The insidious F.O.G.

[Wize]

F.O.G. is the one area of my BPD wife's disorder that I hold against her personally, because I believe it's a conscious choice.  She preyed upon my good conscience and character and used my own values against me to control me. She was able to manipulate me because she knew I was a good person.  She used that against me.  That's evil.

[ArleighBurke]

"Conscious choice" is an interesting term.

Is it your conscious choice to breathe? You can control it, you can influence it, you can stop (for a while). But it's how you get air - you don't know any other way. And when you are busy doing ANYTHING else, you do it unconsciously.

Yes she could probably control it, and when she was in a low emotional state she probably did. But when she was even a little emotional I'm sure she couldn't control it. It was as natural as breathing.

I'm sure there are things you may disagree with that you can't stop. Do you get sarcastic when angry? Do you yell? You may "know" they are wrong, but in the moment you do them anyway. And trying to change them takes a LOT of effort.

But I think people with BPD cannot actually see that what they do is wrong. I think they have such a fragile image of themselves that even admitting to being wrong would be like death. I truely believe they are blind to it.

[Meili]

"Conscious choice" is an interesting term.

Is it your conscious choice to breathe? You can control it, you can influence it, you can stop (for a while). But it's how you get air - you don't know any other way. And when you are busy doing ANYTHING else, you do it unconsciously.

Yes she could probably control it, and when she was in a low emotional state she probably did. But when she was even a little emotional I'm sure she couldn't control it. It was as natural as breathing.

I'm sure there are things you may disagree with that you can't stop. Do you get sarcastic when angry? Do you yell? You may "know" they are wrong, but in the moment you do them anyway. And trying to change them takes a LOT of effort.

But I think people with BPD cannot actually see that what they do is wrong. I think they have such a fragile image of themselves that even admitting to being wrong would be like death. I truely believe they are blind to it.

This^^^

[Larmoyant]

I have a difficult time believing that pwBPD cannot see that what they do is wrong and are blind to it. We all tend to agree that it’s wrong to lie, deceive and cheat on someone don’t we? I believe we all have some sort of understanding that doing this would hurt another person, BPD included.

My ex would accuse me of cheating all the time (unfounded) and interrogate me mercilessly about it, calling me deceitful, a liar, etc. So clearly he knew it was wrong if I had been the one cheating. What about himself? I think he could see quite clearly that cheating on me was wrong, but it was a case of one rule for him and another one for me.  That probably didn’t make much sense.

What I mean is I think he did know what he was doing was wrong. He also knew that raging at me was wrong. He once said to me that he could see himself raging, knew it was hurting me, but couldn’t seem to stop himself. He might not have been able to control it, I don’t know, and I have my doubts, but he did know it was wrong. I believe that he knew he hurt me over and over then set about blaming me for everything as an excuse to cover himself.

[ArleighBurke]

Agreed.

When I yell at my kids (because sometimes they can be little $%^&* terrors), I know it's wrong - even when i'm doing it. I WANT to stop. But I can't. My emotions take over. I TRY to calm my mind, but normally I keep yelling.

And then i justify my actions after. "It was OK to yell because the kids were annoying, and I didn't hit them, and my wife yells at them too". All these things lessen my "guilt". I can "transfer" the blame to make me feel better.

I'm a non. And if *I* have a hard time managing my emotions, imagine what a BPD with emotions 100x times stronger than mine has... .And she tries to lessen her guilt just the same.

[Wize]

I truely believe they are blind to it.

Let me give you an example of something my BPDxwife did.  She triangulated me with my sisters and manipulated them by telling them lies about me.  One day she was at my sisters house hanging out.  My sister was in the shower and my wife took my sister's cell phone and sent messages from my sister to my wife's phone saying things like "I'm so sorry you have to put up with my abusive brother, he's sick" "you're such a strong woman for hanging in there with my brother, he's always had issues."

My wife would freely let me check her cell phone and texts because I never really trusted her.  My sisters stop talking to my wife after they found out what she did. 

Now, was my wife blind to what she did? Did she not know that it was wrong to send fake messages as a means to manipulate and control me.  To me, she knew it was wrong as she had to sneak to do it, she lied, she's evil or maybe, she just has evil inside her. 

