Those who stay married so as to not hurt the other's feelings.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I have been looking at some feelings I have been having and I wanted to ask if there are others out here who feel they may just stay married because it's easier, gentler, kinder, to just stay married - and really are too nice of a person to hurt their partner's feelings?

I'm staying married at the time to provide best for my kids, but, I have asked myself if I've got the guts to divorce when it's time.  Then I wonder if it would be just too hard, and feel to mean to get divorced.  I doubt that's how I feel entirely, but, it's something I'm questioning.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's no more real love.  There's a good amount of hidden anger that will / could push me to act when needed, and I tell myself that without kids, I'd be gone in 60 seconds.  I wonder, am I just too nice?

[byfaith]

if there are others out here who feel they may just stay married because it's easier, gentler, kinder, to just stay married - and really are too nice of a person to hurt their partner's feelings?

Maybe this is a sign of weakness to some but that is part of the reason I remain with my wife. Difference here is that I think there is some real love on both of our parts. I have asked myself on occasions what am I willing to sacrifice just to maintain a marriage? There are some feelings of love, but really when it comes down to it love is not always a feeling.

[byfaith]

hidden anger sucks and it's just a matter of time before it will come out

Hang in there

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, I know exactly what you are talking about.  I'm a genuinely nice, easy-going guy and don't like to hurt others.  Yet it was this quality that my BPDxW used against me.  In other contexts, kindness is an admirable quality, yet I think it is dangerous in a BPD r/s because I was more inclined to hurt myself before I would ever hurt my BPDxW.  My BPD Ex took advantage of my naivete, you could say, in order to advance her own agendas.  As many here have noted, a normal person would run -- and I mean sprint -- away from a pwBPD, yet I stuck around for the abuse because of my "niceness."  There's nothing kind or nice about allowing oneself to remain the victim of abuse, believe me.

I hear what you're saying Samwize, and I'm worried about you.  I learned the hard way, which I don't recommend.

LuckyJim

[Sunfl0wer]

What if this was reversed?

I would not think it so nice for a man to stay with me out of feeling sorry for me or such.  How nice is that actually to everyone?

[SamwizeGamgee]

All the above was very good feedback.  I am still sorting out the feelings - which takes time.  I am pretty sure that if no kids were involved, it would be a distant (bad) memory. 

However, I do prefer to be kind.  At other times I have been in the spirit of letting go with love.  I have created distance in the relationship over the past year.  I sleep separately in the basement.  We have superficial talks mostly.  We carry on.  I am letting her gain some of her own independence, something she will never do so long as I remain the caretaker (a role I rebuke now) and so, I am gently "hurting her feelings" for her own good. 

And that is an excellent point, Sunfl0wer.  I am not being kind, or helping anyone, by being so dishonest with my feelings and actions. 

In addition to the idea of being kind, I also question if I have the stamina and resources to fight for divorce, and create my own life.  I am positive that she will cause a great deal of harm to the kids' psyche by programming them against me, or overwhelming them with manipulation and passive aggression.  A damaging force I can forestall by simply staying married. So, I suffer out of compassion to protect my kids.

[Sunfl0wer]

SamwizeGamgee,

It sounds like you are being thoughtful about things and wisely considering many different angles.

Part of the reason I stayed was because it was too hard, insurmountable seeming, to face the alternative.  I say this because I see so many here do similar where the reason they are staying is because it is what they know, it is familiar, and changing things is so so so scary.

For me, I observed in ways that I was "losing" myself over the gradual "compromises" that were constantly happening I started to see how I was changing, and I did not like what I saw.  So rather than make a decision to leave or stay, I made a decision to find and honor my values again.  The natural result was that the relationship could not sustain me behaving like an individual with my own desires, goals, wants, opinions, sense of self.  I was able to live with myself for spending months living with him but not rescuing things in a way that I felt compromised who I am.

Ok, so tbh, there is part of me that feels a wimp for not being able to clearly identify: This isn't working, time to cut losses.

