when you sell the house?

... .or you could sell out to him, he could take a mortgage... .

... .or sell the house and you each end up with your share of the proceeds... .

Which of these are possible depends on your income, his income, how big the loan would be, what the value of the house is, and if there is any spousal support... .

[Grey Kitty]

You know... .if you can make your current car limp along for another ~six months while you examine your housing options, I'd recommend it for you.

If your car isn't reliable enough for you now, it is time to do something about it.

Your ability to get a mortgage depends on your income compared to total debt. Adding a car loan now will reduce your options for getting a loan either for ~half of this house or for another home.

BTW, have you posted on the legal board here yet? If not, I highly recommend it. The senior folks there will give you very good and very pragmatic guidance on what your options look like.

[Verbena]

Grey Kitty, these are all options to explore.  I am hoping a lawyer and my realtor can give me some direction.  As far as the car goes, I really need to trade it in very soon.  

My credit score is 864.  I should have no trouble getting any loans that I need.  I just have to really examine what I am comfortable paying.  

Lots to think about and feeling very overwhelmed right now.  Still praying for direction.  

Yes, I do need to post on the legal board. 

[Grey Kitty]

My credit score is 864.  I should have no trouble getting any loans that I need.  I just have to really examine what I am comfortable paying.  

Your credit score is excellent. That means you should be able to get loans and get competitive interest rates (which will reduce the payment a good bit)

Your debt payment/income ratio is the other limit. That is the one which will limit you. And you may be comfortable paying either more or less than the bank is willing to let you have there. [It has been 10~20 years since I looked into mortgages, but the maximum I recall back then was a 40% debt/income ratio. So if you make $3000/month (before taxes) the bank wouldn't let you have a payment bigger than $1200/month.

I've got no idea what your income from decoration + your retirement income is. The debt ratio permitted may be different today. (Your realtor will probably have some idea, or if not can find a mortgage broker who can guide you.)

Anyhow... .I still recommend you work through some examples and possibilities both with and without including a new car payment before you take that on.

[formflier]

hey, what is going on with your car that makes you want to trade it off?  Is there still a loan on it?  Have you put much into repairs?

I'm comfortable with your thinking/process of stay or go in your marriage.  You seem to be dealing with that in a good way.

I have no idea how financially savvy you are, ability to sort through mechanical issues on a car, etc etc.  Many times when a man has run finances for a while or cared for things for a while, that can feel overwhelming to take over.

Bottom line:  If payments are on the horizon, much better off to WAIT on the car and get housing sorted out than to do it the other way around.

It's not just you.  You want a place that is good for your grand-baby as well.

Oh, and nice work on the credit score.   

My guess is that you have financial savvy with that credit score.  But, I don't want to assume things when it is critical.

FF

[Verbena]

No, I am definitely not financially savvy.  We just don't have a ton of debt.  Both his truck and my car are paid for.  Our house was paid for in 2008.  A home improvement loan that we took out in 2005 is very, very close to being paid off. 

My car is twelve years old, has high miles, and is just now starting to give us a little trouble.  It's in the shop at the moment but isn't going to cost a lot to sort out.  My brother knows the car business inside out and can get $3000 for my car now--that's it.  I would be buying something used.  I trust him to help me get the best deal. 

I see all of this mess taking quite a while to sort out.  Our son is coming in a few months from overseas with his gf and we will not sell the house or make any major changes until after that. 

[Notwendy]

It sounds like you have a lovely home ( I don't have your designer talent) and have created a comfortable place for your H to live. I can not imagine what he is thinking.

I think my FIL was a wounded soul. His FOO life was terrible. He was not a bad person, and he didn't have BPD- which surely could complicate matters. Yet, his conversations seemed to not be deeper than what he did in the garden or the nightly news. If he showed any emotions , it would have been anger. It is tragic that some men are raised to not show emotions, and then, they become role models for their sons.


It isn't your place to fix your H, he is who he is and he is capable of making choices, even if they are not good choices, such as staying silent while his marriage dissolves.

It is a tragedy to see someone you care about not stand up for his marriage, but I suspect any hope in your part for him to do this is gone. Although you are doing this for you, he always has a choice. If he is in shock or denial, then he still has the choice to say something, otherwise, he too is complying with this.

[formflier]

No, I am definitely not financially savvy.  We just don't have a ton of debt.  Both his truck and my car are paid for. 

Do you drive a lot? 

How much savings do you have? 

Some of these questions may be better handled in a separate thread.

It is good that you have someone that you trust to help you.  Cars is one of those things that people are predisposed, one way or another.  I like to do my own work and tend to keep things for a long time.  For instance, currently sinking about a grand into a 99 suburban to get some air conditioning lines repaired.  Over the years, many of the other major things have already been done and we hope to keep it for years to come.  Last year they put diesels in suburbans.

It sounds like your desire for a newer car is smart, especially if you have avoided major expense so far. 

FF

[Verbena]

Do you drive a lot?  

How much savings do you have?  

Not a ton.

Not a ton.  