[Confused?]

Borderlines will do anything to get you to show the amount of commitment you have for them. Remember they do not feel loved by you. They do not feel good enough to be loved because they hate theirselves. They have constant fears of abandonment and certain triggers will set anything off and their impulse will reflect on actions. I'm not by any means excusing their actions. My ex cheated on and replaced me. Was it wrong? Yes. But in her eyes the relationship was over. Too much happend and she sought an outlet. It's her defense mechanism. Rather than addressing the issues and working on them she chose to start over and try again with someone new. Admitting it was her to blame would literally destroy her.

[Wize]

Admitting it was her to blame would literally destroy her.

But why?  Is it some chain reaction thing? If they admit one wrong doing then it sets off a chain of realizations and they soon discover that their whole lives are a disaster zone of abuse, lies and abhorrent behavior?  I understand it's a pathological thing with pwBPD to always deflect blame, I just don't understand it.

[Dhand77]

Admitting it was her to blame would literally destroy her.

But why?  Is it some chain reaction thing? If they admit one wrong doing then it sets off a chain of realizations and they soon discover that their whole lives are a disaster zone of abuse, lies and abhorrent behavior?  I understand it's a pathological thing with pwBPD to always deflect blame, I just don't understand it.

I don't understand it either. How can someone just go through life actively lying to themselves like that? They HAVE to be aware of it on some basic level.

[Confused?]

Admitting it was her to blame would literally destroy her.

But why?  Is it some chain reaction thing? If they admit one wrong doing then it sets off a chain of realizations and they soon discover that their whole lives are a disaster zone of abuse, lies and abhorrent behavior?  I understand it's a pathological thing with pwBPD to always deflect blame, I just don't understand it.

Take my ex for example. Her mother was very abusive. She grew up in an all around horrible environment. Nothing she did was ever good enough. Borderlines have an incredibly low self worth. So to admit a wrong doing would be terrible for someone that already thinks they can do no right and also thinks that poorly of themselves. That's where blame shifting comes into play.

[Confused?]

Or you can even use an everyday analogy. Say you are a kid in school (exBPD). You are about to take a math test (relationship). You have failed every test so far this year. You feel like a failure. Your dad or mom (you) will surely scold you if you fail another test. You have tried everything but you just don't know how to pass the test. You lack the skills to pass. So what do you do? You cheat on the test. You get caught and you start blaming everyone else but yourself. You blame the school system (society) for not teaching you good enough. You blame your parents for not helping. You blame everyone but yourself because you are just incapable of passing that math test. There is a reason that in the definition of BPD it says a series of unstable relationships. They are just incapable of have a healthy adult relationship.

[vortex of confusion]

Admitting it was her to blame would literally destroy her.

But why?  Is it some chain reaction thing? If they admit one wrong doing then it sets off a chain of realizations and they soon discover that their whole lives are a disaster zone of abuse, lies and abhorrent behavior?  I understand it's a pathological thing with pwBPD to always deflect blame, I just don't understand it.

For some reason, this made me think of how it is a kid's first impulse to say "she did it". It isn't some kind of overly complicated manipulation. It is an instinct of self protection. A lot of the stuff that I have read has said that PD's are a result of arrested development. They resort back to that childlike state of trying to deny things because they are so afraid of getting in trouble. I can see why stbx would be afraid of getting in trouble given how his mom is.

[Wize]

For some reason, this made me think of how it is a kid's first impulse to say "she did it". It isn't some kind of overly complicated manipulation. It is an instinct of self protection. A lot of the stuff that I have read has said that PD's are a result of arrested development. They resort back to that childlike state of trying to deny things because they are so afraid of getting in trouble. I can see why stbx would be afraid of getting in trouble given how his mom is.

This actually makes a lot of sense.  Thank you.

"I didn't do it, I didn't do it."  That's my wife right there. Deflection.

