wrong time of my life to start having boundaries?

[patientandclear]

Long story very short: I've often stayed too long in relationships that were hurtful. But I learned (particularly at the end of my abusive marriage). And now, in the 5 year (so far) dynamic with my BPDex, most of which unfolded after he formally broke up with me, I have been a regular boundary machine. He doesn't respond well to boundaries and each time it feels like I am likely bringing on the end of the r/ship. He interprets my boundaries as me having some objectionable quality (controlling, condescending, demanding).

This might have been all well and good in my 20s or 30s. But I'm 50. I'm a woman, and someone with considerable power and authority in my sector, which men seem to find distinctly unsexy. I feel like the intimate connection we had is not necessarily going to come again. And (as I write from the hospital room of my critically ill sister, whose husband is reminiscing about how tomorrow is the 29th anniversary of their first date ... .Something I recall about my r/ship with my ex, but I'm sure he does not) the idea that such connection is expendable is hard for me to accept. Congratulations to me for having boundaries, treating my ex's wishes with respect, walking away when our needs and desires did not perfectly match. My boundaries and I are staring at a pretty stark, lonely existence. Was it REALLY so important to draw these lines, when I consider that it cost me what was the most fun, challenging, thought-provoking, rich r/ship I've had for many years--though it also brought me more pain than any other? So much of the pain has come in the losing of him/us ... . Sometimes, too, from the circumstances when we were in touch (when he was seeing other women), but not always.

In a vacuum, it's possible I would think I made good decisions (good for me and good for him too).  But given the place in my life I've arrived at ... .Really? How is making conditions he can't deal with in my best interest?

[flourdust]

In a vacuum, it's possible I would think I made good decisions (good for me and good for him too).  But given the place in my life I've arrived at ... .Really? How is making conditions he can't deal with in my best interest?

You've written about your boundaries' effects on him.

What about the effects on you? How does enforcing your boundaries make you feel?

[patientandclear]

Like I said, if I were younger, it would feel good I think. But as it is, it comes along with what seems like an awful penalty: deep loneliness. I have spent more of my adult life outside a r/ship than any woman I know, so it doesn't help me to practice being alone, learn to like it etc. I know "alone" well. I think I've mined for what it has to teach me. I feel the consequence of my own boundaries may be too heavy a price. Which is not about the boundaries per se. It's about what happened as a result.

[flourdust]

I'm only two years younger than you. Starting to enforce my boundaries ... .that was hard. It unquestionably escalates the conflict. You take back power that you've ceded to him -- power to have your own thoughts and feelings, to not be a prisoner to abuse.

My calculation was that being alone was better than being abused. It took some time to come to that realization and accept it.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey P&C-

He doesn't respond well to boundaries and each time it feels like I am likely bringing on the end of the r/ship. He interprets my boundaries as me having some objectionable quality (controlling, condescending, demanding).

What jumps out for me is of course, he has to.  Someone without a self of their own, so someone who needs to psychically attach to someone else to feel whole, to feel like they exist, is going to interpret a boundary as abandonment and a severing of the attachment.  And that doesn't feel good, and looking introspectively at himself is not an option, so it has to be all about you and your objectionable behavior.  Been there, not fun.

This is big for me lately as well.  Abusive people bust boundaries, and it is critical for me lately to identify boundary busters early and bail, remembering that not all people are abusive and most people respect boundaries.  Of course, as a relationship with someone develops, romantic or otherwise, there will be some testing of boundaries, unknowingly crossing a few, all part of two autonomous individuals getting to know each other.  I'm a little older than you and I understand, it's not like when we were younger, although life seems to be making more sense than it ever has lately, a benefit of age, and it can be more difficult to develop new relationships the older we get, but it also matters a little less, and I'm certainly not going to settle for crap in an attempt to deal with 'lonely', which is different from alone anyway, and today folks need to show me why they belong in my life, which is a brand new world for me, as we go into the most comfortable period of our lives.  Of course it would have been nice to come from this frame a few decades ago, but hey, it is what it is, might as well enjoy it now yes?

[gotbushels]

Really? How is making conditions he can't deal with in my best interest?

If you don't have or didn't have the boundaries, how is the result in your best interest? Is there a third option?

[Narkiss]

What are your boundaries? How does it feel when he smashes through them? Can you picture being in a relationship that is mutually supportive and loving?

I am the same age as you. I am also in a relationship of sorts with some who steamrolls over my boundaries and most things are on his terms. (Or rather, I have such poor boundaries -- I didn't realize until recently that I should even have them -- that I immediately give them up for fear that I will rock the boat and he will leave) I have started feeling that I would do almost everything to keep this relationship going for some of the same reasons as you. And it is a pretty crummy feeling. It is like this has become a transaction at least on my end.