Another part though: I am very grateful for the opportunity of being near him as the relationship dissolved as I got to see a perspective of him and us and practice tools and such during this time.  It really was a period of growth and made me feel more secure than I could have felt had I simply walked away.  Had I walked away, I would still be doubting myself.

Many people may give you what seems like clear advice.  I think there are shades of grey in all of this and in deciding leaving or staying.  It is complicated from the outside, us looking in.  More complicated likely being the one seeing it from the inside.

--------

I do not know what is best for your kids, that is tricky I imagine.  I just know some people leave because the model of parenting that they show to the kids while together, they believe is worse than showing them two adults having independent lives.  Then again, many get alienated and such, this is horrible.

[Lucky Jim]

Well put, SunflOwer.  Right, it begs the question, Sam, of what kind of an example you are setting for your kids, as discussed previously on another thread.  There's nothing nice or kind about being emotionally dishonest.

On the other hand, I can attest to the damage a pwBPD can do to the psyches of young kids, so there is no easy answer.  Forestalling damage to your kids is certainly noble, Sam, if you can sustain it, which I couldn't.

I stayed in order to provide a stabilizing influence on my kids.  I told myself that it was my job to counterbalance the wild emotional swings of my BPDxW, who thrives on drama.  Yet I nearly destroyed myself in the process, which was no help to anyone.

My suggestion, Sam, is to keep good boundaries and make sure that you are doing the things that nurture who you are at your core.  Without "feeding" your innermost self, you can find yourself with nothing left in the tank, which is what happened to me.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

Good counsel.  Thanks.

I look back over the last two years and I notice a huge difference in me, and that change has influenced what is around me.  I have gone through the feelings of breaking the chians of being controlled and manipulated.  Mostly, it was becoming aware that I was OK, and that what I was in was an emotionally abusive (aka toxic) relationship.  This awareness, and permission to be myself and an average human at that, really built-up my sense of self.  I have learned that a strong sense of self is one of the best vaccines to the damage caused in an emotionally and verbally abusive relationship.  Another huge hurdle I had before this could even start was that I had to learn, and believe, that I was not all to blame, and that I was in fact in an abusive relationship.  I mean, where were the bruises, the police reports, the broken dishes, the crying kids, where was a victim?

I didn't notice this because my wife, once I got control of myself, no longer got anything from her yelling and raging at me, so she doubled down on crying and moodiness, and disappearing, and self-hate.  So, it didn't fit what I thought anyone would call an abusive relationship. I went to visit with divorce attorneys, and they waited to hear proof of abuse, or how unfit she was, or something.  I connected with a couple of lawyers when I explained how she would treat the kids, but, for the most part, no one accepts that a strong, capable man can be emotionally abused, controlled, or even suffer at all.  I felt like just telling the lawyers that I wanted a divorce because my wife doesn't like meatloaf, since that's about as significant as they treat the waif type BPD symptoms.  

So back onto your comments, thus far it has been very good that I stayed.  I have established a stronger foundation with the kids.  I have established and defended my sense of self.  I have learned a great deal about disordered personalities.  I can now practice what I preach for the most part when dealing with difficult people in general.  I understand and try to keep boundaries (they should teach this in school to all ages).  I have a profoundly deeper compassion for abuse victims.  I understand so much more of suffering and survival than before.  I am also aware that damage is done, and being done.  I don't really know how to mitigate it.  I'm still "under construction."

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Samwize, I admire your courage and fortitude in what sounds like an extremely stressful situation.

I have learned that a strong sense of self is one of the best vaccines to the damage caused in an emotionally and verbally abusive relationship.  Another huge hurdle I had before this could even start was that I had to learn, and believe, that I was not all to blame, and that I was in fact in an abusive relationship.

Totally agree.

for the most part, no one accepts that a strong, capable man can be emotionally abused, controlled, or even suffer at all. 

