It's been years ... I'm back

[Depression = 72% of members]

Since about 2012, I have managed to get more healthy.  Since then, I have been in a 2 year relationship with a woman who had some issues (as do I, obviously), but the relationship wasn't anything like the stuff I'd been through before.  She may have had some mood disorder or something, but it was a lasting, functioning, loving relationship at most times.  When she and I broke up, I grieved and stayed single for a while, and then I got into another relationship with a woman who also had some issues, but again, nothing full blown and no chaos.  Total love and respect even through the breakup.

So, I figured my BPD/NPD drama days were behind me.  Then in December this past year, I met a woman online.  Long story short, she love-bombed me and I fell hook, line and sinker.  Ignored red flags through this stage, and then 2 months in, I experienced extreme verbal abuse for the first time in my life.  I was confused as to what was happening, and I let it go on for 2 more months before I finally had to recognize that I am falling into my old relationship patterns (with abuse now being added to the mix), and had to walk away.  

So, I've made some progress.  I walked away.  But this is against every natural instinct in my body.  I'm ignoring her texts now, but can't lie that I get a kick out of her trying to contact me.  I won't go back.  My life now is way different than it was 6 years ago, and I really won't allow that type of chaos into it anymore.  And I definitely have gained enough self worth to say a huge NO to abuse.  Although I have to admit sometimes I wish I was in my 20s again and had nothing to lose, and could give into it.  Sometimes I really wish I could, so that at least I'd have feeling.

I have been reading old posts of mine on here, and I see a very angry, broken person (who was kicked off this site twice by administrators for my anger, mind you, and my starting new accounts every time I would get into a new toxic relationship to perhaps hide that it was a pattern for me).  

I don't recognize that person anymore ... .but I do.  The addiction to drama, the emptiness in my soul if I am not in an intimate relationship ... .it's all still there.  I just deal with it better these days because I'm older and wiser now, I know now that people look at me like I'm nuts and immature when I talk about it, and honestly most of it is because since back then, I've found my career calling, and so I have that to focus on - and that helps greatly.

But, when I come home from work to my apartment, to greet just my animals and sit in the silence of my room, I'm back to the emptiness.

I still don't know how to overcome this.  EVERYONE says that I need to be good with being alone, and fall in love with myself so that a relationship is just the icing on the cake.  But I just don't know HOW to do it.  I just don't.  I never have.  Anyone have the magic insight for me?  

[SoMuchPain]

Since about 2012, I have managed to get more healthy.  Since then, I have been in a 2 year relationship with a woman who had some issues (as do I, obviously), but the relationship wasn't anything like the stuff I'd been through before.  She may have had some mood disorder or something, but it was a lasting, functioning, loving relationship at most times.  When she and I broke up, I grieved and stayed single for a while, and then I got into another relationship with a woman who also had some issues, but again, nothing full blown and no chaos.  Total love and respect even through the breakup.

So, I figured my BPD/NPD drama days were behind me.  Then in December this past year, I met a woman online.  Long story short, she love-bombed me and I fell hook, line and sinker.  Ignored red flags through this stage, and then 2 months in, I experienced extreme verbal abuse for the first time in my life.  I was confused as to what was happening, and I let it go on for 2 more months before I finally had to recognize that I am falling into my old relationship patterns (with abuse now being added to the mix), and had to walk away.  

So, I've made some progress.  I walked away.  But this is against every natural instinct in my body.  I'm ignoring her texts now, but can't lie that I get a kick out of her trying to contact me.  I won't go back.  My life now is way different than it was 6 years ago, and I really won't allow that type of chaos into it anymore.  And I definitely have gained enough self worth to say a huge NO to abuse.  Although I have to admit sometimes I wish I was in my 20s again and had nothing to lose, and could give into it.  Sometimes I really wish I could, so that at least I'd have feeling.

I have been reading old posts of mine on here, and I see a very angry, broken person (who was kicked off this site twice by administrators for my anger, mind you, and my starting new accounts every time I would get into a new toxic relationship to perhaps hide that it was a pattern for me).  

I don't recognize that person anymore ... .but I do.  The addiction to drama, the emptiness in my soul if I am not in an intimate relationship ... .it's all still there.  I just deal with it better these days because I'm older and wiser now, I know now that people look at me like I'm nuts and immature when I talk about it, and honestly most of it is because since back then, I've found my career calling, and so I have that to focus on - and that helps greatly.