[HurtinNW]

I think the three of us, pc, Narkiss and myself, are in similar age, career and fear stages. We are all very successful, tenderhearted women of our late 40s - early 50s, all facing what looks like a possibly very lonely future. As pc says, being a successful woman of our age does seem unsexy to many men. I know some will say there are men out there who are not intimidated, but I can speak from experience that many men my age do seem more comfortable dating younger and less successful women. I think we all thought we had finally found the love we had sought with our BPD/NPD, and to have it come crashing down is really, really hard.

My ex also responds to boundaries by breaking up with me. He responds to any need on my part that way. I don't think this is just about boundaries for these men... .it is about us learning that the condition of having the relationship is to walk permanently on eggshells.

To be honest, I felt hurt and sad that other posters here can have a boundary with the BPD partner and not have it result in said partner breaking up and vanishing. In my case, and I think with pc and narkiss, the efforts to create boundaries do not result in an extinction burst but the loss of the relationship.

Pc, I've been feeling really low the past few days and going through similar feelings. I made decisions that he couldn't deal with. In my case it involved not just setting a loving boundary, but trying to communicate my feelings. There are so many times I ask myself, why did I do that? I feel like it is my fault I lost the relationship because it appeared to happen as the result of *my* actions. In previous recycles I would tell myself the answer is to not do those things again. I feel shame and anger at myself I was unable to stop myself from (fill in the blank). My therapist says in a healthy relationship I would feel free to communicate my feelings, free to talk it out, to express concerns or set a boundary... .even inelegantly, even in a state of emotion. In other words I could make mistakes even and not lose the relationship because of them.

I also feel I would do anything to have a relationship with him, and then I wonder why, when so much of it was so awful. When he invalidated me constantly.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi fellow Ladies of a Certain Age,

I'm in my early 50s. Not career successful in the traditional career sense, but pretty sure of who I am. I could certainly have done with meeting a sane person at my stage of life, not someone with BPD.

... .in the 5 year (so far) dynamic with my BPDex... .I have been a regular boundary machine. He doesn't respond well to boundaries and each time it feels like I am likely bringing on the end of the r/ship. He interprets my boundaries as me having some objectionable quality (controlling, condescending, demanding)... .

Yes, this applies to me too. I also feel that every boundary I set is likely to bring on the end of the relationship along with verbal abuse and accusations that I am controlling and demanding, don't love him etc. Setting boundaries with my BPDxbf is like setting light to gunpowder.

To be honest, I felt hurt and sad that other posters here can have a boundary with the BPD partner and not have it result in said partner breaking up and vanishing. In my case... .the efforts to create boundaries do not result in an extinction burst but the loss of the relationship.

I may be a little foggy on extinction bursts, but I think breakups are extinction bursts, just very extreme ones that allow for no method of implementing the boundary. It's expert boundary-busting on their part because the lack of graduation of their response leads to no room for manoevre on our part. For instance, if I say I'm turning off my phone when he uses abusive language towards me, he continues sending me abusive stuff and dumps me whilst my phone is off. I know it's going to happen. I feel that all I can do is let him dump me again. I want to believe that there is another way, but it doesn't seem possible to set boundaries with some pwBPD. How can I walk away from his abuse when it causes an escalation that rapidly leads to him ending it or refusing to see me? Is all hopeless in this situation?

Lifewriter x

[HurtinNW]

Hi fellow Ladies of a Certain Age,

I'm in my early 50s. Not career successful in the traditional career sense, but pretty sure of who I am. I could certainly have done with meeting a sane person at my stage of life, not someone with BPD.

... .in the 5 year (so far) dynamic with my BPDex... .I have been a regular boundary machine. He doesn't respond well to boundaries and each time it feels like I am likely bringing on the end of the r/ship. He interprets my boundaries as me having some objectionable quality (controlling, condescending, demanding)... .

Yes, this applies to me too. I also feel that every boundary I set is likely to bring on the end of the relationship along with verbal abuse and accusations that I am controlling and demanding, don't love him etc. Setting boundaries with my BPDxbf is like setting light to gunpowder.

To be honest, I felt hurt and sad that other posters here can have a boundary with the BPD partner and not have it result in said partner breaking up and vanishing. In my case... .the efforts to create boundaries do not result in an extinction burst but the loss of the relationship.

