Boundaries and Sex

[toomanyeggshells]

How do I put up boundaries with my live-in uBPDbf when it comes to sex?  Trying not to be TMI here, but he wants sex every day.  When I found this out right after we began living together 6-1/2 years ago, I kind of shrugged it off.  He was never adamant about sex every day for the 2 years we dated before that. I know that BPD's change when they get you where they want you, and I know his "sex every day" has more to do with his insecurity and jealousy than it does with actual sex.

When he doesn't get what he wants sexually (and otherwise), he rages.  Sometimes, I just let him rage and leave the room.  Other times, I find myself doing it just to shut him up, which makes me sick to my stomach, disgusted with myself and very resentful of him.  We've had a few discussions about the subject, but of course he doesn't get it.  When I say "not tonight" he accuses me of being controlling. Of course, he doesn't see his "I want sex every day or else" as his controlling the issue.  I get that. He can't see it.  His brain doesn't work that way. He wants what he wants when he wants it and that's just the way it is.  

So what's the best way to deal with this?  Explain nicely that I'm not in the mood, I'm tired, or whatever, and move on? I've just been dealing with it for some many years and its worn me down.

I've started re-reading the book How to Stop Being a Caretaker and its great, but so far that hasn't given me any insight into this specific issue.  

Anyone with any experience dealing with this?  I'd love any feedback I can get.  

[Notwendy]

I didn't have the every day issue, but I think a variation of it. I think sex is an important part of marriage, but what this felt like was that, if my H got the idea that we would have sex, then it would happen, but he would forget that the other part of it was me. The schedule in his mind could vary, but whatever that was- it had a sort of OCD quality to it- such as- if she loved me she would want to do it X times a week and any change in that X meant rejection. Whether I wanted to or not was only in reference to him. If I didn't want it, he would rage. There were times when the reason was not him at all. I had morning sickness (all day long) when I was pregnant, I could be literally puking and he would think I was rejecting him.

Then there was what sort of sex. I don't want to be graphic here, but he would, on his own. decide he wasn't getting enough of one thing or another. It was about the time I was pregnant and not feeling well that he decided his sex life with me was over- probably because I said no at some point. We had had an active sex life all along, and I assumed that he could see with his own two eyes that this was temporary. I didn't know about "black and white" thinking. ( I don't think he has full BPD but some traits, and this is one of them) but as far as he was concerned, his sex life was over. He painted me black at that time.

How did I handle it? I think I can tell you what not to do. Having been raised by a BPD mom I was very co-dependent. Since he blamed me for his sexual unhappiness, I believed him. I then decided to do it on schedule.- just in hopes of making him happy. Then I did it to shut him up as the rages were scaring the kids. I was a young mother with small children and I really was just trying to hold the family together. Basically, I felt like a prostitute.

Eventually we got MC and worked on this with a counselor. It was a long recovery emotionally for me.

I was not a one night stand girl- no criticism of those who are. I was a romantic- one man, one love and only wanted sex in the context of love. Doing what I did took any enjoyment out of it for me. In fact, it was hard to feel any emotions because I had been used to just doing it without feeling anything. It was like having one night stands with someone I didn't know because I tuned it out.  The counselor has explained to my H that for him to get what he wants- which is for me to want him, I have to be able to say either yes or no. She has really encouraged me to only say yes if I mean it, and say no when I don't - even if he rages, because it is up to him to learn to control that. If I have sex out of fear of the rages, then I teach him that this is how to have sex. It's not.

Stick to your truth, get counseling if you need to, for yourself if your bf won't go and even by yourself if he does.

[Cat Familiar]

This issue of differing expectations was really damaging to me in my first marriage. As I see it now, the problem for me began when I started seeing the ugly BPD behavior manifest. Because he had initially put me on a pedestal and had done a lot of nice things to win me over, it was really surprising when he started behaving abusively. My feelings of love and attraction rapidly diminished after that and of course I wasn't as interested in sex with him.

Later it really became a sore topic and because of that, my interest and attraction further withered. At one point, unbeknownst to me, he was marking the calendar when I would have sex with him. Then he would accuse me of not having done it as much as he needed, so like you and Notwendy, I would "submit" and feel angry and resentful. This led to less and less desire for him. Not a great way to have a marriage.

I think the years of dealing with this issue have damaged me in ways that hinder my sexual expression in my current marriage. At first, I was an enthusiastic partner. Then when my current husband started showing signs of BPD and abusing alcohol, I got really turned off to him. Currently we don't have a sexual relationship, although at this point, I'd be open to it again. It took a lot of time for me to wrap my head around the concept that he wasn't deliberately being an a*hole with some of his BPD behavior. However he has always been a kind and good person, unlike my first husband. But for me, there was a lot of collateral damage in all the years I spent with my first BPD husband.

[HurtinNW]

The situation with my ex was pretty much the opposite: during the idealization phase he mirrored back to me my own love of eroticism and the joy and beauty and power of love-making. I've always had a strong sex drive and was over the moon to have found a partner who also believed in what we called "depraved monogamy."

Eh, not so fast. As soon as the honeymoon was over he completely switched to saying he never thought sex was a big deal and didn't believe intimacy was important in a relationship. Sex became a battleground where I was made to feel something was wrong with me for wanting it.

