got the court order

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I just got a court order from our hearing in March. The judge state's that he has serious concerns about ex's mental health. He has ordered unsupervised visitation 2 times a week for 3 hours as the parties agree. And a full day hearing in August. That's it. He obviously isnt aware that ex hasnt seen daughter in months or all the new crap he has pulled. I cant imagine handing her over for 3 hours. She is going to freak out.  I am just speechless.

[rarsweet]

I just got a court order from our hearing in March. The judge state's that he has serious concerns about ex's mental health. He has ordered unsupervised visitation 2 times a week for 3 hours as the parties agree. And a full day hearing in August. That's it. He obviously isnt aware that ex hasnt seen daughter in months or all the new crap he has pulled. I cant imagine handing her over for 3 hours. She is going to freak out.  I am just speechless.

[rarsweet]

And he cannot leave the state with her for any purpose... .

[Turkish]

Are there stated consequences if he violates the time, say?

This is an extremely tough situation to be in. I know you can't stand him, but is it possible to work with him to transition him spending time alone with her?

[rarsweet]

It simply says that I decide the day and time. There are no consequences listed for anything. It says "The court has concerns for ex's mental health. Ex has not been able to find or maintain employment or stable housing for himself or daughter. The court finds that residential responsibility shall remain with mother. Father is allowed unsupervised visits 2 times a week for 3 hours as mother agrees. Mother offered to supervise visits herself but the court deems their relationship is too volatile. Father is not to leave the state with daughter at any time for any purpose." Court again in August. No support order.

[rarsweet]

He is going to have to agree to exchanges with my mom. I simply work such hours that I won't be able to unless it's late at night. I don't think he will agree to that, my mom is on his s***list now.

[Turkish]

"as mother agrees."

"As" isn't "if" but it would be nice if it were explained better.

[GaGrl]

So is this a temp order until August?

[rarsweet]

Yes a temp order.

[Nope]

If it's three hours I'd set up exchange at a mall or playground. That way it's likely he'll stay close by with her since he only has three hours.

[ForeverDad]

That phrase "as mother agrees"... .was that what you suggested in your filing?  If it wasn't then that may indicate you have some flexibility.  For example, if you have concerns about her safety when exchanging you could decide to reschedule on the spot.  Since the order is not very specific, you are free to use your discretion.  And as you've now learned, don't fret if he chooses not to take the time you have scheduled.  If he doesn't take his time then it's on him, not you.

Also, always have your order with you, keep a copy or two in your car at all times in case the police appear and there's a dispute about the parental schedule.  I found out I could never have enough copies, because the only time I might have needed it is when I left it behind.

Hmm, one more thought... .Would it be a good idea to restart exchanges at the police station or sheriff's office, seeing the officers there may remind him to behave himself better with her?

[rarsweet]

I asked for supervised visitation. My language was by someone either the court or I approved of. Not at a supervision facility. Atleast not when I files back in February. Tomorrow I am buying a video recorder my mother or I can use of exchanges happen at my house.I figure I may let the ball be in his court with the exchange site. He doesnt like being out in public so I think he will suggest my house. This would also give him an opportunity to make up more lies. Which I would actually welcome since reality would be recorded. Weird thing is that I emailed him asking what he suggested for times to see daughter... He hasn't responded. I also went by his dads house 2 nights in a row and I have some friends who are convienently headed home that way. His truck hasn't been there for a few days. He hasn't gone to my work for coffee either. I am thinking he took off again since the investigator is looking for him now. Or it's been repossessed already.

[Turkish]

Ball's in his court. I wouldn't contact him again about visitation. The longer he waits, the worse it looks to him come the next court date.

The history indicates that you've tried to make him a father in your daughter's life. The ball really is in his court now. Leave it there. His move.

[ForeverDad]

Ball's in his court. I wouldn't contact him again about visitation. The longer he waits, the worse it looks to him come the next court date.

The history indicates that you've tried to make him a father in your daughter's life. The ball really is in his court now. Leave it there. His move.

Double ditto!  You reached out.  You did your due diligence.  Presumably (though not your concern) he was sent his copy of the order.  That is, in effect, double notification.  So beware of trying again and again.  You don't need to.  You need to resist the natural tendency of us Nice Guys and Nice Gals to be too fair, to our detriment.  No need to make it easier for him to sabotage you.

[rarsweet]

Its been 5 days since we got the order. That day I emailed him and asked him if he had any suggestions for times for visitation. I really want to just see what he would suggest before I made mybsuggestion. His response was "same as always for daughter to see her daddy. You keeping her from me is disgusting". I responded back and simply repeated my first question and said that my mother would probably have to do some exchanges as I have jobs. He hasn't responded at all. You would think after 3 months of not seeing his daughter he would be prompt about setting up a visit. Nope nothing for 5 days.

