Things a borderline would say?

[inthemeantime22]

Hi,

I don't know if this is just something an ex would say or if this is true for a borderline so please give your input.

Is it common for borderlines to say they loved you at the time they said "I love you"? As in it was only in that moment and now it's gone?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Yes.

A pwBPD loves you very much, until you trigger their abandonment or engulfment fears.  Then it is difficult to feel safe with you again.

They don't plan on you triggering these fears, or anticipate the anger they will feel toward you when you do.  They do not have a "bait and switch" master plan.

They, after all, are afraid of being alone.  They only get angry and rage you when they believe that you are going to make that happen to them.  They don't secretly recruit you for the job of keeping them company with the intention of abusing you.

BPD is a lot like complex PTSD.  (I understand that maybe psychologists considered merging the two in the DSM?  Not sure.)  Everything is great until something triggers that panic response, then they go into a sort of auto pilot mode to reduce the stress.  Once you become associated with that stress, it's hard for that person to ever feel that sort of love and comfort with you again.

So yes, it would be accurate to say that they loved you at the time.

[JerryRG]

My exgf said she loved me, then she didn't, then she couldn't, she wanted to get married, then she didn't, then she never wanted to be in a relationship, then she did, then we started talking about the weather. Nothing my ex said made any sense and trying to understand her is/was a complete waste of time unless one is a psychiatrist or psychologist and really want a headache

[sweet tooth]

My exgf said she loved me, then she didn't, then she couldn't, she wanted to get married, then she didn't, then she never wanted to be in a relationship, then she did, then we started talking about the weather. Nothing my ex said made any sense and trying to understand her is/was a complete waste of time unless one is a psychiatrist or psychologist and really want a headache

Yes. Mine said she didn't want a relationship but acted like we were a couple... .then said we weren't a couple during the discard. Totally unfair and confusing.

[Leonis]

My exgf said she loved me, then she didn't, then she couldn't, she wanted to get married, then she didn't, then she never wanted to be in a relationship, then she did, then we started talking about the weather. Nothing my ex said made any sense and trying to understand her is/was a complete waste of time unless one is a psychiatrist or psychologist and really want a headache

Lol exactly what my ex had said to me during my relationship/breakup.

[sweet tooth]

IHow funny would it be if some of us were involved with the same women and didn't even realize it? Like, if we were each other's replacements?

[Leonis]

IHow funny would it be if some of us were involved with the same women and didn't even realize it? Like, if we were each other's replacements?

It's quite possible. I live in the Rocky Mountain regions. But, as far as I know, all her exes are married already.

[JQ]

IHow funny would it be if some of us were involved with the same women and didn't even realize it? Like, if we were each other's replacements?

You know Sweet tooth, that thought has crossed my mind more than once after reading more than one post here in the forums.  I have learned that this is a VERY small world and it would not surprise me if that was to happen.  Fact is stranger then fiction without a doubt ... .my exBPDgf lives in the midwest ... .as a matter of fact, both my exBPDgf's live in the midwest ... .

J

[Wantingtochange]

JQ. Mine is in the Midwest also... oh no... .

[schwing]

Hi Inthemeantime22,

Here's my 2 bits on the subject.  And I am not a profession so this is from a lay perspective but I've read a bit on the subject so... .read stuff and correct me if I get things wrong.

This behavior relates to their "lack of object constancy."  A good way to think of it is this: when we were all infant/toddlers we *developed* object constancy.  That is, we got to a stage of mental/emotional development when we realized that when someone covers up their face when playing "peek-a-boo" they still exist when they are hiding behind the cloth.  For really young toddlers, this game is amusing because in their mind/stage of mental development, we sudden cease to exist when we are hiding and the suddenly exist when we show ourselves.  This is the key observation: when someone is not in view, they cease to exist in the mind of the toddler.  This is why toddlers get pretty upset when they can't see/touch mom-dad during that stage of development -- they behave as if they are about to be *abandoned*.   They cry-get upset until mom-dad make themselves available; and then all is well.  

Anyway... .when we develop object constancy, we get comfortable with the idea that when mom-dad isn't immediately available, they don't suddenly cease to exist; they are perhaps around the corner, or some where else. We get comfortable with the idea that we will see them later on and to not be so distressed until then.  The older we get, the further away we can be during that time-space separation; we realize that mom-dad still love us even though we can't immediately see-them, touch-them, etc.  The "object" (mom-dad) remains "constant" in our mind.

People with BPD (pwBPD) *lack object constancy.*  Such that when they are not immediately with you, they deal with the anxiety that perhaps we no longer love them and that we will abandon them (not unlike the young toddler's anxiety I describe above).  This is why they have their intense fear of abandonment.

