some help please--way sick and stupid.

[doubleAries]

My ex and I have been divorced for almost 3 years now, but he has continued to work for me (wholesale business) up until several days ago when I finally mustered the gumption to fire him. In the 3 years that we have been divorced, we have gone back and forth from "strictly business" to furtive sexual encounters (not a particularly rapid cycle--perhaps 3 separate sexual encounters in that time). The last sexual encounter being in February. Our sexual relationship was always humiliating and lousy--so why dive back into that? And each post-divorce encounter has been even worse than within the marriage itself. He has introduced even creepier aspects to the already nauseating dynamic. For example: within a half hour after having maybe the best sex we ever had (which isn't saying all that much) he was online, looking at a dating website, looking for a new partner. I couldn't really identify the strong emotions this evoked in me, so I dismissed them. I tried a little bit to verbalize something about it, without making my humiliation too vulnerable, and his reply was "what do you mean? we're divorced now." and he went back to scrolling. I tried mentally to accept this answer as logical and truthful, even though emotionally I was outraged.

Would that be enough send a healthy person running? Who said I was healthy? So I had sex with him again the next day (this was all during a lengthy trade show we were working, and perhaps the 7th or 8th time we had sex on this trip). Immediately following, we were going to the grocery store and dinner. We were chatting happily in the car on the way (something we never really did, so I was basking in some kind of fairy tale "wow--maybe things were better than I remembered" bubble of delusion) when his phone rang.

Back story: before the door even hit me in the butt when I left (and I had to leave MY home that I bought and paid off before I ever even met him because I couldn't ever get him to leave) he was grotesquely obsessed with his college best friends ex wife who he also went to college with--friends he introduced me to years before and we stayed at their house numerous times. He was so love sick over her it was embarrassing. She, after her own divorce, apparently became one of those people who likes to have a large circle of adoring fans around her, that she doles out miniscule crumbs to. Let's call her COLLEGE FRIEND (and I do that in caps because I usually write her name all in caps, because ex makes it out like she is a divine being).

OK, so his phone rings on the way to the store. Ex doesn't answer it, but I can tell COLLEGE FRIEND is calling by the way he freezes up. He wants to answer (he is desperate for the crumbs from her) but "can't" because I am there. He flips his phone closed and a deep uncomfortable silence permeates the rest of the car ride. When we get to the store, I sarcastically say "how about if I do the shopping so you can sit out here and talk to COLLEGE FRIEND on the phone?" and not catching the totally obvious sarcasm, he says, all chipper like, "thanks, (my name)! that's really nice of you!" and almost hurts himself getting his phone out so fast. Now I am so overwhelmed with emotions that the only one I can identify is anger, but I'm not sure if I'm "entitled" to feel that--we ARE divorced after all, and I already knew he was obsessed with COLLEGE FRIEND after all, and, and, and... .I tried to "logic" my feelings away. I stormed into the grocery store and started shopping, feeling physically numb, with this unidentified swirling mass of emotions barely held back. I could hardly focus on what food I needed for the next several days in order to work.

And then here he comes, with a look of disappointment. I said "I thought you were going to call COLLEGE FRIEND?" and he pouts out "well she didn't answer, of course. She never makes time for me." And I can see that he actually expects me to commiserate and sympathize with him. I leaned over my shopping cart and barely stopped myself from throwing up into it. I finished the shopping and then told him I didn't want to go to dinner anymore. That I felt absolutely sick and just wanted to go back to the hotel room. When we got back to the room, I told him he was incredibly insensitive and that I felt like a substitute blow up doll for his obsession with COLLEGE FRIEND--that it was clear that's who he REALLY wanted to be with and he was just using me. He began immediately to roll his eyes and play the "women are crazy and dramatic for no reason" game. Which infuriated me--I didn't know how to counter it. I didn't know how to articulate that I MATTER and don't want to be treated like this. I wanted to change HIS behavior instead of protecting myself from his behavior. Yeah--really crappy boundaries.

OK, you'd think that would be enough, right? Oh, no. Not this glutton for punishment! We slept together another couple of times. And mind you, there was no lying, soothing, or apologizing on his part. He just expected me to go along with this, and I did. And I cannot explain to myself, let alone anyone else, WHY. Lots of people engaging in over the top dysfunction don't realize they are doing it at the time. But I did. I was completely aware of it and felt powerless to stop it--which makes NO SENSE whatsoever. I have no idea why I would place myself in this swimming pool of quicksand when I saw what it was and didn't want to jump in. It's frightening, and shows me I cannot trust myself. If I can't identify my own motives, how can I change them?

So last sexual encounter of the trip, approximately an hour after sex, a fellow vendor comes by our room to see if we have a corkscrew. I'm 51, ex is 52, fellow vendor is about 30, and reasonably attractive. Ex starts leering at her, overtly and exaggeratedly looking her up and down from head to toe, making suggestive comments and "jokes". She looks back and forth between us, shocked (most of our fellow vendors and customers think we're still married--how do you announce your divorce in a business setting?) and leaves. Ex is too wrapped up in his own fantasizing to even notice he has creeped her out. I try to tell him he was inappropriate, he responds that I'm just jealous and have no reason to be because we're divorced. I buy to some degree what he's saying, and feel shut down and frustrated.

We get home from the trip. Ex finds a woman on a dating site in another country as his new obsession. I decide "THAT'S IT! No more of this crap with him--it's strictly business from now on!" He works from home, not in my shop, so I'd only see him 3 times a week for a few minutes each time when he dropped off his work and got his new assignments. I didn't talk to him at all about anything except work. That seemed to be going OK and I noticed that the only thing different between that and our entire relationship was me not talking. I did all the reaching out, and he did all the shutting down and rejecting (not subtle about it either--I can't count how many times when we were married that when I would talk to him he would snap a newspaper open in my face and start reading. I say "snap" because that's exactly what he did. It wasn't casual, it was designed to let me know he wasn't listening, didn't care what I had to say, that I was unimportant to him)

But after a while, ex starts trying to be "friendly". This is awkward for him, because it's MY job to do the reaching out. He drops off a birthday present at the workshop in front of all my other employees on my birthday (I returned it without opening it, and he acted like he didn't really care). He starts slipping in comments not work related, he tells me he's alone and needs some social interaction (which hits my guilt buttons about him--he's diagnosed bipolar 1 mixed, with psychotic features [paranoid delusions] and bipolar driven narcissistic and anti-social personality disorders, so it should be fairly obvious why he acts the way he does--but doesn't explain MY idiot behavior!) Pretty soon, I'm thinking I'm being too harsh. That he's trying to be friends and I'm the one trying to make it into "something else" and it's all MY problem that I'm foisting on to him, that if I can just let go, the poor guy could do his job, and that it's not fair of me to not "move on" and "let it go" and be an adult--just be his friend and employer and leave the poor guy be. Go find someone else. What did I think was going to happen? I knew better and did it anyway, so it's my fault, not his, and I need to grow up (and on and on, letting my inner terrorist tear me to ribbons and take all responsibility and blame for being treated like a prostitute).

