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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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joeramabeme
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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2016, 05:25:33 PM »

JRB, I'm a 48 year-old woman with older kids, and trust me, there are plenty of us who would love to date a man who wants a family. I would totally put it on a dating profile. Just say you love kids and would be more than happy to date a single mom. They'll probably come out of the woodwork!

Thanks Hurtin, that sounds like a pretty nice way to say that without giving off a wary vibe to others.

Since I have your attention, is it a plus or minus that I am alienated from my FOO? I could see this being a plus and/or minus for others.  Don't want to hijack this thread, but just curious to get your perspective.

Meili, I have a neighbor who is 61 with 7 year old triplets!  WOW!  There is having a hope for a family and then there is crazy! 

Thanks both, I have really needed something to pick my spirits up as I keep my life on track as a responsible guy trying to meet someone with family potential versus living like a reckless single.

Cheers
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HurtinNW
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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2016, 07:41:39 PM »

JRB, I'm a 48 year-old woman with older kids, and trust me, there are plenty of us who would love to date a man who wants a family. I would totally put it on a dating profile. Just say you love kids and would be more than happy to date a single mom. They'll probably come out of the woodwork!

Thanks Hurtin, that sounds like a pretty nice way to say that without giving off a wary vibe to others.

Since I have your attention, is it a plus or minus that I am alienated from my FOO? I could see this being a plus and/or minus for others.  Don't want to hijack this thread, but just curious to get your perspective.

Meili, I have a neighbor who is 61 with 7 year old triplets!  WOW!  There is having a hope for a family and then there is crazy! 

Thanks both, I have really needed something to pick my spirits up as I keep my life on track as a responsible guy trying to meet someone with family potential versus living like a reckless single.

Cheers

Well I am alienated from my FOO so I know I wouldn't judge. I get really irritated when people use that as a yardstick of emotional health. I mean, would it be healthier to have toxic, abusive people in your life? Heck no.

I think it is all in how you frame it, and if you are feeling good or okay about yourself, you can find ways to present it that way.

On the kid issue, I'd suggest framing it from a positive place like, "At this point in my life I would welcome the chance to have a family. I've always loved children, and think I'm pretty darn good with them! So if you are a single mom please don't hesitate to say hello!"

On the FOO issue, I wouldn't put it in an add. But when and if it comes up, I'd suggest framing it like, "Sometimes in life you have to make hard choices, in order to do the right thing. Unfortunately my family isn't healthy at all. I had to give them distance to give myself a happy, healthy life, and that way I can share it with someone else."

I consider both of these things as strengths for you!

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Meili
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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2016, 11:15:29 PM »

Good suggestions Hurtin!
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Meili
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2016, 11:32:29 AM »

A letter that I wish that I could send, but know that I shouldn't and won't... .

Hey you!

I wanted to write to you because I hate how things were left.

At the end, I was so engulfed in anger about all that had transpired between us and my need to protect both you and I from further damage that ceasing all contact seemed to only way to I could deal with the situation. I agreed with what <our couples counselor.>had told us over and over, we needed to stop and allow ourselves to heal.

By stopping and providing myself time and space to breath, I have been able to start to think more clearly. The anger I was feeling has subsided. I am now in a much better position to actually think about everything that we experienced. I greatly miss much of what we shared. I hope to never have to experience other parts again however.

In my mind, what happened was that, because of experiences when I was young, things that you said to me triggered my fears of rejection and abandonment. Not wholly understanding what was going on, I tried to convey how I felt to you in the only way that I had available to me at the time. When I saw the same types of events being repeated, my fear and pain grew. That lead to the February breakup. I was just so hurt and scared that I felt the only thing that I felt that I could do was run. It seems to me that this sparked your fears about abandonment and rejection, and that’s when things took a drastic turn for our relationship.

From that point forward, everything changed. I heard you say, many times, that when I tried to run away that time, everything had changed for you. That change affected us both. I was left constantly worried, wondering, and desperately trying to bring things back to what they had been. It seemed to me that you started to really try feel truly loved by me, but were always afraid that I would end things between us again. At the same time, I was worried about being rejected and abandoned. Thus began our cycle into oblivion.