I can confirm that's true, too.  Because BPD is so far out of the realm of what others have generally experienced, they have no frame of reference and really can't relate to what it's like for a man to be the victim of a woman's abuse.  There's a shame attached to it, like it's a dark, dirty secret, which is why I'm convinced that violence against men is wildly underreported.  I'm sure it happens all the time, but no one talks about it.

As for being "under construction, you have company, Sam!  Like many here, I'm sort of a "work-in-progress."

LuckyJim

[teapay]

Sam,

What kind of damage is being done to your kids that you are having difficulty mitigating.  What kind of problems are your kids having?  Are you talking about abusing the kids or poor modeling for the kids?

[Sunfl0wer]

I find myself challenged greatly to try to describe situations of covert abuse in my life.  It messes with my own sense of reality, gets me questioning what is real, who I am to think these things about someone when it is hard to know what is really true or not.

Sometimes I think it is easier to process a broken plate throw towards me than covert words meant to trigger me that only me and he are aware that the words are meant as a tool.

Just this week at work, someone used a veiled threat against me.  They were angry at me, cut the conversation, spoke firmly and focused on the new topic that appeared almost random, about how a gun is fired, how the ammo discharges and such.

I cannot call police and say he threatened to shoot me because he did not.  But I am the one who knows the intent behind the words.  I am the one who was able to observe his vocal tone change, see anger in his face, see him dominate what was happening with his words to intimidate me.

How can I convey that?  It is hard!  It makes me question if it is real intent to intimidate, or did I make it up.

Covert abuse sucks because we are being manipulated on such an insidious level, it messes with our mind, it is hard to convey which makes it hard to even recall and store our minds in some way... .i think.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Sam,

What kind of damage is being done to your kids that you are having difficulty mitigating.  What kind of problems are your kids having?  Are you talking about abusing the kids or poor modeling for the kids?

That's an answer that could talk a long time to assemble, but, in sum, they are subject to projection, blame, as am I.  They get subtle passive aggressive treatments, and at times yelled at or controlled far beyond what I think is acceptable. They hear from her about my moods and faults (mostly generations of her projection). They are confused I'm sure because sometimes mom is great, sometimes a helpless waif requiring parentification, at others times mom is emotionally self absorbed and absent, or leaves without purpose or explanation, or angry and dramatic.  They are being raised to either model abuse or accept abuse. 

So, it is abuse?  Maybe not in the eyes of others, but, I have one shot to raise good kids and break the generational cycle of abuser.

@LuckyJim, - IMO - A big part of society does not know how to recognize, handle, or treat emotional and verbal abuse.  Much less is there a way to recognize male victims - a line that men are as much responsible for, as a victim of, holding.  Such a lack of awareness, and it's taboo to have feelings.

@Sunfl0wer - that's a scary situation at work.  Please be safe!  And yes, the hidden covert abuse it terrible.  No real evidence is left, no scars, and it leaves the victim as much wondering if it happened , or if it was wrong what happened.  I had to see symptoms and examples spelled out in books and websites to identify and acknowledge what had been going on for years.

[byfaith]

I am the one who knows the intent behind the words.  I am the one who was able to observe his vocal tone change, see anger in his face, see him dominate what was happening with his words to intimidate me.

How can I convey that?  It is hard!  It makes me question if it is real intent to intimidate, or did I make it up.

Covert abuse sucks because we are being manipulated on such an insidious level, it messes with our mind, it is hard to convey which makes it hard to even recall and store our minds in some way... .i think.

EXACTLY... .my question is do they KNOW they are doing it. This is why I have trouble sometimes conveying exact situations here on the boards because some of the stuff I deal with I perceive as the covert stuff mixed with overt abuse.

[teapay]

I've got 5 kids of my own under 12 yrs old, so I have similar concerns as you.  My W has lost quite a bit of functionality of the years.  I've been through some of the more extreme behaviors and most of the more subtle behaviors you describe your W exhibits.  Both can be damaging.  The extreme stuff is more clear cut and how to handle.  But it is easier to get leverage and support from others for those. They also seem easier for the BPD to change in the face of boundaries and consequences.  The subtle behaviors are more pervasive.  Leaving kids continuously alone to the devices of a BPD is the most damaging.