As a woman that was especially hard to feel I was doing all the initiating and he was suddenly playing the reluctant partner... .and yet denying that was what he was doing. If I tried to talk about it he would rage and accuse me of basically being a slut.

I later felt he was doing that precisely because he knew it was a very tender spot. He would talk about how beautiful I was when we were out in public, act as if I was sexually attractive, and then once we were alone he would berate me for my sexual history (ouch) and rage, saying all I wanted was to get f-worded. I was completely, utterly devastated, time and again. From his perspective I care about sex too much and I was the one making the bed a battleground. It was totally crazy making.

Eventually I figured out that it didn't matter what I wanted: he was going to want the opposite. He was going to find a way to be displeased so he could rage. If I had gone into the relationship not wanting sex as much he would have found fault with that. As a matter of fact he complained about his last ex for being frigid. It was like Goldilocks, he was never going to be satisfied, and nothing was ever going to be just right.

I'm just now dealing with the way his behavior damaged my self-esteem and made me question my sexuality... .a sexuality I fought hard to make healthy after childhood sexual abuse. The relationship caused much deeper damage than I had realized, especially to my sense of self-worth and confidence.

I suspect the bottom line is in a relationship with a BPD/NPD they are going to interpret anything you do, say or want as an affront to them, either an abandonment or an attack. So you'll need to have good boundaries to protect yourself.

In this case perhaps the boundary is you don't have sex you don't want. Be prepared to follow through, such as leaving the house when he rages. Personally I think forcing people to have sex is abusive, and definitely a boundary to maintain.

[Notwendy]

Ironically, it was I who kept the calendar. At the time, I was a mother of infant/small children, and doing 100% of the child care/domestic work. If a child was sick or up at night, it was me taking care of things. I was sleep deprived and tired, so basically, my goal at night was to get some sleep. I still was attracted to my H and would have had more interest in sex if given the space to do so. Two days might go by and he'd be yelling "we NEVER have sex". This didn't seem right to me but if I JADEd, it would be worse, so I kept a calendar because honestly, when I heard this, I thought I might be going crazy as I thought we had sex, then heard we did not.

With counseling, I have had some recovery of my feelings, and we have a better sexual relationship now, but there is now a side of sex that I hoped to not experience- just doing it for the sake of keeping peace. This isn't about "taking one for the team" in an otherwise mutual relationship. It's like feeling used repeatedly for years.

To be honest, I wondered why he stayed with me at the time if he didn't feel fulfilled. I was not afraid of abandonment, but afraid for the kids. I wanted stability for them. I don't know why he stayed with me though. I told him I would rather someone not stay married to me than to feel their sex life was over.

Ironically, demanding sex can be due to their wanting to feel loved and wanted, but this kind of situation results in neither of the partners getting what they want- to be loved and desired. At the time I didn't know what else to do,  but I would not do it now. We are still married and working on this in counseling, but I understand where Cat is coming from as I don't know if I could be as vulnerable with anyone as I was when I was first married.

[Notwendy]

Hurtin, that had to feel bad. My H also had times of rejecting me, because he was angry. He went through a period of time when he refused to kiss me. Later, when he wanted to, if he kissed me, I would cry, because of the hurt feelings. I think it is abusive. Fortunately my H was willing to work on this- not right away but I think after a while he realized his marriage was quite damaged and he didn't want that. My side of this was that I had been working extensively on co-dependency and had changed my part in these behaviors.

I think though people have to make the best decision for themselves at the time and all situations are different. In my case we have children and a long term commitment. I don't know if we would have made the decision to work on things had we been not been married and were dating.

[HurtinNW]

Notwendy, I agree! There isn't a right or wrong way to decide whether to continue or not. There are so many factors. I do think in my case one reason I kept recycling was to avoid dealing with the damage his behavior did to me. I didn't want to be alone with this pain, and now I am. But I am working hard on dealing with it, learning from it.

My ex would say he wanted to change, and I think he did, but it went right out the window when it came to actually truly changing. As my therapist says, It's hard for a person to change when they don't really believe they've done anything wrong.

For my side of the street, I got way too enmeshed, unhinged and triggered by his sexual rejections. I let him hurt me and didn't have boundaries around it. My reactions were definitely what one would term co-dependent. I put way too much stock in his rejection, and became reactive myself. A healthier person would have probably said, "hey jack, that's messed up, I'm taking a break from this." Ironically, given that sort of space, his behaviors may have been different. I think he felt very pressured from me, even when I wasn't trying to pressure him. That lead to more lashing out.

That said, I think if it wasn't that issue it was something else. There was a lot of something else, too, from how I loaded the dishwasher to my opinions to chores to how my daughter talked to the cat. It really did feel like a never-ending fault-finding session.

[Circle]

I'm not reading the whole thread (yet). I've only read the original post.

If this is a sexually vital male, why would his wanting sex every day, not be based on the actual sex? You are implying that there is some other motive. However, males often do have high energy drives.

I'm sure someone has already mentioned this; it seems like a boundary issue to me. Setting the boundary and maintaining it. Perhaps with a compromise.

[Notwendy]

Circle,

I think I can give you a response from my perspective. I don't think anyone has an issue with a man with a high sex drive. Wanting sex is fine- for anyone. Yet it takes two to have sex, and so the connection/behavior between the two people comes into consideration in a long term commitment.