But guess what? The reason he wants to be "friends" again is because "Babushka" (his foreign obsession), in his words "broke up" with him (they never met or even talked on the phone--just FB messaged for 7 weeks). But "Babushka" sent me a FB message and a friend request after she "broke up" with him. This creeped me out--I don't want anything to do with this! I've already experienced several near vomiting episodes about having his obsessions in my face. I called him and tried to talk to him about this, ask what the heck is going on here, why am I dragged into this again, and he LAUGHED. I don't mean a quiet little chortle--I mean long hard guffawing. When I said "I fail to see how this is funny" he said "I don't owe you any explanations! We're divorced! This has nothing to do with me!" Things escalated from there, and I decided to fire him. Of course I felt sort of guilty at first, because I couldn't articulate why I was firing him. I couldn't say, to myself or him, "I'm sick of your crap--it's ALWAYS something with you; I can't get past my made up feelings for you (or my fairy tale wished for image anyway) when you are in my face; you can't keep your personal life out of your job; and most of all--why the $#@% should I continue to employ someone who has so little respect or regard for me?

I went over to his home workshop 5 days ago to get $4,000 worth of work supplies from there. Didn't realize it would take at least 2 trips. On trip 1, we ended up talking/arguing for 5 hours. My other employees texted to see if I was still alive. Ex tried to seduce me. I didn't go for it (for once   ) He laid out this long, disjointed, cobbled together story about what he wanted. He talked for hours--something he HATES doing (even for a few minutes, let alone hours), but I knew that wasn't about me, it was about trying to keep his job. And yes, he is going to have a really difficult time finding another job--something that makes me feel guilty--because he's mentally ill.

I came home and unloaded the stuff, puzzled about his long story. Had to go back the next day to get the rest of the load. When I woke up that morning, I somehow figured it out in my sleep. When I got back to Ex's for the other load, he's angry and indignant, claiming he's being fired because some "psycho chick" sent me a friend request, and this isn't fair. I confronted him and said "look--what you are saying you want, summarized down, is this: you want me to continue to employ you, and you want to be friends with me so you can take advantage of my feelings for you--so you can have sex with me while you look for someone else to have sex with. When you find someone else, you'll dump me. Until you get dumped by your new person, then you'll want to be "friends" with me again. And you don't want me to have any feelings about any of this--the sex, or getting dumped repeatedly--because you don't want that to interfere with your employment. is that correct?" He stood there with his mouth open, and finally said "well yes--but you make it sound pretty crude!" (right--what a jerk I am--after he spent so many hours trying to make it sound fluffy and palatable!)

I said "you think this is all funny. You don't just want to use me. You like the idea of humiliating me and rubbing my face in it. That's why you do this crap in front of me, and when that option isn't available you make sure it "somehow" spills over into my life anyway." and he nodded his head yes while I was saying this.

Well, friends, and neighbors--I'm sticking to my guns here. He's fired and I don't want any contact with him at all. Poke me with a fork, I'm done.

My writing this here is because (1) I need to spew it, and (2) I need some outside observation. Being in the center of my own maelstrom, it's hard to see it objectively. What do the rest of you see here? Can you identify my behavior? I know HOW I did this, but not WHY. Healthiness, good boundaries, changing my old patterns is deeply important to me--I need some feedback here (and yes, I do have a counselor--a new one, we're just getting to know each other). If you saw this go down (which you just did if you've read this far), what would you say about me and what's wrong with me? And the fact that some of knowing what's wrong hasn't stopped me from bailing in anyway? I've told you what it looks like from the inside--what does this look like from the outside?

[HurtinNW]

I have a few thoughts, and I will try to be honest and clear.

It doesn't sound from this that you fired him because of his work quality. You fired him because you are upset about him using you sexually and rubbing your face in his contempt for you.

My first question would be if you are at risk of lawsuit. You can't fire someone for failing to be a good sexual partner to their boss, and if you are his boss you shouldn't have been having sex with him. That's totally unethical for a boss to do. In my workplace I'd get fired in a nanosecond if I had sex with one of my employees, ex or not.

So, yes, I would say you have real challenges with boundaries. He was messing with you, but you were also in a position of power over him, and that's not okay either. He was in a position of having to please you or risk losing his job, which he did.

My thought is the two of you sound enmeshed in a pretty sick dynamic. He treats you with scorn, and you keep going back for more. You hold the power of his job over his head, he responds by throwing his sex escapades in your face.

I would suggest you get some serious distance from him in order to get clarity. Wrap up any legal or job issues you need to do about the termination, call a lawyer if needed, and put some space between the two of you.

We've all acted the fool, as my grandma would say, especially in these relationships. In the past I went and had sex with my numerous times after he treated me like dirt. In my case I was in pain, desperate, and unwilling to let the relationship go.

 

[eeks]

Hi doubleAries,

Thank you for having the courage to reveal all of this. 

My ex and I have been divorced for almost 3 years now, but he has continued to work for me (wholesale business) up until several days ago when I finally mustered the gumption to fire him. In the 3 years that we have been divorced, we have gone back and forth from "strictly business" to furtive sexual encounters (not a particularly rapid cycle--perhaps 3 separate sexual encounters in that time). The last sexual encounter being in February. Our sexual relationship was always humiliating and lousy--so why dive back into that? And each post-divorce encounter has been even worse than within the marriage itself. He has introduced even creepier aspects to the already nauseating dynamic. For example: within a half hour after having maybe the best sex we ever had (which isn't saying all that much) he was online, looking at a dating website, looking for a new partner. I couldn't really identify the strong emotions this evoked in me, so I dismissed them. I tried a little bit to verbalize something about it, without making my humiliation too vulnerable, and his reply was "what do you mean? we're divorced now." and he went back to scrolling. I tried mentally to accept this answer as logical and truthful, even though emotionally I was outraged.

HurtinNW has already suggested that you look into potential legal issues around his employment.  I'm going to focus on the interpersonal aspects.

If I'm reading this right, his outright cruelty seems to put you in a double bind.  You are outraged, but feel it would be "too vulnerable" to express it fully.  And so, you end up accepting substandard treatment.

Have you given serious thought to what your motivations were for having sex with him?  You say it wasn't even very good sex.  Is it possible you are doing it to hold on to the fantasy of a relationship with him in some way? 

 

There's that saying, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear", and yet it seems that's exactly what adults who grew up with dysfunctional parents try to do in their adult intimate relationships.  As children, they had to hang on to the fantasy "Mommy and Daddy would love me if only I was good enough", and so as adults they try to find a partner who is dysfunctional in the same way their parents were, in order to make that person into an ideal partner/parent. 

That's not a wrong thing to do, it just needs some conditions put on it.  I've read and reread Harville Hendrix's books, and I admit his skew towards marriage is a turnoff for me.  However, he says you cannot avoid finding a partner who will wound you just like your parents did, in fact it is precisely that that causes you to fall in love with that person (someone with the positive and negative traits of your early caregivers).  The difference with the relationships where partners work through those issues to form a healthy, fulfilling relationship is that not only do you have to be willing to change (you'll wound your partner just as they were wounded by their parents too, it works both ways) you also have to find a partner who is willing to change as well.

You're divorced, but you were sexually involved with your ex as recently as February so I'm going to take this as the most recent example of "what kind of person you attract and are attracted to".  He does not sound willing to engage in introspection at all (i.e. why do I keep using this one woman and treating her like dirt while I compulsively search dating sites and attach my fantasies to unavailable women?)  You, perhaps, are too willing to engage in introspection, to the point where you rationalize and make excuses for him (although you sound aware that this is what you are doing, which is important)

I think we talked about this on another thread, "what unsatisfying treatment/abuse/disrespect/etc do I believe on some level, even unconsciously, that I have to accept in order to be in a relationship?"

[HurtinNW]

I think we talked about this on another thread, "what unsatisfying treatment/abuse/disrespect/etc do I believe on some level, even unconsciously, that I have to accept in order to be in a relationship?"

Tagging on to this, it is helping me to ask myself what I thought the trade was.