I may be a little foggy on extinction bursts, but I think breakups are extinction bursts, just very extreme ones that allow for no method of implementing the boundary. It's expert boundary-busting on their part because the lack of graduation of their response leads to no room for manoevre on our part. For instance, if I say I'm turning off my phone when he uses abusive language towards me, he continues sending me abusive stuff and dumps me whilst my phone is off. I know it's going to happen. I feel that all I can do is let him dump me again. I want to believe that there is another way, but it doesn't seem possible to set boundaries with some pwBPD. How can I walk away from his abuse when it causes an escalation that rapidly leads to him ending it or refusing to see me? Is all hopeless in this situation?

Lifewriter x

That last question is the hundred dollar question in my opinion, and not one I've seen necessarily answered here. I'd love to hear from the senior members on that one.

And lifewriter, I should have included you in our special club Now we all we need is a name and a secret handshake. 

[Lifewriter16]

I'm pleased to join the club Hurtin! 

It strikes me that maintaining boundaries by walking out of the room, turning off the phone etc can be perceived by some pwBPD as abandonment which adds fuel to the fire rather than dampening it down. It may be that I've been doing it wrong... .

Lifewriter x

[Narkiss]

As a person pretty new to boundaries, isn't the idea that certain things are so important that we have to be willing to walk away. They do, all too easily. A healthy person would not leave us for expressing our feelings and needs or call us selfish if we refuse to be raged at. Instead of us conditioning them to respect us and our feelings, they condition us to put up with abusive behavior. Some pwBPD can respect boundaries, but there is a continuum, and ours do not/cannot. Mine does not rage at me, but he abandons me whenever I express my feelings or needs.

I am not exactly afraid that  I will never meet anyone. I am terrified I will never meet anyone I feel so strongly about, so close to or enjoy being with so much.

[HurtinNW]

Yes, mine breaks up and abandons me when I express my feelings as well. The relationship only resumes if I initiate. My guess is that really isn't maintaining boundaries, since he learns all he needs to do is wait me out and give me the silent treatment until I relent.

Lifewriter, I am sure he sees it as abandonment. My ex is more along the NPD side, and takes my feelings as accusations. He cannot bear to think he is wrong in any way, which makes communication very difficult, especially as he takes different opinions and ways of doing things as accusations he is wrong. I don't think you are doing it wrong. The idea is not letting them abuse us. I guess we have to accept the risk that setting a boundary means they will opt out of the relationship.

Narkiss, I know I could probably find someone. But I do doubt I will find someone I felt so strongly about, a person that I did enjoy being with so much, whom I felt so incredibly comfortable with... .when it was good. 

[Lifewriter16]

As a person pretty new to boundaries, isn't the idea that certain things are so important that we have to be willing to walk away. They do, all too easily. A healthy person would not leave us for expressing our feelings and needs or call us selfish if we refuse to be raged at. Instead of us conditioning them to respect us and our feelings, they condition us to put up with abusive behavior. Some pwBPD can respect boundaries, but there is a continuum, and ours do not/cannot. Mine does not rage at me, but he abandons me whenever I express my feelings or needs.

I am not exactly afraid that  I will never meet anyone. I am terrified I will never meet anyone I feel so strongly about, so close to or enjoy being with so much.

Hi Narkiss. I fear that you are completely right with this one. I understand what you are saying about never meeting someone you feel so strongly about (all the pain of FOO stuff and anxiety mixed with passion is a heady mix, though sometimes wonder if I mistake pain for love) but I have to say that I don't think I have actually enjoyed being with my BPDxbf since September 2014. I have felt close to him, but it's so emotionally intense that it's very tiring and after I've seen him, I am desperate for a rest from him. Unfortunately, his perception is that there is no point in being in a relationship with someone unless they are 'there' for him when he needs them, which is a problem for me because he needs me on at least a daily basis and the consideration of his needs consume every waking hour if I allow them to. Trying to turn that around by cancelling a date because I needed time to think was what led to the latest breakup. The problem with boundaries is that if I don't set a boundary around the stuff that isn't worth walking away from, then the boundary setting starts at a much higher level of abuse and the extinction bursts are, by definition, that much more serious. What I mean is this, if I don't challenge verbal abuse, he'll start on the physical abuse because I accepted the verbal. I think we are onto a lost cause here.

Lifewriter x

[Herodias]

" I have spent more of my adult life outside a r/ship than any woman I know, so it doesn't help me to practice being alone, learn to like it etc. I know "alone" well. I think I've mined for what it has to teach me."