There are things you can do to mitigate.  It sounds like you are doing many of them.  Establishing boundaries in the marriage relationship is one and letting your kids see it does mitigate to some extent.  You are doing it in some aspects of your life.  Moving that forward into more areas will make things better for you and them.

Maintaining a good relationship with them will go along way to mitigate.  Modeling good responsible behaviors will also mitigate some of your W.  Let them see the clear difference by actions and outcomes.  Without bashing your W, teach and explain to them right and wrong and rectify any distortions coming their way.  Keep them busy doing positive things and exposed to others who are doing positive things.  If they are having problems get them counseling privately or through the schools.  These kind of things do provide some mitigation.

If there are some things your W is doing that you need to confront in some fashion by all means do it.

I'd ask again.  Are they having difficulties?  Kids are pretty resilient.  That doesn't mean that they won't be effected by their upbringing.  But most will see through the nonsense as they mature and grow into responsible adults, especially if you provide a positive influence by their side and into adulthood.

[Sunfl0wer]

EXACTLY... .my question is do they KNOW they are doing it. This is why I have trouble sometimes conveying exact situations here on the boards because some of the stuff I deal with I perceive as the covert stuff mixed with overt abuse.

In my situation at work, I saw a switch flip on the guy.  He partially likely has a touch of dementia (not much) and a whole lot of post war PTSD (lots of medals on the wall).

Well, IMO, to make such a clever covert threat, takes know how. (It was later revealed to me he is a suspected abuser). Yet what I feel I saw was a man who had a delusion of threat and used intimidation in a skillful way.  So did he know what he was doing?  I believe he knew he was defending himself.  I do believe his reality was one where he likely felt somewhat threatened by me via some delusion, but not a real life/danger threat, one of social discomfort, yet his "go to" response is to clobber people somehow.  So I feel there was a mix of things happening.

For my ex, maybe a similar mix.  I think sometimes he knew he was angry, being passive aggressive, and convincing himself he was entitled to do so for some perceived slight I did to him.  (Often not accurate with regards to my intentions, and him adding meaning that did nit exist). Sometimes he seemed he knew he did wrong, but then in hindsight wanted to "undo" the wrong.  Rather than choosing to apologize and repair the relationship, he choose to rewrite the situation to JADE it into "being ok."

Now was the gaslighting intentional by ex, I have no idea, maybe sometimes.  I just know I wish I had set better boundaries on that because it started to drive me mad.

I do often wonder how much intent on the persons part matters vs just looking at the affect on us.  That is hard for me.

[Cat Familiar]

Sunfl0wer, that was definitely a threat. It brought to mind similar threats I experienced as an investigative reporter. One guy I was interviewing about an entirely different topic described in detail how a mutual acquaintance's house burned down and gave a very explicit description of what the family pets looked like in the aftermath of that fire. He then mentioned the road I live on and asked me if I liked living there.

Another time, the PR guy for a major sports team called, yelling at me after midnight, and afterwards I kept my gate locked for weeks, thinking some of the "B" team thugs might drive up my driveway at any moment.

I always notified my editor after these sorts of threats, but that didn't make me feel any safer. But I wanted to establish a record of threats in case someone did try to follow through. Your situation is different because it's a fellow employee, so you have to tread carefully if you report him, but it might be good to chart this incident with Human Resources, if your workplace is large enough to have that department.

To get back to the original question, I stayed married to my ex-husband for years, long after I realized that I actually hated him. I didn't want to hurt him and my work, at that time, was tied up in a business we jointly operated. We had no children, but we'd been together so long and our lives were so jointly mingled, it seemed impossible to untangle. I really felt like I was waiting to die.

Finally, after enduring so much abuse, I made an agreement with myself that either the next infidelity or physical attack would lead me to decision point--that I'd either give up totally or I'd leave. I ended it, rather than betray myself any further.