The trade is when you are thinking at some level, "if I put up with him, he will put up with me." It is whatever parts of you that you are insecure, fearful about and believe are unloveable. So you think this is part of the deal. You have to get treated like dirt so you are accepted as well.

For me the trade involves fears I am unloveable due to my history of early childhood sex abuse. There is a part of me that thinks no decent man will want that shamed, hurt little girl inside me. So I felt I had to accept my ex treating me like crap because that was the trade for him accepting me.

Of course it never works like that. I accepted his abuse and he never accepted me. He was the opposite, very rejecting. He went out of his way to hurt that inner child. 

As eeks suggests, perhaps ask yourself what you were getting, what your motives were, and if there is something about you that you are afraid a kinder, loving man will not accept.

[doubleAries]

Thanks, and all good stuff!

First, I'm not all that worried about legal ramifications. We've worked together for the entirety of the existence of my business, and even though we were never really partners (it's a sole proprietorship, and I've always had to do all the administrative and managerial work while he dismissed that stuff as unimportant--because he didn't do it--and let me know daily that I was lazy, even when I was working 15 hour days, 7 days a week) even though we weren't really partners, I still made a deal to buy him out when we divorced (which I have upheld). All my employees (including him) are piece rate "sub-contractors" (1099's instead of the regular payroll headache). The rest of the employees have become beyond irritated with him, and question me at times why he is allowed so much leeway (for example, last month he showed up to drop off his stuff and when I was inside my house getting a UPS label, he started slamming stuff around on the tables, glowering, and then slammed out of the shop and flipped them all off through the window in the door. Other employees who have let their personal problems interfere this much with the work environment have been fired. So they rightfully want to know why not him?

No, he wasn't let go because of his work quality (though the bipolar issues do frequently interfere with reliability as well as making others extremely uncomfortable, and the personality disorder problems make him think he's special and doesn't owe anyone else an explanation let alone an apology). But no--he wasn't let go because he won't sleep with the boss (though he did accuse me of that during our 5 hour "discussion"--in spite of him being the seducer, and trying to seduce me during same discussion).

As I said, this started when his current obsession started approaching me on FB, and when I tried to find out from him why, he was delighted  and quite rude. By this point (since mid-February) I hadn't spoken to him about anything at all except work, and ignored most of his "friendly" overtures. And that's my point--HE keeps bringing sexuality into it. HE won't just let it be a working relationship (unless he has a current obsession, which don't usually last very long). I can't be friendly with him like I can with the other employees, because he always takes advantage of it. And I've continued to employ him because I believe that is MY problem to overcome--which it is--but thereby excusing/allowing his own behavior.

I have certainly scoured myself relentlessly, accusing myself of motives nefarious, but the truth of the matter is, I can't work with him. I thought I could, and tried, but I can't. I've continued to squirm and keep trying to work with him because I feel guilty about HIM and the hardships for HIM if he has to move on, and to blame myself for all the problems and discomfort, even as his incredibly outrageous disrespect escalates. While I work on better boundaries, my progress is slow compared to his expert level boundary busting. With lots of not insignificant reversals, that cause a lot of personal distress for me. I've tried to separate the work from the personal, but it isn't happening that way. Because he keeps it in my face all the time.

His "proposal" (that he continues to work for me even as he admits wanting to manipulate any feelings I have for him (or dysfunctions I have with him) so that he can have sex with me until he finds someone else to have sex with, and then castigate me for having any feelings about being used, mock as unimportant and inappropriate my voicing or having any feelings at all about being treated like a prostitute, and for ME to keep it separate from work even when he is doing this at work) is ridiculous. At best. I mean, he's being pretty open that this is the path he intends to continue to pursue. And he wants ME to say it has nothing to do with my own work environment, let alone his. HE is the one using his job to pursue this insanity, but wants ME to see them as completely different things, unrelated--even when it is on the job. And, of course, it's OK for him to be abusive to the other employees as well. He expects all of us to just pretend that none of his offenses happened and just accept this behavior as OK. But it's not.

And I need to get away from it in order to be able to stand up to it. I cannot do that and employ him as well. Any other employee that would insert themselves into my personal life this way would be fired (and I have done that--I had a lady last year who was great for several months and then reverted to her (unknown to me until then) alcoholism issues which were extreme--she told me her dad died, but turns out he didn't die after all, he was in a coma so he could relax! and then she took off her blouse at work one day to show one of my male employees a spider bite, all kinds of really inappropriate crap in about a one week period that was waaaaay disruptive. Boom-fired.) Yes, it's a bit different because he's my ex. But not that much. I mean really, I don't OWE anyone a job. Especially people who cause so much turmoil. Every single one of my other 7 employees think he should have been fired a long time ago. And they don't even have to work with him daily. In fact, they're a little put out that it hasn't happened before now. And he has taken to telling me that "everybody else" (whoever that is--outside of work) has been telling him that he's too dependent on me. In a smug tone for some reason.

Hell, it's hard to sort out. And maybe that's the point too. It's too enmeshed. I think it's time for both of us to move on. It isn't just about this particular ball of crap in the last few months--it's the accumulation.

Let's say we hadn't had sex at the trade show and there was nothing personal between us--would it then be OK for him to leer at and creep out a fellow vendor? In a work environment/capacity? While I pay him to do so? I've played mother for 20 years, and it doesn't do any good--the offenses continue to pile up. He told yet another fellow vendor at the trade show (I didn't know until a few weeks ago) that my business was almost collapsed. That without him at the helm (  he was NEVER at "the helm" it's all falling apart and near bankrupt. He argues with customers at the shows. OK, so I removed him from doing shows (especially after this last one). I keep having to rearrange things to keep my business "safe" from him, and to accommodate him in order to keep him employed.

I'm defensive. I need to look at that. I guess mostly because I should have let him go when I bought him out 3 years ago, and I didn't and it's taken me this long to get up the gumption to do it, and I don't want to be talked out of it, lest I be trapped in hell with this person for the rest of my life. My counselor approved of this decision, and when I told her I wasn't sure if I was being "fair" or not, she said "why is that the issue? If this isn't working out and isn't good for either one of you, then do the right thing, and match your actions to your rational thoughts, not your conflicting emotions."

UGH!

[doubleAries]

Ok, other issues brought up here:

from HurtinNW--

"It doesn't sound from this that you fired him because of his work quality. You fired him because you are upset about him using you sexually and rubbing your face in his contempt for you."

I'm disoriented now. But let's say this is true (and it may be part of the story, but not the whole thing). Does this sound like a good work environment? I mean, I try to make a good work environment for my employees, but shouldn't it be a good work environment for me too? It IS my company, after all, and I also have to work there every day. What if it was a different employee (not an ex) and it was the same thing but not anything to do with sexuality between us? Is rubbing my face in their contempt for me an appropriate way to treat your boss, or even a fellow employee? In any capacity?

And no, I shouldn't have been having sex with him. That's the point of my post. Even if we didn't work together (but working together makes it even worse--and more readily available).

A HUGE part of the problems between us--especially from his point of view--is my "power over him". Before I started my business, we worked together as construction laborers. That's how we met. He showed interest in me (well, that's what I thought it was--it was actually inappropriate probing with very personal questions). He was supposed to go on with the construction company to a more lucrative position once the job was up. With this in mind, I felt sorry for him that he was living at his brothers--in the BARN. I told him he could stay with me until he left for his job. One day on the job site, the supervisor asked me to come down from the roof I was working on to clean the bathroom (because I'm a woman). Now Ex was outraged and told me "You don't have to put up with that kind of $#@% and I don't want to work for such a slimeball! Let's go!" and got me to quit (he was my ride to work). Well, he became my hero for standing up for me. Except now, he's living at my house. And he not too long later accused me of causing him to lose his good job.