From there, again, it seems to me, that we both began to allow our fears to control our actions. We were both so worried about being rejected and abandoned that at some point we went into survival mode and were just trying to survive. We were both questioning the love the other said that they felt and began to test the same. This left the other both of us feeling more threatened, and we sank deeper into crisis. I would also postulate that each of us became so defensive that we were sure that our reality…our truth was the one that was correct. But, the thing is, that, based on my observations and my internal thoughts, that we had fallen so far into the abyss that neither one of us was really listening to the other at that point. How could we when we so focused on protecting ourselves? It also occurs to me that because we were each so focused on survival and self-preservation that we both became completely defensive and took the words and actions of the other in the worst possible light.

At some point, this position became unsustainable to me. I could no longer weather the pain and torment that was raging inside of me. I no longer liked who I was, or what I was becoming. The stress and anxiety melded into anger and defensiveness. I was so engulfed in trying to remain sane, recapture the happy times, and get away from the feelings of anger, anxiety, fear, sadness, and stress that I was willing to do anything at any cost. As I told you so many times, I was willing to fight anything for you and our relationship, but the one thing that I could not fight was you. That’s where I thought that I was that last time that I saw you. I was fighting you. That was a battle that I could not win and one that would only devastate both of us if I persisted. So, I walked away.

I make these observations about your side of things based on what I experienced and what you’ve told me in the past. You have said that you trust completely and then start to distrust the person that you are with as the relationship becomes more intimate and progresses. I suspect that is why you, as you have also told me, only like relationships when they are new. I have combined those two statements with your actions, your pulling away further, each time that I would reject how you had treated me. Another factor that has been included in my presumptions was that I perceived that the deeper we slid into despair, the harder you pressed for reassurance that I was devoted to you I all ways.

Because I have been able to step back for the past few weeks and look at my own actions in all of this, I can easily see some of the things that you told me. I can clearly see why you felt abused. My need for self-preservation had reached a point where I was being reactive and I stopped thinking clearly. I can see how confusing it must have been for you when you would try to talk to me and I would get extremely defensive and angry, but would then turn around within a few minutes and try to calmly remind you how much you mean to me and that I love you completely. I can see that you must have all but begging me for reassurance that my love was real and that I wouldn’t bolt again at the first sign of despair. It must have been just as horrible for you as it was for me; living in constant fear of abandonment and rejection.

Since we have separated, I have started counseling for my complex PTSD and other issues. While I’m only scratching the surface, I have a much clearer understanding of the impact that fears have on my relationships. As a result, I am trying to acknowledge my part in our downward spiral. I know that I can never make amends with you for the way that I acted, but I wanted to let you know that I have at least some understanding of what I did and compassion for you and the fears that you felt as a result.

I am deeply sorry for my part in our turmoil. I would have chosen a different had I had the tools and resources available to me to do so. The simple fact is that I didn’t. I was so fearful that I was stuck in crisis and fighting as hard as I could just to survive.

I truly hope that you are doing well and find the safe place for which you appear to be looking. If I am wrong about all of this, I apologize for making presumptions. I am working hard on understanding myself and my impact on others.

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joeramabeme
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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2016, 03:55:11 PM »

Nice letter Meili.  Sounds very reasonable and rational, thoughtful and insightful too!

I have considered writing my ex a letter as well and every time I think about sending one to her I realize that the response will be something so far removed from my own understanding of the r/s that it would only cause me greater anguish.  So glad that you are writing this for your own benefit.

JRB
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Meili
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2016, 10:25:45 AM »

Thank you JRB.

Looking at my part in all of it has brought up a lot of guilt. I know that I'll never be able to change the past, but I have a compelling desire to try to "make it better." While I can easily remember her role in everything, my mind keeps trying to convince me that everything could be different in the future if I tried to make amends for what I did during the r/s. I know that isn't a truth though. It's a very confusing place to be.
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bunny4523
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2016, 10:59:11 AM »

A letter that I wish that I could send, but know that I shouldn't and won't... .

I think your letter is great. I'm wondering why you don't want to send it? not saying you should send it I'm just asking.  Are you afraid if you sent it, you might get a response and want to go back?