I feel the same way... .I am 51 and I did not marry until I was 43. I have had relationships, but have had long periods of being alone in-between. I think I stayed too long in this marriage because of my age and I didn't want to be alone again. I truly loved him more than anyone I was ever with before. If I tried to put up boundaries with my husband, it only backfired on me. He was impossible. I think he is someone who doesn't care about age, but used it against me later. I am older than him... .Now he is with a younger woman he can control better... .so he thinks. I think as women mature, they learn to stand up for themselves. I would think young women of today may be better at it than we were.  He chooses women of all ages, but I believe he would really like to be with someone who has money. Like a Sugar Momma... .He would always tell me he was going to find some rich woman who lives on a fancy resort island nearby us to support him! He asked me when he could put me in a senior home after we first married. I have put up with all the put downs about my age... .Like "what are those brown spots on your face"?... .he was so mean to me. So here I am alone again. I would rather be alone than be abused. I keep telling myself that I fell in love with a person that was charming me... .not the real person. He drove me crazy most of the time. So, in case any of you are wondering... .the hopes that a younger person will take care of you in your old age... .didn't work out so well for me. I felt the same way- that I will never meet someone I felt so strongly about, but I have to keep reminding myself. Keep it real next time if there is one. Prince Charming is not real... .

" My ex is more along the NPD side, and takes my feelings as accusations. He cannot bear to think he is wrong in any way, which makes communication very difficult, especially as he takes different opinions and ways of doing things as accusations he is wrong. I don't think you are doing it wrong. The idea is not letting them abuse us. I guess we have to accept the risk that setting a boundary means they will opt out of the relationship."

Mine too... .I never thought of it this way- Mine took feelings as accusations too. Mine did leave when the boundaries got too big for him to handle.

[doubleAries]

Hi--I'm joining the "otherwise successful women in their 50's who are tired of taking crap" club.

I went around and around that circle for 20 years. How I can make this change? How can I turn this dysfunctional relationship into a functional healthy one?

Well, it takes 2 to tango. And so you can't do it all by yourself. Just the way it is. I also got tired of ALWAYS having to be enforcing boundaries around this person. Sticking my toe back into the dating waters, and not relishing it at all. But better than swallowing abuse just to not be alone.

I read a rather funny and silly book that actually made quite the impact on me--called "he's just not that into you" (the book, not the movie--which was quite different than the book). You might give it a read!

[Lifewriter16]

Hi--I'm joining the "otherwise successful women in their 50's who are tired of taking crap" club.

I went around and around that circle for 20 years. How I can make this change? How can I turn this dysfunctional relationship into a functional healthy one?

Well, it takes 2 to tango. And so you can't do it all by yourself. Just the way it is. I also got tired of ALWAYS having to be enforcing boundaries around this person. Sticking my toe back into the dating waters, and not relishing it at all. But better than swallowing abuse just to not be alone.

I read a rather funny and silly book that actually made quite the impact on me--called "he's just not that into you" (the book, not the movie--which was quite different than the book). You might give it a read!

It's so obvious that this isn't going to work now you phrase it like that. Thank you! And welcome to the club. 

Lifewriter x

[heartandwhole]

Hi P&C,

I'm sorry to hear about your sister's illness.  Is she comfortable and in a good facility? How long has this been going on, and how are you coping? I'm sorry if I've missed you mentioning this in another post.

I can very much relate to your feelings about having mined the treasures of being alone. I, too, have had very long stretches of no romantic relationship (right now being one of them). Being your age, I also wonder if I will ever have a true partner-type romantic relationship. I sometimes worry about being alone the rest of my life. I don't, however, long for the feelings that I had with pwBPD. However magical the they seemed and however close and respectful and loving we were to each other, there was too much—too much intensity, too much fantasy, too much negotiation, too much changeability, too much walking on eggshells. Not realistic, not sustainable. I don't want intense anymore, I want real. Maybe because then I'll feel safer, I'm not sure.

I wonder if your boundaries are/were similar to mine in that I created a kind of wall, instead of a breathing membrane, if that makes sense. I talked at length about this with my therapist, and we came to the conclusion that I was trying to protect myself instead of simply being grounded in my values. I think there's a difference. What I understood from my T's description is that a boundary is something that isn't created out of fear (like my protective wall), but is simply a loving expression of self-worth. It's intention isn't to separate us from others or our feelings or their actions, it simply expresses who we are (and are actions then reflect that, which might include separating from the person, of course). I think for many of us, slippery boundaries in childhood make this a very challenging exercise. I also think I waited too long to express my values and who I was, or just overrode my values for fear of loss, so that ultimately it almost had to be a "wall" that came up to protect me from the now accelerated behavior.

Does any of that resonate?