Then the "power trips" started. It was my house. So he accused me of lording it over him. I was NOT doing that, but could see how he might be afraid of that, so I went out of my way to make sure I WASN'T doing that--I let him treat me like dirt to prove I wasn't "lording" ownership of my house over him. And his "dirt treatment" escalated greatly--because he could. Because he knew I'd put up with it to prove I wasn't power playing him. The same thing is still going on, except now it's about work.

He got a job at a moving and storage company. I started my business. He had a fit at his job after several months and quit (I realized later, in hindsight, that this was a pattern for him--as his mental illness problems increased [and he wasn't doing any treatment at all] with the stress of his jobs, he'd eventually quit in a huff before he got overly delusional and embarrassed himself, and blame his boss or co-workers instead). He also blamed me--he had a GREAT job lined up, and I caused him to lose it. I spent massive amounts of time JADE'ing instead of noticing what was actually happening, and losing myself in the process as I also tried so hard not to be "power playing" (something I've never been given to anyway--I'm to much of a doormat for that). (bear with me y'all--I'm trying to work this out)

While he worked at the moving company, he never offered me any money at all for his room or board, never chipped in on groceries, never paid anything towards his upkeep. I resented it but never said anything because I didn't want to seem like I was "lording" my home ownership over him. He had loaned me a small amount of money when he first moved in so I could get my drivers license and insurance. He then, a year later, said I still owed him the money and was trying to rip him off (after living with me completely for free for a year). I was angry, and told him "take it out of the rent you owe me", but didn't kick him out, in order to--once again--prove I wasn't "lording" over him. By this time, he'd hit me many times, screamed at me--publicly and in private--over ridiculous things, and had made a habit of leering at other women in front of me at grocery stores or wherever. He'd taken me out for a birthday dinner and creepily leered at the waitress and when I said "stop acting like a creep" he got up and left me in the restaurant (45 miles from home) and left me to pay for both our dinners. I was, of course, quite angry, but put up with it in order to prove I was being "fair" and not "lording" anything over him--to try to show that the "personal stuff" was separate from my home ownership, and to prove I wasn't using the home ownership as power over his behavior (and perhaps, HurtinNW, this is why I am so defensive--I have spent 20 years of contorting myself, trying very hard to NOT do what you are saying it looks like I am now doing, even to the point of lunacy)

He looked unsuccessfully for another job for several months. I asked him if he wanted to help me with my business for the summer, while he was looking for another job. He agreed, but grudgingly--he made sure I knew daily that this was beneath his station, and that he went to (an Ivy league college), and that he was MUCH smarter than me (when we'd play scrabble, if he lost he'd throw the board on the floor and stomp away, bellowing those exact words--"I'M MUCH SMARTER THAN YOU! YOU MUST HAVE CHEATED!". He let it be known that this peasant work was temporary only, and that he was doing me a favor (even though he was being paid). This was around the time he started feeling out just how far he could push things--he began telling me (eventually it became daily) that I was fat, lazy, stupid, and ugly. I am 5' 7" and weighed 105 pounds. I knew I wasn't "fat". But the underlying message began to sink in loud and clear (the same message I grew up with--Eeks is entirely correct. The message that I am unlovable and unacceptable. As a kid, I had no choice but to try harder and harder to better, gooder, to try to survive and to hope I could gain approval and love. As an adult, I did have a choice but didn't really know or believe that--this was, by then, an unconscious pattern, that I have only in the past few years come to see and begin dealing with. Which is hard to explore when it's still in my face and ongoing).

I was trying to build a home when I met Ex. I had a beautiful piece of property and was making a stone house with my own hands, as a symbol of my independence and self reliability. I had dug out--with a shovel--a 40 foot by 50 foot foundation, filled it with rocks and cement I had to make by hauling water from the other end of the property. This project meant a great deal to me. I had worked temporary jobs to make a pile of money to do this work, and when the money ran out, I'd go get another temp job. I started my business (it involves local plants as natural incense) to make this easier. Ex didn't want to help build the house, because he claimed that "the rug could be yanked out from under him at any time" and he didn't want to invest his time and efforts into anything that he'd lose if that rug got yanked out from under him. He also didn't want to invest in his own groceries or in any fair "investment" in his own upkeep   He didn't say he was afraid of getting kicked out. He was afraid of being told to leave. He worded it as a victim, and me as the persecutor. I knew I wasn't persecuting, but felt I had to prove it. His security became my responsibility, and I take responsibility very seriously. The more elusive his security became, the harder I tried. The more I put up with. The more I sacrificed myself to his "needs", even if they harmed myself. I became an enabler.

My plan was to work while I built the house, and then build up the business. But Ex wanted money to make him feel secure. I grew tired of arguing with him that money wasn't going to solve the self esteem/security issue, and put aside the house building in favor of building up the business (he told his brother that $50K a year was the magic number that would make him secure--we passed that number a LONG time ago and guess what? right... .) Meanwhile, he began to be physically violent with me, and frequently challenged me to "step outside" to settle things. I saw myself becoming one of those "domestic violence" abused wives and was disgusted, but did it anyway. Wouldn't want to be "unfair" and kick him out--thereby "lording" home ownership over him, would I?   

We fought nonstop about almost everything. He never had solutions to offer (and I mean NEVER) but always had criticisms for the solutions I offered. He wanted to expand the business, but didn't want to hire people--even when we could no longer keep up. He would complain when I spent money to expand the business, even though I couldn't expand it without investing in it. I went along with pretending he was a "partner" even though he was actually only an employee--and an impossibly bossy one at that. He was angry if I ever spent money on myself for anything--I found myself wearing worn out clothing and shoes. He said he felt like he had to spend an equal amount of money to make sure it was fair. So I eventually insisted we have separate checking accounts--he blew a gasket. That's not what married couples are supposed to do!

What I'm saying is he grappled for power over me in all things, and projected onto me that I was the one doing that (pretty par for the course for personality disorders, right?) I sort of saw this, but was so busy trying to prove I WASN'T doing what he accused me of that I didn't even know what to do about it. I saw me dwindling into insignificance and servitude to (a) please him (impossible) and (b) prove I was being "fair", and him becoming increasingly comfortable with being the center of the universe (narcissism is only part of his diagnosis). I never knew how to remain human and autonomous with my diagnosed narcissistic father, and I never knew how to do that with Ex either. But I gather that changing them doesn't work--protecting yourself (boundaries) does, and that often requires removing yourself from their machinations. Maybe even in the form of firing them from their job.

I have tried very hard--TOO hard--to not hold the power over his job over his head. But at this point, I feel exhausted from the non-stop maneuvering, posturing, guarding, and protecting. I have to think about how to develop and then enforce a boundary. I'm getting better at it, but he can easily run right over those lines and push me and my lines back faster than I can recoup. He's running circles around me. I don't know what else to do but send him packing. I think that will give me relief, and also make him stand on his own feet and make his own decisions, instead of constantly accusing me of exerting "power and control" over him. There is one thread left between us--work--and I want to cut it because I want free of him. Once and for all.

[doubleAries]

eeks--I identify with everything you said in your comment. Everything.

I also keep thinking maybe it's only me--maybe it's all my fault, that the line between work and personal is so blurred here. That as "the boss" it's MY job alone to sort that out. But it takes 2 to tango. And in 3 years, I have made progress on unblurring that line, only to find it become more blurred than ever.