For me, I didn't send mine ONLY because I knew my words would be twisted and he would respond with mean things that weren't true about me again.  And that he wouldn't take any responsibility for any part he played and I just couldn't take feeling like the victim.  it would break me down again and harm my healing so for me... .I took my power back by not sending it.  My relationship was pretty short and I got out before I got caught up in the cycle. I saw the signs early and got into couple's therapy which immediately re-affirmed the red flags I was seeing.  Didn't even get his diagnosis until after we split... .thearapist told me when I went back by myself.

Your letter sounds more like an acknowledgement, observation and a little bit of an apology.  So if you need to send it to complete your healing process and forgive yourself... .might not be a bad idea to send it.  Think about it, run it by some friends close to you and your therapist... .if your seeing one.  The last thing you want to do is rip open old wounds- so take your time deciding.

Have a great day<

Bunny
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Meili
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2016, 11:08:44 AM »

I don't send it for the exact reasons that you stated that you didn't send yours. It would be twisted by her to become "proof" that I was completely to blame for all of the problems in the r/s.

I do plan on running it by my T when I see her this week though.

There is another reason that I don't want to send it, I am not sure of my motivation behind writing it. I can't say for certain that it isn't borne from wanting back what once was and some willingness to try again. Until I'm past that, if the letter were well received, would open the door for me to go right back to where I was. I'm still very weak where she is concerned.
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bunny4523
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2016, 12:07:42 PM »

I don't send it for the exact reasons that you stated that you didn't send yours. It would be twisted by her to become "proof" that I was completely to blame for all of the problems in the r/s.

I do plan on running it by my T when I see her this week though.

There is another reason that I don't want to send it, I am not sure of my motivation behind writing it. I can't say for certain that it isn't borne from wanting back what once was and some willingness to try again. Until I'm past that, if the letter were well received, would open the door for me to go right back to where I was. I'm still very weak where she is concerned.

sounds like your on the right track with your thinking process.  I agree, explore your motive before sending it.  Wait till you know what you want to get out of it.
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Fie
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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2016, 12:15:51 PM »

Dear Meili,

Please don't send your beautiful letter. You would be sending it to someone who doesn't reason in a normal way. You are trying to find closing, she will only see a new opening. You are trying to deal with your guilt, she will jump on that - you KNOW that is what BPD does. They sense guilt from far and they exploit it.

What would you tell a dear friend, if he said he made mistakes, even big ones, in a relationship with a BPD ? I was there, I know what it can do to you. It simply brings out the worst in you. So please, just accept you made mistakes. Don't try to be better than other people. There is not a single person on this board who does not make mistakes when BPD is involved.

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Meili
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« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2016, 12:31:31 PM »

Thank you for your responses and advice.

I keep trying to remind myself that it's just my guilt, fears, and addiction to the chaos that are driving right now. My internal struggle between my needs for self-protection and co-dependency + compulsion to seek dangerous stimuli is strong and hard to deal with.

I strongly suspect that if I hadn't known that I was triggering her fears and hurting her, I probably would have stayed in the r/s a lot longer than I did. I guess that she and I are both lucky that I feel compelled to protect others before worrying about myself.

Sadly, I miss the chaos. My T tells me that I need to find a "dangerous" hobby to fulfill that need for myself. Something like skydiving or rock climbing. The majority of my life has been filled with adrenaline peaking activities. I miss that. I think that my x filled that void for me when we were together and I miss it now.

Each time that I think about doing something like skydiving, I find myself wanting to talk to her about it or to share the experience with her. I often wonder how different the r/s would have been if we had engaged in such activities rather than getting adrenaline rushs from fighting all of the time? I know that it was the fighting that kept both of us engage toward the end. She even told me that's why she kept some of the fights going. What a strange r/s we had... .
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Meili
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« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2016, 09:52:04 PM »

I've been thinking a lot about my motivation to contact my x and I think that I've finally figured out what is spurring it on: I'm still seeking her acceptance.

If I am to believe the things that "they" say about adult survivors of childhood abuse, I'm probably not really seeking my x's acceptance as much as I am trying to find acceptance at the hands of a long history of abusers. That if I could genuinely get my x's acceptance, I would feel vindicated and that I have finally achieved what I've struggled my whole life to achieve.