But, when I come home from work to my apartment, to greet just my animals and sit in the silence of my room, I'm back to the emptiness.

I still don't know how to overcome this.  EVERYONE says that I need to be good with being alone, and fall in love with myself so that a relationship is just the icing on the cake.  But I just don't know HOW to do it.  I just don't.  I never have.  Anyone have the magic insight for me?  

[heartandwhole]

Hi SoMuchPain,

I'm sorry that you are in a similar position again. That really hurts.   I wish I had a magic insight into how to break these patterns. I certainly can relate. It seems the older I get, the harder it is to find a healthy partner, and that just doesn't make sense to me. I once mentioned this to my T. How can I be so aware of my issues and then find myself with someone like pwBPD? She didn't really have an answer, but she said I wasn't alone. That several other of her clients were experiencing the same thing.

As you said, though, you caught it this time much more quickly and got out. I didn't stay very long with pwBPD either (the relationship was a LOT shorter than one I had had before him, with a very unavailable person). So, there has been progress and please don't forget to give yourself credit for learning and doing something different. It is said that our lessons in life come back over and over, but each time, we are a little wiser, a little stronger, and we learn something new about ourselves. It's not a flat circle, it's a spiral reaching higher. 

As for how to love ourselves. I think that is the challenge of most of us on here, and of course, the best question. I don't claim to have the answer, but I do have some thoughts about it. Think about this: if one of your beloved pets were injured quite badly or traumatized by an event, and it was unable to walk, breathing shallowly, maybe resting on its side, apparently in pain... .would you nag at it to get up and play with you? Would you ignore your pet and tell it to hurry up and get it together? Would you pity it or see it as pathetic and weak?

No, of course not. But that is what many of us do to ourselves when we are hurting, when we make a mistake, when we don't feel strong or "together." We can start to love ourselves, even "fake it till we make it," by caring for our scared, lost, and hurt parts as gently and compassionately as we would a small child or beloved pet. We can soothe ourselves by treating ourselves to something lovely and safe. We can ask for support from loved ones, or even professionals. We can allow that wiser part of ourselves to embrace these feelings that seem overwhelming. They will not kill us. The feelings just need to move through, you know?

In my experience, there is a part of us all that embraces whatever is happening without judgement. I tap into that place through silence, meditation, yoga, nature, creativity... .there are many ways. And actually, it is always there, so we don't really need to look for it. But sometimes we feel we can't find it, so certain kinds of activities seem to encourage that connection.

Anyway, these are my thoughts, SoMuchPain. What are your thoughts?

Thank you for sharing your growth with us. 

heartandwhole

[SoMuchPain]

Thank you so much for reaching out.

I absolutely love the pet analogy.  I actually tried this a couple years ago when I went through a tough break up that I did not want: I allowed myself to feel hurt, gave myself loving kindness, and was kind and soothing to the inner child within me.  It definitely helped me, and I will put that in my mind going forward when I am feeling like my inner being is crying out for help.  I can soothe her by putting her in some pajamas, making some tea, and sitting down to a good book or whatever is going to make her feel good at the moment (barring destructive behaviors that will feel good for 10 seconds, and then cause 10 more days of pain).  I need to start showing up for myself.  So, thank you for reminding me of this.

Ugh, growth hurts though.  It really does.  But I do feel like if I feel so achingly unhappy without a romantic partner, that has definitely got to be part of the problem with why I choose the partners that I do choose. 

I'm still shocked at myself that I actually walked away from someone.  I've never done it, and especially not someone who was soo into me, and probably would never have left me, ever.  But at the expense of what?  My happiness and sanity and health?  It wasn't worth it to me.  So, this is literally the first time I've even shown up for myself.  Ever.  5 years ago I chased my exBPD down until she hurt me so much I had absolutely no choice but to let go (mainly the only reason I truly let go was because she was onto someone else, if I have to be honest.  I would've just kept asking for more and more). 

So, needless to say, walking away is foreign territory to me.  I constantly second guess myself.  I have a very short memory when it comes to bad behavior, and I miss the "love" and attention.  Just need to keep reminding myself that I did this, for myself.   :'(

[joeramabeme]

Hi SoMuchPain

Sorry to hear what you are going through but glad you had the courage to come up and share what is going on with you.  I suppose that those of us who are working on overcoming some sort of emotional deficiency find it really hard to sit with being alone.