There was no sexual contact between us or even much personal contact for quite a while before February. I am furious with myself for "going there" and that I cannot say why I did so. That seems inexcusably dumb. Who else can say WHY? Only me, and I am blind to whatever that is. And if I can't see my motivation, how then can I prevent this further?

I've spent too much time in FOG and JADEing with this man--it's too easy to fall back into, and something he counts on.

No, he doesn't do introspection. He can't. Not even won't--CAN'T. Our marriage counselor years ago told me "(Ex) is not capable of the genuine and sincere emotional interaction required of an intimate relationship. His mental illness prohibits it. You CAN have a relationship, but not the kind you want or think you can have with him. And it would require iron strength boundaries on your part. Something you can't develop in the middle of the war. He is a perfect amalgam of your mother and father. But with a twist--he can't change, he can't "overcome" his incurable mental illness."

I felt great sympathy for him with this understanding, and resolved to "not take it personal". Which lasted about a year. In some part, because my boundaries aren't good enough. And in another part, because he has become accustomed to treating me poorly and doesn't even see it as a problem that needs to be changed.

The counselor did point out that just because he's mentally ill, doesn't mean he has to be a jerk. But he does it anyway--because he can. He always complained to me that his family members would manipulate him--that if there was something about him they didn't like, they'd blame it on mental illness (I tend to think, knowing his family members, that he WAS exhibiting mental illness issues and he just didn't like it pointed out). But over time I saw that HE uses mental illness as an excuse for really crappy behavior. And mostly, he expects others to make the connection for him. He's good at getting others to make excuses for him--something I am already too susceptible to.

I think throughout the marriage, the only way I could deal with it (just like as a kid) was to commit myself to the relationship (and perceived obligations thereof) rather than to him. And to look at him through a fabricated lens of what he COULD be, what I WANTED him to be, what I HOPED for--instead of who he actually is. Because who he actually is, is repulsive to me. He is a cruel and abusive and even dangerous person. I really don't like him at all. But I am still prone to slipping back into my practiced to death coping method of fairy tale futurisms and hopes without realizing it until I've struggled back out again. Not realizing I slipped OR struggled until hindsight.

This ongoing situation is too dangerous for me. I struggle out of the quicksand, and then he shoves me back in. And sometimes I just fall back in. I'm struggling with myself about whether it's OK for me to just want him and his quicksand to go away, even as I now go through the motions of doing it anyway.

He's told me for so long that I'm "lording power" over him that I'm not even sure if I am or not. And hardly care anymore--if it's true, then cutting that last thread between us (his job) should put an end to it, right? If I AM "lording power" over him, then I won't have any power left to lord over him if I fire him and we both get on with our lives.

[doubleAries]

one creepy thing I sometimes grasp onto is that I've invested so much time into this intense thing with him (and it has been a VERY intense 20 years). One motion by him that even looks like he's "sorry" and really does care about me, and I'm like a Pavlov's dog. AHA! FINALLY! SEE? He DOES care! And whether he did feel that at the time or not, he can't help himself--he twists into a domination game. And then I'm hurt and angry again.

[doubleAries]

AND, hmmm... .I can kind of see how my original post does sort of make it look like I'm firing Ex for using me sexually and rubbing my face in his contempt for me. I only explained the final straw for me, without a bigger picture. Well, because 20 years is a long time to write out, . Still trying to figure out how to give an overview without re-writing War and Peace.

I did want feedback on my own behavior, but also combined that behavior description with something peripherally related--my firing him--in a bundled kind of way.

What is driving me batsh!t crazy here is how this man could attach himself to me so thoroughly (ARGH! FOR ALL ETERNITY!) and at the same time make it seem like I am controlling and dominating his life unjustly. Like I have sought out control over him and am abusing it. When in reality, in many ways I've been trying to get rid of him since I met him, and he is hanging on for dear life. Yeah, I put up with a lot of crap and let it all slide so I wouldn't be perceived as a persecutor (even though I should have quit worrying about being painted as such and just walked away), but I DID also try to extract myself as peacefully, gracefully, and gently as possible (which didn't work).

Over the years, he'd complain bitterly that he hated me, my home, and our job. I'd get fed up and ask "then why are you still here?" and he'd always give the same answer "because I'm afraid to leave and start over". It was an honest answer. And it also took me 10 years to realize that I didn't even EXIST in that answer. It wasn't because he loved me and wanted to work things out... .I wasn't a thorn in his side--I didn't even exist. I was stunned when this finally hit me. I'd ask him to leave. He'd blow up and start destroying things. I was afraid to call the police (for one thing, they are 25 minutes away and he could have done a lot more damage in that time, and I was also afraid that that would be "unfair" of me, as well as irresponsible, , for not solving my own problems). Or we'd argue bitterly, with him saying things like "I KNEW IT! I knew you were just going to pull the rug out from under me!" and if I didn't caught up in JADEing about "pulling the rug out" from under him, he'd scream "SO WHAT... .DO I HAVE TO GET OUT RIGHT NOW?" And I'd fall for that trap--see? I'm going to be seen by him as a dominant controlling rug puller! Can't have that! and I'd try extra hard to be fair and say "no, you can look for a place first and pack your stuff." So he'd slam into the bedroom and lock me out to sleep on the couch. Then he'd just pretend that never happened. He wouldn't look for another place or pack any of his things. He didn't say anything either--he'd just pretend it didn't happen. When I'd bring it up again, he'd blow up again--"OH! SO you want me out AGAIN? Do I have to leave RIGHT NOW?" This totally wore me down after a while. I quit bringing it up, because instead of a request to leave, it became "an argument", in which I was accused of being a drama queen power thug. I couldn't think of how to get him to leave--he just wouldn't.

The only time I DID exert "power" was when things were in danger of slipping too far off the deep end. Or when I just couldn't take his crap anymore--like about the money fights. I put my foot down and insisted that we get separate bank accounts so he would quit belly aching that I was "ripping him off" if I spent 15 cents more on my item than he did on his (I'm not exaggerating--one time there was a blow up over 15 cents). He was furious about this change, even though later, when it worked out well for both of us to have our own money, he started telling people that it was HIS idea.

Like I said--he never had any solutions to offer for any problems (or even direction), but lots of criticisms and blow ups over my solutions or directions. I was always very careful to ask what he wanted to do first, so as not be accused of being controlling or dominating. And he'd sigh heavily, roll his eyes, and say "do I have to do EVERYTHING around here?" I'd keep after him to answer, and when he couldn't/wouldn't, I'd carefully, on eggshells, say "well, let's throw a few things on the table and discuss them." And he'd glower while I started, usually just getting up and walking out the door while I was talking. If I followed him and insist we needed to discuss these things (because they were constant sources of problems and arguments), he'd roll his eyes and say "I need to get to work. I can't just sit here and listen to you talk all day--you'll never stop." ANYTHING was more important than what I had to say or offer. Finally, I'd make a decision--and he'd blow up and criticize it. Then later, take credit for it.

When I'd make up a new product at work, he'd ridicule it and mock me--tell me how stupid it was and how I was going to cause the whole business to collapse with my stupid ideas (always the "voice of reason and rationality to my pie in the sky idiocy, even though the exact opposite was true). Then when it was a highly successful idea (I am VERY good at my job, even if I'm not at relationships!) he would, of course, take credit for it. I began to feel like my whole life was being usurped.