I'm still not fully convinced that is the truth, but I'm going to go with it absent any evidence to the contrary.

Now, to determine if I actually miss her, miss the my needs that she fulfilled, or miss the strangely comfortable familiarity that I find in abuse?
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bunny4523
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« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2016, 12:04:05 AM »

I've been thinking a lot about my motivation to contact my x and I think that I've finally figured out what is spurring it on: I'm still seeking her acceptance.

Good for you! Now for the tough part, you may never get her acceptance... .Validation. I remember this desperate feeling and it was such a hard place to be. I was fortunate enough to address it with my ex directly. He was saying how I'm this way and I do this and I do that. ALL lies, untrue things about me and how I conduct myself. I finally just yelled "you are wrong about me, that is not who I am... .Get this through your head, your opinion of me no longer matters to me. I am done listening to you."  He tried again and again, I just said "believe what you want. " I actually felt like I took my power back because I no longer felt the need to defend myself. I know who I am and I don't care what you think.

When I interact with him now, I just keep it very simple, boring and basic. I have no desire to share any part of me with him. I do not care about talking about the past or getting an apology or validation. He made 6 months of my life hell, doubting myself... .I'm not giving him another minute.

I hope you are able to find a way to get your acceptance through finding that strength and validation from within. If you believe it about yourself so will others.

For having such a rough childhood and being around a lot of abusers, you do a great job of working through difficult emotions and finding a deeper meaning. Keep up the good work. I'm sure there is comfort in the pattern of abide for you but you are already stopping it. Smiling (click to insert in post). You see it now. Smiling (click to insert in post)

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Fie
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« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2016, 02:21:27 AM »

Hello Meili,

Having been in a long history of abusers as you mention it, you still sound like you have a very healthy mind. Congratulations on that !

I think what you are going through, is the natural result of abuse. You want to re-live the abuse, and 'make it right'. That simply is not possible, because the abuse is in the PAST. It happened, and there is nothing you can do about it anymore.

And finding validation in abusers, will never happen : they are abusers ! So there is a circle reasoning. I also went for it so many times, but it CAN not work.

So... .I think there might be only one solution : finding validation from yourself. I have done this with the help of a wonderful method, called past reality integration.

www.pastrealityintegration.com/en/

The author is a dutch psychologist, but I'm sure some of her books have been translated. There are trained therapists but where I live I did not find one, so I read her books, and also this was a big help for me.

You might want to give it a try, who knows ? There is an online test about which unhealthy defense mechanisms we use, too :

www.pastrealityintegration.com/en/tools-for-qpri-and-the-art-of-conscious-livingq/pri-and-your-defence-system

keep us updated about how you are !

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Meili
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« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2016, 09:26:43 AM »

TY Bunny and Fie.

Honestly, I would not say that there is anything healthy about my mind or that I'm doing a good job of actually working through anything. But, then again, I find it impossible to find value in anything that I do at this point, soo... .

I have a T who specializes in victims of abuse. My first appt. with her was amazing. She seemed to understand everything without my having to explain. There are moments that I dislike talking to her because she sees right past my mask. I know that it's good that she can though. She has also given me some daily affirmations to use in hopes of finding love for and value in myself.

Validation was a hot topic between my x and me. In fact, that's where all the trouble started. I felt that she didn't value me. This triggered my rejection/abandonment fears. As time passed, I stopped validating her because, well, quite frankly, what she was telling me made no sense to me. I was fine acknowledging that she felt as she did, but she wanted and told me that she needed me to understand her justification for her fears. This lead into discussions and lectures that would last for hours. I finally snapped and started to lash out at her. I finally stopped validating anything that she told me; even the things that I should have. I feel really bad about that. I know that I can't change or fix it, but I still feel horrible for doing it.

Since I drafted the letter to my x, I have been struggling. I'm having a hard time associating any feelings with the bad things that she did. The worst part about that is without the feelings, the memories themselves will vanish from the forefront of my mind and all that I'll be left with are the intense, good memories. This will only serve to cause me to miss her and long for the touch of her skin, smell of her hair, and the way that I smiled when I looked at her.