Like I said, if I were younger, it would feel good I think. But as it is, it comes along with what seems like an awful penalty: deep loneliness. I feel the consequence of my own boundaries may be too heavy a price.

Are you predicting the future, P&C? I know all about statistics for women our age, etc. AND there is no way of knowing that a wonderful relationship (where your needs are taken into account as much as his) is not just around the corner. Or a year from now, or 5 years from now. I see it all the time.   

Which is not about the boundaries per se. It's about what happened as a result.

And that's why you are not with your partner. Because your boundaries were fine and reasonable and expressed what YOU need and want in a relationship. Unfortunately, he wasn't willing to honor them. How would you feel about yourself if you threw away what really matters to you in order to avoid being alone?

heartandwhole 

[patientandclear]

My calculation was that being alone was better than being abused. It took some time to come to that realization and accept it.

I arrived at that position when I ended my 14 year abusive marriage.  Was alone then for 5 years.  Then BPDex came along and it was the first intimate connection in so long that felt worth the risk, worth the effort to make myself deeply known to another person.  Either I no longer lightly engage men like that or there is no one available with whom I resonate or both; and yes, some of it was mirroring and his effort to form that bond somewhat artificially.  Still.  It was not a small thing to gain and then lose again.

Really? How is making conditions he can't deal with in my best interest?

If you don't have or didn't have the boundaries, how is the result in your best interest? Is there a third option?

Part of the answer to this is my endless self-castigation that I didn't better articulate my boundaries or what I was trying to get across to my ex when I needed to change our terms.  The third way would be being better at communication with him.  Applying boundaries even more like a membrane and less like a wall, as Heartandwhole lays out just above.

Part of the answer is the premise of my initial post: I'm wondering if it would have been better to compromise on these values rather than lose this person.  Given that those turn out to be the choices (which I had an inkling of but wasn't sure of each time I articulated my position, of course).

But then there's what Narkiss and HurtinNW are saying, about what it does to you to make that kind of compromise -- where you can't say what you want or feel because the consequences will be total destruction.  What is really left?  How valuable is this r/ship than once felt so meaningful and close?  These are good questions.  Narkiss, I really appreciate your point about it feeling like a transaction.  So insightful.  That makes sense.   

And Hurt, your point about feeling jealous or sad to see others here have good experiences with boundaries ... .yes, exactly.  The message I've taken away from my own experience is that when I apply boundaries, I lose the relationship.  I think we are supposed to get a different lesson -- that mostly, when we apply boundaries, things get better.  But perhaps you are right, that with some of these BPD partners (often men it seems), that just isn't the case.  There is so much destruction as a result of the boundaries, however lovingly formed and conveyed, that it really is an either-or.

Again as noted above ... .and as you recounted Hurt ... .I do get stuck wondering whether this conundrum is due to my lack of skill, and being fear-based.  Like Heartandwhole said, having boundaries like a wall not like a membrane.

Though ... .most of the time I was like a membrane not a wall.  The wall happened when I felt so painted into a corner I couldn't figure out how to go forward without sending him the message that it was all right to behave terribly.  He loves, craves ambiguity.  Boundaries like a membrane unfortunately can easily be perceived by him as non-existent.  In the last round of contact we had, I kept saying I didn't want to email.  We could write letters, see each other in person -- have meaningful contacct -- but I needed an arrangement that didn't feel like I was his de facto partner, if he wasn't going to give me that status and acknowledgement, and was going to pursue other women.  He kept emailing.  I would write back "I want to avoid email."  He would reply "oh, I forgot you didn't want to email."  And then proceed to write, in email ... ."while we're here."  Seriously. Repeatedly.  So the membrane felt like a line I had to constantly defend, and by participating in that, it felt like I was colluding with his "confusion" and suggesting that it was worth his while to keep this up.

When I think of how he went out of his way NOT to hear and understand my minimal requirements for carrying on an intimate friendship while respecting his autonomy to pursue other women and not acknowledge the status of our thing ... .I see someone who had a need or desire not to hear me.  Not to work with me.  To push to the point where I either had to give up my line, which I think was the goal (because it would make him feel worthwhile?) or the thing would break and he could then denounce me in his mind.

