Sister outbursts

[caughtnreleased]

It seems my sister is becoming more and more like my uBPD mom.  So today I was out with my sister and her younger kids. When I am alone with her kids, things go great between us. When she,s around, her kids cling to her, don't want to talk or see or touch me, and are generally not nice to me. She sees it and says nothing.  This was going on for over an hour when I finally told her that I was not enjoying myself that her kids weren't being nice to me and she was allowing it.  She told me if I didn't like it I could leave.  Then had a mild rage-y like episode with me, then turned to her kids - to whom she had given no indication they were misbehaving, that I was leaving because I was mad at them for misbehaving. I then looked at them, and told them that I was upset because they didn't want to play with me, and that we would play another time when they wanted to be nicer with me.  They looked genuinely worried and upset.  I find it terrible that she put her own kids in the middle of this conflict like that.  They are so young and vulnerable, and the fact she would be manipulative and blame her kids like that is something that is very upsetting.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Caughnreleased,

It makes me sad to hear of the triangulation that your sister is doing with the children. 

I think of my own experiences growing up with an uBPDm and how behind the scene she would say terrible things about family members. That led to her putting the fear of God into us if we ever had anything to do with them. Do you think that may be why when they are with your sister that they're making sure they 'obey' her, but when she is not there they can be themselves and relax?

https://bpdfamily.com/parenting/08.htm Here is a link about the Karpman drama triangle.

Wools

[caughtnreleased]

Hi Woolspinner,

Yes I think that is very much what is going on which is why I addressed her. To top it off she is increasingly creating a dynamic where she needs to leave me out of what is going on. With my parents she will plan holidays, and family gatherings, but she won't include me in the planning.  They'll just "inform" me of the plans later on - at some point the "plans" even conflicted with my own event to which I had invited them, and they yelled at me saying that I hadn't invited them. More recently she and her family and my parents went away on vacation - they never told me their plans, or anything, or tried to include me.  This is the dynamic she wants to create with her children.  I have made special efforts to create a relationship with her kids, and I think she is envious and jealous of it.  It feels like these are the only sentiments she has ever had towards me. Unfortunately I don't know what to do about it, however yesterday I decided that I would no longer let it go unchecked and told her what was bothering me. I was not surprised by her reaction, however, during her mini rag-ey incident she did stoop extremely low, to a point where even I didn't think she would go.  For me I am just worried about my relationship with her kids.  I want to keep seeing them and spending time with them  Can this be done if my relationship with my sister is so limited? She seems to frequently threaten my parents with cutting them off from the grandchildren as well. It's all very sad because it is the children who will suffer the most from this. 

[busybee1116]

Maybe I'm reading into this and not exactly your question, but one thing I've noticed about the pwBPD in my life is they HATE being embarrassed or corrected, particularly if there is an audience. Pointing out her kids' behavior (and the way you did it seems reasonable--to a reasonable person) was probably taken as criticism of her parenting (or her behavior because pwBPD can't tell where they end and others begin). Her reaction is shame, rejecting you ("leave then" and then blaming her kids. And goodness knows what she says/does to them when there is no audience. I agree with Wools, maybe they act differently because they have to. My point--protect those kids. With people like your sis, if you can, choose when you bring up subjects that could be taken as critical. Set boundaries and hold them, even if you don't announce why. My uBPDmom has figured out that the telephone call, visit, line of conversation ends if she wanders into off-limits territory. I don't have to tell her (because that would backfire), I just behave consistently. Like Pavlov's dog. She gets more positive reinforcement for good behavior and NO (not negative, no--medium chill)  reinforcement for bad behavior. If you're not comfortable/enjoying yourself, just end the time together. I have a million excuses planned when stuff like this happens that are less threatening to the pwBPD. They often are not reasonable people so an excuse works.

I forgot I have to get to the bank by 3pm

I think I left the hose on... .I better go

I need to check with neighbor/work/husband (quick private call)... .I'm sorry, I have to go

I'm not feeling great, I'm going home to rest--can I call you later?

I hope that helps

[busybee1116]

Hi Woolspinner,

Yes I think that is very much what is going on which is why I addressed her. To top it off she is increasingly creating a dynamic where she needs to leave me out of what is going on. With my parents she will plan holidays, and family gatherings, but she won't include me in the planning.  They'll just "inform" me of the plans later on - at some point the "plans" even conflicted with my own event to which I had invited them, and they yelled at me saying that I hadn't invited them. More recently she and her family and my parents went away on vacation - they never told me their plans, or anything, or tried to include me.  This is the dynamic she wants to create with her children... .I want to keep seeing them and spending time with them  Can this be done if my relationship with my sister is so limited? She seems to frequently threaten my parents with cutting them off from the grandchildren as well. It's all very sad because it is the children who will suffer the most from this.  