It's amazing to me. When I was with her, no matter how bad things were, I smiled. My daughter, who now despises my x, actually pushed for us to get together because she had never seen me actually smile. These are the memories that I'm not holding onto when my x pops into my mind.
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« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2016, 11:05:46 AM »

Meili,

I know this is long but I really found it to relate to my situation and my role in getting involved with a BPD. Once I could see my role in it, the dynamic I lived and how these relationships will end right there in black and white... .it really helped me.  Hope it helps you.  :)o me a favor and write down everything negative you can remember about the relationship and when you start to miss her, read it.  We often play the "what if I had done this or that differently"  It doesn't matter, it always ends with the push away... .because they cannot handle intimacy.  

Abondoned Child (BPD) and the Lonely Child (nons)

In some relationships, the idealization phase is the partner being in lonely child stance and the Borderline being in abandoned child stance.Both need saving Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone. This is one type of bonding seen in this community.

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.” When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy needs of both people.

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.

The entitlement phase brings a hidden "angry and aggressive child" out from hibernation and into full view and this usually occurs when the lonely child least expects it. The angry child that emerges is pissed and has delusions of persecution that are ideas of reference from earlier childhood trauma. It’s at this point that the angry child (Borderline) will become enraged and try to cast off shame. They may attempt to harm himself/herself in order to scapegoat the lonely child- who unwittingly stands-in for the earliest attachment. This triggers the lonely child's trauma from their earliest attachment as well.

The Borderline wants so badly to be whole that they demand that the lonely child create wholeness for them- which the partner succeeds in doing early on but then relaxes. The Borderline temper tantrum, with its ideas of reference being so very childlike and fantastic, perceives the relaxation of the partner as though the attachment is split up. In order to cope, the Borderline must now find another part time perceived good object to self medicate the emotions of feeling badly from the split. If this cannot be accomplished, the surge of limbic fear concerning anger and abandonment causes such great pain that self harm is often inflicted for relief.

The lonely child is often very surprised by this. The anger and dysregulation are in contrast to what he/she perceives are necessary for the circumstances. (The lonely child fails to see need disguised as "love." Therefore, the lonely child seeks to understand the Borderlines ideas of reference concerning "love" in order to cope with the neediness and begins a line of questioning. The Borderline retreats.

Lonely child is "understanding driven" and gets drawn into the Borderline acting out. The lonely child now has a mystery- the Borderline dilemma of "who am I?" This is very likely the same way that the lonely child came into existence as an “understanding driven” child. Especially when he questioned the motives of his earliest attachments during infancy and adolescence.

The lonely child understands the need to be held, loved and understood – because that’s what he longs for in others. The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that’s what the lonely child would want someone to do for him. There was a large reason that the initial mirroring (of this fixer /rescuer ego) worked so well in the idealization stage- the relationship really WAS the projection of lonely child that was mirrored, not the deficient ego of the Borderline.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand. This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to project and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner. All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure.

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame. Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline. It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction.

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode. They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection without another person to blame. This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.

Quote Devaluing is the BPD going into the punitive parent role to switch up the control ~ control was relinquished in the idealisation phase so we will attach. The further along we get in the rs ~ the BPD then feels like we are the persecutor for their failing part time self ~ devalue. Devaluing is more about projection ~ because there failing self makes them feel woeful, scared, fearful.

We all have punitive parents that exist in our heads. This is our Superego. The criticism felt by both parties exists as guilt and shame inside our heads. This tape plays over and over and is a re-working of former traumas. It is also a huge part of what makes complementary traumas so attractive as binding agents to each other. The lonely child has the “tyrannical shoulds” while the abandoned child has defectiveness schema- together they interact and drive each other crazy.

The understanding driven child cannot fathom how another human being does not have a “self.” The understanding driven child has had much childhood experience with strong selves and has created a self to understand the motives of others. Lonely children have a need to have some sort of control over their destiny because so much was out of control in their childhood.

The Borderline’s idea of destiny is being attached to others for protection. The Borderline cannot fathom what it means to have a stand alone “self.”