We are responsible for our own needs. If we are hungry- then we need to take responsibility for getting food. If someone wants sex, then it is still that person's responsibility to make that happen with an agreeable partner. In disordered relationships- where enmeshment, poor communication, co-dependency exists, taking care of our own needs and responsibilities gets disordered as well- and this affects many needs- affection and sex included. Since the human brain is involved in sex as well, the emotional disorders affect that.

It's OK to want what you want, but as adults, we need to learn not to rage and have tantrums when we don't get what we want. If a man has a good sex life in general, and his partner isn't up to the task for some reason- like morning sickness, raging over that, giving her the silent treatment, is going to affect their relationship. Likewise, when a partner is co-dependent, like I was, and has sex out of fear of the rages, not desire, it is going to have a negative affect as well. As I mentioned before, this isn't about a partner taking one for the team in an otherwise good relationship. The motivation is fear, and although the partner gets sex, it is in a bed of miscommunication.

[HopefulDad]

Incompatible views on sex lives (e.g. frequency, desire, style, etc.) is a struggle for healthy couples.  Throw a PD into the mix and it becomes a nightmare.

Try to decouple the PD from the incompatibility and decide first how you want to handle the incompatibility.  Hold firm?  Find compromise?  Up to you.  You should feel comfortable with whatever changes you are willing to make regarding your sex life, putting the PD completely aside.

Once you've decided what changes you're willing to make (if any), then figure out how to work with your pwBPD on this.

[Notwendy]

I agree. No two people are going to agree on everything. Sex is one of those topics that can be difficult for many couples. Others might be money, religion, child rearing. PD affects communication in relationships. I have noticed that couples who are emotionally healthy have been able to work out even major differences. With PD's it seems even the slightest difference can be tough to work out.

[toomanyeggshells]

but there is now a side of sex that I hoped to not experience- just doing it for the sake of keeping peace. This isn't about "taking one for the team" in an otherwise mutual relationship. It's like feeling used repeatedly for years.

That's exactly how I feel - completely used.  I've said to ubdbf that I'm not some prostitute waiting on the corner and when you snap your fingers, I come running. He doesn't get it.  He feels that if I love him (which I'm certainly not so sure of at this point), that I should want to have sex all the time, no matter what, just drop what I'm doing when he's ready.

As far as "taking one for the team", I have no problem having sex when if I'm like - eh, I can take it or leave it.  I'm talking about flat out don't want any part of it and then I do it just to shut him up. 

Ironically, demanding sex can be due to their wanting to feel loved and wanted, but this kind of situation results in neither of the partners getting what they want- to be loved and desired.

I completely agree and that's what I said in my original post. And I've always thought that he doesn't feel loved if I'm not ready for sex whenever he is.  He definitely takes no as a rejection of himself completely, not just that I don't want to participate at that point.

I've brought up counseling plenty of times in the past, but he refuses.  I know I have to do it on my own for my own sanity.  Its just a money thing at the moment, but I hope to get started.  I know it will help me immensely. 

My ex would say he wanted to change, and I think he did, but it went right out the window when it came to actually truly changing. As my therapist says, It's hard for a person to change when they don't really believe they've done anything wrong.

Well that's for sure!  He doesn't think he's done anything wrong no matter what the situation. He can't understand that his verbally abusive language and rages are a turn off and that alone makes me not want to have sex with him. And when he does realize he went too far, then he wants to have sex to make up    Its a no win situation for me. 

It was like having one night stands with someone I didn't know because I tuned it out.  If I have sex out of fear of the rages, then I teach him that this is how to have sex. It's not.

I think you're reading my mind Notwendy! That's how I feel, like he's a stranger and I'm going through the motions and counting the minutes until the end.  When its going on, I can't even think about it.  I use that time to think about what I'll have for lunch the next day, what I'll wear to work, upcoming plans with family, etc., anything but what's happening at that moment. 

[Grey Kitty]

One partner wanting sex more often than the other partner is a tough problem, and a common one. Or wanting different sex than the other wants.

NOTE: That two people have different desire levels for sex is a relationship problem... .NOT a problem with either partner, or either level of desire. Blaming either partner for having higher desire or lower desire isn't the proper answer.

One other thing which may be happening to  you, TME, is something that can happen to all non's, although more often with women: When you don't feel loved, appreciated, and safe in your relationship, your desire for sex just about vanishes. And if his response to you not being interested in sex is raging, that only makes it worse.

When he doesn't get what he wants sexually (and otherwise), he rages.

THIS ^^^^^ is the real problem. The raging to get what he wants. And that it "works" for him all too often--you let him get his way out of fear of the rages.

Enforcing boundaries to protect yourself from the rages will make a huge difference in your marriage.

Addressing this

[toomanyeggshells]

One other thing which may be happening to  you, TME, is something that can happen to all non's, although more often with women: When you don't feel loved, appreciated, and safe in your relationship, your desire for sex just about vanishes. And if his response to you not being interested in sex is raging, that only makes it worse.

When he doesn't get what he wants sexually (and otherwise), he rages.

THIS ^^^^^ is the real problem. The raging to get what he wants. And that it "works" for him all too often--you let him get his way out of fear of the rages.