Here's a quote from wikipedia on "object constancy":

Object constancy, similar to Jean Piaget's object permanence, describes the phase when the child understands that the mother has a separate identity and is truly a separate individual. This leads to the formation of internalization, which is the internal representation that the child has formed of the mother. This Internalization is what provides the child with an image that helps supply them with an unconscious level of guiding support and comfort from their mothers. Deficiencies in positive Internalization could possibly lead to a sense of insecurity and low self-esteem issues in adulthood.[4]

So when we don't develop object constancy, we never *internalize* this understanding of mom-dad and us.

Is it common for borderlines to say they loved you at the time they said "I love you"? As in it was only in that moment and now it's gone?

I think that when pwBPD say that they "love" you at the time that they are with you, they truly mean it.  But because they *lack object constancy* when you are out-of-sight, their "love" is challenged because without our presence to reinforce this attachment, they can become overwhelmed with the idea that our love has ceased to exist.  Without "object constancy" if we are not their to sooth their anxiety, they may become overwhelmed with their anxiety to the point that they seek a *new* object, our "replacement."  And when they have a new "object", we as their "object" ceases to exist.  And in that way, they do stop "loving" us.

Because we have "object constancy" we keep track of our different attachments.  We love mom-dad "this" much and that is unaffected by how much we love Stacy.  And how much we love Debby (our ex of 5 years) is different from Stacy because they are different people.  But when you *lack object constancy* there is only one *object* at one time.  When mom-dad is the "object" our attachment to Stacy or Debby doesn't exist.  And when we switch to Debby, our attachment to Stacy or mom-dad ceases to exist, etc... .

So when your borderline says they love you, it is for that moment.  And for as long as they "love" someone else, that moment is gone.  Unless/until they recycle you.  Then they can love you again... until... .

Does this make sense?

Best wishes, Schwing

[Meili]

Thank you for that explanation Schwing. It always amazed me at how quickly I was discarded, but that helps me understand how and why.

[Fr4nz]

IHow funny would it be if some of us were involved with the same women and didn't even realize it? Like, if we were each other's replacements?

You know Sweet tooth, that thought has crossed my mind more than once after reading more than one post here in the forums.  I have learned that this is a VERY small world and it would not surprise me if that was to happen.  Fact is stranger then fiction without a doubt ... .my exBPDgf lives in the midwest ... .as a matter of fact, both my exBPDgf's live in the midwest ... .

J

Eheh, add to this that BPD sufferers represent the 2% of the population, and it becomes a real possibility!

[Akita]

My BPDw says she loves people if she is thinking about them or is in physical proximity.  She says if she isnt thinking about me and I'm not there then I no longer exist and she can't love what doesn't exist so therefore she doesn't love me.  Love isn't constant for her.  Certain things have to happen for her to feel love like warm fuzzy thoughts or physical presence of the person.  This all goes out the window if she's angry or distressed by the person though... .you can't feel hatred toward someone you love.  She says I love u sporadically.  She doesn't have it on auto response... .a lot of the time if I say it she just stares at me... .deciding if I mean it or if I'm trying to manipulate her with my nice words.  Even if we were just intimate... .

[SummerStorm]

My exgf said she loved me, then she didn't, then she couldn't, she wanted to get married, then she didn't, then she never wanted to be in a relationship, then she did, then we started talking about the weather. Nothing my ex said made any sense and trying to understand her is/was a complete waste of time unless one is a psychiatrist or psychologist and really want a headache

Yes, this really is it, in a nutshell, isn't it?  I chuckled at the "talking about the weather" part, but that's also very true.  Having an extended conversation with them about something, especially something serious, is nearly impossible.  

But to answer the OP, yes, this is very common.  A year ago (tomorrow will be exactly one year, actually), I said to my pwBPD, while she was in the hospital and was lucid and willing to talk, "Why did you tell me that you wanted all of those things if you didn't?  I don't understand."  She replied, "I did want those things... .sometimes."  She kept going back and forth between me and her boyfriend.  "I won't love again if he ever leaves me" would be followed a day or two later with her telling me, "I love you so much.  I want to live with you."  I think the first discard (which happened after we decided to never be anything more than just friends) was her attempt at trying to make things stable.  When she wrote to me six weeks later, she even told me that it would be "best for her" if I didn't contact her again.  The only problem is that her fear of engulfment kicked in with her boyfriend a few weeks later, and she also dumped him and very quickly moved on to a string of new boyfriends and short flings.  

[Akita]

My wife doesn't jump to and from relationships.  She is very closed off with regards to that.  She had childhood sexual abuse by multiple people male and female and she experienced abuse as an adult.  She has zero desire to be involved with people in any way... .she generally states she hates all people and becomes consumed by feelings of everyone is trying to hurt her.  She wants me to save her.  She wants me to make her feel normal.  She wants me to free her from her anguish.  Until she hates me and tells me to get out.