It was really difficult at first, but then it was so freeing and unbelievably wonderful to no longer live with this dark presence in my life.

[Lucky Jim]

Finally, after enduring so much abuse, I made an agreement with myself that either the next infidelity or physical attack would lead me to decision point--that I'd either give up totally or I'd leave. I ended it, rather than betray myself any further.

It was really difficult at first, but then it was so freeing and unbelievably wonderful to no longer live with this dark presence in my life.

Good for you, Cat.  It feels good to get albatross off one's neck, doesn't it?  Yes, it's hard and painful to make the change, yet it leads to greater happiness.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

Wow. There's a lot of life experience on in this group!

Thanks for sharing. 

@Cat - in some ways I wish I had something concrete (proof of infidelity, physical attack)  - that would do it for me, too.  Instead I'm surrounded by subtle, fleeting, ever changing events that may be invisible until you actually live with them.  Maddening.  And then cycle in some good behavior to make me feel like the bad-guy for ever thinking otherwise.

@Teapay - yes, kids are resilient.  I think as a compensation for the weirdness at home they are all pretty much high achievers in school.  My son, the middle child, is clearly affected and if an adult would be positive for all the traits of borderline / narc, and add some Autism too maybe.  The older girls go through waves of silent hostility towards me, like mom.  The younger ones are happy and healthy and I have a great relationship with them.  I give them all lots of help as I can.  I also give them lots of no-help to let them see consequences too.  I hope that they can rise above their current home life.  I doubt two of them will in the end though.  I have been pretty frank and open with each child at their level.  I hope they can see unhealthy versus healthy, remembering to underline that I'm not perfect, but, I can tell what's good and bad. 

If it was just a matter of getting my kids safely into adulthood, I am hoping I can be strong enough.  It's that task coupled with the sinking dread of spending years with my wife in our current relationship that makes me compare marriage to being buried alive or drowning - with the difference being the latter two are over quickly. 

And then, I keep trying to stay married, hoping that I can get a little something of a normal adult relationship with my wife.  Somewhere in between hope and lying to myself.  Well, that, and loneliness.

[teapay]

My D11 is pretty emotional compared to most kids her age and was have some r/s issues with her friends.  We did get her counseling and that seemed to help.  Is your W supporive towards some thing like that if your kids are having problems.  It sounds lIke your doing alot of helpful things toward them and that they'll probably stay on track.

I look at my marriage as a temporary state of affairs like other things in life.  I do stay for the kids sake, mainly because I think for now it is probably the best alternative for them.  If that changes (they get older, W gets worse) I'll likely change the arrangement.  I'm pretty determined to keep them on track and make my life better for me regardless.  Once the kids are alittle older I'll move on.  It is not what I hoped for.  We planned great things together that probably won't happen.  But I can make new plans.

[Harri]

In addition to the idea of being kind, I also question if I have the stamina and resources to fight for divorce, and create my own life.  I am positive that she will cause a great deal of harm to the kids' psyche by programming them against me, or overwhelming them with manipulation and passive aggression.  A damaging force I can forestall by simply staying married. So, I suffer out of compassion to protect my kids.

On the other hand, I can attest to the damage a pwBPD can do to the psyches of young kids, so there is no easy answer.  Forestalling damage to your kids is certainly noble, Sam, if you can sustain it, which I couldn't.I stayed in order to provide a stabilizing influence on my kids.  I told myself that it was my job to counterbalance the wild emotional swings of my BPDxW, who thrives on drama.  Yet I nearly destroyed myself in the process, which was no help to anyone.

I do not know what is best for your kids, that is tricky I imagine.  I just know some people leave because the model of parenting that they show to the kids while together, they believe is worse than showing them two adults having independent lives.  Then again, many get alienated and such, this is horrible.