I'd go back to my house building project by myself--he'd come flying out the door of the 17 foot camp trailer we lived in (temp housing while I built a house--haha, ended up living in it for 24 years) and tell me I didn't know what I was doing and was going to screw it up, to stop until he could get this tool or that tool--at some other time of course--and through this method, he brought all building progress on the house to a complete halt (he still lives in the camp trailer to this day). I t became "not worth the fighting". Same with friends--he'd have a conniption when my friends came over (or if I went to their houses) and totally embarrass me, and it just became not worth it. Like all abusers, he isolated and controlled me. But then said I was the one doing it to HIM. And I slid into this crap, in exhaustion. It just wasn't worth the fighting. I learned to pick my battles, the ones that mattered. And less and less mattered over time, because it wasn't worth all the hassle.

I bought a small trailer to operate the business out of. When I was at my dad's house taking care of him right before he died, Ex burned the trailer to the ground. Probably not on purpose (though I've always wondered, because he was angry that I was taking care of someone else besides him) but just through obliviousness. I lost my entire business (with no insurance), and cried and cried watching the fire dept put the fire out (nothing was salvageable). Narcissist ex accused me of blaming him when it was obvious it was actually my fault for expecting him to do "everything" while I was "slacking off" and not working, and narcissist dad pouted and insinuated that I was selfish for not being there to take care of HIM when he was sick (he didn't want to go to the hospital where they wouldn't let him smoke 5 packs of cigarettes a day and have all his little dogs, and besides, nurses wouldn't do his bidding at all hours of the day and night--"get me some jello. not that kind, Make a different kind. And fill my ice bucket while you're up. And can you change the channel on the TV? Run down to the store and get me... .WHAT? The store isn't open all night? How ridiculous is that? And that toilet paper you bought yesterday--that's not Charmin double ply single roll like I asked for--throw it away. What you got was Charmin double ply double roll. That's NOT what I asked for. Here--cook this steak and cut it into tiny pieces for my dog. And where's that jello? Would you mind putting this Neosporin on my scrotum? (from the man who molested me as a kid) and isn't that jello done yet?" at 3am) Then I'd hire someone else to look after my dad for a while so I could go home and get caught up on my own life and job (narcissist dad would roll his eyes and say "OK, I guess I have to PAY you to take care of me--it probably pays better than that... .whatever it is "job" you do" and when I'd get home, bipolar narcissist husband would be in a rage that I was somewhere else instead of engaging in the workaholism HE wanted me to do.

My dad was near death for over 20 years. He took to his bed and wanted to be waited on because he was to "ill" to do it himself. He smooth talked doctors into massive prescriptions for OxyContin, which is what I believe actually finally killed him--not all the mysterious illnesses he supposedly had. Both of these men wanted me to become a nonentity whose only purpose in life was to serve them. But ex had/has a sadistic twist, like my mother (at least I cut off contact with that witch 25 years ago!).

I bought a crappy old scrapyard bus to get the business going in again until I could get a proper workshop built. That caused a blow up, of course. Wasting $30 on a bus! It took 2 more years of knock down drag outs before I finally put my foot down about building a workshop (forget the house). The guy still insisted the business wasn't generating enough money ($100K a year, no house/land payment or other bills) to make him feel secure but wanted to keep doing it all ourselves, out of a BUS. After the shop was built (and with non-stop fighting over it being built at all), he actually told people he'd planned the building.

We'd go to California to pick a certain sage that grows there that is very popular in my business (and only grows there). And even though my brother lived in California and I wanted to go visit him, it would take MASSIVE arguments to visit there 1 out of 10 or 15 trips. Because ex always wanted to go stay with COLLEGE FRIEND and his other college friend, her husband. It wasn't until we were divorced that I realized he'd been obsessed with her the whole time, and I was a prop to obfuscate that so her husband, ex's supposed best friend from college, wouldn't know.  

After 20 years of living with a man who would walk out when I'd try to talk to him, or snap a newspaper open in my face, or find something, ANYTHING, else to do to drown me out--turn up the radio, whatever--after we were divorced, he came over and started telling me about how he'd went to visit COLLEGE FRIEND and they sat in her driveway and talked for 3 hours. That he was calling her every day, trying desperately to think of things to say to keep her interested in the conversation and on the phone, and he was writing her 1500 word essays, pouring his heart out to her. Texting her several times a day, desperate to talk to her. That he was anxiety ridden that she was so casual with him, and was only offering crumbs--that he'd leave her several messages a day and she'd only call back maybe once a week. He went to visit her and she made him sleep on the couch, then told him a friend of hers was coming to visit and didn't like him. so he'd have to leave while the friend was there, and could come back after the friend left (overnight visit). So he camped in his car down the road from her house until the friend left. And when he came back to her house, he brought hundreds of dollars of flowers--that he'd been sending her flowers every day for weeks. She sent her a picture of himself hiking via email, and her only response was that the little orange flowers in the photo were cute, and did he know what they were? So he set out to find out what these wildflowers were, and after much effort, discovered what they were and procured seeds and sent them to her. And she didn't even thank him. But that's OK! He knew he'd done something nice.

[doubleAries]

(continued... .)

I couldn't believe this. Of all the people on the planet he wants to tell this to, he tells it to me. The person he never bought a single flower for in 20 years ("that's a stupid waste of money! why do women want flowers anyway? They're just going to die, and it's corny and a waste of money!" never wrote me a card or note, couldn't stand to talk to me for any longer than 2 minutes and only then if it was practical, work related, or of some major importance. FORGET "feelings"--that was basically a forbidden topic. Talking at all, about anything, was "wasting time" (his words, over and over and over).

And then he couldn't understand my anger. Seriously.

Especially that he had dragged me into this womans house maybe a hundred times over the years, insisting I was selfish for "never doing what HE wanted to do, visiting who HE wanted to visit--even though that's what we did MOST of the time. And I had convinced myself that how he treated me was "just the way he was", that he couldn't help it, it was his mental illness. I needed to be more understanding, more tolerant, more compassionate. I convinced myself that he DID care about me, but had a lot of trouble showing it or saying it. That I was being too self centered (something he gleefully liked to accuse me of often) for wanting more out of someone who was giving as much as they could. That my needs were too large.

And then he stands in my new house, after finally running me off out of my other house that I paid for myself with nothing from him, and tells me this #@$% with a dreamy look in his eyes, and expects me to UNDERSTAND.

Same crap with all his other obsessions too. Oh, how his heart is breaking! He has gone out of his way to be considerate and kind (even if obsessive) to every woman he pursues--EXCEPT ME. He treated me like dirt from the get go, and only increased the heaping on as time went by. My stupid little plan of being gooder and better and tolerant and loyal didn't work. Just like it didn't when I was a kid. And I can't help it--I'm mad as hell.

Not just because my childhood coping method didn't work--but because of this comparison. People tell me not to compare, and not to take it personal. Well I can't help it. I can't. I finally believe I matter enough to be good and angry about being treated this way. Having wasted 20 years on that man. Who STILL treats me with disrespect and disregard--sex or no sex. Even when it's "strictly business", he STILL treats me dismissively, and acts very put upon and as if he is taking some tolerant high road when I enforce boundaries with him. He still interrupts me when I'm speaking as if I wasn't even there. When I am talking to another employee, he butts right in with some other topic as if I wasn't even in the room let alone talking. He still walks away when I'm trying to tell him something--even if it's strictly work related. He still treats me like the "silly little drama queen" when I say something he doesn't like or agree with. He still thinks HE knows what's best for the business--even though he is only an employee and has nothing to offer but criticism. Why should I put up with this? Why SHOULDN'T I fire him?