That is pretty barren ground for a meaningful relationship, I can see as I type those words.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi heartandwhole,

I wonder if your boundaries are/were similar to mine in that I created a kind of wall, instead of a breathing membrane, if that makes sense. I talked at length about this with my therapist, and we came to the conclusion that I was trying to protect myself instead of simply being grounded in my values. I think there's a difference. What I understood from my T's description is that a boundary is something that isn't created out of fear (like my protective wall), but is simply a loving expression of self-worth. It's intention isn't to separate us from others or our feelings or their actions, it simply expresses who we are (and are actions then reflect that, which might include separating from the person, of course). I think for many of us, slippery boundaries in childhood make this a very challenging exercise. I also think I waited too long to express my values and who I was, or just overrode my values for fear of loss, so that ultimately it almost had to be a "wall" that came up to protect me from the now accelerated behavior.

Does any of that resonate?

It resonates with me. I knew I was trying to protect myself from my BPDxbf, trying to stop his rages, his verbal abuse and his threats to cancel dates or dump me and his ending the relationship. I tried to limit text contact to take away the opportunities he used to do such things. It was impossible to have a relationship within those restrictions. I could see it. He could see it. The question is why was I even trying to have a relationship with someone I had to protect myself from?

Lifewriter x

[HurtinNW]

I am still unclear on that boundaries question, especially with partners who don't seem to listen, hear, remember, or those who rewrite history, as my ex. How do boundaries work when your partner truly doesn't seem to hear what you say, as PC says above? My ex is a very selective listener. He will elicit advice and support from friends and family, and ignore that parts he doesn't like. It isn't just ignoring: he will truly not remember them. Same with episodes of abuse. He denies many of them happened.

In my situation I think I set a loving boundary: I gently told my ex he couldn't move in with me and my kids. For years that was what I wanted, but after years of abuse, recycling, his unemployment, anger and the fact he was doing it for financial reasons, I knew it would have not been healthy. Within a week he found reason to rage and break up with me, again.

I didn't feel my boundary was a wall. I was acting from a place of not putting myself or my kids into a situation with him that would have been very unpleasant, out of my own values and self worth. It was a membrane in it still allowed contact. But I can also see that since I had recently made another boundary of refusing, kindly, to not leave work to go to his house for sex, for similar reasons, that he probably perceived this as judgement. Due to his behaviors, the ways we could have a relationship were more limited.

Which leads to another question: at some point there are natural consequences to behaviors. I had to protect myself from behaviors that felt exploitative, wrong or hurtful by setting boundaries to protect myself, and yet those reduced the relationship, putting it on a starvation diet. I wonder about this in boundaries. Like if your partner is explosive in the car, the idea is not to get into a car with them. If they explode at home, you leave. Or in my case you don't let them move in. But if you do this enough pretty soon there is not a relationship left to negotiate.

Does that make sense?

By being the one who set the boundaries, no matter how kindly, I wrestle with feeling that I was the one who somehow destroyed things. That if I had supported him moving in we would be on a better path. I know intellectually the chance of that is very, very low. I would right now have him probably not even close to moving in, a state of chaos, and given his cycle, he would have probably broken up with me again at least twice in the last two months, and this very moment I would be in a state of dread, turmoil, hurt and high anxiety. But there is an emotional part that really wrestles with feeling I was the one who killed the relationship by acting on my own needs and wants.

[Lifewriter16]

Which leads to another question: at some point there are natural consequences to behaviors. I had to protect myself from behaviors that felt exploitative, wrong or hurtful by setting boundaries to protect myself, and yet those reduced the relationship, putting it on a starvation diet. I wonder about this in boundaries. Like if your partner is explosive in the car, the idea is not to get into a car with them. If they explode at home, you leave. Or in my case you don't let them move in. But if you do this enough pretty soon there is not a relationship left to negotiate.

Does that make sense?

By being the one who set the boundaries, no matter how kindly, I wrestle with feeling that I was the one who somehow destroyed things. That if I had supported him moving in we would be on a better path. I know intellectually the chance of that is very, very low. I would right now have him probably not even close to moving in, a state of chaos, and given his cycle, he would have probably broken up with me again at least twice in the last two months, and this very moment I would be in a state of dread, turmoil, hurt and high anxiety. But there is an emotional part that really wrestles with feeling I was the one who killed the relationship by acting on my own needs and wants.

Yes, that makes sense to me and I feel exactly the same.

Love Lifewriter x

[gotbushels]

P&C:) I appreciated reading your latest post. I'm not part of your club but I can very much relate to feeling of uncertainty that comes from the difficult decision of choosing. I can also relate to the feeling of uncertainty when we don't know if we did boundaries "right". Is it lack of skill or do I have too much fear (and shooting myself in the foot)?