Sam, and anyone else reading this, please realize that parental alienation can and usually does occur even when you remain married.  Manipulation and passive aggressive behavior will *continue* to occur whether you remain in the marriage or not.  Your presence is not saving your kids from the damage of growing up with a BPD parent.  When you are there, you *might* be able to run interference but are you there 24 hours a day?  How does your presence stop the kids from sensing the tension, hearing the tone of voice used, the stress from living in a home with two unhappy parents who talk only of superficial things and sleep in separate rooms?

I am not trying to say your choice to stay is wrong and that you should leave.  That is your choice to make.  I am simply pointing out that the "staying for the kids sake" reasoning is full of holes (way more than I mentioned here) and is just as false as the idea of staying married because you are too nice to leave.  

another fallacy is when parents here say things like "well, BPD mom's/dad's rage is directed towards me and not the kids".  Read about the emotional development of kids.  Infants can sense moods and changes in tones.  Kids hearing yelling/loud talking in the middle of the night lie there in bed scared and confused, some terrified.  Kids can sense the tension in the house when the parents are arguing/fighting.  They can feel the inner suffering of the parent regardless of an outward smile.  They hear, see and sense way more than most adults ever realize.

Being there for the kids means being the support, the good example, the voice of truth for your kids.  It means setting boundaries, walking away *and taking the kids with you* when the BPD parent dysregulates and explaining to them exactly what is going on in terms they can understand and in ways that do not increase the damage.  It means understanding that the recommendation to present a united front and not 'bad-mouth' one parent is a fine line to walk but one that must be walked and sometimes crossed. It means teaching them how to Be.

So, I suffer out of compassion to protect my kids.

I am not sure how compassion fits in here.  

I'd ask again.  Are they having difficulties?  Kids are pretty resilient.  That doesn't mean that they won't be effected by their upbringing.  But most will see through the nonsense as they mature and grow into responsible adults, especially if you provide a positive influence by their side and into adulthood.

I would challenge the assertion that *most* kids would be able to see through the nonsense.  Maybe if they have one parent who is healthy and capable of counteracting the nonsense/abuse of BPD... .maybe.  Kids are resilient, but only when they have good, strong healthy models to look to.  Also, I am starting to believe that this supposed resiliency has a shelf life for kids who grew up in a BPD/Non family.  So many seem to get through childhood and young adulthood with little to no outward signs of problems.  They often go on to become productive members of society, married with kids and families of their own... .only to find things falling apart later on in life.  so many go on to repeat the same dynamic by copying the marriage of their damaged parents and their poor boundaries.  They have the same issues, often becoming 'fixers' and rescuers... . thinking they are being kind.  I think the kids who demonstrate obvious problems when they are young are at a bit of an advantage in some ways as they can get help when they are young and still can be saved.

I had a hard time finding the words to express what I said above.  I chose the direct approach rather than soften things and make them all comfortable to hear in fear that the message would be lost.  I want you to see the issues clearly. 

I will end this by saying that you all who are trying so hard to heal and help yourselves and your kids and even your BPD spouses, SO's have my respect and admiration.  None of what I wrote is meant to be argumentative ... .and remember, it's all just my opinion.

Be well.

[Cat Familiar]

I want to echo Harri's comments. I grew up with a BPD mother and a non dad. The first part of my childhood was fairly normal until three members of my mother's family were tragically killed in a car accident and other than a last minute decision, my mother and I would have been in that car. So there was survivor's guilt tacked on to the BPD.

Apparently she was barely coping after that tragedy and had difficulty dealing with a young child (me). Then I skipped a grade. So far all was good in my life until we moved into a new neighborhood, where I suddenly became a social pariah. That status, or lack thereof, followed me throughout high school. To my surprise, when I entered college, and left behind all my cohorts who had belittled me, I suddenly became one of the "cool" kids and I chose psychology as a major.

The only reason I wanted to study psychology was to try to figure out What the heck happened to my mother and my childhood. From an early age I knew our family was not "normal" but I couldn't figure out why. At that time, borderline personality was not explicitly described the way it is now, so I couldn't fit my mother into any of the classical behavioral disorders because she was high functioning in many ways.