Enforcing boundaries to protect yourself from the rages will make a huge difference in your marriage.

That's exactly it.  I can't stand his behavior (regarding sex and pretty much everything else) so that makes me want nothing to do with him, which makes him rage because I don't want to have sex with him, and around and around it goes.

My thought on enforcing my boundary for not having sex when I really don't want to is to say something to him in a nice tone ("how about tomorrow" or something similar) and then go do something else.  If he rages, so be it. 

[formflier]

  and I know his "sex every day" has more to do with his insecurity and jealousy than it does with actual sex.

TME,

While this is likely to be true, I would challenge you to think about how this belief manifested itself in your behavior or emotions in ways that your BF picked up on.  Not saying it was your fault, but, it is possible that he thought you were the hottest thing around and really liked having sex with you.  Not wanting sex a lot, but wanting sex a lot with YOU.

One partner wanting sex more often than the other partner is a tough problem, and a common one. Or wanting different sex than the other wants.

https://youtu.be/Ep2MAx95m20

I've posted this before.  I think it's a great talk.  If I remember correctly, I also think it illustrates that the partner that desires sex the LEAST is really in control of the sexual relationship. 

We've seen from this thread that it isn't a male or female thing. 

Partner that wants more is generally frustrated by partner that wants less.  Emotions go haywire on both sides.

I'm generally the sexual partner that wants more.  To my wife's credit, and my delight, BPDish stuff has generally stayed away from the bedroom.  Plus, we had 15 good years before the icky stuff showed up.

Sure, there have been incidents here and there, but nothing chronic like a lot of the stories on this board.

I also was treated to periods of time where the hunter became the hunted.  Generally when she was ovulating, and then later in pregnancy hormones would go haywire again, and in both cases, I couldn't do it enough. 

Many times would end up hiding,

Well that did help me have empathy.  I don't think I have ever "raged" about not getting it. 

Anyway, I would encourage every partner with lower desire to take as many for the team as they can.  Usually you will remember "I like sex" (I think that is in the video too)

But also for us "horn dogs", we've got to realize there will be times when we are told no.  Even more important, seriously, even more important there are times we are told yes and we need to realize they are taking one for the team, and cuddle them instead.  Perhaps give a massage and then go so sleep without the sex part.

Funny story of how this turned out ok, actually great for me.  About a week ago I had been "thinking" about my wife for several hours before she got home.  Worked myself up so bad that my plan was to ask her when she got home if "her boobs could come out and play" (I realize this is only slightly better than my lightsaber noises during the attempted, you know, plot on my wife's life).

Anyway, these things really seem like a good idea at the time,

She obviously doesn't feel when when she shows up.  So I don't get to use my wonderful line.  I get her some medicine and a drink and start massaging her neck.  She had some stiff back muscles, so, I worked those out.

Anyway, I had put sex out of my mind, seriously,   Ended up massaging her for about 45 minutes. 

Apparently she must have got to feeling better because out of nowhere, while working on massaging her feet.  She exclaims, "I really want to have sex with you!"



Dude,

Yeah, I obliged,

FF

[formflier]

My thought on enforcing my boundary for not having sex when I really don't want to is to say something to him in a nice tone ("how about tomorrow" or something similar) and then go do something else.  If he rages, so be it. 

Boy, I do understand we all need sexual boundaries.

But, in this situation you are the non, you will have to take emotional leadership on this. 

Get rid of the nice tone though.  Be firm but sexy, "I can't right now, I can only imagine how worked up I will be tomorrow when I will have time to have sex with you.  In fact, likely I'm going to have to have some (fill in blank of something you don't do often), smack him on the butt, wink and go on about whatever you have to do.

Please be sure to deliver on your "appointment". 

This will take a while to unwind.

Focus on what "to do" and a little bit on "what not to do".  Focusing on rage will keep bringing up shame. 

When rage happens, take your ears elsewhere.  Let him sort out his rage.  You sort out his sexual satisfaction.  Right now those two issues are mixed up.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

There is a consent issue here. If YOU do not want to have sex, sex doesn't happen. "Not giving consent" doesn't require a good reason. It doesn't require ANY reason. It doesn't matter if you gave consent yesterday or last week.

I love this video comparing sex with tea, if you haven't seen it before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

I'm very hard-line about consent. Don't let fear of rage or threats or anything else coerce you.

I'm not going to suggest that you play that video for him... .but I do wish that more people understood it that way. (And by people, the ones who don't get it are just about all male.)

That's exactly it.  I can't stand his behavior (regarding sex and pretty much everything else) so that makes me want nothing to do with him, which makes him rage because I don't want to have sex with him, and around and around it goes.

My thought on enforcing my boundary for not having sex when I really don't want to is to say something to him in a nice tone ("how about tomorrow" or something similar) and then go do something else.  If he rages, so be it. 

Enforcing a boundary is never "nice" and trying to make it "nice" doesn't work. Be firm. I would recommend strongly against saying something about another time with a "maybe" or a vague timeframe like "later". Mentioning a specific date (i.e. tomorrow) is probably a bad idea unless you are very sure it will be different for you then.


One other thought for you... .it isn't uncommon for women to need more time to relax and get into a mood for sex than men do. (Like FF's example of giving his wife a massage for 45 minutes without any expectation that it would result in sex... .but she was interested after when she wasn't at the start.)