Both parties are human “doing” for others rather than being- but there is more impulsivity in Borderline in the “offering” of themselves as objects. (The lonely child is very particular concerning who he gives his heart to and makes decisions based upon careful consideration.)

The failure to find a healthy mature love activates the punitive parent in both people’s psyche- one for persecution and the other for failure to understand others (cloaked in rescuing behaviors)- this is the “flea” of each others psychiatric trauma that really is a very strong obsessive bond, and one of endless victimization for both parties unless one or the other becomes understanding driven toward self direction. Guess who has the best chance? Unfortunately, the mirrored good that the Borderline provided was a very strong drug- and the obsession is outwardly projected (as it always has been) by the lonely child in order to understand and consequently, control it.

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos.

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.) The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment. At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good. It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning. When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole.

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good. Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment. The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2016, 12:31:28 PM »

WHOA! That was so spot on Bunny that it is scary! It is as if it were actually written about my x's and my r/s.

The entire time that I was reading it I was thinking that if only my x could read it and see what happened then we'd have a chance to make it all better. And, then, I came to this:

Excerpt
Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.

I do still desire to "fix" it (take your pick as to what "it" means - me, my x, the r/s).

Also, the entire time that I was reading it, I was thinking that if only I had not triggered her fears in the first place... .

I guess that the reality is that I did, and there's no recovery from there now. That doesn't stop the thoughts and wondering though. "Now that I know what's going on, surely I could help it play out differently" is kinda how the thought process goes. In response, I keep reminding myself that no one can fix another person.

Then, there's the shame that comes from knowing that I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't able to keep my composure. I wasn't able to find enough compassion. I wasn't able to stop the spiral without walking away. There are any other "I wasn't good enoughs" that travel through my brain during the day. I truly wonder if I'll ever be able to convince myself that I did all that I could. Right now I (obviously) believe that I can and could have done more to help the situation.

Anyway, I do have a list (somewhere) of the things that my x did. The biggest ones are hard for me to forget (like her entering my house uninvited and threatening to make false allegations and have me arrested... .or the sting of very insulting text messages that she admits were purposefully designed to hurt me).

It's all just so crazy to me. They love us, yet they hurt us. We love them, yet we hurt them. Each hurting the other under the guise of self-protection. Both knowing that other options are available but not able to see them.
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« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2016, 01:22:41 PM »

Meili

Yay!  I’m glad you can relate to it, maybe it will help you!

But don’t miss the biggest message here… you will always trigger their fears.  This is not about YOU or what you did, it is in them and inevitable.  It will happen sooner or later and you cannot reassure them permanently.  You did nothing wrong.  Once they get close to you they will fear losing you…   That is “intimacy” and it is a beautiful trust and loving place to be in a healthy relationship.  True intimacy is a BPD's worst fear... .



Another thing I read was it never gets better – meaning their fear, it will happen over and over again.  So you would have to be strong enough to take that negativity and abuse for the duration of the relationship. 

Did you ever see the movie,” Fifty First Dates?”  It’s like that concept, they cannot control it.  It just is how it will be.

I struggled with feeling “not strong enough” too so I understand but remember this… it is ok for you to not want to deal with this, to not want this kind of relationship.  I used to think to myself, I’m glad that I found out his diagnosis after I left because I may have tried to help and support him and it would have destroyed me.  I have worked too hard and have so much love to give and honestly it would have been wasted on him.  Our love could have only gone so deep.  I want more for myself, for my relationship. I have children too so that helped me because I want even more for them than I do for myself so in my mind… I HAD to leave. 

There are so many things I’ve read that helped me.  I remember the topic, “I hate you, please don’t leave me.”  Their thoughts are so hurtful and so confusing, irrational and exaggerated. I don't want to understand it.  I want to love someone who thinks and loves like I do. Smiling (click to insert in post)   

To stay in a BPD relationship, you would have to be wiling to accept all the bad that comes with the “good”.  Not easy to do and the bad starts to taint the good so it doesn’t seem so good anymore.  Please do yourself a favor and find someone who will love you the way you love them.  That is what you deserve…  Give your love to someone who will give it back.