I am finally in a safe place, living alone, where all this stuff is finally tumbling out of me--all the childhood stuff, and all the bad relationship stuff (that marriage by FAR being the longest one) and I am trying to sort it all out, cope with it, allow myself all the intense feelings I never allowed myself before, even if some of those feelings don't seem "reasonable" or logical (or valid--I always invalidated my own feelings, no matter how appropriate they were) and frankly, I don't want this jerk in my face. He's part of that inner trauma for me. And he can't keep it "strictly business"--he wants to be "friends" and keeps sneaking it in. And I'm susceptible, because I'm emotionally vulnerable, scared and alone and with an inner child who is confused about who is safe to turn to for comfort, reassurance, and support. Even when I am filled with hatred for ex, when I feel really insecure or vulnerable, I want to turn to HIM   for that reassurance and comfort, knowing full well I won't get it (I'll get treated like dirt instead) because (a) I spent 20 years with him and that attachment doesn't go away overnight--especially when the person doesn't go away, and (b) because when I was a kid, I had no choice but to turn to my abusers for the comfort and reassurance that every little kid needs (not just wants), and it's bad pattern that takes time to undo and reprogram. But with all of this stuff pouring out of me (mostly just when it feels like it, and very intensely--when it really comes gushing out at inconvenient times, I call those times "meltdowns", because basically they are) I feel pretty insecure and vulnerable. And 99 times out of 100, I do NOT turn to the ex for comfort and reassurance. But 1 time out of 100 I do--especially when he's there, saying he wants to be friends. And I know (now) what he means is he  wants someone to listen to HIS emotional pain--with no reciprocation; and more than that, wants someone to humiliate. To build himself up by putting me down. PERFECT! Just like childhood! AND, he wants that twisted version of "friendship" to lead to hollow humiliating sex--while he looks for someone else to have sex with that he actually WANTS to have sex with. In my face.

And he's succeeded with this on 3 different occasions. And basically said that's what he intends to keep doing. He just doesn't want me to make it sound so "crude". He wants me to accept this, as he has. He's the most rigid person I have ever met. He will do exactly that, as long as he can find any chink in the armor, any crack in the door. I don't need this. At all. Right now is more about gushing what's inside of me--steel boundaries are too hard. I'm accessing my vulnerability--not my defenses. And I don't want him around anymore. Even if it's "unfair" to fire him over (ie: unrelated to job performance)

[Rubies]

((doubleAries))   Good rant, get it puked out!  

I'm glad you shut the door on xh.  I hope you can keep it closed, you've had enough poor treatment.  Time to create space for the good things in life.

It sounds like you, like many of us from the same situation, have complex stress syndrome/complex PTSD.  Because of long term trauma and conditioning, we tend to get stuck in a wet paper bag with BPDs and NPDs and can't find our own lives.   They of course, will stick around and feed as long as you let them.   Changing that dynamic, is a challenge for many people.  We have to change ourselves.

The book, Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Peter Walker was recommended to me by a couple of therapists.  I find it very helpful.  I've given copies to friends like us and they find it very helpful in their recoveries, too.   We have to rebuild ourselves to be who we want to be, not defined by others.  We have to set boundaries, learn to enforce them, learn not to accept poor treatment.  

Once we know what feeling good is like, we have no reason to go back to feeling bad.

[eeks]

one creepy thing I sometimes grasp onto is that I've invested so much time into this intense thing with him (and it has been a VERY intense 20 years). One motion by him that even looks like he's "sorry" and really does care about me, and I'm like a Pavlov's dog. AHA! FINALLY! SEE? He DOES care! And whether he did feel that at the time or not, he can't help himself--he twists into a domination game. And then I'm hurt and angry again.

What will it take for you to give up on the fantasy that you can (and must) convince someone who is in no shape to be in any kind of relationship* to love you?  I think that's what I'm seeing here, when you say "see, he does care!" that something in your mind feels victory over that, you finally convinced the bad parents to become good parents and care for you.  You made the story turn out right this time.

And I believe we do need that kind of bond with another person... .but with what kind of person?

I know, I mentioned the idea that we are inevitably drawn to someone who will wound us the way our parents did (and we will do the same to them), but how about someone who is in a better position to be in a r/s, e.g. he is developing emotional self-awareness, is in therapy himself and doing his own trauma healing work?

You've read Pete Walker's book (so you probably recall his answer that grieving and raging are part of it), you've done the inner child stuff... .I'm wondering about some work that addresses the trauma in the body/nervous system? 

There's a therapy called Somatic Experiencing, I had a couple sessions but at that time there was only one practitioner doing it in my city and I don't think she'd completed the training, so she was doing a mix of SE and some other things.  I have heard good things about that though, as well as about Myofascial Release massage therapy, yoga with a trauma-informed practitioner... .

Or, you say you have a new T, if you develop enough of a bond with her (and she is skilled enough with emotions) you could get more of a sense of your own worth and ability to love.

The other thing that comes to mind is, regarding this "making a person who can't love, love you"... .you had to survive that in your family growing up, and that was quite a feat!  I've heard the survival personality referred to as the "Loyal Soldier", and I think you have the right to marvel at your own tenacity for that. 


*he goes after unavailable women, COLLEGE FRIEND is married right?, and treats the available one, you, like a non-person.

[doubleAries]

Rubies--thanks. Pete Walker's book is my BIBLE. In fact, when my counselor took an administrative job and couldn't do personal counseling anymore, I called Pete Walker to see if he could do skype counseling with me. He said he was all booked up, but gave me a referral that I took him up on. That's my new counselor.

eeks--What will it take for me to give up on my fantasy... .good question. One I have asked myself over and over and over. It's beyond frustrating.

It was understandable that he felt insecure when he moved in with me. That it was MY place, MY stuff, MY job--everything was mine. He is already the type of person who is very uncomfortable with dependency (and his view of himself re: mental illness, makes it all the more important to him to be independent and productive). But he didn't say (probably COULDN'T say) he felt dependent and insecure about that dependency. He instead heavily implied that I was "lording power" over him. I wasn't--I was trying to share. I was pleased I had something to offer. But that was never really resolved, and it shaped the relationship in a big way. He implied, and I JADEed. We could talk and I could explain something, and he could "get it" but not retain or utilize it. I'd see the lightbulb come on, then go back off. He just really can't do introspection. And I have an electron-microscope on myself at all times. Round and round and round.

I tried even harder than I did as a kid--maybe because of that lightbulb he'd get. I never saw the lightbulb when I was a kid. So as an adult, I thought I was "winning". That I was resolving it. C'mon!---just a little more... .! Almost there! Sigh... .

Here's what else happens--when I see something about myself, some way I was dysfunctional and how I created problems as well, I immediately say "AHA! See? It really was all my fault! And now, it is only appropriate that I "fix" what I have screwed up. I must go back and make this right." If he has a disconnect between the pieces and what they add up to, then I have a disconnect about dynamics and all the roles. If I find an error in myself, then I alone am the cause of ALL dysfunction!

I also have to spew and spew to find all the pieces to see which ones are twisted or broken. And the spewing usually starts with my victimization. Then my role. I also have a tendency to "do something" about my emotions instead of just allowing them, experiencing them. In victim mode, I am righteously angry and set out to defend myself. When I see my own role, I am ashamed and set out to make amends. This makes for fairly erratic behavior on my part. I need a lot more practice just feeling my emotions instead of acting on them. And no matter how much I remind myself, when NOT in the throes of those emotions, to just allow the emotions to flow naturally, I almost always forget to do that when I most need to remember it (and then I need to fix *that* ). I have to go through EXACTLY what happened, what was done to me, and then I can locate my reaction. Of course, like most of us, my reaction always felt soo justified. And that justification system makes it difficult to see my actions and reactions alone, without picking through the entire event first.