In the name of problem solving, I'm going to ask some questions about sex with him... .if this is too personal, no need to answer.

Does the way he asks / initiates sex not work for you? Would some more foreplay or alternative sex activities (i.e. ones that are more likely to get you off!) improve your interest? Are you able to ask him to do what you want during sex?

[Notwendy]

The marital sex issues were actually the last of our issues to go haywire. I think GK got it when he said that the partner does not feel loved, then the sex desire diminishes, the partner wanting sex feels rejected and then rages. This makes the other person feel less loved and it becomes a spiral.

I thought things were fine between us in the bedroom, but out of the blue, my H  painted me black and then rejected me, in the bedroom and other wise. There were rages, silent treatment, all of this confusing because, I didn't know why he did it.

During this time, we had the children, and surely my drive diminished, as I had a lot of nausea. That led to him feeling rejected- but at the time, I had no idea because he didn't tell me. He just raged or gave me the silent treatment and complained about not getting sex. It was then, out of desperation, I decided to just do it. Hoping he would be nicer, but sex out of fear of rages and in the absence of being treated lovingly was, for me, a horrible experience. He had no awareness of how I was feeling.

Sex in marriage to me is more than having an available place to stick it into- which at the time, was just about that. He wasn't having sex with "me" because he had no idea what I was feeling emotionally. To me, sex is about mind, and body, and soul, and he had no awareness of how heartbroken I was that my H did not love me. The kids were little, I was scared, and didn't want to break up my family at that time. I did what I thought I needed to do to keep things together, but I can tell you that while once sex was enjoyable to me, this went on long enough to take any fulfillment out of it for me.

It has taken much work to make things better, on both our parts. And we are fortunate to have a skilled MC who can communicate with both of us, and let him know that the kind of sex he wants with me - is worth working on and not raging over. I also don't fear the rages, and they have gotten less and less since I don't reinforce them. But even feeling any desire or fulfillment in sex is something I still need to work on. I am motivated to do so because I think it is an important part of marriage. Yet having this experience would make me think twice about entering another sexual relationship if I were single. I don't think I can have that kind of trust and hope again in another person.

[formflier]

Sex in marriage to me is more than having an available place to stick it into- which at the time, was just about that. He wasn't having sex with "me" because he had no idea what I was feeling emotionally. To me, sex is about mind, and body, and soul, and he had no awareness of how heartbroken I was that my H did not love me. 

Notwendy, thanks for sharing this and allowing us to discuss this personal and intimate part of your experience with BPD and sex.

This strikes me as as area where there are typically BIG differences in the way males and females approach sex. 

There are times when for me, and I think for many men they are just interested in "where do I stick it".  Sure, there are times when there are lots of emotions involved for me and it's "making love" but honestly, my mental process is usually more like, "wow, my wife is hot, if I had boobs, I'd play with them all the time, party on, ohh that feels great, Wow" and at the end I feel more like high 5ing my wife, rather than cuddling.

Anyway, I totally get that for most women, to include my wife, sex, making love, whatever involves nothing about what I just described.  She entertains, tolerates and cares about my desires because I have made it obvious that I care about her experience.

Practice makes perfect, (the high desire guy would say that, ) but for us (me) that means that a lot of the time I focus on getting her off first because, well, she is much more amenable to whatever I'm interested in afterwords.

So, I'm wondering if TME gave some direction of things that he could do to help excite her or "get her off" before she "took one for the team" if that would make things better.

How does he respond to getting direction like that? 

This is sort of a rehash of the questions that GK asked, but those are really important questions and answers.  Especially if you can turn a time when you were "so so" about sex into something more positive.

I'm 100% behind GKs stance on consent.  My wife has said no, I've said no, it's part of life.  It's also part of life that the nons will have to sort through a healthy way to deal with rages if they choose to be in a r/s with a BPDish person.  Hopefully a way can be figured out to minimize that.

So, I'm not at all against boundaries or ownership of our own bodies.  But, to the max extent possible, keep the messages positive, especially about sex when involved with a BPDish person.

Perhaps there could be a better result to stay positive and deliver a message in post sex bliss that "hey, that was great.  I'm glad we could do that and enjoyed it.  Sometimes I enjoy delaying that just as much, thanks for being understanding."

Keep sticking a positive "do this" message in there, vice "shutting him down".

Sometimes you will have to shut him down, don't be shy about that.  My hope is that positives way outweigh the negatives.

FF

[Notwendy]

Well I guess it's a good thing that men don't have boobs, as maybe you'd get nothing done if you did. I have over time been able to understand the different thought processes between men and women. Probably why there are no Disney movies about princes waiting for their princess to ride in on a white horse and carry them away. But I do believe that men are as emotionally invested in their relationships as women are, and want to be emotionally and physically connected, maybe not exactly at the moment they see boobs.

I think that what TME and I are trying to say is that if the emotional disconnect is big enough that the guy is thinking "boobs" and the woman is mentally planning the meals for the week and forming a grocery list, then things are not progressing on a good path.

However, your advice to try to make it enjoyable is similar to the advice I have heard, but also to not say yes when one means no. To actually truly choose to say yes, both yes and no need to be a choice.