You mentioned:

And Hurt, your point about feeling jealous or sad to see others here have good experiences with boundaries ... .yes, exactly.  The message I've taken away from my own experience is that when I apply boundaries, I lose the relationship.  I think we are supposed to get a different lesson -- that mostly, when we apply boundaries, things get better.  But perhaps you are right, that with some of these BPD partners (often men it seems), that just isn't the case.  There is so much destruction as a result of the boundaries, however lovingly formed and conveyed, that it really is an either-or.

From what I understand, at the outset, I think it I might help to revisit the ideas of boundaries.

It might help when you step back from your relationship and refocus to see that you're still dealing with a BPD. I remember there was an author that talked about boundary setting like ticks and a host. I think of it as: validation is like coaxing the tick to stop biting you, boundary-enforcement is like telling it to drink water instead of blood. Which is more difficult? If the tick has spent 40 years drinking blood, who are you to tell it to drink water?

Therefore, boundaries don't always work. They are sometimes really hard. As a substantiation of the difficulty:

• (1) I'm quite sure one of the popular family BPD books has a flashcard set for it.



• (2) Mason Kreger's SWOE's boundary section is almost immediately (?) followed by several sets of counter-retaliation plans and a section about handling violence and police.

Sometimes, it's supposed to be really hard. Restraining-order hard. Boy, that tick is thirsty for blood! Imagine what it will do! Sometimes, it's supposed to take purposeful and deliberate planning. Sometimes, it will take a really long time. Sometimes, the BP may never "get it" but do the behaviour you want anyway, and ends up continuously coming back to "why do I have to do this again" or "oh I forgot, anyway, while we're here... ."

BTW after my very deliberate attempt at several limits; the reaction by my ex was for her to find someone to go have intercourse with. I cut off her blood supply all at once so I guess I "deserved" that

[doubleAries]

oohhhhh... .here's a trap I fall into as well.

I am still unclear on that boundaries question, especially with partners who don't seem to listen, hear, remember, or those who rewrite history, as my ex. How do boundaries work when your partner truly doesn't seem to hear what you say, as PC says above? My ex is a very selective listener. He will elicit advice and support from friends and family, and ignore that parts he doesn't like. It isn't just ignoring: he will truly not remember them. Same with episodes of abuse. He denies many of them happened.

My ex does the same thing. However, boundaries are NOT to change THEIR behavior. Boundaries are to protect yourself from their behavior. When we keep applying it to THEM and THEIR behavior, yes--it becomes unclear. Simplistic example: we decide we want to be treated better (and we do need to be more specific than "better". So we announce "this is how I want to be treated!" Ok, so far so good. But is this a declaration for ourselves, and a vow that we won't rationalize/accept treatment below these standards, or is it an ultimatum for the other person (who we cannot control)?

When someone continues to treat us poorly, do we walk away and accept (not to be confused with approval) that they cannot or will not treat us respectfully; or do we stay and continue to try to find ways to make our demands/ultimatums work this time? Do we weigh the care and respect the person has for us against the hurt they cause (and whether the hurt was intentional or continuously oblivious, or whether we have hid our weak points and they had no way of knowing) and eventually say this is too lopsided; or do we say "THAT'S IT! I'm only going to give you 800 more tries to act the way I want you to!"

Do we reject and rationalize our own needs and wants as being not that important in the "bigger picture" (which sometimes includes our belief that if someone else loves us then that proves we are lovable), or do we go to the other extreme and demand that they put our wants and needs before even themselves? Maybe vacillate between these extremes? Sure--we all do that sometimes. But that's not what boundaries are. (Whichever) other extreme is not a "boundary".


When we set appropriate boundaries, and there is nothing left of the relationship--that should tell us something. And NOT that we are too demanding, too needy, too selfish. If we have to denounce ourselves, our needs, our safety to be in a relationship with someone, then it isn't a healthy relationship.  

[Herodias]

I believe the boundaries are for us... .yes. Unfortunately I think the only way to deal with them is to walk away. There is a woman on u-tube that claims she deals with her husband by treating him like one of the kids and that works for them. He says he accepts it, because he wants his family. I don't know if that really would work for other people, but I guess if it works for them then good. If I had boundaries in the beginning I would have walked away from the beginning. Trying to have boundaries was impossible once I was in the marriage. He did what he wanted, when he wanted. If I put up a boundary I was fought- tooth and nail... .I don't think there was anything left to do but leave.You tell someone you will not accept cheating and they go out and cheat-that's it, right?  Boundaries start for us NOW... .so we don't do what we did before. Funny, talking about age here... .you know how we used to think older people were crotchety and stuck in their ways... ? Well, maybe this is why... .!

[Grey Kitty]

This might have been all well and good in my 20s or 30s. But I'm 50. I'm a woman, and someone with considerable power and authority in my sector, which men seem to find distinctly unsexy.