Bunny


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« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2016, 01:54:49 PM »

I working really hard on getting there Bunny.

Right now, I still devalue myself so much that I get caught up in my mental mind games that tell me that pwBPD crave love, but can't find it because of their issue. I have only known abuse. I have survived abuse my entire life. Why not just accept the abuse and give my x the love that she craves? In my mind and "heart" it all feels like it would be worth it.

Of course, cognitively, I know that the reality is that she'd never be able to recognize it for any sustainable amount of time. Also, that I walked away from the r/s for a reason; it wasn't worth it. If I was the only one that was feeling pain, sure I could probably martyr myself and accept it. That isn't what was happening however.

I should point out that I'm not actually co-dependent. I don't put other's needs before my own. I do play the martyr and rescuer however. I just stop short of truly hurting myself in the process.

I am pretty sure that comes from my believe that I'm not worthy of anything more than abuse and that I'm strong enough to take it.

It's all truly so mental... .

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« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2016, 02:34:43 PM »

Geez, after my last post, I found this:

Schema Mode-Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child  The  Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child is a maladaptive schema characterized by feelings of being lonely, isolated, sad, misunderstood, unsupported, defective, deprived, overwhelmed, incompetent, doubts self, needy, helpless, hopeless, frightened, anxious, worried, victimized, worthless, unloved, unlovable, lost, directionless, fragile, weak, defeated, oppressed, powerless, left out, excluded, pessimistic.  The Lonely Child is prone to act in a passive, subservient, submissive, approval-seeking way around others out of fear of conflict or rejection; tolerates abuse and/or bad treatment; selects people or engages in other behavior that directly maintains the self-defeating schema-driven pattern.

It has been pointed out how idealization is a vehicle that can connect people in these two schemas.  The Abandoned/Abused Child is desperately seeking a connection and in BPD that drives an overreaction (idealization).  The Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child is approval seeking and revels in it. The Lonely child is also prone to try to cling to the relationship long after it has turned bad as they are tolerant of and often feel deserving of bad treatment.

It seems to fit perfectly with what I had written about being tolerant of the abuse and what I wrote before about seeking my x's acceptance.
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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2016, 02:45:13 PM »

Meili,

Ahhh... .that makes me so sad to hear you say that but I do understand where you are coming from.  So you rescue her and love her but then who loves you?  Even if you did that, there is a good chance she would make more and more demands until she replaces you.  Then where will you be left?  

I am giving you the biggest hug right now.  I want you to feel safe and loved in your relationship.  I want you to see that you have so much to give to your partner.  That it is ok for you to not be perfect, to make mistakes in your relationship, just say sorry and move on.   I want you to be in a relationship with someone who gives you the benefit of the doubt because she knows your heart is in the right place.  Someone who encourages you and reminds you that you are safe now.

It is all mental, drivin by past actions and emotions of feeling worthless.  You are worth it and once you believe it, others will see it too.  Your doing a great job at working through it, don't give up.  It will get easier.  You're on the right path.

Bunny    
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« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2016, 02:47:55 PM »

[/quote]
It seems to fit perfectly with what I had written about being tolerant of the abuse and what I wrote before about seeking my x's acceptance. [/quote]
It sure does!  isn't it weird when it is written somewhere in black and white?  It's like you can understand now why you are feeling the way you are because that is what would happen to like 90% of people in the same situations you experienced.  It's comforting somehow... .
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« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2016, 03:04:55 PM »

Yes, it is strangely comforting.

It's kinda funny that you mentioned safety Bunny. I was JUST talking to a friend about the fact that I felt safe quite often when with my x. In fact, she and I would talk about feeling completely safe when going to sleep at night. It may be revisionist history, but I can't think of a time in my life that I felt so safe as when I was cuddling her as we fell asleep.

Sadly, much of the rest of the time (if not all) was overshadowed by fear.

There is someone in my life who loves me. I constantly ignore her and push her away. We were supposed to get married a few years back. She still tries to get that r/s back. I just push her away at every turn.

My T tells me that it's probably because I don't think that I deserve or have earned her love. I dunno know.