[Larmoyant]

I'm still finding it difficult understanding this. I get that blaming others for the cruel stuff they do could be a defence to protect themselves and I can understand that seeking out other love interests could also be a defence if they are fearing abandonment, but what about raging, physical abuse, verbal abuse, nasty insinuations, false allegations, insults, devaluing, etc. How are these things self-protective? He surely knows that these things hurt me and is not blind to them. If he doesn't know that these things are wrong then how can he be held accountable? It's like a get out of jail free card. What am I missing here please?

[vortex of confusion]

I'm still finding it difficult understanding this. I get that blaming others for the cruel stuff they do could be a defence to protect themselves and I can understand that seeking out other love interests could also be a defence if they are fearing abandonment, but what about raging, physical abuse, verbal abuse, nasty insinuations, false allegations, insults, devaluing, etc. How are these things self-protective? He surely knows that these things hurt me and is not blind to them. If he doesn't know that these things are wrong then how can he be held accountable? It's like a get out of jail free card. What am I missing here please?

Think about the grade school play ground and how bullies act. Bullies aren't big and bad. They are actually quite hurt. That doesn't make it right for one second though. It is a point of reference to help demonstrate that it doesn't make a lot of sense and the easiest way for me to understand it is to look at child development.

These things are self protective because they push people away. If they hurt you, lash out at you, and find new and creative ways to push you away, then they don't have to worry about you hurting them. If they are devaluing you or painting you black, that helps them to justify the crappy treatment.

It is NOT a get out of jail free card. The difficult part is finding ways to protect yourself from all of this. You can't rely on them to look after you, protect you, or have your best interest at heart. That is up to you to figure out.

He may know that those things hurt you yet is powerless to stop himself because he is so self centered that, in the moment, he isn't thinking of anyone but himself. I see that with my ex all the time. He cannot seem to think of anyone but himself. He knows that stuff hurts me. He knows that he has done a lot of stuff to hurt me over the years. There was one day recently when this was brought up because I couldn't handle him being so crappy. It was a mess. I don't remember his exact words but he was telling me how great I am and then telling me he has no idea why he treats me so horribly. He could completely acknowledge his behavior but seems completely powerless to do anything about it. I have stopped trying to understand it and have started trying to find ways to make it stop. It has been much more difficult than I thought it would be because there have been days that it seems that he is hell bent on saying and doing things to hurt me.

[Nuitari]

Borderlines will do anything to get you to show the amount of commitment you have for them. Remember they do not feel loved by you. They do not feel good enough to be loved because they hate theirselves. They have constant fears of abandonment and certain triggers will set anything off and their impulse will reflect on actions. I'm not by any means excusing their actions. My ex cheated on and replaced me. Was it wrong? Yes. But in her eyes the relationship was over. Too much happend and she sought an outlet. It's her defense mechanism. Rather than addressing the issues and working on them she chose to start over and try again with someone new. Admitting it was her to blame would literally destroy her.

Reading this just gave me some insight into some of my ex's behavior. Her husband was away in the military, and I guess she felt abandoned. I was his replacement. She spoke highly of her husband and said that they had always had a happy marriage, which really puzzled me. When I asked her why she pursued me if she were in a happy marriage, she would always bring up the fact that her husband hardly called her. I always thought that kind of a silly thing to end a marriage over. But now I suspect that his infrequent phone calls triggered some abandonment fears, and she had to sooth herself by immediately finding someone else and starting over. She made me believe that she was going to leave him for me. I guess maybe she believed it herself. But when the husband returned, her attitude changed. I suddenly was expected to prove my love to her. It was like I was being tested. It was no longer about her leaving him to be with me, but about me "rescuing" her from him. She said that if I really loved her I should be doing more to get her.  I think she was actually trying to encourage conflict between me and husband. I wasn't going for it. But in the end it didn't matter because the husband saw it fit to go out of his way to get me fired from my job despite my best efforts to remove myself from the situation. I wasn't some evil guy who was trying to steal his wife away from him. But it was as if the two of them decided to force me into that role anyway, and I got punished for it. Their marriage, from all appearances, significantly improved after this. I think my ex saw this vindictive act of her husband's as proof of his love for her, because afterwards any doubts about this on her end were gone. So evidently, when a marriage starts to go sour, ruining the life of a third party somehow fixes it.