Perhaps I'm weird, but I don't find any of those characteristics you list to be unsexy. I'm a guy in my late 40s. I'll admit that younger can be sexy too, but I know of plenty of women who are sexy at your age.

My boundaries and I are staring at a pretty stark, lonely existence.

I'm going to call BS on that conclusion. That you are lonely because you now have good boundaries.

You could just as easily say you are lonely now because you used to have bad boundaries, and you picked guys who were unsuitable for healthy relationships to get involved with, and stuck with them 'till now.

And the counter-example... .I've got a dear and deeply trusted friend who is a bit older than you, and due to some chronic illnesses, is physically aged beyond her years. (Rather than being high-powered in her field, she is living on a limited disability income) She ended a marriage to an alcoholic about five years ago. I think it was her second bad marriage. (Not-perhaps-too-much-coincidentally, her mother has BPD)... .and she finally sorted through HER issues in the past few years. Even with some very real physical limitations, her life is soo much better than she ever imagined it could be, especially in terms of sex and relationship today. She's just blown away with how wonderful things are for her now.

And I'm pretty sure that she only found good boundaries in the last few years herself!



P&C, I think you would do better to just acknowledge that you do feel lonely without a partner right now, you do miss your pwBPD, and especially what you thought/hoped he was, and let yourself feel that... .instead trying to find something to blame that feeling on.

 Feeling that is tough.

[patientandclear]

P&C, I think you would do better to just acknowledge that you do feel lonely without a partner right now, you do miss your pwBPD, and especially what you thought/hoped he was, and let yourself feel that... .instead trying to find something to blame that feeling on.

I am actually asking a more uncomfortable question, which is -- was it worth it to defend these boundaries?  This much loneliness really might be too much.  (Not that I have a choice at this point.  And not that I disagree with many of the "club members'" posts above about the price of staying engaged.)

[flourdust]

This might have been all well and good in my 20s or 30s. But I'm 50. I'm a woman, and someone with considerable power and authority in my sector, which men seem to find distinctly unsexy.

Perhaps I'm weird, but I don't find any of those characteristics you list to be unsexy. I'm a guy in my late 40s. I'll admit that younger can be sexy too, but I know of plenty of women who are sexy at your age.

Same here. One thing that attracted me to my wife was that she seemed confident, self-assured, positive, and independent. Unfortunately, those were a facade.

My boundaries and I are staring at a pretty stark, lonely existence.

P&C, I think you would do better to just acknowledge that you do feel lonely without a partner right now, you do miss your pwBPD, and especially what you thought/hoped he was, and let yourself feel that... .instead trying to find something to blame that feeling on.

Agree with that, too. I'm separated and preparing to file for divorce. My wife hated the boundaries I began to enforce last summer -- which were "I won't be screamed at" and "I won't be called names." Nobody is going to call those silly preferences or things I should have really been more flexible about.

Having her out of the house hasn't been lonely at all -- it's been wonderful. I'm not just living without her. I'm living without:

• that constant knot of tension in my belly



• the brooding presence in the house that I have to tiptoe around for fear I might set it off



• the sense of relief when she goes to sleep and I have the house to myself



• the dread of what drama will be waiting for me when I go home, so I make up excuses to dawdle at work



• the endless chores that she adds to by not doing any housework



• the feeling of being trapped and unable to do anything I want

I have my daughter in the house, so I'm not exactly alone. On nights when she's with her mom, though, if I feel a little bored or lonely -- I can go out! By myself or with a friend! I don't need to ask her permission, and when I'm out, I don't need to worry that if I don't get back home soon, she'll be angry. I can enjoy experiencing things without this constant dark cloud on the horizon.

Living alone is SO much better than living with fear.

[HurtinNW]

 

You could just as easily say you are lonely now because you used to have bad boundaries, and you picked guys who were unsuitable for healthy relationships to get involved with, and stuck with them 'till now.

I need to confront this is very true for me. In fact during the last four years of trauma and chaos, I had a really nice guy express a lot of interest in me. During times ex would break up with me he would court me, and was just a really lovely man. He was ideal for me in so many ways. But I couldn't think of him that way. I kept going back to ex. Now I am alone and that lovely man has since found a lovely lady, and they are very happy. I am happy for him too, genuinely. But I can see I missed a great opportunity.

In looking back I've missed a lot of opportunities for great partners because I was either stuck in an unsatisfying relationship or interested in the wrong guys. Now I do have regrets.

I need to examine why I tend to go for immature men, and why I feel intimidated or disinterested in "normal" guys.