I do find myself trying to "mold her" to fit into many of the things that my pwBPD did and was. I take her to the same places. I do many of the same types of things. All the while I feel guilty, creepy, and bad for doing it.
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2016, 04:23:03 PM »

I just now realized something. Well, I say just now, I'm guessing that I've realized it a zillion times before, but keep forgetting.

When I was trying beyond all possibility of hope to help my uexBPDgf to deal with her fears and pain she didn't reciprocate.

She told me to just get over my FOO issues. She told me to just move on from them.

When I would feel sad or down, she would always change the subject to something that was bothering her.

When I told her that I needed her to be soft, gentle, and caring towards me, and a safe place for me to land as I struggle with my FOO issues, she told me that she would, but only conditionally. As long as I gave her what she needed and didn't upset her.

My T and I were talking today about movies. The original Die Hard came up. She pointed out that no matter how badly John McClane was hurting, he still supported and fought for his wife. I instantly related to that. That's what I've always done. Even as a young child, I would take the abuse so that my siblings didn't have to feel the pain. I was good at it after all (meaning that I could take it), why shouldn't I be the one to endure it?

My T went on to point something else out that I had never considered. No matter how much his wife, Holly, disliked him... .no matter how angry she was with him... .at the start of the movie, she still took action to protect him.

My T told me that's how that's supposed to to work. A couple is supposed to support one another. A couple is supposed to take risks (when necessary) to make sure that the other is safe. It is supposed to be both ways.

It never was a two-way street with my x. No matter how much she professed to "love me as no one ever has before," she didn't. She loved me just as everyone that I've loved deeply has loved me before... .she loved what I gave and did for her.

I'm sure that I'll have this realization several more times, so please just bear with me.
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2016, 04:37:12 PM »

Meili,

Good for you!  Now print that off and keep it in your wallet or something as a quick reference.  I remember that too... .thinking you say you love me soo much but you don't act like you love me.   It's kind of weird now looking back on it because all his words seemed empty.  I never felt loved.  I felt judged, misunderstood, like I was a prize sometimes.  He would act like I was the most amazing woman ever and buy me things but it's like it was more about "look how nice I am, I bought her this."  I even felt his comments in front of my friends about how great I was wasn't even about me.  It was about him, what he had.   

Such a difference from the relationship I am in now.  I feel loved everyday even without him saying it.  It's a look, a hug, a smile he gives me... .even just being in the same space and giggling at each other. Helping me or being protective about something that is happening.  Gosh what a difference a non BPD partner makes... .Smiling (click to insert in post) 
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2016, 04:55:40 PM »

As strange as this may sound, my x always told me that she wanted my comments to my friends to be about "what I had" with regard to her and that she was a prize to be won.

Oh, wait, maybe that isn't so strange. Maybe that's because she wanted/wants to be worshiped? I'm gonna have to give that one some thought.

But, yep, from day one I felt judged and misunderstood. Listening to her talk about her exes, I always worried about what she would tell people about me if we didn't work out. That thought stayed in my mind until the very last text message that she ever sent me. Since that time, I've stopped caring what she tells people. I've removed myself from our group of friends. I no long associate in the same crowds. It was sad having to give up some of those things, especially since they were all "mine" before we met. I introduced her to all of those people and situations. Oh well, my life is going on without them.

I also stopped doing several things that I enjoyed doing because she would want to do them too. I heard her complain and make fun of others that she had done them with in the past. Because I didn't want to be just another one of those stories where the other person is the butt of her jokes, I didn't engage in those activities.

Nevertheless, she found things to make fun of me and talk down to me about at the end. Oh, she apologized the next day. She even told me that she picked those specific things in hopes of hurting me. Her telling me that certainly didn't make me feel any better. I had defended her actions for a long time; telling her that I didn't think that she was malicious. But, in the end, that's what she turned out to be.

Oh, hey, look at me! I'm actually starting to get a bit angry about her treatment of me and not defending her because she was scared and hurting!

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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2016, 10:42:17 PM »

Staff only

Processing emotions as they come in stages is vital to the detachment process. 

This is a worthwhile topic to explore.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

This thread has reached its post limit and is now locked.  Feel free to start a new thread to continue the discussion. 
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