[Nope]

Just keep doing what you are doing. It could be that he is too I'll to handle any sort of planning and can't find solutions and he is expecting you to solve the problem for him by bending over backwards. Either he'll figure it out of he won't. If he doesn't and he goes back to court saying he never saw her then simply ask him to produce any evidence that he made an attempt and was blocked.

[rarsweet]

Still nothing from him.

[Turkish]

Wonderful dad. The longer it goes, the more he's sabotaged himself.

[rarsweet]

I do have an appointment with child support enforcement on Tuesday. I am not sure if they can do anything since the judge hasnt made any order about child support. Guess I will find out. I do know he is scrambling to hide his truck so it doesnt get repossessed. Hiding it at different places every day. He hasn't come into my work while I am there. He did go in the other day, paid for coffee with change and then told my coworker he wanted a reciept. Weird, who wants a reciept for $1 in change. Swear he's keeping track of where he goes for some reason?

[Turkish]

Maybe he has a side business and he's expensing meals to claim on his taxes. 

[livednlearned]

Am I missing something?

Father is allowed unsupervised visits 2 times a week for 3 hours as mother agrees.

That sounds a whole lot like you just got a free pass to do whatever you like. As mother agrees.

Court spared you the headache of supervised visits. Court said you get to agree or not.

Sounds to me like court is treating you like a responsible, credible grown up.

[rarsweet]

I still have not heard from him. I think he is more concerned about hiding his truck so it doesn't get repo'ed than attempting to see his daughter. We don't have court again until August. What do I do if he doesn't attempt to see her or even communicate and then out of the blue he wants to see her? His birthday is next week, then father's day, then her birthday is in July. What if he suddenly reaches out around those important days and demands to see her? Or what if it's 2 weeks before court.

[livednlearned]

You give him very clear boundaries and tell him he needs to meet whatever reasonable basic conditions you set. Like telling you he has to agree to having the exchange take place with your mom, etc.

It won't matter what the conditions are. The point is that he cannot regulate himself enough to handle his own needs much less his daughter.'s. He can't tolerate you being in a parent role to him because you are no longer rarsweet and instead represent whatever unresolved trauma he has from whomever or whatever happened long before he met you. This is a script, a very ill one, and once you realize the extent to which you are a footnote in his psychic drama, you will free yourself from handwringing. court has given you as much authority as possible without breaking its own rules so now  the test is whether you can detach from him enough to act assertively like the good mama you are.

You have the upper hand here.  He cannot handle the responsibility of caring for the needs of someone else, especially a child. He is a child himself, struggling to be parented properly if only he can find someone to be that person, while at the same time sabotaging any attempts to be helped by anyone who might try.

[rarsweet]

Many times I have felt like I was expected to mother him in order for him to father our daughter. I feel like the court system expects me to give 150% while dealing with disorder and abuse in order for him to give 10%. It sucks. I see that I tend to take on the nurturing role way too much. It has been very hard not to email him and ask him what the heck is going on. Since I emailed him the night we got the order it has been nothing from him. My instinct is to email again to reach out. My brain tells me to leave it alone. Everyone here is right, it's not my job to figure out his life for him.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Just throwing out an idea for when and if dad takes your daughter for 3 hours.  How about getting a GPS device, perhaps one that looks like a watch or bracelet that your daughter can wear. (there are specific devices for children).  If you daughter is old enough for and had a phone, then there are app options for tracking via a phone.  It wouldn't solve all concerns, but at least you you know the precise location of where they are and if you need to call police, you have a location to send them to.

[livednlearned]

Many times I have felt like I was expected to mother him in order for him to father our daughter.

BPD is fundamentally a belief system in which close others become stand-ins for the original abusive parent (real or imagined). You could do everything right and he would still feel persecuted or blamed because this is his core wound to resolve. It is his script and you are an actor in it, so is his daughter. Right now she is too young for him to react psychologically to, so she is probably an extension of his psychodynamics with you and the belief system in which you function for him.

He's really ill. Maybe you had a lot of experience with dysfunctional relationships in your own life and so part of you understands this, while another part thinks maybe it's not all that bad. It is that bad. You asked for supervised visitation because you know this, and the court for whatever reason (confidence in you, perhaps) decided that you are just as capable of enforcing decisions as a bunch of strangers practicing law.

It seems like this hearing/ruling is uncomfortable for you, not because they gave you a favorable ruling, but because they put a degree of authority on your shoulders. That means you are left to make healthy decisions solely on your own.