[Ab123]

I'm convinced my exbfw/uBPD means everything he says to me, when he says it. Love, commitment, marriage, travel plans, relationships with my kids/family. But, as others have said, it can all change instantly, like a toddler's mood swings.

The push pull is awful for us nons, but it must be confusing and terrible for the pw/BPD too.

I must say that it makes it terribly painful when he still reaches out, expressing love, sorrow, etc, because I know, at that moment, he is in pain. But, I can't fix it. And, if I were single and I went back, I'm sure he'd run, sooner or later.

[Leonis]

My wife doesn't jump to and from relationships.  She is very closed off with regards to that.  She had childhood sexual abuse by multiple people male and female and she experienced abuse as an adult.  She has zero desire to be involved with people in any way... .she generally states she hates all people and becomes consumed by feelings of everyone is trying to hurt her.  She wants me to save her.  She wants me to make her feel normal.  She wants me to free her from her anguish.  Until she hates me and tells me to get out.

My ex was abused as a child. She doesn't trust relationships, especially after seeing the way her parents turned out. However, it doesn't stop her to make these half-baked attempts to get close via "fake it to make it".

She has been engaged three times, I was the third. There were some pretty BS reasons she threw in to why she felt insecure and fear in the relationship. I can only imagine the stress she gave to the guy #2 as the first guy she was engaged to dumped her instead due to some value differences.

[Akita]

Mine BPDw had 4 guys willing to marry her but things fell apart.  She was frightened by the idea of tying herself through marriage.  Plus she feared the obligations that come with marriage.  She lived with family before she married me and only lived a total of 8 months without family.  She is in her late 30s.  She seriously dated a guy for 6 of those months so a total of 2 months on her own.  She relies heavily on family for support.

[JQ]

Hello inthemeantime,

You've received some really good information here from a variety of people. I will say my experience is very much along the same line as many have described here and there is the lack of object constancy.  As someone mentioned does trigger the fear of abandonment and the push / pull thing all begins, which leads to recycle and leads to, well nothing good comes after that.

During a couple of moments of clarity, my exBPDgf would say, "I love you" and I would see in her eyes that she actually did believe and mean what she said, AT THAT MOMENT.  Within 30 minutes later we were having a "serious conversation" about the r/s and what we wanted, where we wanted it to go and then out of no where in a nano second she was onto a non stressful subject like the "weather".  Wait?  What?  And she continued down the non stressful conversation. I tried to steer the conversation back to the "r/s" and she would steer it back to yet another conversation on how she liked tomato soup with grilled cheese sandwiches for dinner.  She has learned, honed her skills of avoiding difficult subjects that "stress" her out. This is very common behavior for a BPD to do so I've come to learn. It's a way to avoid everything from shame, fear of abandonment, or 1/2  a dozen other feelings they don't want to feel.

You have read examples of how the behavior of our respective BPD r/s is very much like a 3 yr old toddler such as Ab123 describes.  BPD's are behaviorally stunted at the 3 yr old toddler stage. Can you see how your BPD raging is like that of a 3 yr old in the grocery store who's parent says no to something the toddler wanted like a toy or candy and the toddler rages, screams, etc. You give into the 3 yr old toddler & give them their candy and they rage for something else. You give in to your BPD and give her a ring, or give into a request for him (if your BPD is a man) like moving across the state, country and they still rage at you?  Can you see how a toddler / young child who is angry with another child friend yells out I don't like you anymore and goes across the room to play with someone they've never played with and now as an adult they yell at you and go across the room, the bar, the internet to play with someone they've never have before?

Now this is not to say that they can't be successful in their profession, mine is very successful, makes 6 figures a year for a Fortune 200 company but like a vast majority of those who are mentally ill with BPD, she has impulse control issues and spends money like crazy with not much to show for it. She's tens of thousands of dollars in debt. She is very highly educated with an Ivy league degree & 2 Masters. Bad BPD behavior is not to be confused with intelligence of the person. She abuses alcohol like a drunk sailor to cope with moods and bad feelings.

BPD is a very serious Cluster B Mental / Behavioral Illness with very little hope for any "management" of it much less anything else. We as NON's are very logical, we find it so difficult to understand why would someone behave in such a way to cause us pain and at the same time continue to cause the BPD themselves so much pain?  It's the nature of the mental illness. Stop trying to understand it and apply logic to the entire situation.

Instead work on yourself, find out why you are possibly a NON or a Codependent and learn to have a better healthier r/s. Find happiness in living YOUR life for YOURSELF and don't try to find happiness in trying to "cure" or "help" someone who has a mental illness.