I think there is something hardwired in the human brain about belonging to a larger group of others - such as a tribe.  Nowadays, we all have our "independence" from one another, which at first seems sweet but can have a cutting edge to it, especially when you need a tribe.

EVERYONE says that I need to be good with being alone, and fall in love with myself so that a relationship is just the icing on the cake.

IMO, the above quote is nonsense.  You don't sit with yourself until you love yourself then find someone.  The FACT is, that we need to be in relationships with others, assimilate what we learn and then go back out and do it again and repeat.  When we learn to love others in healthier ways, we learn to love ourselves in healthier ways too; this is a perpetuating process and cannot happen in isolation.  The important presumption to my statement is that you are really working on yourself and using the experiences to grow and change.  

Also, loving another is not necessarily romantic in nature.  It can be; loving a child, caring for an elderly parent etc.  Anything that gets you out of yourself in contact with others in a mutual effort that allows for openness and personal growth.

Take care of yourself and give yourself plenty of room to breathe and space to be wherever you need to be.  Sounds like you are relatively young and have time to keep working at this and have made good progress since your last regular visits here.  Keep it up.

JRB

[Herodias]

I'm here with my cats and dog too! The thing is, I'm ok with it. I would rather be alone than stressed out and afraid. Being yelled at or told what to do... , you have to look at it that way. Watch movies, talk to people here and on the phone. Get into a group, take a class, get a hobby, call old friends, have a weekly dinner plan with family. I work all day with people, so I enjoy my time at night. I'm more afraid I'll choke on a tortilla chip, die  and no one will know/ . That's the part I hate- I'm still better off and the thought of taking care of someone else sets me back from dating. Try to find yourself again like when you were a teenager and weren't interested in dating so much- that's how I look at it. Sorry you had to repeat- they say we repeat until we learn. I see red flags in a minute now. Study the behavior so you don't do it again. That will keep you really busy.

[SoMuchPain]

JRB thank you for your words.  I do agree that relationships are important ... .my problem is that for me, it HAS to be a romantic relationship in order to get meaningful "connection" out of it ... .and in that, something is going on inside of me.  Sure, I have lots of friends and family and coworkers, etc, but for whatever reason I just never feel that connected.  I am working on what that's about.

Gosh Herodias, I do MISS when I didn't care about dating .  I remember that time well.  Then as soon as I had my first relationship, BAM, I was addicted. 

Oddly enough, I missed the behavior in the beginning this time around.  I'd still like to think that I could be love-bombed in the beginning by a non-BPD   I absolutely love that.  I felt on cloud 9.  And oddly enough, I was confused about the behavior once red flags started showing.  I feel like every disordered individual is quite different.  I was presented with behaviors that, while bizarre, I didn't recognize.  Honestly I think my recent ex had large traces of Narcissism as well, and that I've not experienced until now.  I think it was THAT behavior that really ultimately scared me and forced me to run the other way.  I've been painted black before, sure, but verbal abuse alternating the next hour with love sentiments was a new one on me.  My ex's wBPD were nasty sometimes (usually in the end and beyond ... .or when I was being nasty back), but this was a whole nother level.  Random attacks on my character when she didn't get her way.  It was so odd.

Anyway ... .but the point is, healing.  Healing and grieving the loss of another dashed dream, and trying to move forward without feeling a complete void.  Why why why would I feel such a void from someone who wasn't adding much to my life except attention and physical affection?   This is what I'd like to figure out.  I think most would walk away after 4 months and say good riddance.  I sit and dwell on what I could've done differently so that she'd still be here and I wouldn't be alone.  Sad.  Really is.

[eeks]

Hi SoMuchPain,

JRB thank you for your words.  I do agree that relationships are important ... .my problem is that for me, it HAS to be a romantic relationship in order to get meaningful "connection" out of it ... .and in that, something is going on inside of me.  Sure, I have lots of friends and family and coworkers, etc, but for whatever reason I just never feel that connected.  I am working on what that's about.

This is interesting.  I know what "feeling connected" feels like to me, but what is your personal definition?   

I know that friendships, etc. "just aren't the same" as romantic relationships.  And it truly is up to you to determine what it is that will satisfy you, in terms of intimacy.  However, I ask these questions to see if there might be ways available to have more of the types of connection with people that you would like, that you didn't notice before.