As to this question... .she holds the keys to the kids. You may have to ingratiate yourself with her to get time with them. If you can phrase it as a positive, might help? Rather than: you never let me spend time with the kids or the kids are weird when you're around, how about I'd love to give you and hubby a break, how about I take the kids for the day so you two can have some time to yourselves! Let me know what other days you need a hand and maybe I can pitch in for a few hours here and there. Parenting is a hard job and I have no idea how you do it full time, I can imagine you need a day off here and there. Or something along those lines. As for feeling left out of family stuff, any way you can be more proactive? Send a group email with your schedule for holidays and your goal to spend it with everyone, you don't want to miss cooking turkey with mom and baking cookies with your sister.  

[caughtnreleased]

Maybe I'm reading into this and not exactly your question, but one thing I've noticed about the pwBPD in my life is they HATE being embarrassed or corrected, particularly if there is an audience. Pointing out her kids' behavior (and the way you did it seems reasonable--to a reasonable person) was probably taken as criticism of her parenting (or her behavior because pwBPD can't tell where they end and others begin). Her reaction is shame, rejecting you ("leave then" and then blaming her kids. And goodness knows what she says/does to them when there is no audience. I agree with Wools, maybe they act differently because they have to. My point--protect those kids. With people like your sis, if you can, choose when you bring up subjects that could be taken as critical. Set boundaries and hold them, even if you don't announce why. My uBPDmom has figured out that the telephone call, visit, line of conversation ends if she wanders into off-limits territory. I don't have to tell her (because that would backfire), I just behave consistently. Like Pavlov's dog. She gets more positive reinforcement for good behavior and NO (not negative, no--medium chill)  reinforcement for bad behavior. If you're not comfortable/enjoying yourself, just end the time together. I have a million excuses planned when stuff like this happens that are less threatening to the pwBPD. They often are not reasonable people so an excuse works.

I forgot I have to get to the bank by 3pm

I think I left the hose on... .I better go

I need to check with neighbor/work/husband (quick private call)... .I'm sorry, I have to go

I'm not feeling great, I'm going home to rest--can I call you later?

I hope that helps

Hi this is very helpful.  Thank you for your suggestions. I understand the "being subtle" piece without picking a fight and can see the value in it, so thank you! I will definitely keep it in mind.  As a follow-up,  It seems like my sister ran straight to my parents and told them I had left. I spoke to them today and they are completely and totally in agreement with me (this is a first in my lifetime actually - my mother has never taken sides with me vs my sister).  It felt a bit weird but it happened.  Anyway, I do feel better about it. 

About the leaving part without telling them why, I guess the only thing is that no one seems to say that there is anything wrong with the behaviour that my sister is encouraging.  My parents are walking on eggshells because of the threat of their grandchildren being taken away.  So they are afraid to say anything. So my worry is how will the children understand that there is anything wrong with what is going on? I don't know how they would have reacted if I left without a good reason? I feel like I am the only person who stands up and says: "this is not nice behaviour. I am leaving and I will come back when you will be feeling better and we can have fun together" and I feel like this is a good thing for the children.  I am increasingly worried about them because it looks like their family dynamics are really quite rotten.

[caughtnreleased]

Also, about those kids, I'm starting to wonder if they are not already suffering.  I once had my niece over at my house and she made a ton of drawings and she told me she would give them to me.  Then my sister came over to pick her up and at some point she shows my sister her drawings, and tells my sister she can have them all. I was surprised and looked at my niece and she flashed me an incredibly malicious smile... .looks like triangulation can me learned as early as 4 1/2 years old.  I'M worried about those kids.  But realize my powers are quite limited.  It makes me sad.

[caughtnreleased]

Does anyone have insights about child behaviours and BPD dynamics? I'm quite worried about my sisters children.  In addition when I was explaining to the children why I was leaving (after my sister told me to leave if I wasn't happy), they both looked very worried.  However, as I was expressing to them that I was hurt, my niece turned her head away from me, and she smiled, perhaps hoping I wouldn't see it? then when she stopped smiling she looked at me again with a worried look.  I really don't know what to think, and am worried about these kids being put through all the same things I was put through as a child by my uBPD mom.  and maybe a bit worse. It looks like my brother in law has some serious attachment problems as well, and he uses his kids to soothe himself.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Caughtnreleased,

It is a good thing that you wish to be an advocate with your nieces and nephews. No matter how dysfunctional their lives, if you are a stable person, even in the background of their lives, it may be very important in the long run. Unfortunately there isn't much you can step in and do to change things. You can however work at establishing boundaries to protect yourself.