[Nuitari]

Going back to the accountability issue, I get that shame and guilt are powerful motivators for the pwBPD to lie and/or shift blame, but what I'm finding hard to understand is why they continue doing those things if they are so shameful. I've seen it first hand with my ex. She cheated on her husband with me while he was away, have brief episodes of guilt about it, but then it would pass. I asked her once if she felt guilty about what she was doing. She just laughed and said "Hell no." But then there were other times when I could see her struggle with the shame. The shame always seemed triggered by something (if someone calls her out on something, having to lie about where she's been, etc.) Otherwise it wasn't there. After her husband's return home, she didn't hesitate to jump back into bed with him. She would deny sleeping with him to my face, probably to avoid shame (because she knew sleeping with him so soon after professing her undying love for me was a very low and hurtful thing to do.) I don't doubt she felt some guilt over her actions and the lies that followed, but it never stopped her from continuing those same actions and lies. So why don't they learn from the shame? Why do they continue the shameful behavior?

[Fr4nz]

Going back to the accountability issue, I get that shame and guilt are powerful motivators for the pwBPD to lie and/or shift blame, but what I'm finding hard to understand is why they continue doing those things if they are so shameful.

Poor impulse control and childish emotional skills, which are BPD's hallmarks.

[atomic popsicles]

My goodness. That's  why my ex's mantra was " It's not my fault". Wow.

[vortex of confusion]

So why don't they learn from the shame? Why do they continue the shameful behavior?

There is an interesting article about shame on the BPD family site at: https://bpdfamily.com/content/shame-powerful-painful-and-potentially-dangerous-emotion

I think this quote at the beginning of the article sums it up:

Unlike guilt, which is the feeling of doing something wrong, shame is the feeling of being something wrong.

I have seen this with stbx repeatedly. He feels shame when he does something bad yet that shame doesn't propel him to change. It simply confirms his negative view of himself. It confirms that he is worthless. As such, he feels powerless to make any changes. Then, he throws up his hands with this "why bother" attitude. The only thing that he seems to learn from the shame is that he is indeed a horrible human being.

[JerryRG]

My exgf said something revealing a few days ago that should have been evidence into her BPD, she said she thought her bf was leaving or he wouldn't stay so she pushed him and that caused the serious fight/abuse/jail incident. I said, DUH? You did that to me too!

She just shutdown with me and didn't connect the dots, I don't understand, my sponsor hits me with the truth and for a long time I actually cried but he had to be honest with me.

PwBPD don't seem to want to change?

[Fr4nz]

My exgf said something revealing a few days ago that should have been evidence into her BPD, she said she thought her bf was leaving or he wouldn't stay so she pushed him and that caused the serious fight/abuse/jail incident. I said, DUH? You did that to me too!

She just shutdown with me and didn't connect the dots, I don't understand, my sponsor hits me with the truth and for a long time I actually cried but he had to be honest with me.

PwBPD don't seem to want to change?

BPD is made up of very rigid, dysfunctional thoughts and behaviours, so the things you said don't suprise me at all

I think it takes a minimum amount of introspection, coupled with a lot of efforts, for a pwBPD to change.

[FallBack!Monster]

PwBPD don't seem to want to change?

Don't want to? or just cannot?

[HurtinNW]

Going back to the accountability issue, I get that shame and guilt are powerful motivators for the pwBPD to lie and/or shift blame, but what I'm finding hard to understand is why they continue doing those things if they are so shameful. I've seen it first hand with my ex. She cheated on her husband with me while he was away, have brief episodes of guilt about it, but then it would pass. I asked her once if she felt guilty about what she was doing. She just laughed and said "Hell no." But then there were other times when I could see her struggle with the shame. The shame always seemed triggered by something (if someone calls her out on something, having to lie about where she's been, etc.) Otherwise it wasn't there. After her husband's return home, she didn't hesitate to jump back into bed with him. She would deny sleeping with him to my face, probably to avoid shame (because she knew sleeping with him so soon after professing her undying love for me was a very low and hurtful thing to do.) I don't doubt she felt some guilt over her actions and the lies that followed, but it never stopped her from continuing those same actions and lies. So why don't they learn from the shame? Why do they continue the shameful behavior?