Are there more personal or emotionally vulnerable aspects of yourself and your experience that you tend to reveal to relationship partners, but not close friends?  And when a friend reveals something vulnerable to you, how do you feel and how do you respond?  Sometimes limits are appropriate (like with coworkers), and trust is best built over time, so you'd want to take the risk to share more with friends or family members who have already proven themselves trustworthy and empathic in other situations, but it might be worth thinking about.  Disclosing something vulnerable to a friend and receiving a non-judgmental response from them can build intimacy. 

Oddly enough, I missed the behavior in the beginning this time around.  I'd still like to think that I could be love-bombed in the beginning by a non-BPD   I absolutely love that.  I felt on cloud 9.  And oddly enough, I was confused about the behavior once red flags started showing.  I feel like every disordered individual is quite different.  I was presented with behaviors that, while bizarre, I didn't recognize. 

Like joeramabeme alludes to, I think we learn about relationships by being in relationships.  So you can't fault yourself for not recognizing the behaviours, but to me it is a positive sign that your initial response to them was to think they were "bizarre".  That means you noticed something, and provided you continue to do your self-reflection and healing (which it sounds like you're doing), you can learn from this.  Even if the only thing you learn is to both be aware of and trust your gut instincts.

I recently met someone who I got a feeling was unreliable.  It wasn't anything he did, just the way he phrased certain things, the responses to my questions.  The clear message I was getting from myself was not to get too close too soon, and it turns out I was right.  I can't say that I "learned" that from my experience with my uBPD ex, but I was aware of what my "inner voice" was telling me, and I followed it.

Anyway ... .but the point is, healing.  Healing and grieving the loss of another dashed dream, and trying to move forward without feeling a complete void.  Why why why would I feel such a void from someone who wasn't adding much to my life except attention and physical affection?   This is what I'd like to figure out.  I think most would walk away after 4 months and say good riddance.  I sit and dwell on what I could've done differently so that she'd still be here and I wouldn't be alone.  Sad.  Really is.

I don't know if you will feel that this applies to you, but adults who grew up with parents or caregivers who were abusive, neglectful and/or had their own unhealed trauma, tend to choose relationship partners with similar traits, in order to "give the story a happy ending this time".  This might appear on the surface to be behaviour that is not in one's best interest, but it seems to be the mind's way of resolving the issue.

My intense, wrenching emotions after my relationship with a uBPD man were out of proportion (compared to my own past experience) to the brevity of the relationship.  I believe the grief, anger, longing to try to "get him back" were due to the fact that he "lit up" some unconscious stuff in me, somehow related to my parents' traits.  And so when the attempt to "give the story a happy ending" failed... .double grief (from this relationship, and from the childhood stuff).  Which, in my view, is the bad and good news.  The bad news is that it hurts a lot, the good news is that the relationship stirs up all the crud from the past so that it can come into your awareness and be processed towards healing.

eeks

[Lucky Jim]

I'm still better off and the thought of taking care of someone else sets me back from dating. Try to find yourself again like when you were a teenager and weren't interested in dating so much- that's how I look at it

Herodias, Agree, one has to find one's value from within, like a teenager.  Concerning dating, perhaps you can find someone who doesn't require you to care take?  That was one of the criteria I used when I started dating again.  It was a nice surprise to find plenty of kind people out there who are fine on their own and don't need me as their caretaker.  In fact, I'm dating one right now!  

I think most would walk away after 4 months and say good riddance.  I sit and dwell on what I could've done differently so that she'd still be here and I wouldn't be alone.  Sad.  Really is.

SMP: to be honest, it doesn't sound like she was the right person for you, so maybe you need not dwell on your b/u too much?  Time to move forward, I suggest.

LuckyJim

[Herodias]

Herodias, Agree, one has to find one's value from within, like a teenager.  Concerning dating, perhaps you can find someone who doesn't require you to care take?  That was one of the criteria I used when I started dating again.  It was a nice surprise to find plenty of kind people out there who are fine on their own and don't need me as their caretaker.  In fact, I'm dating one right now!  

That is good to know... .I seem to only attract the ones that need help,   I will not allow myself to fall for that anymore!

[SoMuchPain]

This is interesting.  I know what "feeling connected" feels like to me, but what is your personal definition?   

Honestly for me, all non-romantic friends are kinda the same for me.  As long as they're cool and they'll listen to me, I get what I need outta them.  Sounds horrible, but true.  I share A LOT with them, and invite them to share A LOT with me, but I don't get close to them, if that makes any sense.  Like I could go without talking to them for months and that's fine.  I could never do that with someone I'm dating.  So I guess that is the difference in connection.  I kind of latch onto people I date.  Not a great trait, but again, I've obviously got work to do. 