This can be unnerving for those of us who were wounded enough to hitch our train to someone with a severely flawed belief system and whatever other mentally ill diagnoses they may have on top of everything else. We may not trust ourselves to make the healthiest decisions, we want court to help us.

What helped me to get out of the victim role (it is a way to stay stuck) was therapy with a good T and branching out on these boards to understand the healthy skills. Detaching and grieving and dealing with the family law system is helpful for a while. Eventually, it is hoped that we shift perspectives to our own role in these dynamics so that we can resolve them. For one, recognizing that just because a parent or partner cannot love us does not mean we are not lovable. We are. You are. I am. I gave that gift to myself and no longer need confirmation from someone else that I am worthy. And surprise, this is the exact moment when I met someone who treated me with the love and respect I finally discovered I deserved.

You will too.

Once this happens, you will have closed a loop on your healing and can raise your D to reap the benefits because you have given her the gift of your own example. You will feel sad about your ex, and at the same time very certain about whether he is psychologically competent enough to care for your D. If so, you will have the emotional and psychological skills to give your D when she interacts with him, and she will take these skills with her through life and pick people who treat her well.

I would not have known what to do with the court authority given to you during the same point in our respective divorces. It took me many years to recognize and fully believe that court was my ally, and that I really did know better than court what was best for my son.

My advice to you is to stop trying to parent him. Let him step forward if he wants to be in her life (he may be too ill), and when he does, put conditions on the visit that maximize her safety. He will consistently fail to show up and act like an adult (he is not one) throughout her life, and this will create a different kind of grief for your D. So best to get this worked out now while she's young.

[Sunfl0wer]

It seems like this hearing/ruling is uncomfortable for you, not because they gave you a favorable ruling, but because they put a degree of authority on your shoulders. That means you are left to make healthy decisions solely on your own.

I have seen a lot of this in threads of yours I have passed by.

You do seem to be wanting to share parenting responsibility, and it seems to be a strong force for you, at least my perspective.

I wonder if this is a frustration of every single parent.  Idk.  I do know that I certainly have always felt like being 100% responsible and liable for another human being/my son was more responsibility than anyone on this planet should ever give another person.

In case it offers hope/relief:

-None of us are perfect parents, we all just do our best.

-A friend once told me not to worry if I felt I cannot be the best parent I want, that all good parents worry about this, that they do not need a perfect parent, but "good enough" parent.  And that as I sat with fears of raising a 5yr old while my son was 2, she lightly said it was ok, because I would "grow with him" and it would come as we go.  So I was relieved because I felt ill prepared and had no parental experiences to draw from.

-As my son aged, I sought relief from this angst through choosing an excellent preschool or enrolling him in martial arts or such and embracing the phrase that "it takes a villiage."  I relieved myself from the concept that all of who he is to become is simply just ME... .but can also be many experiences he has in life.

I may be way off, idk... .But I felt like risking and sharing that.

[gary seven]

The judge state's that he has serious concerns about ex's mental health...

Sunflower-- did your lawyers actually use the terms borderline  or rather did they suggest a pattern of aberrant behaviors that make his mental health come into question.

Did you experience a lot of retaliation?  Did he did up skeletons from your past to try and say YOU were the unstable one?

G7

[ForeverDad]

I see that I tend to take on the nurturing role way too much. It has been very hard not to email him and ask him what the heck is going on. Since I emailed him the night we got the order it has been nothing from him. My instinct is to email again to reach out. My brain tells me to leave it alone. Everyone here is right, it's not my job to figure out his life for him.

Ponder this insight... .You are one of many here who have a wide range of good instincts and personalities.  We want to reach out and help.  We are more than willing to listen and accommodate.  We want to go the extra mile and then some.  We would rather share and listen than control and require.  But... .those otherwise good qualities are a distinct disadvantage when dealing with acting-out mental illnesses or imbalances.  This is where setting good firm boundaries are so essential.  We're not mean, we're setting limits where the other can't or won't.  Taking a measure of control, when necessary, is appropriate.

Over time you will grow more comfortable — or rather, less uncomfortable — in this necessary role.  Already you have made progress.  Before, your boundaries would have crumbled by now and you'd be right back at the beginning, powerless, perplexed and questioning yourself. Right?  You have made progress.   Continue on this path.

[rarsweet]

Still nothing from him. Apparently I was wrong though, my landlords saw him working at the same place my old boss did, with their logo vest on. So definately employed now, although he hasn't reported it. So Child Support Enforcement can deal with him.

[rarsweet]

Still no word from him.