I think of the shame as too big for them to deal with. Many of us experience shame. I've had shame. But for my ex his shame is this huge, ego-destroying thing. It is so big he simply cannot face it. He denies it even exists. The few times I saw him begin to wrestle with it he was overwhelmed. So he lashed out and made it my fault.

As others have point out, healthy people feel shame about their bad behaviors. People with PDs feel shame about their core selves. That's the difference. They can't separate their behavior from their self. To fully own wrongdoing would mean convicting themselves of being absolutely worthless and without any good. Remember, they tend to engage in a lot of black and white thinking too.

It's sad. If my ex was able to own his smaller mistakes they wouldn't have blossomed into much larger, hurtful mistakes. By not facing any wrongdoing out of fear he was in fact a failure, he failed at the very thing he wanted the most: Love.

[FallBack!Monster]

HurtinNW-- Almost made me feel bad for my ex. ALMOST

[SoMadSoSad]

HurtinNW-- Almost made me feel bad for my ex. ALMOST

Hhahahaha

[Mutt]

For some reason, this made me think of how it is a kid's first impulse to say "she did it". It isn't some kind of overly complicated manipulation. It is an instinct of self protection. A lot of the stuff that I have read has said that PD's are a result of arrested development. They resort back to that childlike state of trying to deny things because they are so afraid of getting in trouble. I can see why stbx would be afraid of getting in trouble given how his mom is.

This actually makes a lot of sense.  Thank you.

"I didn't do it, I didn't do it."  That's my wife right there. Deflection.

It's projection. A primitive defense mechanism that isn't synonymous with BPD, it protects the ego from anxiety and stress, non's project as well. A pwBPD do it to the extreme.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

Read as much as you can about BPD to depersonalize the behaviors and become indifferent to them.

[Nuitari]

Going back to the accountability issue, I get that shame and guilt are powerful motivators for the pwBPD to lie and/or shift blame, but what I'm finding hard to understand is why they continue doing those things if they are so shameful. I've seen it first hand with my ex. She cheated on her husband with me while he was away, have brief episodes of guilt about it, but then it would pass. I asked her once if she felt guilty about what she was doing. She just laughed and said "Hell no." But then there were other times when I could see her struggle with the shame. The shame always seemed triggered by something (if someone calls her out on something, having to lie about where she's been, etc.) Otherwise it wasn't there. After her husband's return home, she didn't hesitate to jump back into bed with him. She would deny sleeping with him to my face, probably to avoid shame (because she knew sleeping with him so soon after professing her undying love for me was a very low and hurtful thing to do.) I don't doubt she felt some guilt over her actions and the lies that followed, but it never stopped her from continuing those same actions and lies. So why don't they learn from the shame? Why do they continue the shameful behavior?

I think of the shame as too big for them to deal with. Many of us experience shame. I've had shame. But for my ex his shame is this huge, ego-destroying thing. It is so big he simply cannot face it. He denies it even exists. The few times I saw him begin to wrestle with it he was overwhelmed. So he lashed out and made it my fault.

As others have point out, healthy people feel shame about their bad behaviors. People with PDs feel shame about their core selves. That's the difference. They can't separate their behavior from their self. To fully own wrongdoing would mean convicting themselves of being absolutely worthless and without any good. Remember, they tend to engage in a lot of black and white thinking too.

It's sad. If my ex was able to own his smaller mistakes they wouldn't have blossomed into much larger, hurtful mistakes. By not facing any wrongdoing out of fear he was in fact a failure, he failed at the very thing he wanted the most: Love.

My ex seemed to have the philosophy that an act isn't wrong if no one knows about it. As long as her activities were kept secret from others, there wasn't an ounce of shame. It was only when someone called her out on something, or when proof was found of her wrong doings, that the reality of her actions hit home for her. Then she was flooded with shame. But as long as all the relevant people were ignorant of what she was doing, she could care less.  Its like her actions aren't "real" until they're exposed. Otherwise she would deny to the death that she did this or that, as if she herself believed her lies, only to turn around and continue the same behavior without giving it a second thought.