I regret that I cannot answer the question, of what will it take for me to give up on my fantasy. It so deeply embedded that I can hardly picture a life without it (though I very much want to) in any practical way. I can *picture* it sometimes, but then there is a disconnect between the picture and the actions/reactions. My hindsight is very, very good--my foresight leaves a massively lot to be desired.

[doubleAries]

And speaking of victimization and "fixing"... .

There is an article on here (this site) somewhere about the 3 faces of victim (Karpman or drama triangle) written by Lynne Forrest (perhaps Skip posted it?) It really hit home for me, and does occur to me that the Karpman triangle is the core of all dysfunction. I subscribed to Ms. Forrest's weekly newsletter via email, and just got one today that walloped me. It is pretty much written about me. I think many of us can relate to it, but it really made an impact on me. Here it is:

"Greetings. Today I want to speak to you about how we move around the victim triangle internally and how that internal movement around the triangle turns into an external dance around the triangle with others. First we must start by understanding something about the beliefs that set us up for life on the victim triangle.

We all have some sort of internalized limiting belief about ourselves (at least I've never met anyone who doesn't). Most common perhaps are painful beliefs that originate out of an assumption that we are not acceptable to others (or God) as we are. Although we may not have given it much conscious thought, many of us have the idea that we must live up to a certain set of standards - that we must qualify for acceptance or approval from the world and others. We judge ourselves accordingly.

For instance, we may believe we need to be perfect, all-knowing, and/or error-free to be acceptable. Sounds sort of crazy when we say it out loud, doesn't it? Perfection is not possible, we all know that, but nevertheless we often act out of such beliefs without even recognizing that we are doing it!

Such impossible ideas about who and what we need to be create much unhappiness precisely because we cannot live up to the perfection these beliefs demand from us. We end up judging ourselves harshly as a result which only compounds our painful feelings towards ourselves.

These limiting ideas about ourselves become, what we call, 'core beliefs,' and they determine our quality of life. These life-inhibiting core beliefs generate our feelings and our reactions to life and they put us on the victim triangle where we perpetuate and verify them.

Let's look at how a core belief can move us around the victim triangle internally, and then how we can end up projecting unsavory beliefs about ourselves onto someone else. Tina in the example below is a pseudonym that stands for you and me. I am simply personalizing, for the sake of clarity, a process here that all people do.

Tina believes that she is on some level not good enough: her belief put in words might be stated, "I am unacceptable." She feels inadequate and flawed, although she hides it well. This limiting core belief places her on the victim triangle with herself as her own primary persecutor and sets in motion an internal dance around the triangle that might go something like this:

Believing she is inadequate, Tina desperately wants to feel better about herself, so she initiates a demanding program of self-improvement. Her goal is to fix (or rescue) herself from feeling inferior by shaping herself into someone more acceptable.

Tina has moved into the rescuer role on the victim triangle (not that we shouldn't set goals towards self-improvement, but when we do it to rescue ourselves from self-denigration and self-persecution we are on the victim triangle).

No matter how ambitious Tina is in pursuing her latest self-modification program, she is never fully satisfied; no matter how much progress she makes it's never enough to take away the deep-seated sense of inadequacy she feels at her core. She is inevitably left feeling just as defective and inferior. This leaves her feeling hopeless. Tina has moved into the victim role on the triangle with herself.

From the victim role on the triangle, Tina, again, moves into a

persecutor role with herself: "What's wrong with me?" she asks herself. "I am just too inept, stupid, and hopeless to ever get it right!"

Of course, this sort of putting herself down is too painful to endure for long. It's only a matter of time before Tina seeks relief (and what person in their right mind wouldn't seek relief?) by rescuing herself again.

Tina (like most of us in such a situation) sooner or later will resort to the ultimate self-rescue; it's one we all inevitably (and

unconsciously) do - she finds someone outside herself with whom she can project her judgment towards herself.

Tina finds someone in her life that fits her negative (and largely

unconscious) self-assessment and projects her harsh judgments there. Often (but not always) she chooses someone who is close to her. By unconsciously projecting her negative judgment onto the other she is able to alleviate her own internal distress and thus rescue herself even as she persecutes them! (Have you ever noticed that the people we are most judgmental of are the ones we profess to love the most? This is how and why that happens! This is why we say that the things we judge in others are the things we first deem unacceptable in ourselves.)

The dance around the victim triangle has now moved from inside Tina's mind out into her relationship with others. By finding fault with someone else she has unconsciously invited them to join her on the victim triangle. She proceeds to persecute (by judging and blaming them), rescue (through her attempts to change or "fix"

them) and feel victimized by them (when they fail to appreciate her efforts to fix them).

As long as Tina judges herself as painfully inadequate she will continue to live on the triangle both inside her own mind and in her relationships with others. She has no choice.

Next week I will share some suggestions about how to get off the triangle with ourselves and others. In the meantime I hope this illustration has been helpful in demonstrating how internally victimizing ourselves leads to an external projection of our negative judgments on others. Perhaps it also helps us understand better what it means to say that we cannot truly forgive others until, and unless, we first forgive ourselves."

Blessings,

Lynne

[Grey Kitty]

I also have to spew and spew to find all the pieces to see which ones are twisted or broken. And the spewing usually starts with my victimization. Then my role. I also have a tendency to "do something" about my emotions instead of just allowing them, experiencing them. In victim mode, I am righteously angry and set out to defend myself. When I see my own role, I am ashamed and set out to make amends. This makes for fairly erratic behavior on my part.

I don't know if you saw this topic on a similar situation that P&C had:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=292655.0;all

I think the key point here is to realize when to look at your behavior and when to include the other party's behavior.

It is very healthy to look at your past behavior and see where you did something unhealthy or even unfair/wrong to another person, feel regret, and do whatever you can to prevent yourself from repeating that behavior. This you can do looking at your own behavior in isolation. Perhaps you even need to do this without considering the other party's behavior.

When you start thinking of apologizing to that person, making amends, atonement, etc... .at that point, their behavior has to be included before you take action.

If your 'bad' behavior was in response to worse behavior on his part... .I don't see that the action of making amends is likely to have a good result, and therefore isn't a very good idea.

That said... .you can and should take the lesson going forward to do better yourself, in whatever relationship you end up in!

[doubleAries]

sticking with my plan here. Even in a "strictly business" environment, every single interaction comes with this package deal of ridiculousness. example: ex calls to ask if he can drop off his work later in the afternoon, and I was planning on picking it up so I could combine the trip with getting more of my dads stuff out of the barn. I say "um, ok, but I... ." and he hangs up on me. No "goodbye", nothing, just hangs up.

A few days ago, he wanted to bring his work, and it was raining (so I didn't want to get stuff out of the barn) and I said I was planting some plants so don't come over right now (these are plants for my business). He offers to bring his auger over to make holes for the plants. I say well, ok. He says I'll be there in a an hour. 2 1/2 hours later, he arrives and is angry that I am just finishing up transplanting the plants. He snaps "well, I wish you'd have told me you were going to do them by hand before I mixed the gas for the auger!" and I say "well, maybe you should have told me you weren't coming when you said you were". And he glowers, stomps away, slams his car door and peels out in my driveway. And I think "you know--I don't want to deal with this anymore." He's already playing the "let's pretend that didn't happen" game, and that his job will continue past today. Which it won't.

I don't want to work with this guy.