Then and only then can you find happiness that you seek.

J

[Leonis]

Mine BPDw had 4 guys willing to marry her but things fell apart.  She was frightened by the idea of tying herself through marriage.  Plus she feared the obligations that come with marriage.  She lived with family before she married me and only lived a total of 8 months without family.  She is in her late 30s.  She seriously dated a guy for 6 of those months so a total of 2 months on her own.  She relies heavily on family for support.

Haha. My ex told me during our breakup process something similar: the fear of commitment. She couldn't "pretend" that long, especially if kids are involved.

Mine actually left her family as soon as she turned 18 due to her experience with her mom (the abuser), but always orbited around them for her younger siblings who are still in the house. She was the middle child of 7. She still has 2 younger siblings in the house that she's constantly worried about. Other than that, only the oldest brother lives at home.

[Nuitari]

My BPDw says she loves people if she is thinking about them or is in physical proximity.  She says if she isnt thinking about me and I'm not there then I no longer exist and she can't love what doesn't exist so therefore she doesn't love me.  Love isn't constant for her.  Certain things have to happen for her to feel love like warm fuzzy thoughts or physical presence of the person.  This all goes out the window if she's angry or distressed by the person though... .you can't feel hatred toward someone you love.  She says I love u sporadically.  She doesn't have it on auto response... .a lot of the time if I say it she just stares at me... .deciding if I mean it or if I'm trying to manipulate her with my nice words.  Even if we were just intimate... .

My ex actually told me the same thing about her husband. She was seeing me while he was away in another state because of the military. She said it was like he didn't exist. She said she didn't miss him or think about him. Its like she forgot that he existed. She mentioned to me one day that her marriage had always been a happy one. I was very surprised to hear this. I asked her why she pursued me if she was in a happy marriage. I'll never forget her response. She said "Because I was attracted to you, and my husband was away." That was the extent of her thought process. She was attracted to me and her husband was away. That's all the motivation she needed. The casual way she said it makes me think she didn't even realize how shallow of an answer it was. In her mind it was a perfectly reasonable motivation.

[sweet tooth]

My BPDw says she loves people if she is thinking about them or is in physical proximity.  She says if she isnt thinking about me and I'm not there then I no longer exist and she can't love what doesn't exist so therefore she doesn't love me.  Love isn't constant for her.  Certain things have to happen for her to feel love like warm fuzzy thoughts or physical presence of the person.  This all goes out the window if she's angry or distressed by the person though... .you can't feel hatred toward someone you love.  She says I love u sporadically.  She doesn't have it on auto response... .a lot of the time if I say it she just stares at me... .deciding if I mean it or if I'm trying to manipulate her with my nice words.  Even if we were just intimate... .

My ex actually told me the same thing about her husband. She was seeing me while he was away in another state because of the military. She said it was like he didn't exist. She said she didn't miss him or think about him. Its like she forgot that he existed. She mentioned to me one day that her marriage had always been a happy one. I was very surprised to hear this. I asked her why she pursued me if she was in a happy marriage. I'll never forget her response. She said "Because I was attracted to you, and my husband was away." That was the extent of her thought process. She was attracted to me and her husband was away. That's all the motivation she needed. The casual way she said it makes me think she didn't even realize how shallow of an answer it was. In her mind it was a perfectly reasonable motivation.

Out of sight = out of mind

Poor object constancy

[NCEA]

Yes, I've always felt this. Whenever she was busy with work, she'd forget me.

My BPDw says she loves people if she is thinking about them or is in physical proximity.  She says if she isnt thinking about me and I'm not there then I no longer exist and she can't love what doesn't exist so therefore she doesn't love me.  Love isn't constant for her.  Certain things have to happen for her to feel love like warm fuzzy thoughts or physical presence of the person.  This all goes out the window if she's angry or distressed by the person though... .you can't feel hatred toward someone you love.  She says I love u sporadically.  She doesn't have it on auto response... .a lot of the time if I say it she just stares at me... .deciding if I mean it or if I'm trying to manipulate her with my nice words.  Even if we were just intimate... .

My ex actually told me the same thing about her husband. She was seeing me while he was away in another state because of the military. She said it was like he didn't exist. She said she didn't miss him or think about him. Its like she forgot that he existed. She mentioned to me one day that her marriage had always been a happy one. I was very surprised to hear this. I asked her why she pursued me if she was in a happy marriage. I'll never forget her response. She said "Because I was attracted to you, and my husband was away." That was the extent of her thought process. She was attracted to me and her husband was away. That's all the motivation she needed. The casual way she said it makes me think she didn't even realize how shallow of an answer it was. In her mind it was a perfectly reasonable motivation.

Out of sight = out of mind

Poor object constancy