[formflier]

 

Trust me, nothing would get done if,    

The catch-22 and a big part of the "tension" in relationships around sex, IMO, is that men and women get to the emotional investment place in much different ways.

Much, much more likely that I am "emotionally invested" after a sexual experience than before.  Likely opposite for women.  They want emotional investment, then sexual experience.

I also think that many men are much simpler than men.  I mean, for me, and most guys if there is good food, good sex and a good nights sleep, you are 99% of the way "there".  The rest is gravy.

I'll leave it to women to try to describe what gets them "there",

FF

[HurtinNW]

I'm trying to remember which Ted talk I saw where the sex expert said "Foreplay is what you do the other 23 hours a day."

For most women, good sex isn't just what happens when we are making love. It the sense of respect, affection, desire that happens the rest of the time. Like FF thinking about his wife before she comes home, and getting all worked up. FF is able to do that despite his wife acting like a turkey, but as he says, he also has years of positive memory to go on, and I imagine that their sexual and intimate connection is probably one reason the relationship keeps ticking.

My opinion is trying to fix this by making the sex more enjoyable is backwards, because it's hard to have awesome sex with someone who is treating you like doo-doo. Sex isn't just about skill and technique. It's about being able to feel comfortable enough to be wild, fun, to want to please and be pleased, to feel that delicious, irrepressible joy. For some men like FF that might manifest in wanting to high-five afterwards (FF, please tell me you don't actually do that!) and for some of us a warm cuddle and closeness.

In my case I kept wanting to have sex with my ex even when he was being abusive. It was my way of trying to connect, and enjoy us. Sad to say, I also knew that during lovemaking he wouldn't get mad at me. But after time it stopped working. I just couldn't relax. All the joy started going out of it. It didn't feel the same. I stopped wanting sex as much, for the first time in my life. For a high-natured woman that was really disquieting. I was in a 15 year relationship before where we made love pretty much daily. That I stopped feeling that desire for my ex was a sign to me the relationship was ending.

While trying to improve a sex life is always a good idea, I don't think the answer here is for the poster to enjoy sex more so she doesn't have to turn down her husband, thus avoiding his rages. I think that puts the responsibility on her, which is part of the FOG. No one wants to swing from the chandeliers after they been strung in an emotional lynching.

The focus in this situation, imo, is her creating boundaries so she isn't being bullied into sex. Perhaps MC or another resource would help her husband realize that he can't expect her to have desire for a person who treats her poorly.

[flourdust]

Sex in my marriage started dying around four years ago. At first, it was due to her recovery from her brain injury. She had tremendous pain and vertigo and other symptoms that just got in the way. By the time those started to subside, she was on a sharp decline into full-blown BPD behaviors. The almost constant raging, criticism, verbal abuse, and victimization killed any desire I had to be with her. Maybe I'm atypical for a guy, but I really didn't want to approach my wife for sex after she'd been yelling at me, calling me names, and demanding apologies for imaginary slights. I think we had sex maybe 2-3 times/year for the last few years.

One thing that's a little unusual, in hindsight. Sex was usually a morning activity, not a night time one. I wonder if that's because waking up was calm and emotionally neutral compared to evenings which were laden with tension and emotional problems. Has anyone else had that experience with a pwBPD?

Toomanyeggshells -- Sorry if this is too personal, but I'm wondering what these denial-of-sex rages are like. It's hard for me to imagine someone standing at the foot of the bed yelling "YOU BETTER HAVE SEX WITH ME! HOW DARE YOU NOT HAVE SEX NOW, YOU BITCH?" But nothing about BPD surprises me any more.

[Notwendy]

HurtinNW makes an important point. The sexual issues began after a long period of being painted black and mistreated/rages/ST. It took an emotional toll on me. I also didn't know what was going on at the time, didn't even know about my mother's diagnosis of BPD at the time- just about her behaviors. I was very co-dependent both on my parents and in my marriage. It baffled me because my H and my mother are very different- she is low functioning. My H is thankfully competent, well liked at work, and by casual friends. These behaviors were isolated to me.

Since I was used to being blamed/held responsible for my mother's behaviors and expected to do something about her feelings, I took on this role in my marriage without question. My mother would also rage/ST and so those two things worked very well to get me to comply- which of course reinforced them.

So being painted black, I started trying anything I could to fix my marriage. If I asked my H what was wrong or bothering him, this set off a list of "nevers"- we NEVER have sex, I never cook for him, I never do this or that. It was crazy making as he was rarely home during the times the kids were active and I was cooking, working odd hours - who/what did he think kept the house, took care of the kids, fixed meals when he was not there? But his raging just set me to try harder- fix his favorite foods, more sex. After trying with no improvement I began to give up and also, was worn out from making efforts with no sign of improvement.

But this was also a learning experience as I read volumes of books on relationships. I suggested some to him, but he didn't read them. It was through these books that I made the connection that we bring our issues from our FOO into marriage. When I became aware of mom's BPD, it gave me some direction for counseling- to address the issues in myself- which eventually led to me dealing with co-dependency and getting better boundaries.