In my own life, many years down the road after my uBPDm's toxic influence, I was able to re-connect with my aunts. It is playing out in my life and that of my siblings even this week with the auction of my dad's estate coming on Saturday. All of our aunts and uncles will be there to support us. If I had been able to look in a crystal ball 20-40 years ago, I would never have imagined that my siblings and I would've had the loving support of anyone around us. A good part of this has been the willingness in my own heart to heal from the wounds of the past and to seek reconciliation from the fracturing of our family.

All that to encourage you to hang in there. Life doesn't exist in a vacuum. They'll have needs that cry out to be met, and one day, you may be one of the instruments to offer healing to them.

A great book that may bring some help to you as you view the situation is Surviving a Borderline Parent by Kimberlee Roth and Freda Friedman. Have you read it? There are great 'take aways' about what a child tends to take away from the behaviours of being raised by a BPD parent.

That being said, how's your own healing coming along?

 
Wools

[caughtnreleased]

Hi Woolspinner,
Thanks for the advice and the perspective.  You are right... .none of these events are in a vacuum.  My sister has made a conciliatory gesture towards me. No mention of the incident or of what might have happened but I guess I'll have to take what I can from her.
My healing is a work in progress.  I feel I have come a very long ways, but one never really knows.  I still have some bad habits, namely that I am overly independent, and have a lot of difficulty trusting people, or even relying on them for a number of reasons. This has really caused me a lot of problems and isolation and I need to somehow break through that. I'm chipping away at it slowly, and have managed to seek out support of friends recently when I have needed it.  I can't help but feel like a complete burden though when I do receive help from others, so it's something I really need to learn how to manage.  It's like I defined myself as the polar opposite of the people in my family with borderline traits because I saw them and found them so dysfunctional so went towards the opposite.  I guess I need to somehow learn to find where the happy middle ground is in all of this, where I can ask and receive help without feeling like I'm a burden on others.

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY caughtnreleased:

   I guess I need to somehow learn to find where the happy middle ground is in all of this, where I can ask and receive help without feeling like I'm a burden on others.

When you ask for help, in the form of advice, it can be amazing where the diversity of thought from multiple people can lead you.

One approach with asking for help from a friend or neighbor, is to do something nice back, when someone helps you out.  It isn't necessary to do so every time. Perhaps, you might want to barter occasionally.  If you have a hard time finding something to reciprocate with, you can send a thank you card, gift, offer of a meal, etc.

 

[Panda39]

Hi caughtnreleased,

I'm on these boards because my SO has an uBPDxw and daughters, so in a way I'm in a similar position, close to but not a parent to the kids.  I've felt very much like you have, caring and wanting to help but not feeling able to do so.  When I first arrived here I was very angry and frustrated with the girl's mother and for that matter the girls themselves they were being used as weapons against their father and there was parental alienation going on and I could not understand how they didn't see what was right in front of them.

I agree with what others here have said, remember the kids are kids and this is their mother... .their BPD mother and they have to do what they have to do to have that relationship and try to get their needs met.  Is it healthy? normal? okay? No but it is what they have to do.

When I first arrived here Matt one of the members here gave me a really good piece of advice and that was to stop focusing on what mom was doing and focus on the kids.  So I'm passing that on to you.  Focus on developing your own relationship with her kids and enjoy your time with them when you have it and remember that they have to negotiate their mother's disorder too.  It sounds like things are good when you have them on your own and I would trust in that relationship even if that are acting like brats when they are with their mom.  These kids need every healthy adult in their life that they can to show them a healthier way to live, behave, and have relationships.

My SO's daughters are now 15 and 19 they have come to realize that their mother has mental health issues and both have been deeply hurt by some of the actions of their mother.  It took learning the hard way but they now understand their mom has issues.  Both girls have had their own struggles but they have a dad they can rely on and other family and friends who are supportive of them.  D15 is low contact with her mom... .texts and phone calls and D19 is very low to no contact with her mom. Unfortunately that is what it is so they can keep the dysfunction and yes abuse at a minimum.

Focus on the kids, spend time with them as you can, and be that normal person in their life that shows them another way.

I also wanted to comment on asking for help, I also had issues with that for a long time.  I've come to realize that my inability to to ask for help came from having a mother that made me feel stupid for asking or that I was somehow weak to ask when I was younger, she could be quite invalidating.  I internalized those messages and as an adult stayed in a co-dependent marriage for almost 20 years because I couldn't ask for help and felt that if I did I wouldn't receive it.  So maybe look back to when you were growing up what were the messages you received when you asked for help?  Then get vulnerable and ask someone you trust for help with something and see where it takes you.  If you're like me you will begin to see who are the supportive people in your life are and who might not be.

Take Care,
Panda39