[SoMuchPain]

SMP: to be honest, it doesn't sound like she was the right person for you, so maybe you need not dwell on your b/u too much?  Time to move forward, I suggest.

She wasn't.  I really wanted her to be though.  I think what I'm really dwelling on is the severe disappointment.  She definitely had some of the most important qualities that I need (a strong physical connection, a huge sense of loyalty, gives an enormous amount of attention and affection).  But she was completely lacking in others (any semblance of intelligence, social skills, kindness, unselfishness, maturity, non-abusive would be great  )  So, the choice was obvious.  I'm just so tired of falling for people who aren't the right person for me, if I have to be honest.

[SoMuchPain]

Sorry double post hit the wrong button

[Lucky Jim]

I'm just so tired of falling for people who aren't the right person for me, if I have to be honest.

Well, going forward, you have control over that, right?  Maybe it would help to make a list of what you're looking for, so it will be easier to recognize that person when she comes along?  Wouldn't hurt to make a list of red flags, too, that you would like to avoid.

LuckyJim

[jhkbuzz]

Hi SoMuchPain

Sorry to hear what you are going through but glad you had the courage to come up and share what is going on with you.  I suppose that those of us who are working on overcoming some sort of emotional deficiency find it really hard to sit with being alone.

I think there is something hardwired in the human brain about belonging to a larger group of others - such as a tribe.  Nowadays, we all have our "independence" from one another, which at first seems sweet but can have a cutting edge to it, especially when you need a tribe.

EVERYONE says that I need to be good with being alone, and fall in love with myself so that a relationship is just the icing on the cake.

IMO, the above quote is nonsense.  You don't sit with yourself until you love yourself then find someone.  The FACT is, that we need to be in relationships with others, assimilate what we learn and then go back out and do it again and repeat.  When we learn to love others in healthier ways, we learn to love ourselves in healthier ways too; this is a perpetuating process and cannot happen in isolation.  The important presumption to my statement is that you are really working on yourself and using the experiences to grow and change.  

Also, loving another is not necessarily romantic in nature.  It can be; loving a child, caring for an elderly parent etc.  Anything that gets you out of yourself in contact with others in a mutual effort that allows for openness and personal growth.

Take care of yourself and give yourself plenty of room to breathe and space to be wherever you need to be.  Sounds like you are relatively young and have time to keep working at this and have made good progress since your last regular visits here.  Keep it up.

JRB

"EVERYONE says that I need to be good with being alone, and fall in love with myself so that a relationship is just the icing on the cake."

I think that ^ is specifically referring to being in a romantic relationship - not a suggestion to be alone by cutting yourself off from all of humanity. Because what you say is true - we are social animals and can find love in many different types of relationships.

Having said that, I told my T just yesterday that, for the first time, I'm very very glad that I didn't get into another r/s after my 8 year r/s with a pwBPD ended - even though I've had opportunities. My ex jumped into one immediately, and, to be honest, it always made me feel badly - that she found someone and I was still single. But today? Today I'm actually recognizing the healing that's taking place within me and am grateful to be single right now. If I had jumped into another r/s right away I doubt very much that I would have done the kind of introspective, healing work that I've done in therapy.

The truth is that you do have to be content and happy with yourself before you get into a r/s - because you will offer your content, happy and whole self to a partner. If you come in with a hole in your heart or a neediness in your soul, you are less likely to have a happy, healthy r/s with someone else.

After all, that's exactly what our ex BPD partners do.  

[SoMuchPain]

The truth is that you do have to be content and happy with yourself before you get into a r/s - because you will offer your content, happy and whole self to a partner. If you come in with a hole in your heart or a neediness in your soul, you are less likely to have a happy, healthy r/s with someone else.

After all, that's exactly what our ex BPD partners do.  

Very good point you have there.  That IS exactly what they do.  And ya know what's funny?  The 3 times I have been with a PD partner   -- 3 times ... .   ... .(all 3 ironically lasted about 5 months), were actually times that I went into it with a huge hole in my heart from something prior.  I met them at a time of total neediness in myself and I fell for everything.

The 2 long-term, most healthy relationships I've had?  I was coming off of being single for a while for both of them and, the first one I wasn't even looking when I found her, the 2nd, I was just totally ready to date, emotionally available, and was actually being quite picky at the time because if something didn't work out I was fine with being single at the moment.  Funny how that works.