When I think back on the times I was not up to sex, it was not usually about not being in the mood- but from being sleep deprived as a mom of small kids. Also, these times were not the norm- we had an active sex life, but it could take one time to feel like "never" to him. My expectation was that he could plainly see the reason, yet, unbeknownst to me, he would take it as rejection. This was a huge realization to me that so many things that I could say or do were being misinterpreted by him as rejections and criticism. Sometimes it would seem to me that he would get angry out of the blue for no reason, but looking back, it is because he somehow thought I was criticizing him or attacking him and I had no awareness of that.

So to answer flourdust's question about how the raging over sex happens, it isn't that direct. My H is not direct with his wants or needs. He is indirect and so expects me to pick up on what he wants. This is an issue with sex as I am not always that sure. He also does that with me- thinks he knows what I am thinking.

Sometimes I would miss his indirect signals. Now, at the time, we had small children- and I took on virtually all of the childcare. Parents of young kids know that sometimes at night you are so tired that if you lie down you fall asleep. So there were instances where he might be wanting sex, but I would have no idea.  I would fall asleep reading them a story in their bed, or come to bed and fall immediately asleep from exhaustion. This had nothing to do with my H- I couldn't help it. My H would take this as rejection. There were times I was woken up out of a deep sleep to raging " you never X, Y, Z" or wake up the next day to the ST. If I asked him what was wrong, he wouldn't tell me, and if I pushed it, he would then rage and be critical about something else. Many of the things he said were not true, he didn't even mean them, but at the moment, he was hurting and set out to hurt back. I would take these things to heart, then later if he complimented me on the same thing, I didn't know what to believe.

One thing that drove me crazy was this. He didn't help with the kids much. He was very traditional about roles. So he would come home from work, tired and wanting to unwind. That was fine. I did appreciate that he worked and was tired. So I would fix dinner, do dishes, get the kids ready for bed, baths, homework when they were older, read the bedtime stories. After dinner, he would read for a while, then, at some point get into bed waiting for me. So, he's relaxed now, in the bed, waiting, thinking of you know what while I am wrestling a toddler into pajamas. At some point, if I didn't fall asleep accidentally putting the kids to bed, I would go into the bedroom and be expected to be as ready as he was. As much as I tried to tell him that if he would just help a little, and the two of us could unwind together, I would be much more available emotionally and physically, but he just felt rejected that I wasn't hot and heavy immediately and if I asked for help when he was in that state, it would lead to a rage or some argument about how hard he works and it isn't fair for him to do more.

So, to answer Flourdusts questions about the rages. No, he didn't say "you better have sex with me" . That would be too direct and to the point. Besides, he knows better because he knows that a nice guy wouldn't do this. On the drama triangle, the context was not from persecutor position, but "victim" with me as the bad wife who NEVER did this or that. They tended to also kitchen sink- not having sex went from NEVER cooking, or doing nice things for him or that he isn't appreciated. At the time, I would JADE and things would take off from there to an all night circular argument. I realized the quickest way to get sleep at night was to have sex and say nothing.

The changes for the better began when I learned not to JADE and to not be co-dependent. The large rages, ST, circular arguments are more a thing of the past now, because even if they happen, they don't work and so don't escalate. My wise MC pointed out that I was enabling these behaviors. She also explained the differences between men and women about sex- to both of us- for better understanding, but still, didn't discount the emotional component.

[Notwendy]

One take home message from my posts (in hopes of helping TME and others) is this: I had no idea how much things I did or said without any intent of criticism of rejection of my H were interpreted as that. The raging/ST did not come from a place of "give me sex" but out of a despair of feeling rejected. These interactions set up a spiral of both of us feeling hurt and rejected.

One thing I learned is that many women feel connected by talking, while men feel connected through sex. So I thought I could solve the problems by talking about my feelings. That was like throwing gasoline on a fire.

The lessons on this board- stop the conflict- stop JADEing, stop reacting to being triggered do help. Someone has to stop the dysfunctional interactions. There isn't a lot of room for feeling desire when feeling conflicted. And, since talking was not working, I didn't want to lose the only other connection we had, which was sex. I don't think that is fair to either party, so being able to participate in it knowing it was at least one way to still feel connected and understand how my H felt rejected helped change my attitude. But there was still work to do on the emotional side of the relationship but first we had to diminish the conflict.

[formflier]

One thing I learned is that many women feel connected by talking, while men feel connected through sex.  

Huge point!  I will add that many men, me included are much more likely to want to talk about feelings AFTER sex than before.  I realize that many women may eye roll at that, and I do understand how "convenient".  it is for me to be that way.  Also that many men, me included, will have great intentions of talking and cuddling, post sex, only to fall into a sex coma/sleep after.

There are/were times that I really couldn't help it.  It's gotten much better as I've got older.  My best description now is that when I was younger, sex was something that "happened to me" rather than I did.  My ability to think and control myself was way less than it is now, in my 40s.  So in my 20s, there was a flurry of activity I would eventually climax and then lay there with a stupid grin on my face, not really sure what happened, but after a nap, I would really like that to happen again.  

My wife would want me to do this or that to her, pay attention to certain parts and i would have the greatest intentions of doing so until things got going, then my brain was pretty much saying "Wow"!  Promises went out the window.

A benefit of getting older is that I'm now a full on participant, can usually control myself (meaning I can go for a couple minute quickie or (like last night,   )  go for 30 minutes or so before attempting to climax.  