When I was about five years old, my mother told me that she was divorcing my dad and asked which parent I would choose to live with. I told her if that happened, I would run away. For the next several years, both parents frequently asked me who I liked best. In the end, there was no divorce. I've wondered what my life would have been like had my dad been given custody, but that scenario seldom happened back then and anyway, he was the primary wage earner.

It's taken many years and lots of psychotherapy for me to feel confident and strong. I ended up marrying two men with BPD because they both felt like "family". I've forgiven my mother and I now remember her with compassion, but she certainly exacted some lifelong damage on my psyche. I chose not to have children because I felt like I'd either parent them the way I was raised (G-d forbid) or I'd do a 180. In retrospect, considering who I was married to, this was an excellent decision.

To sum, no child gets out of a BPD household unscathed. I wish all you parents the best. I understand how difficult it is for you. It totally wore my father out, living with my mother all those years. After he died and I moved her into a house near me (there was no way I was going to live with her), I frequently told myself that he must have been a saint to put up with her for so long.

[earlgrey]

excellent thread and excellent posts.

I am married and the thought of not hurting spouse's feelings has been very strong in pushing through a divorce. Or rather was... .

Then this feeling mellowed and was replaced by fear of being alone/emptiness post divorce.

Also there is a feeling that things are no so bad... .(frog in boiling water)

Add to that kids, maybe it is best to stay together.

Mix that all up with codependency and putting one's own agenda out of view and I think I begin to understand why getting out is so difficult.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all for your contributions, and direct and personal experience.  I am not a co-dependent, I don't feel the need to be with someone.  But, I am a rescuer of sorts, as well as a person who will ultimately "bite the bullet" and do what needs to be done (thus gradually increasing my wife's disability to care for herself as I see now). 

I am taking in the above comments, and they deserve more thought.  I do also appreciate the experience of adult children of BPD/dysfunctional relationships.  My reply right now is more or less random and in the moment.

I know my kids are and will suffer.  I am still a little stuck trying to see a best path to take for them.  I know that I am suffering, and will whether divorced or married, but for different reasons. 

I also know that at times, there is nothing really painful in my marriage.  I sometimes hover somewhere above quiet desperation and an acceptance of "as good as it gets" in my current reality. This is partly due to the confusion that comes from her good days (and weeks) as an apparently normal woman (aka Dr Jekyll).  I want to track the days for a more careful analysis.

I also face my situation as one of resignation.  I recall being very disappointed, regretful, and deeply depressed as soon as I got married.  I wonder if it was as though my inner psyche recognized what I repressed outwardly.  In hindsight, I should have, or could have, acted on my gut instinct, and cut off the marriage.  But, being the devoted religious person, and believing in the permanence of marriage, I stuck it out.  Then along came my first daughter, and no way could I be parted from her. Then, if you've got one kid, why not another... ., and so forth, to the modern day.  So, I am here, with my kid's early childhood, and all those married years gone by. I wonder if I should just reach a point of acceptance and ride it out now. I've learned to avoid a few triggers, keep my own calm, and stay in my space.  A boiled frog syndrome.

I'm going to think more on the posts here.  Thanks.

And Harri - you have hit on something, many things really.  I have had the idea that my kids are all doing so well in school, and outwardly exceptional activities, as a displacement for some inner lack of a childhood. I know that's not an eloquent explanation in psycho-babble, but, I am concerned that the kids will be so perfect now, and then, when important things are in front of them as young adults, they will choose poorly and end up as abusers or victims, or both. 

Today will be introspection.

[Lucky Jim]

Nicely said, Harri.  So many are affected by the fallout from BPD.  There's no easy answer and no one-size-fits-all solution, in my view.  I guess what I would say is that each person has to find the right path for him/herself.  I was miserable for years in a marriage to a pwBPD, yet was so beaten down that I lacked the strength to leave.  Only an intervention conducted by two kind friends and a family member allowed me to get over the hump of leaving.