[SoMuchPain]

I'm just so tired of falling for people who aren't the right person for me, if I have to be honest.

Well, going forward, you have control over that, right?  Maybe it would help to make a list of what you're looking for, so it will be easier to recognize that person when she comes along?  Wouldn't hurt to make a list of red flags, too, that you would like to avoid.

LuckyJim

Oh, I've done the list.  But clearly it needs revision.  Verbal abuse was never a thought in my mind when I first wrote it.   

[Lucky Jim]

Sounds like that -- verbal abuse -- should be at the top of your list of red flags! 

LJ

[SoMuchPain]

Sounds like that -- verbal abuse -- should be at the top of your list of red flags!  

LJ

Yeah it seems like it would be obvious, no?  It's just that, in all my 33 years so far, no one has done that to me.  Like, ever.  I guess I was so taken aback by what was happening, I really didn't even recognize what was happening for about a month.  Finally I put a name to it, and told my ex that the way she was speaking to me was abusive, and to my surprise she admitted that yes she is abusive ... .she did it to her previous ex, but she thought she only did it because she "wasn't that into" her last partner.     (Thinking back on the conversations we'd have, I just don't know what I could've been thinking ... .somehow all I'd hear with that was how into ME she was).  But anyway, she went on to say how confused she was because now she's doing it to me, but she is so in love with me, so she doesn't understand why she's doing it.

Either way, the whole thing was so confusing.  I think I also need to add "confusing" as a red flag.  Just in case someday I come across something new that doesn't feel right, but I can't put my finger on.  

But another part of my issue is, when I see the red flag, I tend to do nothing about it.  I argue it, but so long as the person is working with me, I allow the relationship to continue.  As I think I stated before, this is the first time in my life that I've actually ended something.  And I ended it because of the red flags accumulating.  :)oesn't mean I wasn't still in love.  What I don't understand is why my attraction doesn't wane when all this sh*t becomes apparent?  Here I am almost jealous of her new partner that they are in a relationship and having fun, and I'm here on a forum working on myself.  

[joeramabeme]

it HAS to be a romantic relationship in order to get meaningful "connection" out of it ... .and in that, something is going on inside of me.  Sure, I have lots of friends and family and coworkers, etc, but for whatever reason I just never feel that connected.  I am working on what that's about.

I know that friendships, etc. "just aren't the same" as romantic relationships.  And it truly is up to you to determine what it is that will satisfy you, in terms of intimacy.  However, I ask these questions to see if there might be ways available to have more of the types of connection with people that you would like, that you didn't notice before.

SMP,

Quoting and replying to Eeks questions here as I think they contain some very valuable considerations.

Strong and healthy romances are like great friendships with a physical component.  I raise this point in reference to your later replies in this post about why you keep picking the wrong people and how to heal.   You can practice selecting and developing healthy relationships with friends.  In many ways, close friendships require the same skills as romantic r/s and though the sense of personal connectivity (intimacy) is not at the same level, the dynamics and learning translate very similarly.

Why do you suppose that you do not develop close connections with non-romantic friends?  This answer is likely to contain valuable information about why you pick romantic partners that are unavailable.  Picking romantic partners involves a level of complimentary discernment, each partner assess the other for what they are looking for.  IMO, if you are unable to create a deeper bond with others; potential partners that can create those more durable bonds are likely to avoid you b/c you do not have what they seek.  And just as importantly, those that cannot create that bond (and don't know it) will think you are just fine. 

In summary, why do you think you do not "connect" with others in non-romantic friendships?  Do you think that this translates into picking romantic partners that are similarly, "not connected"? 

FWIW, I too had a hard time with non-romantic "connections" and eventually learned that those feelings were fear driven.  Since the start of addressing this; my romantic and non-romantic r/s' have been more fulfilling and long-lasting and healthier (yes, even my BP r/s was far healthier than what I had previously experienced)

JRB

[Lucky Jim]

Hey SMP, When something is confusing, that's usually your gut telling you that something is out of whack.  If it doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't right for you, regardless whether you can identify the issue in the heat of the moment.  The idea is to start honoring these warning signs when they come up.