Not sure what age TME is, or her boyfriend, but with time, aging and communication things can get way better.

 Someone has to stop the dysfunctional interactions.  

And this person is not the man or the woman.  Please don't take any of my comments as "it's the womans job to (fill in the blank)"   In the case of the post, the "non" (TME) happens to be a woman.  Same with Notwendy's story.

As the non, we end up being the emotional leader and since there is a lot of emotion wrapped up in sex, we have to lead in that area.  

My hope is that TME can find a way to lead in this area that maximizes "building bridges and connections" and minimizes rejection.  

FF

[formflier]

 

Oh yeah,

In a previous post I actually typed that men are much simpler than men,

really meant simpler that women.  Perhaps a bit more straightforward would have been a better way to say it.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

The almost constant raging, criticism, verbal abuse, and victimization killed any desire I had to be with her.

Thanks, flourdust, for saying this. It makes sense that nasty behavior kills the desire for sex for men as well as for women. I've often thought there was something wrong with me because I can so easily lose the attraction to a partner and thus have no sexual interest in them.

When I was single and dating I was very interested in sex, but once someone started behaving badly, that really killed my desire and I was ready to move on. Unfortunately I committed myself and endured some really ugly behavior in my first marriage. And in the second marriage, it took years for the full-blown BPD behavior to emerge--and it's never been extreme, not like the first husband.

In my more honest moments, I realize that if my current husband wasn't wealthy that I likely might think of ending my marriage. It's not that I'm so materialistic, but rather that I spent most of my adult life in poverty, wondering how I'd make ends meet. Now I have more financial security than I'd ever dreamed of. So it's a trade-off. I miss having someone I'd consider "the love of my life" which is what I thought this husband was when we married. I really don't know if such a creature even exists. For the most part, he is a kind man, but those of us here know how empty a relationship can be with a pwBPD. It's all about them and they know, or care, so little about our emotional well being.

[toomanyeggshells]

In the name of problem solving, I'm going to ask some questions about sex with him... .if this is too personal, no need to answer.

Does the way he asks / initiates sex not work for you? Would some more foreplay or alternative sex activities (i.e. ones that are more likely to get you off!) improve your interest? Are you able to ask him to do what you want during sex?

I usually don't say much to him because I feel like he'll take anything I say as criticism.  I guess I have to figure out how to communicate things on my mind in a helpful way. 

Perhaps there could be a better result to stay positive and deliver a message in post sex bliss that "hey... .that was great.  I'm glad we could do that and enjoyed it.  Sometimes I enjoy delaying that just as much... .thanks for being understanding."

Keep sticking a positive "do this" message in there... .vice "shutting him down".

That's a great suggestion. I do think that a little post-sex positive message would be very helpful to him and, in turn, to me.

I'm trying to remember which Ted talk I saw where the sex expert said "Foreplay is what you do the other 23 hours a day."

My opinion is trying to fix this by making the sex more enjoyable is backwards, because it's hard to have awesome sex with someone who is treating you like doo-doo. Sex isn't just about skill and technique. It's about being able to feel comfortable enough to be wild, fun, to want to please and be pleased, to feel that delicious, irrepressible joy. For some men like FF that might manifest in wanting to high-five afterwards (FF, please tell me you don't actually do that!) and for some of us a warm cuddle and closeness.

While trying to improve a sex life is always a good idea, I don't think the answer here is for the poster to enjoy sex more so she doesn't have to turn down her husband, thus avoiding his rages. I think that puts the responsibility on her, which is part of the FOG. No one wants to swing from the chandeliers after they been strung in an emotional lynching.

The focus in this situation, imo, is her creating boundaries so she isn't being bullied into sex. Perhaps MC or another resource would help her husband realize that he can't expect her to have desire for a person who treats her poorly.

This is all so true.  Its pretty impossible for me to put the thoughts of his bad behavior out of my mind and enjoy the sex, especially because I know that no matter how good the sex might be, he will continue to rage about other issues.

Also, I don't fear his rages, rather, every time he does that, it makes me want to be with him less and less. I've told him that but of course he can't understand it.  Counseling would be great but he refuses to go.

Toomanyeggshells -- Sorry if this is too personal, but I'm wondering what these denial-of-sex rages are like. It's hard for me to imagine someone standing at the foot of the bed yelling "YOU BETTER HAVE SEX WITH ME! HOW DARE YOU NOT HAVE SEX NOW, YOU BITCH?" But nothing about BPD surprises me any more.  

His rages for pretty much everything are the same ... .name calling, threats, saying nasty things about my kids and family, accusing me of cheating. The sort of thing that makes me NOT want to have sex with him 

[toomanyeggshells]

Not sure what age TME is... or her boyfriend... .but with time, aging and communication things can get way better.

Well, we're surely not kids .  He's 57 and I'm 55 so the only thing that can help is communication.  Time and aging are out the window 

My hope is that TME can find a way to lead in this area that maximizes "building bridges and connections" and minimizes rejection.  

Right, minimizing rejection is the key. That's why I don't give him "suggestions" during sex.  He already feels awful about himself in general and I think he would take it the wrong way. I am going to try to figure out how to be more positive as far as sex goes and maybe, just maybe, it might flow over into other parts of the r/s.  I'm not crazy enough to think that he'll change his behavior but a girl can dream.