Sam: I find the subject line for your post interesting, because it suggests that you are more worried about hurting someone else's feelings than you are about hurting yourself.  I should know, because I once espoused this view.  Yet I came to see that saving others at the expense of oneself was a flawed strategy borne out of a lack of self-love, self-respect and self-acceptance.

It's hard to think clearly, though, when you're in the toxic BPD soup.  I would suggest that the longer one stays, the longer one is exposed to a toxic element, akin to lead or mercury poisoning.  Suggest you don your radiation suit and be careful, Samwize.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

Nailed it Lucky Jim.  I look at my career path and it fits.  Military, religious missionary service, firefighting, now in law enforcement.  Duty, honor, self-sacrifice.  There's a lot of self-preservation in training, but, it sums up that I am putting others first and willing to die for the cause.

And, yes, it's almost too long in this marriage to see clearly anymore.  I think things have gotten better over the past year since I've really gotten more aware, and am able to enforce boundaries and have a strong sense of self.  Nevertheless, it's been 18+ years of blame, guilt, projection, rejection, anger, and so on, so, I question my version of the facts. 

I have done wonders trusting my gut.  Right now it doesn't say go for divorce, but, I continue to save some money and prepare in the meantime.

[Lucky Jim]

I have done wonders trusting my gut.  Right now it doesn't say go for divorce, but, I continue to save some money and prepare in the meantime.

Sounds like a good plan, Sam.  Many years ago, before marriage, I ignored my gut feelings about my r/s with my BPDxW, which lead to a lot of trouble down the line.  You, on the other hand, are listening to your gut feelings, which I encourage and admire.  Keep it up!  The gut is often a better guide than the brain, in my experience.

LJ

[teapay]

Sam,

I've had similar career choices too, also doing many of those you mentioned.  They do require some degree of self sacrifice and duty.  The honor comes from the self sacrifice and duty.  Bpd often take advantage of othere vulnerabilities.  I wouldn't say those are vulnerabilities, but can BPD take still advantage of these if they are not tempered by other qualities.  I doubt I'd walk away from them.

Your gut probably has its reasons.  If your decision is to stay, in the context of that intentional decision, what other things can you do to make your life and your kids life better.  You mentioned you made lot of progress in the last year, but you sound alittle stuck at this point.  Where are you moving that progress next for you betterment regardless of your wife.  Are you afraid that continuing to push for self development and your own needs and desires in the context of staying will blow the family up?  That might happen.  Even though the BPD is a dependent personality some can't handle not having control of certain things and will explode/implode. However it sounds like you are pretty close to leaving anyway, so why not try to change the stays quo to more of your liking or in the direction you know is right at least for as long as you stay.  It'll probably be stressful but isn't it anyway.

[earlgrey]

I was miserable for years in a marriage to a pwBPD, yet was so beaten down that I lacked the strength to leave.  Only an intervention conducted by two kind friends and a family member allowed me to get over the hump of leaving.


LuckyJim

@LJ I fully get this - my hump is BIG

I do not want to side track the thread, but can I ask you all, however much work we do on ourselves, however much clearer things become, is finding the strenght to leave a natural consequence of this work.

In other words if we haven't done the work, leaving is always going to be too dificult.

And likewise, full of self love and acceptance leaving is a much easier affair.

Thanks to everyone EG.

[teapay]

Earl,

The short answer for many people is yes it is part of the self work.  People who are isolated and ignorant are vulnerable to BPDs.  You've made a beginning now in that you have some knowledge and support from these boards.  If you don't have someone locally, I'd suggest getting yourself a T to help guide you and gradually learn from others how to implement boundaries and work the other tools.  Lastly It takes guts and courage to make some changes because the BPD is likely to react.  I found I had to come to terms with ending the marriage before I was able to pursue the changes and things I wanted for the family.  Otherwise the BPD might simply push the non to the caving point and the non will capitulate.