Verbal abuse is unacceptable, so no more excuses or justifications going forward.  You leave the room, leave the house, leave the r/s if you have to.  Got it?  When you notice a red flag,  , it's dangerous to do nothing.  Suggest you take action without argument or discussion.  Just put a stop to whatever is bothering you, OK?  Maybe you will need to practice before you get the hang of loving yourself enough that you won't allow yourself ever to be the object of someone else abuse.  Maybe I sound harsh; if so, that's because I learned the hard way in a marriage to a pwBPD.

LuckyJim

[snowwhite]

It took me a long time to learn how to have healthy relationships. What finally opened the way for me was a realization that many of my underlying beliefs about how life should work were incorrect. Some were beliefs that I had taken to an extreme. They were true when coupled with other balancing beliefs, but on their own unbalanced my life. Others were untrue most all the time.

One analogy I read helped a lot. It compared our view of life to a window we are looking through. If we have wrong beliefs, our window distorts the view. Learning to have correct, accurate beliefs is like cleaning the window.

Once I was open to the idea that I had been wrong about some really big ideas, I was much more open to learning. I like to read so sought out the best books I could find on dating and relationships. Were the authors people whose personal lives something I admired? Were they people whose values I agreed with? Were there  additional values required that I needed to acquire but had convinced myself were not important?

I spent time with people who had good long lasting marriages and learned from them practices that worked, ideas that I wanted to incorporate into my life.

I am someone who believes in fixing things. One of the hardest lessons I have learned is that not all broken glass can be glued back together, not all stains can be removed, not all moth holes can be rewoven. Sometimes you have to throw away the old in order to have a place for the new.

Good luck on your journey.

[Lucky Jim]

One of the hardest lessons I have learned is that not all broken glass can be glued back together, not all stains can be removed, not all moth holes can be rewoven. Sometimes you have to throw away the old in order to have a place for the new.

Agree w/that, snow-white.  Some diseases have no cure.  Just the way it is, sad to say.  Moving on, sometimes, is the only path left.

LJ

[jhkbuzz]

It took me a long time to learn how to have healthy relationships. What finally opened the way for me was a realization that many of my underlying beliefs about how life should work were incorrect. Some were beliefs that I had taken to an extreme. They were true when coupled with other balancing beliefs, but on their own unbalanced my life. Others were untrue most all the time.

One analogy I read helped a lot. It compared our view of life to a window we are looking through. If we have wrong beliefs, our window distorts the view. Learning to have correct, accurate beliefs is like cleaning the window.

Once I was open to the idea that I had been wrong about some really big ideas, I was much more open to learning. I like to read so sought out the best books I could find on dating and relationships. Were the authors people whose personal lives something I admired? Were they people whose values I agreed with? Were there  additional values required that I needed to acquire but had convinced myself were not important?

I spent time with people who had good long lasting marriages and learned from them practices that worked, ideas that I wanted to incorporate into my life.

I am someone who believes in fixing things. One of the hardest lessons I have learned is that not all broken glass can be glued back together, not all stains can be removed, not all moth holes can be rewoven. Sometimes you have to throw away the old in order to have a place for the new.

Good luck on your journey.

Would you mind sharing some specifics about the "wrong" beliefs and ideas?

[SoMuchPain]

In summary, why do you think you do not "connect" with others in non-romantic friendships?  Do you think that this translates into picking romantic partners that are similarly, "not connected"? 

FWIW, I too had a hard time with non-romantic "connections" and eventually learned that those feelings were fear driven.  Since the start of addressing this; my romantic and non-romantic r/s' have been more fulfilling and long-lasting and healthier (yes, even my BP r/s was far healthier than what I had previously experienced)

JRB

I honestly have no idea.  I really don't.  I'm an introvert and a bit of a loner.  Sometimes when I'm hanging out with friends I literally feel like I'm doing it just to pass the time, and because I need to, in order to force myself to be social. 

I don't know what the fear is/would be.  It's hard to fix something when I can't put a finger on it.

I have been forcing myself to interact more with friends the past couple years.  I don't know if it's helping or not.  I can see where you say that healthy people wouldn't go near me.  Most the women I see that have their sh*t together don't seem to give me the time of day.  It's always been like that.  I never really understood it, as I'm attractive and successful as well as they are.  On the surface, seems like it'd make sense.  It doesn't seem to for them.