I know little about cars.  You put gas in them and they go.  They've never been my thing, and it's never bothered me that I don't drive really nice new ones.  But houses... .now that's a different story.  Making a house look beautiful and homey and reflect the personality of the people who live in it IS my thing.  

notwendy, I've put so much work into my home over all these years, not to mention money that I know now I'll never get back.  I'm beginning to detach myself from it, though.  

I spoke by phone with my friend the realtor today.  We concluded that buying out my husband's share in the house didn't make financial sense.  I will spend much less getting something smaller (and hopfully not too awful) and then fixing it up if I can.  

So I will miss this house terribly but it's just a house.  Any house I live in will just be temporary anyway compared to my heavenly home. Gotta keep reminding myself of that!  

Here's something I won't miss: I do some of my best thinking when I mow the yard which is what I did after the grandbaby left today.  It occured to me while I was mowing that I've done this now for twenty-three years and this could be my last spring here.   I was trying to finish up with the weed eating before it got dark but couldn't find the string for the trimmer.  I came inside and asked my husband if he knew where it was.  Normal tone.  Just asking a normal question.  His response was one I would expect if I had stormed into the house and accused him of hiding the string from me.  But hey, at least he didn't ignore me!  

It struck me as I headed out to the shop to look for the string again just how USED TO this kind of response I have become.  It didn't even phase me.  

Abnormal has been my normal for way too long. Maybe I'll have a t-shirt made with that sentiment on it and another one that says, "This is all just so unnecessary."   

[formflier]

 

Wow,

I would think a normal response would be,

"Hey, let me come help you find it.  Thank you for doing the weed eating"

Wow,

Hang in there.

Oh yeah, please call a random realtor.  Get an opinion.  Good you have a friend.  But I would get three opinions of price.  If at least two are consistent, you are good.

Please don't "hang up" the idea of buying him out until after talking to a lawyer. 

What if he gave you house instead of providing spousal support.  What if, what if.

Decision making:  Right now you need to gather data, lots of it.  Please hold off on forming opinions or making decisions. 

FF

[Verbena]

Thank you for doing the weed eating? Let me come help you find it?  ?

I can't even imagine him saying that.

You're right that I just need to focus on gathering information right now.  I have at least one other realtor in mind that I'm going to talk to as well.  I'm also looking into lawyers. 

[Grey Kitty]

Given how withdrawn he is, this may not even be relevant... .but I'm going to say it anyhow.

As you are now working out the plan and shape of a single life for yourself, you no longer owe your husband any information about what you are planning to do or considering.  Your thoughts are yours.

Yes, there are still things you need to tell him, and yes there are things that you would do better to tell him directly than let him figure out later. (Like your individual bank account and moving your direct deposit into it, which you did.) ... .especially if you want to be fair to him. (Whether he earned that is debatable... .and how you would feel about yourself if you didn't treat him fairly is more important.)

Most important is that the possibilities and plans you are considering are NOT his business. Until you commit yourself to act on them.

[Grey Kitty]

I spoke by phone with my friend the realtor today.  We concluded that buying out my husband's share in the house didn't make financial sense.  I will spend much less getting something smaller (and hopfully not too awful) and then fixing it up if I can.  

I see this as half-correct. This part is right--Once you end up with your share of all the joint assets... .whatever you end up with... .it will go farther on a smaller house than on the one you are living in now, so you would need a bigger loan and bigger payment to stay where you are.

But what you can afford and want remains to be seen. Given the length of your marriage, things like retirement funds or pensions are probably considered joint assets / community property (if you live in a community property state). You also might get some kind of spousal support, especially if his income is much bigger than yours.

In this regard, either you, or your husband may be in for some unpleasant surprises.

So do the math and work things out before you give up hope--it sounds like you really would prefer to stay in this house, just not at too high a financial cost to yourself.

[Verbena]

Grey Kitty, I agree that sharing some of my ideas as I move forward are not his business now.  I have said nothing to him about buying out his half of the house or anything about his 401K, etc.  A lawyer can tell me what I need to ask for, what is fair, etc. 

[formflier]

In this regard, either you, or your husband may be in for some unpleasant surprises.

You will find these, more than you can imagine. 

What I was talking about for decision making means that whenever you find one of these, you remember, it's just data.

Don't freak, you don't seem like the "freaking" kind, so perhaps don't ruminate on it is better.

Once you have assembled all the data (or all that you can reasonably collect) then start working the equations and problems.

It's find to have a "gut instinct" if you can truly hold that "loosely" so that if the data leads you in another direction you won't be rigid about your original belief.

There is a big one that I don't think I have asked or head you say. 

Emotionally, do you think you will be ok in the house (home) after he is gone.  I'm assuming this is where you raised kids.

You will never know what it is like to be there with him really gone, until you try it.  But I think you will have a good idea.

If you have a desire to have a "fresh slate" when you start out, then it is likely that a different smaller place that you can decorate for YOU is the best way to go.

There is a lot to think about.

Hang in there.

FF