[SoMuchPain]

Verbal abuse is unacceptable, so no more excuses or justifications going forward.  You leave the room, leave the house, leave the r/s if you have to.  Got it?  When you notice a red flag,  , it's dangerous to do nothing.  Suggest you take action without argument or discussion.  Just put a stop to whatever is bothering you, OK?  Maybe you will need to practice before you get the hang of loving yourself enough that you won't allow yourself ever to be the object of someone else abuse.  Maybe I sound harsh; if so, that's because I learned the hard way in a marriage to a pwBPD.

No, I completely agree.  She's verbally abusive even as a friend who texts me here and there still.  I am actively cutting her off.  Leaving the relationship was my #1 concern however, and while I do miss the idea of her, when I actually talk to her, I don't miss her at all.  Somehow over the years I have gotten healthy enough to say no to things that bother me.

[SoMuchPain]

Jim,

Though I think one of my biggest issues is exactly how to say no to red flags.  Like the first time I noticed it I thought maybe she was just having a bad day or something, or was confused, I'm unsure.  

When I started really noticing that abuse was occurring, I didn't immediately think "end it".  Is that where I go wrong?  No, my immediate thought was ... .argue (my go-to, unfortunately), bring it up, and verbalize that I won't tolerate it again.  Of course I got a wholehearted apology.  And then when it happened again, I cut it off.

What then ensued was my fault ... .a month more of apologies from her, and second and third and fourth chances from me.

I finally really cut it off at like the 7th chance.

I guess my question is, no second chances?  Is that how it's supposed to work?  Or maybe the answer is what I really know to be true ... no 3rd, 4th, and 5th etc chances ... .

[joeramabeme]

I don't know what the fear is/would be.  It's hard to fix something when I can't put a finger on it.

SMP -

What is it that you are looking for in your romantic connections?  Can you qualify it, describe it or identify the associated feelings with the thought of it?  For me, my romantic and non-romantic connections provide me with a sense of belonging, being cared about it, someone that I can care for, fitting into the flow of life and having a place in the world.  I haven't thought about it deeply, but these are some things that come to top of mind. 

Perhaps if you can identify what you seek in romantic r/s' you can begin to cultivate the same types of outcomes in non-romantic r/s' and see how you respond when your heart isn't on the line.

I ask these questions because there is likely some valuable information in the question that can lead to deeper understanding of some of your questions regarding selection of partners.

JRB

[SoMuchPain]

SMP -

What is it that you are looking for in your romantic connections?  Can you qualify it, describe it or identify the associated feelings with the thought of it?  For me, my romantic and non-romantic connections provide me with a sense of belonging, being cared about it, someone that I can care for, fitting into the flow of life and having a place in the world.  I haven't thought about it deeply, but these are some things that come to top of mind. 

Perhaps if you can identify what you seek in romantic r/s' you can begin to cultivate the same types of outcomes in non-romantic r/s' and see how you respond when your heart isn't on the line.

I ask these questions because there is likely some valuable information in the question that can lead to deeper understanding of some of your questions regarding selection of partners.

Well, I'm looking for someone who makes me feel alive.  Someone who just makes my cells dance, so to speak, and makes me feel weak in the knees with giddiness when I look at them.  Someone to get to snuggle everyday (affection is important to me).  Someone who can plan for the future with me.  Someone to possibly have a child with. 

Can you maybe see why it's hard for me to get this same feeling of what I'm looking for out of a platonic friendship? 

[valet]

Well, I'm looking for someone who makes me feel alive.  Someone who just makes my cells dance, so to speak, and makes me feel weak in the knees with giddiness when I look at them.  Someone to get to snuggle everyday (affection is important to me).  Someone who can plan for the future with me.  Someone to possibly have a child with. 

Can you maybe see why it's hard for me to get this same feeling of what I'm looking for out of a platonic friendship? 

Hey SoMuchPain, that sounds like a pretty whimsical description of what you're looking for in a partner.

What do you think the *actual* qualities of a person that could make you feel that way are?

[Lucky Jim]

I guess my question is, no second chances?  Is that how it's supposed to work?  Or maybe the answer is what I really know to be true ... no 3rd, 4th, and 5th etc chances ... .

Hey SMP, I'm reluctant to give a hard and fast rule, because everyone's situation is a little different, though I will say the earlier the better.  Let your gut be your guide.  Why should you take abuse?  Presumably none of us should, though we Nons on this site we have probably taken far more that was healthy for us.  I think there's a risk that, once you allow yourself to be the object of abuse, it's likely to recur.  If the abuser is a pwBPD, then I would say it's almost certain to recur.  Just the way it is w/BPD, in my view.

LuckyJim